There is a complete lack of evidence that mercenary heroes provide any REAL advantage. Having more build variety, or making something take slightly less time is not a valid reason to make this change. If it allowed people to speed clear or was faster then even a 2 player/6 hero party, then yes, people can buy an advantage.
Right now people are getting upset for no reason.
/Not signed
EDIT: I see a lot of claims about advantages, even with numbers, yet 0 evidence to support them. If you make a claim, back it up.
PS - The only thing I have/will ever buy from the cash shop is the bonus mission pack.
Hero Profession Limit
Sk8tborderx
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx
Having more build variety, or making something take slightly less time is not a valid reason to make this change.
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@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party
If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain.
Shayne Hawke
Having an advantage would imply that you know that team build X, which contains more of one profession than are available through default heroes + one character, is better than every build Y which holds this limitation. I doubt you could prove such a thing to me or that such a thing necessarily exists. Even if you could find such a build, I questions how much better it would necessarily be than the best of builds Y.
Long story short, players are paying to have more options to play with, not necessarily more power. Plus, it would probably not be okay to renege and suddenly start taking features away from people that they paid for.
/notsigned
Long story short, players are paying to have more options to play with, not necessarily more power. Plus, it would probably not be okay to renege and suddenly start taking features away from people that they paid for.
/notsigned
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
Long story short, players are paying to have more options to play with, not necessarily more power.
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Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
And why not? For both these things. Even if mercenaries do not make it so that you spend slightly less time doing something, why shouldn't having more build variety be a valid reason?
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Quote:
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@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain. |
Jeydra
So if I provide an option in the cash shop where you can buy a ninth skill to bring into battle, I get more options, and it's perfectly fair?
You provide no evidence to support your claims either, fyi. But I can show you this: http://img251.imageshack.us/f/gw724.jpg/
Let me go through the list of excuses you'll come up with why this doesn't matter, I've seen them all:
1. Pom is way above average as a player (aka. Pom did a lot of micro, and I don't like micro)
2. DoA is not a representative area.
3. Pom used Shadow Form.
4. Pom used consumables.
5. I don't care what other people run, I care about what I run.
Advantage doesn't exist
You provide no evidence to support your claims either, fyi. But I can show you this: http://img251.imageshack.us/f/gw724.jpg/
Let me go through the list of excuses you'll come up with why this doesn't matter, I've seen them all:
1. Pom is way above average as a player (aka. Pom did a lot of micro, and I don't like micro)
2. DoA is not a representative area.
3. Pom used Shadow Form.
4. Pom used consumables.
5. I don't care what other people run, I care about what I run.
Advantage doesn't exist
Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
So if I provide an option in the cash shop where you can buy a ninth skill to bring into battle, I get more options, and it's perfectly fair?
|
Quote:
| You provide no evidence to support your claims either, fyi. But I can show you this: http://img251.imageshack.us/f/gw724.jpg/ |
Quote:
|
Let me go through the list of excuses you'll come up with why this doesn't matter, I've seen them all: 1. Pom is way above average as a player (aka. Pom did a lot of micro, and I don't like micro) 2. DoA is not a representative area. 3. Pom used Shadow Form. 4. Pom used consumables. 5. I don't care what other people run, I care about what I run. Advantage doesn't exist
|
Your list of excuses doesn't even have any part in this debate. 1 screen shot with no comparisons proves nothing. It is no different then claiming that x profession is overpowered and then showing a screen shot of said profession standing over my dead body as proof. Obviously no one will listen to what I say because the screen shot doesn't show anything other then me being dead.
Jeydra
Lol. The only reason I didn't include "but there's nothing to compare to" in my list of excuses is because it's completely idiotic. Anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes.
If you can get a screenshot of a DoA FR without using mercenaries that's faster than 2 hours 15 minutes, post it. If you can't, please acknowledge that the screenshot proves the mercenary advantage and shut up. Or are you placing the burden of getting something to compare to on me as well? That's fine actually ... I'll just start a DoA full run and go AFK for a day at the beginning.
PS: Here's something more for you to consider. http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/520/gw734.jpg WTS idiots in Sardelac, hm ...
PPS: You're making the claim that being able to use 9 skill slots gives an advantage. Well, the burden of proof lies with you. Prove it.
If you can get a screenshot of a DoA FR without using mercenaries that's faster than 2 hours 15 minutes, post it. If you can't, please acknowledge that the screenshot proves the mercenary advantage and shut up. Or are you placing the burden of getting something to compare to on me as well? That's fine actually ... I'll just start a DoA full run and go AFK for a day at the beginning.
PS: Here's something more for you to consider. http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/520/gw734.jpg WTS idiots in Sardelac, hm ...
PPS: You're making the claim that being able to use 9 skill slots gives an advantage. Well, the burden of proof lies with you. Prove it.
Improvavel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
@Improvavel - 1 player + mercs + 5% damage boost isn't the most powerful team in the game either. Why not allow it then: buy an item that grants a 5% damage boost, on condition you have at least 6 heroes in your party
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In most places humans will be slower.
Still a 5% damage increase clearly gives a mechanical advantage - a merc hero acts like any other hero - any advantage it might give comes from the fact its profession being superior to other professions (and the fact melee AI sucks).
Quote:
| If you don't think a player being able to use 3 Mesmers vs. a player who can only use 2 Mesmers isn't an advantage, I haven't anything to say. And don't mention getting a second player, because if you do I'll argue that we should remove heroes entirely and you can go find another 7 humans, nothing lost, so don't complain. |
I'm with my friend so I can use 4 mesmer heroes (2 each) in the party and it is all fine.
My friend logs out, then I can only use 2 mesmer heroes because if I use 4 it is imbalanced?
Regarding the Pom Pom run.
1) Shadow Form - the still ubber imbalanced skill that makes AoE exponentially stronger - remove it and similar skills and then ask Pom Pom or either human teams to do those ultra fast DoA runs.
If I was someone that actually cared about that shit I bet some Necromancers with Feast of Corruption could be used to similar effect without that much efficiency lost.
2) Using DoA as the baseline for balance - DoA (especially the HM version of it) is one of the most broken places in the game!
3) I would like to see a build using merc heroes without shadow form or one of its ilk being considerably faster than one build using regular heroes.
Jeydra
Quote:
| My friend logs out, then I can only use 2 mesmer heroes because if I use 4 it is imbalanced? |
You are welcome to try with Feast of Corruption Necros replacing Mesmers. If you don't care enough to try (which I'm sorely tempted to read as "I'm not good enough, so I'm not about to attempt it"), then please shut up. You asked for evidence and got it. Don't come up with reasons why the evidence isn't valid without showing some effort at acquiring evidence of your own.
And lol, I predicted all three of the points you mentioned about the "Pom Pom run".
Improvavel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Because unless you purchase mercenaries you can't use 4. Mercenary heroes do not act like any other hero. You only have two Mesmers. After that you can run Necros or Monks or whatever wannabe Mesmers, but they aren't Mesmers and do not act like them. This really is obvious.
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Quote:
| You are welcome to try with Feast of Corruption Necros replacing Mesmers. If you don't care enough to try (which I'm sorely tempted to read as "I'm not good enough, so I'm not about to attempt it"), then please shut up. |
The problem lie in Shadow Form and its ability to over aggro.
Quote:
| And lol, I predicted all three of the points you mentioned about the "Pom Pom run". |
And it wasn't very hard to predict those points - after all I've posted them before in the thread where the pom pom run debuted.
Unfortunately, you that do care about these things, don't have 2 merc slots - you would see that without a tanking skill those times are untouchable.
That is why no one has been able to post screen shots as fast as those from pom pom even when they use 4 mesmer heroes but no shadow form.
It is also a shame no other incredible runs from somewhere else also appeared with the exception of DoA.
But maybe one of these days I'll give it a try, when I'm bored - after all I've an assassin although I haven't finished nightfall with him.
Jeydra
And that matters how? We're discussing mercenary heroes, not Shadow Form.
I could give more examples, but I'm hard pressed to find a reason to bother. This reminds me of trying to prove that BDSM is subpar. BDSM supporters will find reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever, and will never admit they're wrong. This is developing the same way. Despite the evidence that mercenary heroes provide an in-game advantage, you come up with reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever. Instead of picking on mercenary heroes, let's pick on Shadow Form instead yeah? All the while never coming up with your own evidence, too ...
I could give more examples, but I'm hard pressed to find a reason to bother. This reminds me of trying to prove that BDSM is subpar. BDSM supporters will find reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever, and will never admit they're wrong. This is developing the same way. Despite the evidence that mercenary heroes provide an in-game advantage, you come up with reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever. Instead of picking on mercenary heroes, let's pick on Shadow Form instead yeah? All the while never coming up with your own evidence, too ...
Improvavel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
And that matters how? We're discussing mercenary heroes, not Shadow Form.
I could give more examples, but I'm hard pressed to find a reason to bother. This reminds me of trying to prove that BDSM is subpar. BDSM supporters will find reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever, and will never admit they're wrong. This is developing the same way. Despite the evidence that mercenary heroes provide an in-game advantage, you come up with reason after reason why the evidence isn't sufficient or representative or whatever. Instead of picking on mercenary heroes, let's pick on Shadow Form instead yeah? All the while never coming up with your own evidence, too ... |
And my own evidence is simple.
If mercenary mesmer heroes provide mechanical advantage, then why do 3 mesmer heroes in a 2 player party doesn't?
Explain me.
Explain me why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't?
Explain me why a 8 human party can choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't.
If you can explain me that I'll shut up. If you don't then please shut up yourself.
Perkunas
The argument being offered is having more options is an unfair advantage. What about the people that bought the GotY edition vs those that didn't? It gives you max weapons and an imp in starter areas. These are also more options that none are arguing against.
Lasai
Oh OH lets remove all paid for advantages from DoA!!
Please disable all non NF skills and heros..also any non NF consumables..
Its just so not fair to have to buy all those other games and expansion just to do a NF instance as fast as people that did.
QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ
Oh and disable non NF armor too, its an "advantage" to look better.
Please disable all non NF skills and heros..also any non NF consumables..
Its just so not fair to have to buy all those other games and expansion just to do a NF instance as fast as people that did.
QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ
Oh and disable non NF armor too, its an "advantage" to look better.
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
I already said mercenary heroes provide more options and that is an advantage. But they don't provide a mechanical advantage.
And my own evidence is simple. If mercenary mesmer heroes provide mechanical advantage, then why do 3 mesmer heroes in a 2 player party doesn't? Explain me. Explain me why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't? Explain me why a 8 human party can choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't. If you can explain me that I'll shut up. If you don't then please shut up yourself. |
And I'm shutting up because this thread is getting idiotic.
Essence Snow
Just another lil tid bit for ya'lls consideration...
I do not have merch heros but my friend does......we together exploit his heros to full potential all over the game.
How do you ask?......You know that abiltiy that SF has to hold massive aggro? You know the massive AoE spikes mesmers are capable of?
I run SF tank.....all I do is worry about balling aggro and staying alive. My buddy uses his merch mesmer team to spike the holy Toledo out of them.
The combination of 2 players using merch heros in this manner allows for almost no microing and making most of GW rediculously easy.
For those saying well you could bring mesmers heros too....obviously you have never tanked and tried to micro heros for a spike. The set up is simply not possible without merchs for a 2 person team.
I do not have merch heros but my friend does......we together exploit his heros to full potential all over the game.
How do you ask?......You know that abiltiy that SF has to hold massive aggro? You know the massive AoE spikes mesmers are capable of?
I run SF tank.....all I do is worry about balling aggro and staying alive. My buddy uses his merch mesmer team to spike the holy Toledo out of them.
The combination of 2 players using merch heros in this manner allows for almost no microing and making most of GW rediculously easy.
For those saying well you could bring mesmers heros too....obviously you have never tanked and tried to micro heros for a spike. The set up is simply not possible without merchs for a 2 person team.
Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Just another lil tid bit for ya'lls consideration...
I do not have merch heros but my friend does......we together exploit his heros to full potential all over the game. How do you ask?......You know that abiltiy that SF has to hold massive aggro? You know the massive AoE spikes mesmers are capable of? I run SF tank.....all I do is worry about balling aggro and staying alive. My buddy uses his merch mesmer team to spike the holy Toledo out of them. The combination of 2 players using merch heros in this manner allows for almost no microing and making most of GW rediculously easy. For those saying well you could bring mesmers heros too....obviously you have never tanked and tried to micro heros for a spike. The set up is simply not possible without merchs for a 2 person team. |
There is still a severe lack of evidence to back up any claims that mercenary heroes provide an advantage. 2 tests, both with mercenary heroes proves nothing. Might as well say god exists because the bible says so, the argument is retarded. This is pretty basic stuff.
Essence Snow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx
You can set up hot keys for your heroes, it isn't that hard. You could also accomplish this with 3 RoJ monks, 2 mesmers, channeling rit, and whatever else you want. The only requirement is knowing how to abuse the mob AI by balling enemies on a corner.
There is still a severe lack of evidence to back up any claims that mercenary heroes provide an advantage. 2 tests, both with mercenary heroes proves nothing. Might as well say god exists because the bible says so, the argument is retarded. This is pretty basic stuff. |
If you are unaware of why mesmers are great hero spikers.......maybe by reading skill descriptions, knowing that they have armor ignoring dmg, don't cause scatter, and benefit from fast casting one might be able to put 2+2 together and come to that realization for themself.
Where's any...ANY evidence that they do not provide an advantage? I am fully aware of what they provide...and I abuse it. I am fully aware of the advantage SF provides...and I abuse it. I know these things because I have used them numerous times in numerous areas....I have also tried using other hero AoE teams.....none of which are on par with mes-spike.
Have you even tried it?
Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
You still have to micro them...via flagging and your hotkeys. Using the merchs and seperate sf tank all the person that has the merchs has to do is ping a target...that's all...nothing else and all the tank has to do is ball aggro and stay alive (no need for corners)...If you can't see how blatently easier that is...I'm sry I can't help you.
|
Quote:
| If you are unaware of why mesmers are great hero spikers.......maybe by reading skill descriptions, knowing that they have armor ignoring dmg, don't cause scatter, and benefit from fast casting one might be able to put 2+2 together and come to that realization for themself. |
Quote:
| Where's any...ANY evidence that they do not provide an advantage? I am fully aware of what they provide...and I abuse it. I am fully aware of the advantage SF provides...and I abuse it. I know these things because I have used them numerous times in numerous areas....I have also tried using other hero AoE teams.....none of which are on par with mes-spike. |
Quote:
| Have you even tried it? |
I am just tired of threads popping up with people complaining about mercenary heroes giving an advantage for money and not providing any evidence to support their claims. It APPEARS to be simple jealousy.
Jeydra
I wasn't going to post, but this really caught my eye.
Get this: I don't really PvE, but I'm going to comment anyway.
And lol, keep asking for proof when I've given you two screenshots. Where is your counter-proof? Where is your screenshot showing that these times can be matched without mercenaries? Or are you just going to keep talking?
So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx
Mercenary heroes don't affect me at all, I don't really PvE, and when I do I am usually soloing. I have also mentioned previously that the only thing I have purchased in the store is the bonus mission pack.
|
And lol, keep asking for proof when I've given you two screenshots. Where is your counter-proof? Where is your screenshot showing that these times can be matched without mercenaries? Or are you just going to keep talking?
So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa.
LexTalionis
Two screenshots is not equal to proof.
Screenshots are evidence. You use evidence to support a hypothesis, which you then use as a basis for your theory. The nature of evidence can be debated, as has been done in this thread - where other people have used the evidence you presented to demonstrate an alternative hypothesis, which you have not conclusively refuted.
I'm neutral in this debate, as I couldn't really care less about the topic, but your attacks on logic in this thread offend my sensibilities. For example:
Your argument is this:
1)Many people that favour PvP look down on people that favour PvE (unsubstantiated fact)
2)When these people discuss PvE, they present risible opinions (unsubstantiated opinion)
3)Conclusion - Therefore, all people that favour PvP have no valid opinions about PvE and therefore should not present any. (Logical plummet off a cliff)
Is liking PvE and PvP even mutually exclusive?
Please tell me why I should take you seriously if this is representative of a valid logical argument from you. My theory is:
1) Your argument above is untenable as it relies on too many inappropriate logical fallacies (ad hominem, poisoning the well, ad hoc to name just three. I could go on, but this isn't the right place).
2) Either you believe your argument valid, in which case your grasp of logic is slightly flawed, or you are arguing entirely based on rhetoric as opposed to logic.
My opinion in #2 is the latter. As I don't value rhetoric very highly, I shall not value your opinion.
Screenshots are evidence. You use evidence to support a hypothesis, which you then use as a basis for your theory. The nature of evidence can be debated, as has been done in this thread - where other people have used the evidence you presented to demonstrate an alternative hypothesis, which you have not conclusively refuted.
I'm neutral in this debate, as I couldn't really care less about the topic, but your attacks on logic in this thread offend my sensibilities. For example:
Quote:
| So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa. |
1)Many people that favour PvP look down on people that favour PvE (unsubstantiated fact)
2)When these people discuss PvE, they present risible opinions (unsubstantiated opinion)
3)Conclusion - Therefore, all people that favour PvP have no valid opinions about PvE and therefore should not present any. (Logical plummet off a cliff)
Is liking PvE and PvP even mutually exclusive?
Please tell me why I should take you seriously if this is representative of a valid logical argument from you. My theory is:
1) Your argument above is untenable as it relies on too many inappropriate logical fallacies (ad hominem, poisoning the well, ad hoc to name just three. I could go on, but this isn't the right place).
2) Either you believe your argument valid, in which case your grasp of logic is slightly flawed, or you are arguing entirely based on rhetoric as opposed to logic.
My opinion in #2 is the latter. As I don't value rhetoric very highly, I shall not value your opinion.
Ghull Ka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Black Metal
limiting and restricting otherwise fully functional and properly operating mechanics just cuz is kinda lame
so......./notsigned |
Next up: I've purchased extra storage panes from the store, but you've got a suggestion that says I can't put non-customized things in them. Ya know, so I don't have an advantage.
Tellya what, I've got a solution for the OP and other folks who are bummed out by merc heroes. Buy a couple. Send Anet some cash.
Improvavel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Simple - ask ANet. Ask them why they haven't released 7 heroes of each profession. Ask them why a single player should be limited in the amount of heroes of a certain profession but 2 shouldn't (although two players still can't run 6 Mesmers, lol). Ask them why they haven't nerfed Shadow Form yet. Ask them why a 8 human party can bring 24 PvE skills, but a 1 human party can't. Tell them they should release a cash shop item where you can buy PvE skill slots for heroes, because why should a 8 human party be able to choose freely their composition, but 1 player can't?
And I'm shutting up because this thread is getting idiotic. |
I've always been a great defender of 7 heroes.
I've always been a great defender of pve-only skill for heroes (and I don't think anet should charge for this since it is already in game).
I've always disliked the non-interactive game Shadow Form allows but apparently that is the only way PUGs can play and that is why Anet keeps it in the game.
About Anet not releasing 7 heroes for each profession - probably it wasn't something very important since players could only bring 3 each before.
But mesmer spike and SF was already in game long before mer heroes, even long before mesmers were buffed.
Would Anet have added merc heroes for free?
I doubt it.
Would anet have added 7 heroes for each profession - 43 more heroes total?
I doubt it as well.
The question that remains is why don't you buy the merc heroes?
Matter of principle?
Don't have the money?
They don't give you enough to justify the price?
Hoping that Anet will reconsider and release a bunch of heroes for free?
Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
I wasn't going to post, but this really caught my eye.
Get this: I don't really PvE, but I'm going to comment anyway. And lol, keep asking for proof when I've given you two screenshots. Where is your counter-proof? Where is your screenshot showing that these times can be matched without mercenaries? Or are you just going to keep talking? |
Quote:
| So many PvP'ers have a low opinion of PvE'ers, and yet when they try to talk PvE they embarass themselves. Simply, PvP'ers please stay out of PvE balance, and vice versa. |
EDIT: I would like to point out that I would support this change if it was proven to give players an advantage. Testing is required.
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Improvavel
I've always been a great defender of pve-only skill for heroes (and I don't think anet should charge for this since it is already in game).
The question that remains is why don't you buy the merc heroes? Matter of principle? Don't have the money? They don't give you enough to justify the price? Hoping that Anet will reconsider and release a bunch of heroes for free? |
Why does it matter why I don't buy mercenary heroes?
@Above - I'm reading that as "I'm too lazy to test, please go get me all the proof that I need so I can sit here and comment without doing work". Like I said, anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes. 1 hour 11 minutes is even more insane. Those screenshots represent the very pinnacle of PvE achievement, and yet you say that those spectacular screenshots "ISN'T PROOF" in capital letters. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't have a low opinion of PvP players who insist on sharing their opinion on PvE balance. And PvP players who start making jealousy claims all the while knowing nothing about PvE.
But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg.
Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0.
PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance.
Sk8tborderx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Maybe ANet should add a cash shop item that lets you buy PvE skill slots for heroes ...
Why does it matter why I don't buy mercenary heroes? @Above - I'm reading that as "I'm too lazy to test, please go get me all the proof that I need so I can sit here and comment without doing work". Like I said, anyone who has tried knows how blazing fast 2 hours 15 minutes DoA FR is with heroes. 1 hour 11 minutes is even more insane. Those screenshots represent the very pinnacle of PvE achievement, and yet you say that those spectacular screenshots "ISN'T PROOF" in capital letters. Give me a good reason why I shouldn't have a low opinion of PvP players who insist on sharing their opinion on PvE balance. And PvP players who start making jealousy claims all the while knowing nothing about PvE. |
Quote:
|
But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg. Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0. PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance. |
I am done posting in this thread until there is real proof posted. It really isn't hard to do, simply apply the scientific method. If you don't understand what that means then I can only assume you never passed a science class from 5th grade on.
EDIT: MAJOR fail with those last 2 screen shots by the way. You are comparing a person using Shadow Form and heroes with people that aren't, although I suspect you already knew that.
Essence Snow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx
YOU are making the claims, therefore YOU need to do the testing to back them up. It cannot be explained any easier.
|
I am rather disappointed that Upier's post got deleted as it put it very well.
Sk8tborderx
EDIT: Since ANET themselves has stated they provide an advantage then the argument is settled. I think it is sad that they are okay with providing an advantage for money.
I support the suggestion in the OP.
/signed
I support the suggestion in the OP.
/signed
NerfHerder
/notsigned
When Merc Heroes were first introduced I thought a hero cap would have been a good idea. I now realize the problem is much deeper than that. It's the professions that are inherently better than the rest thats the problem. Balance the professions and this becomes a non issue.
I agree that Merc Heroes gives an advantage. But, compared to SF, PvE Skills, Cons, profession imbalances, and the current ease of PvE, the MH advantages are relatively harmless. MH simply take advantage of all the other broken mechanics in the game.
As for ingame advantages for real life cash, MHs push the limit, but there are only so many cosmetic benefits players are willing to buy. Considering all updates and GW:B content are free, Anet was bound to start crossing the line at some point for continued revenue. IMO, MHs add fun and variety to a stale game, which far outwieghs the small ingame advantages.
When Merc Heroes were first introduced I thought a hero cap would have been a good idea. I now realize the problem is much deeper than that. It's the professions that are inherently better than the rest thats the problem. Balance the professions and this becomes a non issue.
I agree that Merc Heroes gives an advantage. But, compared to SF, PvE Skills, Cons, profession imbalances, and the current ease of PvE, the MH advantages are relatively harmless. MH simply take advantage of all the other broken mechanics in the game.
As for ingame advantages for real life cash, MHs push the limit, but there are only so many cosmetic benefits players are willing to buy. Considering all updates and GW:B content are free, Anet was bound to start crossing the line at some point for continued revenue. IMO, MHs add fun and variety to a stale game, which far outwieghs the small ingame advantages.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
But just for you, I'll give you another couple of screenshots. Here: http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg Also: http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw084.jpg.
Screenshot count - me 4, you a big round 0. PvP'ers should really not comment on PvE balance. |
The 1 hour difference to Pom Pom is mostly caused by Shadow Form.
It is a shame Pom Pom doesn't post a screen shot of him doing this without mercs,
Lasai
Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".
Furthermore, if profession makeup in group is the "advantage", then it needs limited in all ways, not just heroes. Advantage is Advantage..a group of 5 same prof players would be just as "advantageous".
Watch what you wish for.
And on another topic.. speed clears are the "Pinnacle of PVE" is just an opinion. To me. farming is farming, I really don't care how or what the power farmers do or how fast they do it, nor do I want to have the QQ of a subset of powergamers dictating what is fair or unfair for the whole game.
Speed Clear records aren't even supported by the game.. only by a relatively small group posting on a fan forum. Gamewise.. non issue. If you want to limit this fan based, unofficial type of competition.. do so. Set up whatever rules you want and leave the game alone.
Furthermore, if profession makeup in group is the "advantage", then it needs limited in all ways, not just heroes. Advantage is Advantage..a group of 5 same prof players would be just as "advantageous".
Watch what you wish for.
And on another topic.. speed clears are the "Pinnacle of PVE" is just an opinion. To me. farming is farming, I really don't care how or what the power farmers do or how fast they do it, nor do I want to have the QQ of a subset of powergamers dictating what is fair or unfair for the whole game.
Speed Clear records aren't even supported by the game.. only by a relatively small group posting on a fan forum. Gamewise.. non issue. If you want to limit this fan based, unofficial type of competition.. do so. Set up whatever rules you want and leave the game alone.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".
Furthermore, if profession makeup in group is the "advantage", then it needs limited in all ways, not just heroes. Advantage is Advantage..a group of 5 same prof players would be just as "advantageous". Watch what you wish for. And on another topic.. speed clears are the "Pinnacle of PVE" is just an opinion. To me. farming is farming, I really don't care how or what the power farmers do or how fast they do it, nor do I want to have the QQ of a subset of powergamers dictating what is fair or unfair for the whole game. Speed Clear records aren't even supported by the game.. only by a relatively small group posting on a fan forum. Gamewise.. non issue. If you want to limit this fan based, unofficial type of competition.. do so. Set up whatever rules you want and leave the game alone. |
We all know about how 8 of one profession can clear areas more efficiently than more balanced teams....(look at and sin sc...or the 600/smite vqs)
Tbh I'm "not signed" in reguards to this suggestion/thread.....as it's really messed up to sell seomthing then say..."oh hey...u know that thing u bought...we are going to mod it so it sorta suxs for u"
I only reply to ya'll, that for some reason insist on trying to prove to idk who, that everything is marshmellows and candycanes. The ppl that read all this should have the right to know what's going on w/o a few ppl always trying to skew everything.
Lasai
I have seen that Stumme post, LOL that is the "smoking gun" proving advantage?? I thought perhaps someone had found something we all didn't know already. Yeah, it is no greater advantage than anything else previously offered.
The day that times matter re completion of the game,, the day ANET sets up tourneys for speedclears or timed Z mission speed clear payouts.. then QQ. Till then.. only you all care. Stop attempting to screw with my purchase based on your private epeen competitions. I did not buy Mercs to speed clear, dont speed clear, and could care less about it.. and don't want my purchase devalued in any matter based on some unofficial sideshow.
The day that times matter re completion of the game,, the day ANET sets up tourneys for speedclears or timed Z mission speed clear payouts.. then QQ. Till then.. only you all care. Stop attempting to screw with my purchase based on your private epeen competitions. I did not buy Mercs to speed clear, dont speed clear, and could care less about it.. and don't want my purchase devalued in any matter based on some unofficial sideshow.
NerfHerder
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Link to anything ANET stated regarding Mercs being an "advantage".
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On topic, if they limit professions in a group, it should be for heroes and real players. Otherwise, it wouldnt be fair to the solo player.
Jeydra
Here's an example of the scientific method at work in Guild Wars ... or a proof that Mesmers are completely overpowered in PvE.
Consider this screenshot - http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/
Then consider this one -http://img593.imageshack.us/i/gw117b.jpg/
Without my Mesmer I can't even complete Raisu HM anymore! Surely Mesmers must be completely overpowered in PvE! Oh my God!!
If you claim that mercenaries don't provide in-game advantages, go out there and get screenshots to back your claims up. Times for areas using mercenaries have already been posted. Don't be lazy and expect everyone else to do your work for you.
@Lasai, those screenshots are the pinnacle of PvE achievement not because they are speedclears. They are the pinnacle of PvE achievement because of the effort and skill they take to play. Can you for example achieve an 8:07 time or faster in Raisu HM, without using consumables? I doubt it.
Stumme's entry is pretty bad. He doesn't seem to understand PvE balance either.
Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not. Don't believe me, prove me wrong. Get a screenshot of DoA FR faster than 1 hour 11 minutes.
Once again I'll predict responses to this argument.
1. Pom (or me, in the case of Raisu) are way above average in terms of player skill.
2. Shadow Form.
3. I don't care how fast I do stuff, I care only that I succeed.
4. DoA / Raisu aren't representative areas (or I don't care about DoA and other elite areas).
5. Consumables.
These reasons always show up, one way or another ...
Consider this screenshot - http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/
Then consider this one -http://img593.imageshack.us/i/gw117b.jpg/
Without my Mesmer I can't even complete Raisu HM anymore! Surely Mesmers must be completely overpowered in PvE! Oh my God!!
If you claim that mercenaries don't provide in-game advantages, go out there and get screenshots to back your claims up. Times for areas using mercenaries have already been posted. Don't be lazy and expect everyone else to do your work for you.
@Lasai, those screenshots are the pinnacle of PvE achievement not because they are speedclears. They are the pinnacle of PvE achievement because of the effort and skill they take to play. Can you for example achieve an 8:07 time or faster in Raisu HM, without using consumables? I doubt it.
Stumme's entry is pretty bad. He doesn't seem to understand PvE balance either.
Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not. Don't believe me, prove me wrong. Get a screenshot of DoA FR faster than 1 hour 11 minutes.
Once again I'll predict responses to this argument.
1. Pom (or me, in the case of Raisu) are way above average in terms of player skill.
2. Shadow Form.
3. I don't care how fast I do stuff, I care only that I succeed.
4. DoA / Raisu aren't representative areas (or I don't care about DoA and other elite areas).
5. Consumables.
These reasons always show up, one way or another ...
Lasai
Sorry, but if you are going to make the claim for in-game advantage then it falls to you to prove in-game tangible benefit deriving from that so called advantage.
You receive nothing from the game by doing it faster than the required master time..something achievable easily without mercs.
All you get from this "advantage" in speed is a screen shot and an inflated ego.. neither of those worth changing game mechanics over. The game itself gives you absolutely nothing for that 8 min Raisu.
I cannot log onto the ANET site and see a ladder or rewards given for speed for any Normal mission/explorable. If I could..perhaps you would have a case. This, however, is over bragging rights on an internet forum.
Nobody is denied anything by not having Merc Heroes. In no case does the game give an actual reward to those having Mercs that is unattainable by those who do not.
Your speed contests are again, a private, fan based competition unsupported and unrewarded by ANET. You can call it what ever "pinnacle" you want, at the end of the day it is just a thread on a forum, and in actuality probably one ignored by a very large majority of people who play the game.
Your perception of "balance" issues in the context of a screenshot contest has no bearing on actual ingame rewards. Speed, whether attained by consumables, hero makeup, or skillsets is merely a matter of convenience, and the importance of that convenience is solely in the individuals opinion.
As with most optional convenience purchases you have to decide if it is worth the additional cost or not. No one has yet to prove an advantage with Mercs, in normal gameplay, worthy of changing normal gameplay mechanics.
You receive nothing from the game by doing it faster than the required master time..something achievable easily without mercs.
All you get from this "advantage" in speed is a screen shot and an inflated ego.. neither of those worth changing game mechanics over. The game itself gives you absolutely nothing for that 8 min Raisu.
I cannot log onto the ANET site and see a ladder or rewards given for speed for any Normal mission/explorable. If I could..perhaps you would have a case. This, however, is over bragging rights on an internet forum.
Nobody is denied anything by not having Merc Heroes. In no case does the game give an actual reward to those having Mercs that is unattainable by those who do not.
Your speed contests are again, a private, fan based competition unsupported and unrewarded by ANET. You can call it what ever "pinnacle" you want, at the end of the day it is just a thread on a forum, and in actuality probably one ignored by a very large majority of people who play the game.
Your perception of "balance" issues in the context of a screenshot contest has no bearing on actual ingame rewards. Speed, whether attained by consumables, hero makeup, or skillsets is merely a matter of convenience, and the importance of that convenience is solely in the individuals opinion.
As with most optional convenience purchases you have to decide if it is worth the additional cost or not. No one has yet to prove an advantage with Mercs, in normal gameplay, worthy of changing normal gameplay mechanics.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Lasai
Sorry, but if you are going to make the claim for in-game advantage then it falls to you to prove in-game tangible benefit deriving from that so called advantage.
You receive nothing from the game by doing it faster than the required master time..something achievable easily without mercs. |
Clearly this is a stupid position to argue from.
Having access to Mercs is an advantage. It's trivially true - for one thing I potentially have immediate access to level 20 heroes of any profession as soon as a char hits level 20.
Does that add up to much? No. But it's impossible to claim "no advantage" whilst this is true and even if this is discounted, it's still an untenable position.
Lasai
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
If I can do everything in the game with 7 heroes, all only using 7 skill slots (with nothing in the 8th), then what advantage is given by the 8th slot.
Clearly this is a stupid position to argue from. Having access to Mercs is an advantage. It's trivially true - for one thing I potentially have immediate access to level 20 heroes of any profession as soon as a char hits level 20. Does that add up to much? No. But it's impossible to claim "no advantage" whilst this is true and even if this is discounted, it's still an untenable position. |
In the context of the argument the "advantage" being protested so vehemently is speed. I have yet to see anything tangible even on the level of an extra char slot or storage panel.. both "advantages" that are accepted and impact a far larger percentage of the game population than speed records do.
Of course Mercs are a trivial advantage in efficiency and convenience.. as with many of the other purchases. I have yet to see a convincing argument that Merc heroes provide an advantage worthy of a change in game mechanics, as this thread proposes. That is the type of "advantage" I refer to.
This proposal on limits is akin to arguing "I can't have every prof in game without buying extra slots, therefore I propose that all players be limited to only 8 professions regardless of number of character slots"
Jeydra
Do you deny that buying Prophecies provides an in-game advantage, because I bet everything can be done without Prophecies skills, with the only thing lost being speed?
Do you deny that things can be done with 7 skill slots as opposed to 8, with the only thing lost being speed?
Or do you admit your position is stupid?
And you, like so many before you, show words, words and more words but refuse to come up with anything to back them up. Screenshot count last I checked: me 6, you (and all the other people who think mercenaries don't provide an in-game advantage in this thread) a big round 0.
I'll say this again. Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not.
Do you deny that things can be done with 7 skill slots as opposed to 8, with the only thing lost being speed?
Or do you admit your position is stupid?
And you, like so many before you, show words, words and more words but refuse to come up with anything to back them up. Screenshot count last I checked: me 6, you (and all the other people who think mercenaries don't provide an in-game advantage in this thread) a big round 0.
I'll say this again. Arguing that mercenaries give an in-game advantage but that mercenaries are nonetheless justified is a defensible position. Arguing that mercenaries do not give an in-game advantage is not.