Paragon - The Dead PvP Class

With group PvP dying, so does the Paragon Class. It's a very useful class in PvE, since you actually have a group and all skills are effective (hence, there is the popular Imbagon, which will be nerfed). However, in PvP, besides maybe GvG and HA (which are dying), the Paragon is maybe the most useless class.

The Dervish recently got a huge update, which totally shaped the class into something different and useful. I ask that the paragon receives a similar update to make it's class useful.

The first problem I have with this class is that it is a last choice class in PvP, even in GvG and HA. There are many builds that work well with a paragon, but there are many other builds, that don't include paragons, that are more successful. Why is this? Let's look.

There are only two elite Spear Mastery Skills
And they're pretty useless. First is Stunning Spear, which deals good damage and adds the dazed condition to your enemy. The problem with this skill is that it requires 10 adrenaline, and if it misses by a player dodging, it's a pain. And to build the adrenaline is a pain in the rear side. My suggestion is to reduce the adrenaline requirement to 7 or 8, and also make it move twice as fast. It's suppose to be stunning after all.

The other is cruel spear, which is actually quite useful, except that the deep wound condition (which makes it useful) is only applied if the opponent is not moving. Simple - remove the latter.

This class needs a group to be used

In the Popular PvP, most people, believe it or not, do not work as a group. Arguably RA and JQ/FA/AB are the popular PvP's in this game. In these, you're mostly playing solo, except AB, which is near dead unless there is a ZPvP for it. Because of this, a lot of skills are useless as well, and only a few of them are used just to give the paragons build the bonuses, rather than the group. Anthem of Flame and GOTEs are the main ones. So my suggestion for this is to make each skill useful, by making the person using it get a benefit. Maybe change the attribute "Leadership" to add health and energy at the start and at the end of the shout/chant.

Spears

A lot of Paragon skills increase the attack speed, however, some these are difficult to maintain unless your build has a lot of chants or shouts, which, probably don't for a paragon to be effective when fighting alone. Spears, like Scythes, should have a slight increased attack speed.

Lack of conditions

Paragons can add bleeding, dazed, deep wound, and burnin conditions. Most other professions can add at least more. The paragon is built like a ranger that has less range and has damage over degen. The only way to really add more is cross professions. However, if you add other skills, you must take away others in your build that make your paragon as effective as possible.

Lack of defense

For a character with 80 AR, I do not believe there are any blocking skills for a paragon. The heals are also fairly weak. Some chants/shouts give (weak) hex/condition removal, but other than that, the paragon is pretty defenseless besides their AR. Having no skills to blind, block, or dodge make the paragon a standing duck.

A bunch of classes into one, but nerfed

The Paragon is like a warrior, with 80 AR, but without blocking. It's like a ranger without condition spreading or max range. It's like a ritualist except for instead of weapon spells it's called "chants". It's like a monk but again, has chants instead of real heals. Ultimately, alone the paragon is fairly weak.


My main suggestion is really just to upgrade the paragon. I don't care if my ideas are added into the game, but the paragon stands as the most useless class right now. As group PvP is dying, so is the paragon, and it's time for an improvement for this shadowed class.

What would buffing a midline class already capable of outputting unhealthy amounts of physical damage do for the game that would be beneficial in terms of the big picture?

The problem with paragon in my opinion is that it's a profession more likely used as support or additional damage...Thus more likely going to be used to help a team , for a spike , defensive anthems ,etc and require coordination....

That's why they got no use in other outposts than HA and GvG , since other professions using a spear are usually more useful , and a rit will usually be better at defense....

That's exactly same point as the OP...But well , i don't really know how to make the profession that useful and even , i just think the paragon is one of the forgotten things by ANET ( with polymock , zaishen elite , codex , etc....)

no ty, paragons were nerfed for a reason and they should be kept this way in pvp

anet, for whatever reason, policy or incompetence, can't be trusted to buff/nerf anything

Paragons are still as retarded a concept as they were over 3 years ago. Keep them nerfed into the ground and the game will be better for it.

Lack of Conditions: Deep wound was pro I hurd!?!?! Name me another class that can deep wound reliably at range? Assasin..... ummmm....... yeah rangers have more conditions but thats cos they are RANGERS! they are supposed to... (also, as u mentiuoned they have reliable daze skill as well!)

Lack of Defense: WTF - 80 base AR, -20AR for Aggressive, +16AR from shield, +10AR from shield Mod, +5AR from spear, +10AR from centurions = 101AR against all dmg types before any skill modifiers <--- thats not lack of defense, you just dont know how to set up your armour

Spear: IS RANGED DMG! Therefore hard to prot, easy to switch targets! If you buff this all that happens is midline spike dmg becomes far too OPed and you get another boring spike meta! It is balanced atm (yo probably dont understand that but it is) its average (as all skills should be) IF your good with it and coordinate well, its poor if you have no team coordination <-- if you make it good with no team coordination then it becomes seriously OPed in high end PvP. Its not the paragons fault that you think its weak, its your fault and the 7 people around you!

Needs to be in a group: Guild wars is about teamwork, NOT solo play, you always have a group with you! Of course if you have 8 rather than 4 people a paragons effect is greater but so is a ritualist, or arty heals on a monk, or necro orders buffs, so are curses, so are condtions etc.... EVERYTHING is more powerful in larger groups as you can synergise more skills with each other! Paragons are just another example!

Sorry, your arguments are invalid! I love paras too, and yes maybe a few areas of them could be buffed (very slightly)
e.g.
Motivation skills (very slight or will be way OPed) probs just minor number tweaking to boost the heals a bit.

Command shouts e.g. Stand your ground: Target ally gains +24AR for 5 seconds when standing still (12 command) 10e, 15 sec recharge.

This way it becomes a more challenging (requires ability to watch their frontline etc...) class to play well and gives it the buff necessary to see it have some use again however not creating OPed defensive spike teams where everyone has like 100AR (as with the old stand your ground) Furthermore having more individual targeted shouts will mean they have more use in smaller party sizes!

Leave the dmg alone tho, please!!!!

I don't see how swinging a sword at range is healthy.

/no

Honestly just making spear moves twice as fast is enough omfgwtfpawnagepewpewpewlazser!!!

I'm tired of the myth that spear damage is higher than other ranged weapons.
This is most likely said by non-paragon primaries who use +5 energy spears and think it's gee whiz-golly better than the staffs and wands they would be using otherwise.
Removing PvE only skills, the paragon is very difficult to use in PvP and is only effective within a limited scope of coniditions.

Create a PvP paragon or take your pve paragon to a pvp area and look at the skills. Almost all the non-spear skills have PvP splits and the PvE versions were already majorly nerfed before the PvE/PvP skill split.

This was done solely and purely solely to accommodate GvG, and the disproportionate effect paras originally had on the GvG meta.

Anet PvP focus has been on GvG since day one, and remains there. If it's bad for GvG it's going to be buffed or nerfed.
Since shouts and chants can affect 8 on 8 games disproportionately, Anet has essentially given up on paragons in PvP.

Lastly, the OP mentioned imbagons being nerfed (I assume by making SY less effective or barred from para bars). That will be the end of GW for me (I play my para the most) unless they buff the native paragon skills to an equally usable level or change the role of the para like they did with dervs and rits.
The only thing that could keep me interested in that point would be a nerf simultaneously to the following other skills; Signet of Sprits, Soul Twisting, Ether Renewal, Searing Flame, Unyielding Aura, Healer's Boon, Spiteful Spirit, Discord, Panic, Psychic Instability, Shadow Form, Way of the Assassin, Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Grenth, Barrage, Burning Arrow, Deny Pain, and Hundred Blades.

Then I'd be fine with it because everyone would quit with me and I wouldn't feel like I was missing anything.

I'm not sure. If the derv update is anything to go by, Paragons will be buffed into oblivion. Then the new meta will be insane damage from minlines or OP defence skills like pre defensive anthem nerf, resulting in nobody ever dying.

I agree with this. If you have an idea for Paragons or any PvP skill changes, you must have an extensive knowledge of GvG and use that as template for said changes. Otherwise it will never see the light of day. GvG is the standard for PvP skill balancing and often flows into PvE.

I can easily see Paragons getting a buff in PvE with only a few tweaks to skill numbers, and becoming much more useful. However, in PvP the Paragon is a nightmare to balance, simply due to the nature of its mechanics (ie. unremovable party wide effects, high armor ranged attacker, must be within shout range of 6-8 players for energy mngmt, etc.) Any one thing they can do in PvP another profession can do better. They dont fit the mold that all the other professions do.

In PvP and even in PvE I like to think of the Paragon as like Quon Sang, the Turtle Dragon from factions. The eternal paradox, not one thing or another. A reminder that we will never fully understand what Anet is thinking.

Buffing Paragons for PvP is a nightmare waiting to happen. 1 Paragon = balanced. 4 Paragons = Imba. That is why they were nerfed. Very little counters exist in the game to balance shouts and chants. Once applied they can't be removed. Unlike weapon spells they stack and 4 Para's will stomp all foes. Spears were nerfed because of fighters, sins and rangers. The primary attribute for those classes made spears brutal.

Just as strip enchantment found it's way onto a lot of secondary prof bars during the enchantment heyday, they could just buff vocal minority and ulcerous lungs. Make them cheaper in PvP and/or last longer.
Making Soothing more powerful, soothing images, etc.

They could conceivably buff paras in PvP, but it would be a major burden for the live team that has all but promised that major profession updates are a thing of the past.

Now that I'm off my soapbox, I'd like to mention two things about paras in "popular" PvP areas. Paras are very good at keeping shrines in JQ. I find that Never Surrender and Angelic Bond is one of the few combos that can nullify a contagion bomber. Spear swipe is a nice daze skill and coupled with bleeding and maiming spears it can crimp the other team's offense nicely.

I tried my para at FA last week and I was nicely surprised. Again angelic bond and never surrender shouted on the other side of the gate or amongst friendly NPCs (kurzick side for me) can add some survivability to what are otherwise cannon fodder. Not to mention that anthem of flame/weariness and GftE on a NPC rangers is nice.
Those are all things that a ST rit can do, but add in the fact that you aren't relying on destroyable spirits, and that Holy Spear is armageddon for hostile minion masters and healing rits....

The downside is that these are situational. In JQ the para is gimped against traditional caster cappers and does not have the offensive ability to cap a shrine.
In FA, your effectiveness depends on the makeup of your team. A typical Kurz team has 1-3 rangers but if you end up with all mesmers, you are definitely a 5th wheel. Additionally a physically offensive team can make the kind of build I mentioned above more of a liability.

I'd like to see Defensive Anthem (PvP) buffed in duration but at increased cost (25e if you must) and decreased effect. Maybe 10-18 seconds a 20% chance to block, ends when you attack.
That would not be so bad because A. NPCs auto attack anyway and B. with 10 seconds of use, 25 sec recharge, and 2 sec. cast it's not exactly a god skill.

i think that paras are fine at the moment. especially that two para build that was running around a while back. perma agressive refrain, and shouts and chants going out everywhere was godlike, especially since teh elite slot was free for like expel or empathatic.

the thing about paras is that there needs to be at least two of them to reach their full potential, which means they need to have the team build built around them. they just dont fit into the current meta (dervs, mesmers, dervs, dervs, and eles)

Yes. And?

It's a support-based midliner, it only really has a role in team-based formats by design. There's not much that can be done to fix that. Certainly, straight buffing of the class is ludicrous; it's balanced where it is in 8v8 formats. If you want to see it turned into something that it's not (namely, a class that can stand on its own without relying on a team), you're probably going to be disappointed. GW already has a skirmisher midline character (ranger), so throwing another one into the mix with higher armor is probably not going to work out so well. That, and the fact that the Live Team has said that no other classes are getting huge overhauls anymore.

The team said that no other classes are getting dervish-large, 9 month overhauls anymore. Skill updates are still possible and (I certainly hope) probable, cause paragons certainly need skill updates.

If you want to mess with spear damage then here's and idea - change some spear attacks into melee attacks similar to spear swipe (especially ones that cause deep wound) and then reduce the range of spear chucking. That way you have a somewhat unique playstyle of switching between melee and ranged depending on the situation.

/notsigned. Although, the Motivation line could use a buff in PvE to give us Para-friends more builds to use.

I wish paragons were a more viable class to play in RA. Sadly, they just weren't designed for 4v4. The other classes at least feel like they add to a team in there. I usually roll secondary elites in RA whilst on my para.

I'm fine with buffing para's in PvE since it is obviously soooo unbelievably hard that you just can't seem to beat anything with the current builds out there, but leave PvP alone. Only reason paragons seem so weak is because everything else is just way to overpowered.

Paragons are good but not amazing, hence why it is probably one of the most balanced classes out there.

Yes but buffing paragon only in PvE would lead to some complications :
- making spear skills better would lead to players using W/P , R/P , etc.....
- making support skills better won't really change stuff.... Usually you need a few paras in your team as support to be efficient . If you consider it's really hard to find 3-4 paragons in PvE to team with and that heroes IA is desastrous , people would rather use ritualist skills....

Paragon is quite flawed by it's definition. It maybe would have needed more original and unique skills compared to other classes , or just maybe doesn't fit at all with 2 profession system... i don't really know

are you SURE about this!?

[Burning Shield]: Skill. (3...8...9 seconds.) Blocks the next attack skill against you. Inflicts Burning condition (1...5...6 second[s]) if it was a melee attack.

Defensive Anthem: Elite Chant. (4...9...10 seconds.) Party members in earshot have 50% chance to block. Ends when hitting with an attack skill.

these are available in PvP as blocking skills for the Paragon i believe?

anyways. /not signed. From my point of view, paragon is dead in PvP and exists solely for PvE.

Definately not for PvP.

If they are to buff anything for paragons it should be in the leadership attribute only.

I didnt say they did need them for PvP.

For PvE, they need a motivation overhaul for the non-elites and a rework of the conditionality factors on command/leadership skills in addition to buffs to the leadership and command elites.

Look at the title.

I want the paragon update as well. Look at the dervs, what else could go wrong?

So it's not that paras are weak, it's just that everything else is overpowered.....do you work for the RNC, because you have excellent spin my friend.

If everyone is stronger than you, you're are weak, not balanced!!!

Burning shield blocks 1 attack.

Defensive anthem has 2 second cast and 25 second recharge, and you can't attack.
Compare to non-elite warrior shouts "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!"

Sorry, burning shield isn't bad (added in EotN) but Def. Anthem is a crappy skill and is certainly not worthy of being an elite skill. As I said before, add sometime to it, reduce the blocking %, and allow attacking.

There are two things that they can do, that will buff paras without completely destroying PvP as we know it; and they will be rather simple.
First, slight buff to the healing numbers of the motivation line.
Second, remove all the dam conditional restrictions on 90% of the paragon skills. Every freaking skill is "if they are moving", "if they are bleeding", "if they are crippled", "only if you don't attack", "only on yourself (PvP)".

If a skill is overpowered than increase the energy cost, with 2 pips and the team moving and scattered, you won't get the full benefits of leadership bonuses.

"Find Their Weakness" is overpowered, increase the cost and recharge but don't gimp the skill on top of those other things.

If paras seem to get strong, then players will just have to change their meta bars for some anti-para hate.

There are so many skills that shutdown paras, would it really kill the entirety of PvP if one player on a team had to pack ulcerous lungs, vocal minority, or well of silence?

Balancing things around hard counters with no other use is terrible design.

And no, enchantment removal doesn't fall under that category.

Yes, because those skills are terrible if you don't face paragons.

They've buffed mesmer interrupts to hit chants now, at least, so they might be able to get away with buffing some of those.

Yes, i am saying that most of the other classes are Overpowered. The reason they are OP'ed is because they are way to easy to score kills on and they are TOO good at there jobs. Look at the buffs to the Mesmer, Necro, and Dervish for instance, it was a little underpowered so they buffed it and now they are the main OP'ed classes to use in PvP. When paragons have seen use it was either cause there skills were to OP (i.e. the motivation line and the original Incoming) or because the game was semi balanced after most of the classes were brought down to a managable level. Everything is going back to the old ways of Buff everything and hope nothing is too OP which i have yet to see work. Buff them in PvE since that area of the game is already a joke but leave it out of pvp. Heck, at this rate they might as well allow pve only skills into PvP and allow everyone to take a copy of Base Defense into matches and just let the servers decide who gets the kill.

BTW, DA lets you attack, it ends on attack skills.

"The dead should stay dead."

Honestly guys and gals, I am pretty sure the live team won't need our idiotic skill balance suggestions to powercreep the paragon to absurd levels judging from their track record.

One change does not siginficantly affect the "big picture"...

but then again, the "big picture" isn't the only issue that "needs addressing"

The dervish update wants a talk with you.

/AGREE

But I find it kinda Ironic that the build with the "most utility" for RA Paragons has NO SHOUTS/CHANTS/ECHOS - since E management is inhrently handicapped in RA.

12+? Spear, 12+? Mot, (sure put 3 in leadership)

Spear of Lightning
Barbed Spear
Holy Spear
Blazing Spear
Spear of Redemption
Empathic Removal
Signet Of Synergy
Res Sig

Of course there are always options instead of Spear Of Redemption &/or Holy Spear if you actually THINK you can manage the E in RA with all the blocks/dodges - Disrupting Throw, Maiming Spear, Spear Swipe, etc...

I guess I misterpreted what you meant by "big picture". I thought that "big picture" meant things like bring players back to PvP, bring new players into PvP, Eliminate wait times for matches to start, eliminated rank discrimination, etc... if "big picture" means STEERING the meta then yeah I must /AGREE that a set of changes to a specific class CAN affect the meta.

Sry for mis-interpretation lemming...

I think the spear damage myth is because it is talking about natural dmg. WIth no attack skill and no +dmg added. But anyway,

Can I ask what was so bad about paras in GvG. I only remeber 6 para team who were camping altar in HA. You make it sounds as if it was impossible to correctly balance it for 8-man play. I guess 6 para + runner would be annoying, but in a normal team, why was it impossible for them to tone balance them to 8man level and admit they will be bad in the other formats.

Well, there is no skill update they could do that would cause a significant change in any of those things you mentioned. So as far as skill updates go, the biggest picture they can affect would be steering the meta. Bringing players back, getting new players to start playing, eliminating rank discrimination, etc... is something that can only be addressed through a physical change in how the game is played similar to a change in the tournament structure and rewards provided. Skill updates are not powerful enough to actually make a difference in that category.

I can agree with that, I suppose.

To be fair, though, how does buffing a class specifically revitalize PvP? The population spike from any big update only lasts a week, if even that. For it to be otherwise, it would have to either

a. significantly fix the game, thereby convincing many former players to unretire (odds of Anet pulling that off are zero)
b. add something that appeals to the lowest common denominator enough that many PvEers will actually want to switch over

Dervishes should have fit that second description - look at how many PvE dervishes you've seen since the update. No one can disagree that it was a very successful update for that purpose. However, adding a Fisher-Price class to PvP only served to kill it more. The same new players who are trying to get in don't enjoy getting abused by the same bar played by someone else.

Once upon a time, Anet refused to nerf blood spike for months on end because they thought that new players would enjoy having an easy build to run, conveniently ignoring the fact that new players unanimously hated spike because it's the definition of a build that works significantly worse against low rating teams (highly dependent on the infuse monk's ability to make a save). I imagine that the effect that dervishes have for players new to GvG is similar - it's not fun at all to get smashed in less than a minute and not have any idea what happened.

Paragons do similar autoattack DPS to axe warriors at range. In other words, you're getting most of the 8v8 functionality of a warrior (damage, deep wounds) without the penalty of positioning, being vulnerable to snares, having to land Bull's Strikes, or getting dumped on by very good prot monks. What that has added up to is a class that basically requires zero interactivity to play - you can literally play at 95% efficiency with one hand.

The only reason you don't see more paragons these days is because of how the metagame evolved - in an environment where pushing the opposing team's flagger and stopping them from pushing yours is paramount, the immobility and relative lack of utility of paragons is a liability.