Why only Shelter?
reaper with no name
I've seen quite a few people say that on a soul twisting hero, shelter should be the only defensive spirit used. So my question is, why? What's wrong with displacement and union?
Aljasha
I guess there's nothing wrong with the other spirits in functionality. However you need nothing more than Shelter in most areas.
mugen
shelter = unique
displacement = great
union is far in comparaison, cool but not as impressive effect... -20 dmgs .. when 5 mobs are hitting you @ 200 dmgs, doesnt help too much. The other does. Most team can work without it. (i am ising it, i dont think its bad)
displacement = great
union is far in comparaison, cool but not as impressive effect... -20 dmgs .. when 5 mobs are hitting you @ 200 dmgs, doesnt help too much. The other does. Most team can work without it. (i am ising it, i dont think its bad)
LexTalionis
Soul Twisting only gives you three charges every 15 seconds. When running a Soul Twisting ritualist, you're primarily doing it for Shelter as heroes aren't particularly good with Protective Spirit and Shelter can deal with rapid target shifts or AoE damage hitting your entire party, which Protective Spirit can't do very well. Given that in some Hard mode areas, things are hitting for over 100-400 damage, Shelter is the most reliable way of reducing this damage to manageable packets and it is universal (and usually prevents more damage than Union will).
Given these suppositions, the function of the ST ritualist is to keep Shelter up all the time. If you fill the bar with other spirits, there's a chance that they'll use up all 3 ST charges with Shelter > Union > Displacement, then cast Shelter without Soul Twisting and have it go on a 45 second cooldown, and this risk is not one people are fond of taking.
Personally, I find that two of the three spirits are manageable for the most part without causing severe "Oh no, Shelter is on cooldown again" issues except in very specific places (Forgewight HM, for example), but one would be the safest.
Given these suppositions, the function of the ST ritualist is to keep Shelter up all the time. If you fill the bar with other spirits, there's a chance that they'll use up all 3 ST charges with Shelter > Union > Displacement, then cast Shelter without Soul Twisting and have it go on a 45 second cooldown, and this risk is not one people are fond of taking.
Personally, I find that two of the three spirits are manageable for the most part without causing severe "Oh no, Shelter is on cooldown again" issues except in very specific places (Forgewight HM, for example), but one would be the safest.
Skye Marin
Union only prevents as much damage as it has life, which is about 275-350 HP at full communing, depending on spawning power. That amount of health is equal to a single low-spec heal party (at 12, one can provide over 500 HP), or a pair of Spirit Lights. Considering a single Union tick can prevent damage in the hundreds, you can see how Shelter is a much more efficient use of a Soul Twisting Charge, and that most healing spells are more efficient than Union for keeping your party alive.
Unlike most protection spells (Protective Spirit, Guardian, Shielding Hands, etc...), Union has a very set number of triggers before it expires, which makes it less valuable in high pressure, and easily comparable to simple healing.
I find Displacement handy to block disrupting attack skills. Having just the pair prevents a long recharge for Shelter. Besides, you can fill the bar with tons of other great Rit skills or off-profession things like Cry of Frustration, Strength of Honor, and Mark of Pain.
Unlike most protection spells (Protective Spirit, Guardian, Shielding Hands, etc...), Union has a very set number of triggers before it expires, which makes it less valuable in high pressure, and easily comparable to simple healing.
I find Displacement handy to block disrupting attack skills. Having just the pair prevents a long recharge for Shelter. Besides, you can fill the bar with tons of other great Rit skills or off-profession things like Cry of Frustration, Strength of Honor, and Mark of Pain.
heavenlight
I'll assume a ST defensive Rit spec 12+1+2 communing and 12+2 spawning power (the build at gwpvx has all sup runes).
A level 12 union spirit @14 SP has 374 hp. If you micro (which most players bringing ST def rit do) and use AoU pre-aggro it can take on 748 damage before dying. Heal party doesn't come anywhere near that level. Besides, heal party @15e is energy intense and at 2sec recharge, it's suicidal to put it on your hero bar.
It's also inappropriate to compare it to healing skills. Damage reduction is always superior to healing up lost health because your utilities heroes, instead of having to waste time healing, could instead focus on doing damage. Not to mention that you might get spiked and die before any healing could be done.
A level 12 union spirit @14 SP has 374 hp. If you micro (which most players bringing ST def rit do) and use AoU pre-aggro it can take on 748 damage before dying. Heal party doesn't come anywhere near that level. Besides, heal party @15e is energy intense and at 2sec recharge, it's suicidal to put it on your hero bar.
It's also inappropriate to compare it to healing skills. Damage reduction is always superior to healing up lost health because your utilities heroes, instead of having to waste time healing, could instead focus on doing damage. Not to mention that you might get spiked and die before any healing could be done.
chuckles79
Shelter stops spikes and massive damage, Displacement gives blocking, and Union only deflects 15 damage.
If you are doing HM, Shelter is the only one that is going to make a big difference. Blocking is nice, but even AI physicals are gimped in HM. Union wouldn't make a dent in even the weakest of HM attacks, unless you are already protted up the wazoo.
If you are doing HM, Shelter is the only one that is going to make a big difference. Blocking is nice, but even AI physicals are gimped in HM. Union wouldn't make a dent in even the weakest of HM attacks, unless you are already protted up the wazoo.
Dzjudz
Because if you have three spirits that all die quickly, ST can't keep up with the hero recasting them. Best solution is to just have Shelter (the best of the three, with Displacement coming in second and Union third) and then a couple of offensive spirits. Taking two (Shelter + Displacement) might work too. In addition, heroes don't know that Union should be cast after Shelter anyway.
Gabs88
Soul Twisting only has 3 charges \ 15 seconds. If you put Union + Shelter + Displacement on the same hero, it is likely to use all the spirits two times in the duration of 15 seconds while under heavy fire. Because they die very quickly when really needed. If a hero does that, the result will be that you get 3 defensive spirits on a 45 second cooldown and the hero which was godlike for the first 15 seconds of the fight. Is now useless.
If you put only one defencive spirit on it, it is far less likely to mess up.
If you put only one defencive spirit on it, it is far less likely to mess up.
Voodoo Rage
OK, I'm sold. Took off Union, and went out and picked a fight with Myish Lady of the Lake and her mob. Not a single death. Very impressed.
Couple questions.
Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).
Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)
How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?
What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.
Any love for Spirit's Gift?
For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.
Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal).
Couple questions.
Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).
Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)
How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?
What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.
Any love for Spirit's Gift?
For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.
Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal).
LexTalionis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage
OK, I'm sold. Took off Union, and went out and picked a fight with Myish Lady of the Lake and her mob. Not a single death. Very impressed.
Couple questions.
Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).
Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)
How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?
What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.
Any love for Spirit's Gift?
For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.
Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal). I can't speak for everyone, but if you're interested in my take on skills that work fine with Soul Twisting, I've got it up here http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi under the second from the top build. Note that Ghostly Haste only makes sense if you're bringing long recharge spells like Aegis and Shield of Absorption.
Spirit's Gift has a range of "nearby", which is not ideal for most battle situations.
Aegis isn't as counterproductive as it seems because it's not cast often and block rate is multiplicative, so even if it's up at the same time as Displacement, it will help slightly (and is more useful when Displacement falls or when you need to disable Displacement to prioritise Shelter.)
edit: Also note that since you only have 6 points of leeway unless you're willing to drop Communing a little, Shouts (which are time efficient and great to get a little extra out of people with important time-consuming duties) aren't that great because Command isn't particularly good at 6. Still viable though. Armor of Unfeeling does work on life loss from Communing Spirits, but it's not particularly dramatic in terms of necessity. If you have Soul Twisting, 50% more HP for a spirit (best case scenario) is usually not worth a skill slot compared to just re-casting the spirit.
Couple questions.
Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).
Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)
How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?
What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.
Any love for Spirit's Gift?
For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.
Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal). I can't speak for everyone, but if you're interested in my take on skills that work fine with Soul Twisting, I've got it up here http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi under the second from the top build. Note that Ghostly Haste only makes sense if you're bringing long recharge spells like Aegis and Shield of Absorption.
Spirit's Gift has a range of "nearby", which is not ideal for most battle situations.
Aegis isn't as counterproductive as it seems because it's not cast often and block rate is multiplicative, so even if it's up at the same time as Displacement, it will help slightly (and is more useful when Displacement falls or when you need to disable Displacement to prioritise Shelter.)
edit: Also note that since you only have 6 points of leeway unless you're willing to drop Communing a little, Shouts (which are time efficient and great to get a little extra out of people with important time-consuming duties) aren't that great because Command isn't particularly good at 6. Still viable though. Armor of Unfeeling does work on life loss from Communing Spirits, but it's not particularly dramatic in terms of necessity. If you have Soul Twisting, 50% more HP for a spirit (best case scenario) is usually not worth a skill slot compared to just re-casting the spirit.
LexTalionis
You can do Shelter 3 times within those 15 seconds. If your Shelter is dying every 5 seconds, you have bigger issues to worry about than Armor of Unfeeling.
Still, if you like it, use it. I see no empirical difference whether I use it or not, so I don't (Armor of Unfeeling only affects spirits that are already out, so all you're getting is the equivalent of 5 hits ASSUMING the spirit was at full life). Also, ST should be running Communing at 16, so you get more like 10 hits, since you're using a minimum of 12 Spawning Power.
Still, if you like it, use it. I see no empirical difference whether I use it or not, so I don't (Armor of Unfeeling only affects spirits that are already out, so all you're getting is the equivalent of 5 hits ASSUMING the spirit was at full life). Also, ST should be running Communing at 16, so you get more like 10 hits, since you're using a minimum of 12 Spawning Power.
Gabs88
IMO running ST with +1+2 communing and +2 Spawnpower is better, 14 is a breakpoint for boon of creation (6e instead of 5) so it is practically a must and the additional 1 point of communing doesn't give much.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Quote:
It's not going to last 33 seconds unless you're in an area so light in pressure that you probably didn't need Shelter in the first place. I've already told you my *opinion* about AoU and why I find AoU unnecessary (there is an opportunity cost of a myriad of skills I find more useful), but that's just my viewpoint.
AoU, like both Shelter and Displacement can be pre-cast before you pull mobs in. Like I have said, even if AoU is useful for the length of your Shelter and Displacement per mob, it has already worth a skill slot.
Your opportunity cost of using Aegis and SoA on your rit, instead of your necro, is just not as worth it but that is also just my opinion.
|
Still, if you like it, use it. I see no empirical difference whether I use it or not, so I don't (Armor of Unfeeling only affects spirits that are already out, so all you're getting is the equivalent of 5 hits ASSUMING the spirit was at full life). Also, ST should be running Communing at 16, so you get more like 10 hits, since you're using a minimum of 12 Spawning Power.
Whether AoU is worth bringing or not would also depend on the area and the situation. If I remember correctly, you are only getting 2 more hits in, so about 9 hits with 16 to communing and 13 spawning power. For that you have to take a 75hp loss, whereas AoU would grant you more than just those 2 hits, even with a minor communing rune. AoU is currently underrated.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
|
Actually AoU lasts much longer than its recharge of 20s at decent communing level, has the other side benefit of making your spirits (which are lower level) immune to critical attacks, and it cannot be stripped.
|
I don't ask my Soul Twisting Ritualist to tank, in heavy pressure with massive amounts of large AoE damage, you're probably going to end up flagging him somewhere far away and out of sight anywise, so 40 more health as opposed to a major rune is easy for me to give up. Practically speaking, putting Mistrust, blind or an interrupt on your ST ritualist is going to prevent more damage to your spirits than Armor of Unfeeling will. Just opinion, though. It's a question of opportunity cost. If you have the space for it and can't think of anything better, take it.
Practically speaking mistrust, blind, and interrupt are insufficient to protect your level 11-13 Shelter from being killed in HM. There is not much of an opportunity cost for skills if you dont bring AoU on your ST rit. Most other secondary profession skills are better carried by a necro anyway.
LexTalionis
Incorrect. It only lasts for spirits already created at the time you used it. The instant you need to resummon Shelter, the new spirit created does not benefit from AoU. This is an issue because it has a 20 second recharge and is NOT a spell so - spell recharge does nothing. (HSR will)
Technically speaking, if a monster is going to drop Churning Earth on top of Shelter, a way of stopping that is going to do far more than AoU ever will.
Dzjudz
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
(HSR will)
HSR mods only ever affect spells. Other sources can bring recharge down (e.g. Essence of Celerity).
LexTalionis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzjudz
HSR mods only ever affect spells. Other sources can bring recharge down (e.g. Essence of Celerity).
Well, that makes AoU even worse then.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Incorrect. It only lasts for spirits already created at the time you used it. The instant you need to resummon Shelter, the new spirit created does not benefit from AoU. This is an issue because it has a 20 second recharge and is NOT a spell so - spell recharge does nothing. (HSR will)
That is not what I said. AoU lasts for 33s at level 14 communing, so even if it recharges at 20s, its effect still lasts for 33s.
However, the important point is how long would Shelter last? That depends on the area, situation, and AoU would make it last longer when used at the right time. Instead of bringing skills like Aegis and SoA on your ST rit, it makes more sense for them to be brought by a necro hero and have your ST rit bring AoU instead to extend the life of both your Shelter and Displacement. Even if AoU is only used once, per mob, to double the life of both Shelter and Displacement and making them immune to critical attacks, it is already worth a skill slot.
Voodoo Rage
Now given, proper tactics should not have your spirits taking any direct damage but it should be mentioned that if a spirit is attacked they are prone to critical hits by a high level foe since there is such a big level differential.
I really don't see any downside to bringing AoU. It's cheap, does not have a big casting time, and clearly does have a benefit. The ST bar is fairly compressed anyway (you really don't want your ST bar full of a bunch of secondary skills) so it's not like you are really hurting for an extra skill slot.
Daesu LexTalionis
If something is attacking Shelter in HM, it being immune to critical hits is the LEAST of your concerns.
Look, if Shelter dies in 3 seconds after Armor of Unfeeling was used, your AoU was useful for all of 3 seconds. It's not going to last 33 seconds unless you're in an area so light in pressure that you probably didn't need Shelter in the first place. I've already told you my *opinion* about AoU and why I find AoU unnecessary (there is an opportunity cost of a myriad of skills I find more useful), but that's just my viewpoint. If you still want to bring it, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I don't really want to rain on your parade, so go ahead and bring it already!
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Look, if Shelter dies in 3 seconds after Armor of Unfeeling was used, your AoU was useful for all of 3 seconds. |
Quote:
Your opportunity cost of using Aegis and SoA on your rit, instead of your necro, is just not as worth it but that is also just my opinion.
Quote:
If you still want to bring it, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I don't really want to rain on your parade, so go ahead and bring it already!
Then you didn't have to reply to my post did you? 
heavenlight
After reading the thread, I got interested and started experimenting with different builds. I started with a bar with just ST, Shelter, AoU and Boon of creation which left me with 4 slots to fill. There are two problems with filling the slots:
1) It is very important to keep the energy up, so unless you have a BiP necro, putting on energy intensive spells is out of the question. Aegis and SoA are ok, but in intense and prolong fights, the energy issue come up eventually, at least for me it does. 2) Are there any useful viable skills around? One option is to go /Me and go 10 dom with signet of disruption, signet of weariness, signet of distraction, guilt or unnatural signet or go 10 insp with power drain, leech signet, WNWN, hex eater signet, drain enchantment, ether signet, drain delusions, or channeling. Another alternative is to just spec 10+1 into channeling and get access to spirit siphon. Spirit siphon allows you to be more generous with energy and you can put on lamentation, binding chains, Ancestor's Rage, Splinter, Gaze from beyond, renewing surge, or essence strike. All the skills mentioned are what I have considered, and they might be better skills around that I may have missed. I find that /Me gives my rit a more active feel to it instead of standing around wanding. Noticeably more damage prevention can be observed in battles. While speccing into channeling is ok at most, since the damage isn't all that great @11 channeling. Weighing the alternatives against the option of bringing shelter + union + displacement and actively micro-ing which to disable for key battles, I would say bringing on displacement (disabled except for key battles since I usually bring an MM) and going /Me with either dom or insp seems to work best for me. But that's just me and you should test it out with your own hero team to find the best results.
Dzjudz
The few times I take a Shelter I do the channeling option heaven: ST, Shelter, Dissonance, Optional Spirit, Spirit Siphon, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage, Boon of Creation. Seems to work best.
DokkyDok
Just run the generic SoGM rit but with ST as its elite and Shelter over Dissonance.
Microing is lame. FoxBat
Found an interesting alternative if you're tired of shelter going on recharge when using multiple spirits. Equip your hero with a "brawn not brains" inscription on a wand or spear, and put a shield in their offhand. That will give them 25e before morale. As shelter costs 25e, this makes it almost impossible for them to cast it without soul twisting active. The energy savings on not casting 25e spirits also more than makes up for the smaller pool.
Wenspire
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
1) It is very important to keep the energy up, so unless you have a BiP necro, putting on energy intensive spells is out of the question. Aegis and SoA are ok, but in intense and prolong fights, the energy issue come up eventually, at least for me it does.
Energetic Was Lee Sa works well for me for the extra EN. FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenspire
Energetic Was Lee Sa works well for me for the extra EN.
Don't heroes near always drop it *immediately* instead of waiting out the regen?
LexTalionis |
