I have never bought a summoning stone so I dont really think of them as gold sinks (and I have stacks of them).
some materials that dont drop from foes are also money traps (elonian squares, damask, vellum...)..though they can be made from other items, you still need to have the orginal items and cash to craft them.
Summoning stones and gold other gold sinks in GW
cosyfiep
Verene
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Originally Posted by dagrdagaz
A broken Lockpick disappears from the game yes, but most or all Lockpicks that r sold by players r dropped ones.
If i buy Lockpicks, gold changes player, doesnt disappear. That u may break a lockpick is not relevant to that. So, i am thinking buying lockpicks is NOT a gold sick. (Unless u buy them in large quantities from the merchant....) |
How often do you get lockpicks as drops? They're not common at all. I've gotten about equal numbers of black and white dyes (together) as I have lockpicks as drops.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Saldonus Darkholme
Sorry, I disagree. I have had over 500K (Usually float between 700-800K) for at least 2 years now. Whenever I get to around 800-900K, I buy 100 lockpicks, a new armor set, or give it to my wife for HER titles. Once I max my TH title, I won't buy near as many lockpicks.
Now, you COULD say, "Then buy minis or rare weapons from players". However, those are not gold sinks: that is moving gold from one account to another. Also, merchants are only gold sinks when you buy something from them. However, they generate much more gold than they remove from the game. As the game gets older, there is going to be a need to do something about the gold floating in the economy. Otherwise, it becomes as worthless as exp. points! |
Gold is worth a lot more than xp atm.
There is no problem.
Your argument is invalid.
Swingline
I do see what you mean about removing currency from the game especially at this late stage in the game but crafters, merchants and HoM still do it pretty well. With the game being six years though it does start to clutter with piles of cash(mostly in ectos) so I believe some new armor or weapons that costs a great amount of ecto would probably be the best choice. Also I think the NPCs that give out the bounties to gain rep points should ask for 1k at the start.
w00t!
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Originally Posted by Surgo
Yes, the whole point of a gold sink is to remove money from the game. What's the point of removing money from the game? If it isn't to provide downward pressure on prices, I don't see what the point is.
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Gold is in unlimited supply (just like dollars are in the US atm). There are no physical limits on the gold supply, which would make one conclude that prices should inflate, not deflate. The fact that we see consistent deflation in the GW economy proves that point that those forces that remove money from Guild Wars are stronger than the forces that add money.
Probably the other force that removes money from the GW economy is the number of players that continually leave the game. As an example, I was a rich Runescape player, and when I left, I removed money from the game. Most likely permanently, as I can no longer remember my password!
Ghull Ka
I would think that a really effective gold sink would be one which you use more than once.
Paying the trainers to reset your talent specs in WoW, for instance, was a nice gold sink. You did that often. Identification kits and Lockpicks are good gold sinks, since it's something that continually drains gold out of the universe.
Obsidian armor? Vabbian armor? I wouldn't call those "gold sinks" at all. They're super-expensive items, sure, but you don't buy a new set of Obsidian armor once every month.
Paying the trainers to reset your talent specs in WoW, for instance, was a nice gold sink. You did that often. Identification kits and Lockpicks are good gold sinks, since it's something that continually drains gold out of the universe.
Obsidian armor? Vabbian armor? I wouldn't call those "gold sinks" at all. They're super-expensive items, sure, but you don't buy a new set of Obsidian armor once every month.
Iuris
I guess I'm the only one with gold and no meaningful way to spend it. OK, great to be you, sucks to be me...
Sk8tborderx
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Originally Posted by w00t!
That is really an exceptional point, and a highlight of the quirks in the Guild Wars economy.
Gold is in unlimited supply (just like dollars are in the US atm). There are no physical limits on the gold supply, which would make one conclude that prices should inflate, not deflate. The fact that we see consistent deflation in the GW economy proves that point that those forces that remove money from Guild Wars are stronger than the forces that add money. |
Mireles
i don't thing the words "gold sink" and "meaningful" exist in the same thought in this game....There is already a huge gold sink z-rank... spent about 2-3 years throwing money into it for r11 z-rank...may or may not finish it this year... 8,000 z-keys doesn't seem worth it so close to gw2....
Saldonus Darkholme
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Rich people can exist within a healthy economy.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Gold is worth a lot more than xp atm.
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Not to me or the OP, apparently.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
There is no problem.
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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine
Your argument is invalid.
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Hobbs
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Originally Posted by Mireles
i don't thing the words "gold sink" and "meaningful" exist in the same thought in this game....There is already a huge gold sink z-rank... spent about 2-3 years throwing money into it for r11 z-rank...may or may not finish it this year... 8,000 z-keys doesn't seem worth it so close to gw2....
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Reformed
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Originally Posted by Verene
How often do you get lockpicks as drops? They're not common at all.
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majoho
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Originally Posted by Reformed
For some bizarre reason they have also dropped in normal mode EotN for a long time now.
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Mireles
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Originally Posted by Hobbs
That's not a gold sink, it just moves money around. This does not stall inflation.
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Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Mireles
So this forums definition of "gold sink" is things that destroy gold not to be confused with items of value.... you would need a title that involves a NPC like skill capture or another class of armor that is more expensive than obsidian....
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Ghull Ka
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Originally Posted by Mireles
So this forums definition of "gold sink" is things that destroy gold not to be confused with items of value.... you would need a title that involves a NPC like skill capture or another class of armor that is more expensive than obsidian....
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One player selling an item to another playing isn't a gold sink. A gold sink is a mechanic which removes gold from the game.
To wit:
Buying a lockpick from a merchant is a gold sink.
Buying a lockpick from a player is not a gold sink.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink
Also, this is why Obsidian armor is *somewhat* of a gold sink, but it's not really effective as one, because that vendor is only used once, max, per character; usually once, max per account.
ID kits, Salvage kits, lockpicks and the markup at the rune/material trader are our main gold sinks in GW1.
JONO51
All i know is weird shit happens with gw monies. weird shit.
w00t!
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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx
The only way that conclusion makes sense is if player population and supply of items is static. The real reason for price drops is supply and demand.
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"The fact that we see consistent deflation in the GW economy proves that point that those forces that remove money from Guild Wars are stronger than the forces that add money."
Sure, supply and demand plays a dominant role, as it does in any economy. But the simple supply/demand relationship can't explain the fact that we see a general deflation in GW, and not just in the latest tulip item (given that we have an unlimited supply of money, and a limited supply of storage for capital).
The money has to go somewhere, and even if we can't explain exactly where it's going, the forces removing capital from the economy are greater than the forces injecting it, otherwise we'd see inflation in something. I can't find a good example of it anywhere, at least not anywhere that would make an appreciable dent in the economy.
Chico
Want the biggest sink of them all?
Add a Zaishen Casino. Casino style chances be it on slots, dice, roulette, blackjack. Make it so you can actually win big but still lose if you don't know when to quit or just play for too long. I know that for many the Zchest is kind of a gamble but it doesn't have the same gambling feel as a slot machine would.
Add a Zaishen Casino. Casino style chances be it on slots, dice, roulette, blackjack. Make it so you can actually win big but still lose if you don't know when to quit or just play for too long. I know that for many the Zchest is kind of a gamble but it doesn't have the same gambling feel as a slot machine would.
Surgo
That is actually...a really good idea.
Not because of the gold sink bit (because it's unnecessary at the moment), but because playing poker and craps with GW gold with my friends would be amazing. Sardelac sanitarium, now.
Not because of the gold sink bit (because it's unnecessary at the moment), but because playing poker and craps with GW gold with my friends would be amazing. Sardelac sanitarium, now.
Improvavel
Guild Wars economics isn't a free market of supply and demand.
Supply always increase and demand always lower.
There is only a few exceptions like Limited edition Mini Pets.
Clearly the price of those minis keep increasing.
For example the miniature Grawl. I bought 2 a few years ago. The first cost me like 60k and the 2nd some 200k. When the zaishen keys and the zaishen betting house started to kick in those grawls were like 450-600k. These days they are 1 million or more.
Same with celestial pigs - there was few of them and they went from 100-200K at the time of their appearance to the 1 million plus range.
This show inflation - you have a fixed number of items that is much lower than the population and so the value keeps going up.
And then you can have inflation cause by a reduction of supply/increase of demand and can have deflation caused by increase of supply/decrease of demand.
For example, when the Shadow Form Plains farm was at its highest ecto price dropped to 4.5-4.8k.
Was that because there was less money in the game? No the supply simply increase so much there wasn't enough demand.
After the nerfs, ecto price went up. Then came the SC, ecto price went down. Dhuum arrived, ecto price went up.
What is the ecto future? Go down unless Anet yet again artificially intervenes to reduce drop rate.
Why are armbraces going down? We had the DwG speed clear and now we have 7 heroes, both of which increase supply and reduce demand.
The GW2 reward calculator effect - mini pets spiked due to increase demand. Now they returned to normal, and prices will keep going down.
Deflation of prices is the natural way of things - it means a society/population is richer.
But that doesn't mean GW doesn't have more money in existence today - the supply of money is always increasing.
Supply always increase and demand always lower.
There is only a few exceptions like Limited edition Mini Pets.
Clearly the price of those minis keep increasing.
For example the miniature Grawl. I bought 2 a few years ago. The first cost me like 60k and the 2nd some 200k. When the zaishen keys and the zaishen betting house started to kick in those grawls were like 450-600k. These days they are 1 million or more.
Same with celestial pigs - there was few of them and they went from 100-200K at the time of their appearance to the 1 million plus range.
This show inflation - you have a fixed number of items that is much lower than the population and so the value keeps going up.
And then you can have inflation cause by a reduction of supply/increase of demand and can have deflation caused by increase of supply/decrease of demand.
For example, when the Shadow Form Plains farm was at its highest ecto price dropped to 4.5-4.8k.
Was that because there was less money in the game? No the supply simply increase so much there wasn't enough demand.
After the nerfs, ecto price went up. Then came the SC, ecto price went down. Dhuum arrived, ecto price went up.
What is the ecto future? Go down unless Anet yet again artificially intervenes to reduce drop rate.
Why are armbraces going down? We had the DwG speed clear and now we have 7 heroes, both of which increase supply and reduce demand.
The GW2 reward calculator effect - mini pets spiked due to increase demand. Now they returned to normal, and prices will keep going down.
Deflation of prices is the natural way of things - it means a society/population is richer.
But that doesn't mean GW doesn't have more money in existence today - the supply of money is always increasing.
Moonstalker
I'm not one to sit on the economy and try to understand it. So I don't quite understand the purpose of needing gold sinks. I know that loot scaling was an attempt to lower the amount of gold going into the system, but I don't know the importance of it.
What does less gold in the system do?
What does less gold in the system do?
Sk8tborderx
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Originally Posted by Moonstalker
I'm not one to sit on the economy and try to understand it. So I don't quite understand the purpose of needing gold sinks. I know that loot scaling was an attempt to lower the amount of gold going into the system, but I don't know the importance of it.
What does less gold in the system do? |
If you want a simplified answer, it keeps player driven prices in check.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Iuris
Any ideas for a gold sink that doesn't affect gameplay?
It needs to be: -temporary in nature (otherwise we only get a new buffer sink) -attractive enought that people will be willing to pay for it I mean, people obviously do buy consets, because they do affect gameplay. And they use them, so new consumables would at least be sure to get bought. I'm not sure they'd go for purely cosmetic ones, at least not enough that they'd be willing to spend a lot of money on them. (don't get me wrong, I just can't think of any cosmetic ones that people would go for, I'd love for them to exist). |
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Originally Posted by w00t!
Probably the other force that removes money from the GW economy is the number of players that continually leave the game. As an example, I was a rich Runescape player, and when I left, I removed money from the game. Most likely permanently, as I can no longer remember my password!
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Ensign
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Originally Posted by Surgo
I use a basket of ectoplasm, armbraces, alcohol, sweets, and a few other items to track inflation.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Moonstalker
I'm not one to sit on the economy and try to understand it. So I don't quite understand the purpose of needing gold sinks. I know that loot scaling was an attempt to lower the amount of gold going into the system, but I don't know the importance of it.
What does less gold in the system do? |
The caveats being:
1) Most gold sinks can be considered one-time hits to the price level; newly introduced gold sinks will cause a revaluation, gold sinks in place from the beginning help define what the base case is. Neither has any long term effects on inflation.
2) It's pretty damn hard to move the monetary base 6 years into the lifetime of a game. Changes from gold farming get washed out by the sea of cash already in game.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by w00t!
The fact that we see consistent deflation in the GW economy proves that point that those forces that remove money from Guild Wars are stronger than the forces that add money.
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Originally Posted by w00t!
Probably the other force that removes money from the GW economy is the number of players that continually leave the game.
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Quaker
I think that, no matter what gold sinks there are, there will be players who will store up their gold anyway. Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between real life, where accumulating wealth and saving for later are practical, and games, where imaginary gold is meant to be spent on imaginary things, and where there's no point to saving.
w00t!
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Originally Posted by Ensign
It shows that people are finding things they want to spend money on faster than they're accumulating money; which really isn't terribly surprising given the HoM update.
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Gold Sinks are like the Fed! Solve our economic woes through central planning!
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Sure, but unless there's a demographic bias on people quitting the game that shouldn't have any fundamental effect on the price level (as a first order effect; you'd <edit> have some sort of second order effect from increased market friction that isn't immediately obvious in its effect on the price level).
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I have to add, in that I'm no Keynesian, I don't think, nor do I care, whether we can determine the root causes of all the forces shaping supply and demand. We only have to look at the results, which is that Guild Wars has and continues to experience general deflation.
Good discussion btw.
AngelWJedi
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Originally Posted by Quaker
I think that, no matter what gold sinks there are, there will be players who will store up their gold anyway. Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between real life, where accumulating wealth and saving for later are practical, and games, where imaginary gold is meant to be spent on imaginary things, and where there's no point to saving.
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sirblack
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Originally Posted by Quaker
I think that, no matter what gold sinks there are, there will be players who will store up their gold anyway. Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between real life, where accumulating wealth and saving for later are practical, and games, where imaginary gold is meant to be spent on imaginary things, and where there's no point to saving.
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And of course, it doesn't just have to be "new" things. Other changes have influenced the perceived value of some things. For instance: Years ago, many players might not have considered the Party/Sweet/Drunkard titles worth spending money on. But after the HoM reward details were finally released, suddenly those titles could have become worthwhile to people who needed those additional titles for HoM points or GWAMM.
thedarkmarine
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Originally Posted by Saldonus Darkholme
Yes, they can. That isn't the argument.
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| Not to me or the OP, apparently. |
Quote:
| For you, perhaps. |
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| Wrong. My argument is valid. Yours is flawed. |
mrmango
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Originally Posted by Iuris
I guess I'm the only one with gold and no meaningful way to spend it. OK, great to be you, sucks to be me...
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I think the consensus of the thread thus far is that deflation is going to happen with time, the original calls of inflation happening seem to be quiet, for good reason.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Quaker
I think that, no matter what gold sinks there are, there will be players who will store up their gold anyway. Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between real life, where accumulating wealth and saving for later are practical, and games, where imaginary gold is meant to be spent on imaginary things, and where there's no point to saving.
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Lensor
I think the gold sinks in GW are quite fine. Gold does have value in GW, it is still used for trades and the economy in general is deflating (ie value of gold going up).
If someone has so much money they dont know what to do with it, they could always max out zaishen or something (would not sink gold per se, but redistribute their gold to someone else who in turn can sink it). What could be needed though is more item sinks, especially for the lower-end stuff, but not sure how to make that happen without some major backlash. For instance, things like inscriptions are very nice from a convenience perspective, but the ease of making an exact skin+stat combination made a lot of "perfect" items practically worthless.
If someone has so much money they dont know what to do with it, they could always max out zaishen or something (would not sink gold per se, but redistribute their gold to someone else who in turn can sink it). What could be needed though is more item sinks, especially for the lower-end stuff, but not sure how to make that happen without some major backlash. For instance, things like inscriptions are very nice from a convenience perspective, but the ease of making an exact skin+stat combination made a lot of "perfect" items practically worthless.
cthulhu reborn
The problem in any game is that some people are real trade RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs (no offence meant) and some people are not.
For a lot of people the game isn't about trading and having tons of cash. They have a hard time even getting their characters in elite armour sets and getting 100k together and such. They could, but they don't.
Others love getting tons of cash and really rare items and such. Trading armbraces as currency etc. So two extremes in the same economy. Maybe for the really rich they should get some sort of rare mini pet trader who takes armbraces by the hundreds for very rare pets or something like that. You could even make it a gamble, for every x armbraces there's a % chance to get a mini. They already introduced very rare mini pets so that won't shock anyone.
But I am not sure if this will be good for the economy. If it's very hard to get or very expensive rather, then it may sink a lot of money from the economy. Will that increase gold seller activity? There's also that to consider.
For a lot of people the game isn't about trading and having tons of cash. They have a hard time even getting their characters in elite armour sets and getting 100k together and such. They could, but they don't.
Others love getting tons of cash and really rare items and such. Trading armbraces as currency etc. So two extremes in the same economy. Maybe for the really rich they should get some sort of rare mini pet trader who takes armbraces by the hundreds for very rare pets or something like that. You could even make it a gamble, for every x armbraces there's a % chance to get a mini. They already introduced very rare mini pets so that won't shock anyone.
But I am not sure if this will be good for the economy. If it's very hard to get or very expensive rather, then it may sink a lot of money from the economy. Will that increase gold seller activity? There's also that to consider.
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
The problem in any game is that some people are real trade RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs (no offence meant) and some people are not.
For a lot of people the game isn't about trading and having tons of cash. They have a hard time even getting their characters in elite armour sets and getting 100k together and such. They could, but they don't. Others love getting tons of cash and really rare items and such. Trading armbraces as currency etc. So two extremes in the same economy. Maybe for the really rich they should get some sort of rare mini pet trader who takes armbraces by the hundreds for very rare pets or something like that. You could even make it a gamble, for every x armbraces there's a % chance to get a mini. They already introduced very rare mini pets so that won't shock anyone. But I am not sure if this will be good for the economy. If it's very hard to get or very expensive rather, then it may sink a lot of money from the economy. Will that increase gold seller activity? There's also that to consider. |
newbie_of_doom
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Originally Posted by Nyta
Having a weapon mod trader that works similar to the material and rune traders would be nice. They could remove money in the same way that other traders do.
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Originally Posted by aspi
New high end high res armours would be a nice gold sink imo.
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Originally Posted by Ling
What about dedicating mini's, doesn't this effectively remove money from the game?
I buy a mini ghostly hero for 1750e, dedicate it and resell it for 1000e.. that's 750e removed (or am I missing something here? :3) |
In the whole process, you have bought a ghostly hero from someone for 1750 ectos. This person now has 1750 ectos, and you have -1750 ectos.
You now sell the dedicated ghostly hero for 1000 ectos, meaning that you yourself will have -750 ectos and someone else now has -1000 ectos.
1750-750-1000 = 0, meaning that no money has been removed from the game.
When money is to be removed from a game, it has to be 'given' to NPCs.
Surgo
One thing has been removed in that example though -- an undedicated ghostly hero -- so it's not exactly zero-sum.
You know that I'm sure, and your point still stands exactly as-is, but it's worth mentioning. Said undedicated minis can be a currency in their own right.
You know that I'm sure, and your point still stands exactly as-is, but it's worth mentioning. Said undedicated minis can be a currency in their own right.
newbie_of_doom
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Originally Posted by Surgo
One thing has been removed in that example though -- an undedicated ghostly hero -- so it's not exactly zero-sum.
You know that I'm sure, and your point still stands exactly as-is, but it's worth mentioning. Said undedicated minis can be a currency in their own right. |
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Originally Posted by Yol
A year-long boardwalk-type place with an entrance fee would be a good gold sink. 1k to get in for an hour (or however long), giving access to solo or small team mini games (not necessarily dragon arena, costume brawl and rings, to keep these ones special) that cost xyz gold to play and reward a few gamer points or kurz/lux points or whatever (but not gold or items). This would obviously take programming time and resources, but I'd be interested in this and maybe it could be a tester for the mingames in GW2.
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w00t!
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Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom
I missed this post earlier, but this is rather good idea. A new title could even be implented for solo mini-games.
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