Since Jeydra's little BDSM challenge, I have been meditating on why BDSM did not lose by a much larger margin, and why other (better) spirit+mesmer builds did as well as they did.
The point of my consternation has been that these builds lack offense to such a degree that they should not be as fast as they are. Spirits are single-target. Minion bombers are not huge DPS. Mesmers have bad recharges that leaves them with pretty low overall DPS. There's just not a lot of DPS. And yet, they move through content fast.
I think I have an answer.
But first, by way of background, I want to wax philosophic on a taxonomy of backlines for a moment. Imagine facing a mob of monsters with no offense on your team, only mitigation and healing. Now, let's assume that the monsters are unable to kill you, so this goes on forever. Imagine what the graph of the monsters' damage plotted over time would look like. Zoomed in, it's going to be full of peaks and valleys -- Rodgort's > peak; aftercast > valley; etc. Zoomed out, it's going to be a long flat line -- the monsters' average DPS. Now imagine another line plotted for your team's healing+mitigation over time. Again, it will be jagged with peaks and valleys in the close up, but a flat line in the distant view. Call it average M+HPS.
There are essentially four possible relationships between your party's average M+HPS and the monsters' average DPS.
The first is a situation where your M+HPS is not even close to a match for the monsters' DPS, and the party dies almost instantly. You might call this the "fail backline" or the "PUG backline." I'm going to call it a Type 0 backline.
The second is a situation where monster DPS exceeds M+HPS, but not by very much. So lifebars head south, but not rapidly. There is time to kill a monster or two and reduce the monsters' DPS so that it falls below M+HPS before anyone gets killed. Everything works out in the end provided that (1) monster DPS starts out at a reasonable level (ie no overaggro) and (2) your offense is able to eliminate a couple monsters promptly. I'm going to call this a Type 1 backline.
The third is a situation where M+HPS exceeds monster DPS, but only because of deficit spending of resources (usually energy). Once those resources run out, the situation reverts to a Type 1 or even Type 0. I'm going to call this Type 2. For practical purposes it behaves like a Type 1 with a longer time window to get the kills you need to reduce monster DPS to a manageable level.
Finally, fourth situation is where M+HPS flat out exceeds monster DPS at the natural resource rate (4 pips of energy regen for the most part). In this case, no one ever dies, except to a spike. Call this Type 3.
Most of us learned to play GW with a Type 1/Type 2 backline. There's a few reasons for this: Mhenlo and Lina aren't capable of anything more, and most of us got our start with Mhenlo and Lina, or with even worse PUG monks. Prophecies mobs tend to have few individual monsters, which makes Type1/Type 2 work quite well most of the time. Type1/Type 2 leaves the most room for offense (aside from Type 0, which doesn't count because it simply dies), and everyone loves offense. As long as Type1/Type2 works, bringing any more defense/healing feels like a waste of space.
OK, now back to BDSM and other (better) spirit+mesmer builds:
It's been said that the great advantage of BDSM is that you can aggro everything on the map, go afk for a cup of tea, and not die. It's darned near foolproof. In short, it's a Type 3 backline. To some degree, this extends to all spirit+mesmer builds -- there's an awful lot of mitigation and often a lot of healing too.
My hypothesis is that spirit+mesmer builds perform well speed-wise because they make up time lost to poor kill speed through overaggroing. Time is saved by not pulling, not waiting for mobs to patrol where you want them, not repositioning to approach from a better angle, never retreating, and so on. Apparently you can often save enough time by "playing sloppy but not dying" like this to offset your worse kill speed as compared to a more DPS-oriented team.
The practical application of all this is that there might be something to be said for running Type 3 backlines in general. Now, I'm not advocating for BDSM here (or even spirit+mesmer in general). There's other ways to make a Type 3 backline. For example, for the past few days I've been running a ST + E/Mo + SoS/Resto backline with the other five slots, including the player, running almost pure offense. The results have been insane.
I'm aware this flies in the face of the old maxim "bring as little healing as you can get away with without dying, and everything else should be offense," as well as the emerging maxim that "more than one dedicated backline character in a 7H team is a waste of space." Oh well, both conventional wisdom and myself have been wrong before from time to time.
(I have two requests to make of those who may think I've gone of my rocker here: (1) Try it before posting. Take ST + E/Mo + SoS/Resto + 5 synergized offensive builds and go try something hard. Go deliberately overaggro. (2) Try to provide some plausible alternative explanation for the results of Jeydra's BDSM challenge. Specifically, why did so many low-DPS builds do so well? (Or in the case of BDSM, so "not as badly as expected."))
About Backlines
Chthon
Gabs88
Simply put, the better you can control aggro the more efficient single target is over AoE. If you're an experienced player and proficient in flagging heroes, body-blocking, pulling and balling up your enemies then a team based around a high powered AoE spike is going to perform a lot better then one based around single target damage as the damage potential of AoE spells is a lot higher.
But, if you don't care about pulling mobs and just charge straight in without waiting. A team with a larger margin for error is going to be a lot more efficient.
Some teams are also tied up around your own primary profession and\or play-style. If you have 2 elementalist heroes and 1 elementalist player, those three are a lot more likely to stand in the same location then if you play a ritualist, ranger, monk or dervish. And can therefore benefit by buffing each other with EBSOH, EBSOW.
If you really want accurate results on best build, you'd need at least 20-30 people doing the same missions with 4-5 different kinds of builds and primary classes and doing it in the exact same way every time. But even then over the course of 5 mission completions you're going to learn some new tricks in order to make it faster and hence the results will be soiled again.
But, if you don't care about pulling mobs and just charge straight in without waiting. A team with a larger margin for error is going to be a lot more efficient.
Some teams are also tied up around your own primary profession and\or play-style. If you have 2 elementalist heroes and 1 elementalist player, those three are a lot more likely to stand in the same location then if you play a ritualist, ranger, monk or dervish. And can therefore benefit by buffing each other with EBSOH, EBSOW.
If you really want accurate results on best build, you'd need at least 20-30 people doing the same missions with 4-5 different kinds of builds and primary classes and doing it in the exact same way every time. But even then over the course of 5 mission completions you're going to learn some new tricks in order to make it faster and hence the results will be soiled again.
chullster
Request Anet ban the BDSM guild tag as they decided to ban my girlfriends fully kitted out guild with that EXACT tag.
This was after she contected anet on another issue, they saw the tag, banned it, QQ.
This was after she contected anet on another issue, they saw the tag, banned it, QQ.
FoxBat
I'm wondering what exactly you have in mind for a hero that does more average AoE than a mesmer without requiring a melee player to proc off of. I'm sure EFJack would've run 4 mesmers instead of FoC necs if mercs were allowed in that UW "contest", and we have a crazy fast DoA clear resting mostly on mesmer hero damage as well. The shutdown is a significant consideration, but the raw damage is pretty high versus the alternatives.
Gabs88
Quote:
DoA mes-spike:
1. Deep freeze mobs in place
2. Lower targets HP thru Esurge \ Unnatural Signet \ Cry of Pain
3. Kill some targets off with spiritual pain \ empathy \ backfire \ VoR
4. Set of an EoE chain finishing off the rest.
So in short, if you take away the EoE then it's far less impressive. And EoE isn't something you just happen to use in general PVE either. And also it relies on perfectly balled enemies. For obvious reasons those are a lot easier to kill with AoE then single target damage
Btw, not saying mesmers are bad in any way.
Chthon
1. Thread is about backlines. Why posts focusing on mesmer damage? Or AoE vs single-target damage? Or damage at all?
2. Spirit+mesmer mesmers tend to be Panic and Inept, not damage elites. Even if you think E-surge heroes qualify as high DPS (I disagree, but whatever), Panic heroes are not.
3. Even damage elites are, as Gabbs points out, spike builds, not DPS builds. You blow everything up in one shot without giving it a chance to ever hit you back. Recharge and backline are irrelevant as long as you don't screw up. In that sense, it's a completely different animal. In the "no mercs, no SF-tanks" world, recharge lowers mesmer hero DPS and backline does matter. Which brings me back around to point 1, so.... thoughts about backlines, anyone?
2. Spirit+mesmer mesmers tend to be Panic and Inept, not damage elites. Even if you think E-surge heroes qualify as high DPS (I disagree, but whatever), Panic heroes are not.
3. Even damage elites are, as Gabbs points out, spike builds, not DPS builds. You blow everything up in one shot without giving it a chance to ever hit you back. Recharge and backline are irrelevant as long as you don't screw up. In that sense, it's a completely different animal. In the "no mercs, no SF-tanks" world, recharge lowers mesmer hero DPS and backline does matter. Which brings me back around to point 1, so.... thoughts about backlines, anyone?
EFGJack
Panic offers hidden DPS (Joke from a certain MMORPG). Every prot, res or heal interrupted equals damage done by the same amount the interrupted spell would have healed or prevented. Same goes for interrupted damage spells; hidden protection. FYI. don't overlook this.
Plutoman
The thread is not necessarily solely about backlines, because the builds mentioned seem to be mentioned incorrectly. The mesmer groups typically have a significantly higher dps due to hitting multiple targets, in addition to high damage spells, and contrary to descriptions, short recharges courtesy of fast casting.
An ineptitude mesmer is going to have a comparable single target DPS to any melee, and much higher if just two targets are hit. An E-Surge mesmer involves significant amounts of DPS because E-Surge is on a 10 sec recharge, mistrust, 8 seconds, CoF, 8 seconds, unnatural, 10 seconds. The group of skills is relatively spammable when combined.
When combined into an area like Raisu, where it is relatively easy to hit multiple targets (most areas, in fact, are easy to hit at least two targets, frequently 3), the 'low-dps' team builds aren't, in fact, low dps. I'm not personally a fan of spirits, but the spirits can put out single target pressure that is good for the end of the battle.
Regarding backlines; I've always played, once I could, with a type 3 backline as you would describe it. From my early prophecies experiences, I found that I rarely had enough healing to survive due to Mhenlo and Lino. Thus, once I had heroes, I made sure I had plenty. Slower but surefire. If I could kill two groups at once - I typically did. Which correspondingly does cut off time, as you've predicted. My personal experience in the matter.
Now; there's a lot to be said for DPS-Oriented teams. 5 mesmer combo's go fast - other combinations work well, too. They can move faster and more effectively, with a higher margin for skill level cutting back on time. However, being more damage oriented, when the number of enemies is more than the damage can knock back fast, they are fragile under high pressure.
The points you are bringing up are that mesmer and spirits aren't as effective damage; I would argue that they are. Mesmer damage can synergize remarkably well, too.
Personally (and to get back to backlines), I would disagree with only bringing one backline. I think the extra support from doubling the backline is more effective than adding a small percentage of firepower to the offensive line. In many areas I use a triple-backline, other areas I use a double backline (BiP Resto + UA Heal/Prot). There's multiple ways to make a secure backline, and it provides a safety, a manner of guaranteed damage.
I'd add that the use of a solid backline means heroes will not ever be dead and unable to produce DPS; therefore, the DPS is guaranteed. Using a fragile backline in the use of high DPS means lost DPS when any single hero dies, or if the party wipes and has to respawn.
I'm pretty tired and woke up early, so my points are messy and out of order, but hopefully not incomprehensible - forgive me for that. Heck, they may not be entirely valid, correct me if I'm completely wrong on anything.
An ineptitude mesmer is going to have a comparable single target DPS to any melee, and much higher if just two targets are hit. An E-Surge mesmer involves significant amounts of DPS because E-Surge is on a 10 sec recharge, mistrust, 8 seconds, CoF, 8 seconds, unnatural, 10 seconds. The group of skills is relatively spammable when combined.
When combined into an area like Raisu, where it is relatively easy to hit multiple targets (most areas, in fact, are easy to hit at least two targets, frequently 3), the 'low-dps' team builds aren't, in fact, low dps. I'm not personally a fan of spirits, but the spirits can put out single target pressure that is good for the end of the battle.
Regarding backlines; I've always played, once I could, with a type 3 backline as you would describe it. From my early prophecies experiences, I found that I rarely had enough healing to survive due to Mhenlo and Lino. Thus, once I had heroes, I made sure I had plenty. Slower but surefire. If I could kill two groups at once - I typically did. Which correspondingly does cut off time, as you've predicted. My personal experience in the matter.
Now; there's a lot to be said for DPS-Oriented teams. 5 mesmer combo's go fast - other combinations work well, too. They can move faster and more effectively, with a higher margin for skill level cutting back on time. However, being more damage oriented, when the number of enemies is more than the damage can knock back fast, they are fragile under high pressure.
The points you are bringing up are that mesmer and spirits aren't as effective damage; I would argue that they are. Mesmer damage can synergize remarkably well, too.
Personally (and to get back to backlines), I would disagree with only bringing one backline. I think the extra support from doubling the backline is more effective than adding a small percentage of firepower to the offensive line. In many areas I use a triple-backline, other areas I use a double backline (BiP Resto + UA Heal/Prot). There's multiple ways to make a secure backline, and it provides a safety, a manner of guaranteed damage.
I'd add that the use of a solid backline means heroes will not ever be dead and unable to produce DPS; therefore, the DPS is guaranteed. Using a fragile backline in the use of high DPS means lost DPS when any single hero dies, or if the party wipes and has to respawn.
I'm pretty tired and woke up early, so my points are messy and out of order, but hopefully not incomprehensible - forgive me for that. Heck, they may not be entirely valid, correct me if I'm completely wrong on anything.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
recharge lowers mesmer hero DPS
Don't forget FC reduces recharge of mesmer spells now.
Plutoman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Furthermore don't forget FC reduces recharge of mesmer spells now.
That was included - example, e-surge is 15seconds normally. 
SmokingHotImolation
If you consider mesmers (Esurge, Panic and Ineptitude), Rits (SoS and SoGM) and a minion bomber to lack offense, what do you consider a good generic dmg bar? im curious
I don't use discord, but i certainly do rock mesmer and rit heroes at almost all time.
I don't use discord, but i certainly do rock mesmer and rit heroes at almost all time.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFGJack
Quote:
