Benchmarks for hero builds
heavenlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutoman
I don't play with glass cannon builds for the most part, so my times will probably be slower, but if I do any of the areas that are agreed upon here I'll grab a screenshot of my time. I'm not going to plan for any of them, but if I do them in any of my daily activities I'll gladly do that.
Quote: Originally Posted by mugen
~45 mins HM tomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-7AsBOrx8A)/ easily beatable, but it's a start until someone does far better with H 
easy to test : elite zone / entrance is free / immediate from town Tombs is actually a great idea Mugen! Since you're required to vanquish all foes before proceeding, it probably provides a more accurate representation of efficiency than other elite areas. If no one objects to it, I'll include ToPK as the third area.
easy to test : elite zone / entrance is free / immediate from town Tombs is actually a great idea Mugen! Since you're required to vanquish all foes before proceeding, it probably provides a more accurate representation of efficiency than other elite areas. If no one objects to it, I'll include ToPK as the third area.
Plutoman
Remember the special in tombs; it's biased towards dervish's, mesmers, ritualists, and assassins. It's still a good area, but there is a bias for sure.
Xenomortis
If you're going to call a build bad, you're required to elaborate.
Dzjudz
The whole game is biased towards mesmers and ritualists .
.
Plutoman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzjudz
The whole game is biased towards mesmers and ritualists .
I can't honestly bring myself to disagree with you there. But you can't forget the dervish overhaul either Ah well, ANet tries, they have a lot of work to try to keep with balancing things to try and keep everyone happy.
.
I can't honestly bring myself to disagree with you there. But you can't forget the dervish overhaul either Ah well, ANet tries, they have a lot of work to try to keep with balancing things to try and keep everyone happy.
heavenlight
Alright I just did my Vloxen's run. I brought along my defensive team with an ER and mix-match offensive/def spirits Razah/Xandra.
Micro: Disable Displacement at start, enable Displacement at Zoldrak. No flagging, no balling of enemies. Just aggro and kill.
Total run time is 30 minutes. Nec skills bars are not blanked. And yes, I run discord because I'm lazy.
I thought I captured the screenshot at the end but turns out I didn't and
have to recapture the times back in outpost.
After I'm done, I thought I could do better by removing the discord hero
and balling enemies up nicely. So I swap out Livia and put in an RoJ monk, put putrid bile back on MoW, put def spirits on Razah, change Xandra to channeling so that I can exploit splinter weapon with bunch up foes. The whole run turned out to feel much faster than before (the first boss got one-shot by RoJ, I deal many many yellow numbers with splinter weapon, etc.) But guess what, the whole run came out to be 31 minutes...
Anyway, I think 25 minutes is definitely possible with a team with more offensive power. Yes, Dzjudz, I'm waiting for your screenshots
Micro: Disable Displacement at start, enable Displacement at Zoldrak. No flagging, no balling of enemies. Just aggro and kill.
Total run time is 30 minutes. Nec skills bars are not blanked. And yes, I run discord because I'm lazy.
I thought I captured the screenshot at the end but turns out I didn't and
have to recapture the times back in outpost.
After I'm done, I thought I could do better by removing the discord hero
and balling enemies up nicely. So I swap out Livia and put in an RoJ monk, put putrid bile back on MoW, put def spirits on Razah, change Xandra to channeling so that I can exploit splinter weapon with bunch up foes. The whole run turned out to feel much faster than before (the first boss got one-shot by RoJ, I deal many many yellow numbers with splinter weapon, etc.) But guess what, the whole run came out to be 31 minutes...
Anyway, I think 25 minutes is definitely possible with a team with more offensive power. Yes, Dzjudz, I'm waiting for your screenshots
Essence Snow
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
blanked out skill bars
Just out of curiosity...what's the point of having "benchmark builds" if your going to blank them out?
Just out of curiosity...what's the point of having "benchmark builds" if your going to blank them out?
Jeydra
Why not just go down the list of ZBs ... I have absolutely no reason to do Vloxen's HM, and it's not a short excursion either so I'm not going to bother until the next Zoldark ZB shows up.
FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Just out of curiosity...what's the point of having "benchmark builds" if your going to blank them out?
The benchmark is times, not builds.
LexTalionis
And so it came to pass that the next challenge in the path of Dwayna was the dread Tomb of Primeval Kings, an area fraught with Cries of Frustration and many patrolling fiends, whereupon a single bad pull would mean death.
"Dwaynaway is lacking!" say the heretics. "Her apostles are of a small intellect and bringing it would culiminate in a pandemonium of bad aggro and meteors!"
Ye of little faith, do you not trust in Dwayna? True, the Tomb may be a formidable foe for the orthodox, and Melonni may have the mental disposition of a brainless Melandru lackey, but such a thing is possible if one enlists the forces of her mortal enemy, Grenth. Against such a tremendous threat to humanity, even these bitter and eternal rivals must occasionally unite.
An apostle of Dwayna, channeling her healing powers through a focus such as a staff, is able to sustain the skeletal minions of Grenth, most of which are only marginally more stupid than Melonni, therefore only the most cunning, the Fiends of Bone shall be appropriate. Energy is not a concern as Grenth shall donate his Powers of Blood.
If one is able to focus his mind in Pious Concentration, you shall find that the Cries of Frustration from enemies (though unable to foil her enchantments, they may occasionally detract you from channeling the holy powers of Dwayna or casting thy Signet of Pious Light) will be alleviated by a wave of healing. Do not fear the Worms shaped like unmentionables, Dwayna shall heal thy wounds. Dwayna is strong.
Be careful, cautious and valiant and you shall prevail. Go, in Dwayna's peace.
Total time: 33 minutes.
"Dwaynaway is lacking!" say the heretics. "Her apostles are of a small intellect and bringing it would culiminate in a pandemonium of bad aggro and meteors!"
Ye of little faith, do you not trust in Dwayna? True, the Tomb may be a formidable foe for the orthodox, and Melonni may have the mental disposition of a brainless Melandru lackey, but such a thing is possible if one enlists the forces of her mortal enemy, Grenth. Against such a tremendous threat to humanity, even these bitter and eternal rivals must occasionally unite.
An apostle of Dwayna, channeling her healing powers through a focus such as a staff, is able to sustain the skeletal minions of Grenth, most of which are only marginally more stupid than Melonni, therefore only the most cunning, the Fiends of Bone shall be appropriate. Energy is not a concern as Grenth shall donate his Powers of Blood.
If one is able to focus his mind in Pious Concentration, you shall find that the Cries of Frustration from enemies (though unable to foil her enchantments, they may occasionally detract you from channeling the holy powers of Dwayna or casting thy Signet of Pious Light) will be alleviated by a wave of healing. Do not fear the Worms shaped like unmentionables, Dwayna shall heal thy wounds. Dwayna is strong.
Be careful, cautious and valiant and you shall prevail. Go, in Dwayna's peace.
Total time: 33 minutes.
Essence Snow
well then here we go
Vloxen 18min...only micro was flagging as full group..no prot spirit, no shelter, almost 0 prot.
Can been done faster easily with more micro and some protspirit or shelter.
Vloxen 18min...only micro was flagging as full group..no prot spirit, no shelter, almost 0 prot.
Can been done faster easily with more micro and some protspirit or shelter.
heavenlight
In light of Essense Snow's results, I need some input from someone well-versed in Vloxen's Excavations.
Is there a shortcut through level 2 of Vloxen's? I'm not talking about using necrotic traversal and things like that. I mean, I learned from wiki and experience that the path is almost S-shape like and spans almost the whole level. If there's a path to complete level 2 in 10 minutes by using the shortcut, I would like to know.
If no such shortcut exists, I would like to know if it's possible to get through level 2 in 10 minutes if all foes are required to be killed along the path. No use of tactics such as Necrotic Traversal, SF to run through mobs, etc is allowed.
Is there a shortcut through level 2 of Vloxen's? I'm not talking about using necrotic traversal and things like that. I mean, I learned from wiki and experience that the path is almost S-shape like and spans almost the whole level. If there's a path to complete level 2 in 10 minutes by using the shortcut, I would like to know.
If no such shortcut exists, I would like to know if it's possible to get through level 2 in 10 minutes if all foes are required to be killed along the path. No use of tactics such as Necrotic Traversal, SF to run through mobs, etc is allowed.
Dzjudz
Jeydra, Vloxen is normally around 30 minutes, fast times should be around 20 minutes. It's directly accessible from an outpost. Doesn't get much faster than that while still being able to show time differences between builds. It's only a pity there are no exclusive chest skins from Vloxen 
.
People, please show all skill bars, yourself and heroes. Essence Snow might well be using Necrotic Traversal + Shadow Form on his bar to run the second level... (not saying you are, but it's definitely possible).
heavenlight, I'll do this dungeon tonight and post screens.
.People, please show all skill bars, yourself and heroes. Essence Snow might well be using Necrotic Traversal + Shadow Form on his bar to run the second level... (not saying you are, but it's definitely possible).
heavenlight, I'll do this dungeon tonight and post screens.
traeskapa
Just ran Bloodstone Caves for the hell of it.
It's not that good for benchmarking because almost everything is melee, or those pesky Stormcloud Incubus.
Besides that, 100b+MoP blew up the mobs, which kinda favors melee chars.
But well, yeah, it's a quick dungeon to try out builds in.
I also ran way more defense than was needed.
Only Norgu died in one Stormcloud spike, because Razah didn't put up shelter quick enough.
I removed his DP with clover, but that's the only drug I used.
The only micro was to put Strength of Honor on myself, and the occasional flagging out of poison traps.
As well as flagging them away to round up the boss mob.
13 min
It's not that good for benchmarking because almost everything is melee, or those pesky Stormcloud Incubus.
Besides that, 100b+MoP blew up the mobs, which kinda favors melee chars.
But well, yeah, it's a quick dungeon to try out builds in.
I also ran way more defense than was needed.
Only Norgu died in one Stormcloud spike, because Razah didn't put up shelter quick enough.
I removed his DP with clover, but that's the only drug I used.
The only micro was to put Strength of Honor on myself, and the occasional flagging out of poison traps.
As well as flagging them away to round up the boss mob.
13 min
hunter
Just a small note:
If you are going to blank out builds, please don't bother posting at all.
If you are going to blank out builds, please don't bother posting at all.
Essence Snow
out of curiosity...what's the point of having "benchmark builds" if your going to blank them out?
The benchmark is times, not builds.
Quote:
For the benchmarks to be reflective of how one would normally go about completing an area, tactics are prohibited. That's right, no mob skipping, no necrotic traversal, no consumables etc to reduce completion time.
I'll update my first post and post a clear rules section.
For the benchmarks to be reflective of how one would normally go about completing an area, tactics are prohibited. That's right, no mob skipping, no necrotic traversal, no consumables etc to reduce completion time.
I'll update my first post and post a clear rules section.
LexTalionis
@Essence Snow: Hrm... SF is fast indeed. How'd you get 24% DP? SF balling isn't foolproof?
(Just realised I could have shaved more time off the ToPK run if I hadn't bothered killing everything on the map at the Darknesses. Ah well. I estimate a proper run of ToPK with speed builds should take 20 minutes or so.)
P.S.: If you're worried about intermediary consumables since it's a 30+ minute run, I have intermediary screenshots after each area to show none were used whatsoever. Wasn't posting them because I don't like wasting bandwidth, but if you need, I'll upload them from work computer tomorrow.
(Just realised I could have shaved more time off the ToPK run if I hadn't bothered killing everything on the map at the Darknesses. Ah well. I estimate a proper run of ToPK with speed builds should take 20 minutes or so.)
P.S.: If you're worried about intermediary consumables since it's a 30+ minute run, I have intermediary screenshots after each area to show none were used whatsoever. Wasn't posting them because I don't like wasting bandwidth, but if you need, I'll upload them from work computer tomorrow.
heavenlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
So what is the formula like? It is hard enough to calculate your skill level relative to his.
If someone posts a 10mins run without posting skills, what does that mean? How does this help the community again? First, please reread the updated first post.
There is no objective measure to quantify skill levels, and at most, one could use its experience to give an estimate (that's why I said 'rough estimate' in my post).
As to your second question, right now, it's not about builds since it's all about finding out what the times are. So the person shows that it is possible to complete the run in 10 mins, and that's all I needed for my benchmark study.
How does this help the community? Suppose you make a build in the future and would like to test it out. The benchmarks here will provide you with a way to test how efficient your builds are. If you can beat or come close to the cutoff time for all the benchmark areas without breaking a sweat, then congrats, you have made yourself an excellent build.
Another scenario would be that you have a new and seemingly counter-intuitive build that you would like to share with the community, but you're afraid it might be shot down immediately. What could you do? You could run your build through these benchmarks areas and offer the completion time as solid proof to convince the community that your build is worth a look at.
If someone posts a 10mins run without posting skills, what does that mean? How does this help the community again? First, please reread the updated first post.
There is no objective measure to quantify skill levels, and at most, one could use its experience to give an estimate (that's why I said 'rough estimate' in my post).
As to your second question, right now, it's not about builds since it's all about finding out what the times are. So the person shows that it is possible to complete the run in 10 mins, and that's all I needed for my benchmark study.
How does this help the community? Suppose you make a build in the future and would like to test it out. The benchmarks here will provide you with a way to test how efficient your builds are. If you can beat or come close to the cutoff time for all the benchmark areas without breaking a sweat, then congrats, you have made yourself an excellent build.
Another scenario would be that you have a new and seemingly counter-intuitive build that you would like to share with the community, but you're afraid it might be shot down immediately. What could you do? You could run your build through these benchmarks areas and offer the completion time as solid proof to convince the community that your build is worth a look at.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
Another scenario would be that you have a new and seemingly counter-intuitive build that you would like to share with the community, but you're afraid it might be shot down immediately. What could you do? You could run your build through these benchmarks areas and offer the completion time as solid proof to convince the community that your build is worth a look at.
Ok, but that would be under the assumption that the person(s) providing the benchmark number is using a decent build. Otherwise the benchmarks would be too easy to beat. Why don't you standardize the build using a current pvx meta, for example, to gather your benchmarks?
Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.
Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds.
Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.
Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds.
heavenlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Ok, but that would be under the assumption that the person(s) providing the benchmark number is using a decent build. Otherwise the benchmarks would be too easy to beat. Why don't you standardize the build using a current pvx meta, for example, to gather your benchmarks?
Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.
Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds. Your points are valid but do remember that the cutoff times are there for comparison purposes. If you come close to it but can't beat it, it doesn't necessarily imply that your build is bad in terms of speed.
Everyone runs their own favorite builds, and enforcing a standard build will severely discourage participation.
Also, remember that we are now just starting with the data collecting and so some common sense has to be used to kick start the process but I don't think they are far off the mark. For instance, right now I don't think anyone will doubt the 10 mins cutoff time for Majesty's Rest given the evidence we have seen so far. But 30 mins for Vloxen is probably easy and I'm still waiting for new screenshots till I set a cutoff time.
And do realize this, once more and more people start to use this benchmark, players don't even need to refer to the benchmark times here to compare between two builds. They just need to compare their respective completion times. The enforcement of a common testing ground for builds is what matters at the end.
As for your last concern, once we are done getting the times for the 5 chosen areas, I'll update in another post about how to use the benchmarks properly. One doesn't necessarily need to run through all 5 areas, but at the very least, 2 or 3 PvE representative areas need to be done and the whole process should take under 2 hours.
Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.
Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds. Your points are valid but do remember that the cutoff times are there for comparison purposes. If you come close to it but can't beat it, it doesn't necessarily imply that your build is bad in terms of speed.
Everyone runs their own favorite builds, and enforcing a standard build will severely discourage participation.
Also, remember that we are now just starting with the data collecting and so some common sense has to be used to kick start the process but I don't think they are far off the mark. For instance, right now I don't think anyone will doubt the 10 mins cutoff time for Majesty's Rest given the evidence we have seen so far. But 30 mins for Vloxen is probably easy and I'm still waiting for new screenshots till I set a cutoff time.
And do realize this, once more and more people start to use this benchmark, players don't even need to refer to the benchmark times here to compare between two builds. They just need to compare their respective completion times. The enforcement of a common testing ground for builds is what matters at the end.
As for your last concern, once we are done getting the times for the 5 chosen areas, I'll update in another post about how to use the benchmarks properly. One doesn't necessarily need to run through all 5 areas, but at the very least, 2 or 3 PvE representative areas need to be done and the whole process should take under 2 hours.
Dzjudz
Alright here's my Vloxen fail 
. Edit: see post #71 for a better run and time.
Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (13min) (total 16)
End of level 3 (7min) (total 23)
First two levels went pretty good with 0 deaths.
Third level should have been 4 minutes (5 max) like usual, but this time somehow I just failed at Zoldark, wiping twice due to his rampant Minions.
Usually I just kill them once and then keep him from recasting them or I keep them all together by bodyblocking with minions/spirits/heroes to spike them quickly, but this time I just couldn't control them.
Ah well, 23 minutes isn't too bad either. But 20 or even faster is definitely possible.
Showed a big minimap on level 2 so you can see the path heavenlight.
P.S. I'm running lame AP-caller and not SoS or something because I want my build to be independent of my player profession. The only micro I did was cast Aggressive Refrain once at the start of each level and flag heroes (all flag only).
P.P.S. The only mobs I skipped are those you can see in the screenshots at the end of levels 1 and 2.
P.P.P.S. I think a reasonable time for Vloxen HM would be <25 minutes.
. Edit: see post #71 for a better run and time.Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (13min) (total 16)
End of level 3 (7min) (total 23)
First two levels went pretty good with 0 deaths.
Third level should have been 4 minutes (5 max) like usual, but this time somehow I just failed at Zoldark, wiping twice due to his rampant Minions.
Usually I just kill them once and then keep him from recasting them or I keep them all together by bodyblocking with minions/spirits/heroes to spike them quickly, but this time I just couldn't control them.
Ah well, 23 minutes isn't too bad either. But 20 or even faster is definitely possible.
Showed a big minimap on level 2 so you can see the path heavenlight.
P.S. I'm running lame AP-caller and not SoS or something because I want my build to be independent of my player profession. The only micro I did was cast Aggressive Refrain once at the start of each level and flag heroes (all flag only).
P.P.S. The only mobs I skipped are those you can see in the screenshots at the end of levels 1 and 2.
P.P.P.S. I think a reasonable time for Vloxen HM would be <25 minutes.
Essence Snow
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
@Essence Snow: Hrm... SF is fast indeed. How'd you get 24% DP? SF balling isn't foolproof?
. Lvl 3 of vloxen is notorious for stripping enchantments.....2 deaths and killed a foes in hm (which removes dp) The same time if not faster may be obtainable using a war w/o spell protection...actually might be better given the nicities of shatter hex now.
@heavenlight....I used to be obsessed with dungeons and therefore know most of the tricks and tibits to them...i.e.. I am not your typical player when it comes to these areas. In a lot of the dungeons a lot of the mobs can be avoided w/o sf and w/o running skills or cons. A lot of mobs can be controlled by by angle of engagement. Does this mean that I would purposely have to engage them for sake of others not knowing any better and/or run blindly into them?
Point being...not knowing the variables (builds, knowledge lvl of an area, tactics used, etc...)that go into a time of an area, will make the "benchmark time" rather meaningless. Posting as many variables that one can will only help qualify said time much better than not.
. Lvl 3 of vloxen is notorious for stripping enchantments.....2 deaths and killed a foes in hm (which removes dp) The same time if not faster may be obtainable using a war w/o spell protection...actually might be better given the nicities of shatter hex now.
@heavenlight....I used to be obsessed with dungeons and therefore know most of the tricks and tibits to them...i.e.. I am not your typical player when it comes to these areas. In a lot of the dungeons a lot of the mobs can be avoided w/o sf and w/o running skills or cons. A lot of mobs can be controlled by by angle of engagement. Does this mean that I would purposely have to engage them for sake of others not knowing any better and/or run blindly into them?
Point being...not knowing the variables (builds, knowledge lvl of an area, tactics used, etc...)that go into a time of an area, will make the "benchmark time" rather meaningless. Posting as many variables that one can will only help qualify said time much better than not.
Dzjudz
Yeah a lot of Expunge Enchantments going around on level 3
heavenlight
@heavenlight....I used to be obsessed with dungeons and therefore know most of the tricks and tibits to them...i.e.. I am not your typical player when it comes to these areas. In a lot of the dungeons a lot of the mobs can be avoided w/o sf and w/o running skills or cons. A lot of mobs can be controlled by by angle of engagement. Does this mean that I would purposely have to engage them for sake of others not knowing any better and/or run blindly into them?
Point being...not knowing the variables (builds, knowledge lvl of an area, tactics used, etc...)that go into a time of an area, will make the "benchmark time" rather meaningless. Posting as many variables that one can will only help qualify said time much better than not.
Here's how the benchmark is going to be used in the future: Once we have a set of times, if you would like to test your builds, you would take your build to these chosen areas, and run it in the same way as it's done in the benchmark, or the comparison will be moot. And keep in mind that the benchmark is ultimately about how fast a build is at killing stuff, and not completing objectives.
@Dzjudz, thanks for the time and the screenshots. Looking at your level 2 path, I realized I missed a turn and made an additional detour at the lower left corner and had an additional encounter with some dwarfs and a spider boss. 25 minutes certainly sounds reasonable to me as a cutoff time. I might lower it further if more people post times for their runs but I'll leave it at 25 minutes for now.
Essence Snow
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
Here's how the benchmark is going to be used in the future: Once we have a set of times, if you would like to test your builds, you would take your build to these chosen areas, and run it in the same way as it's done in the benchmark, or the comparison will be moot. And keep in mind that the benchmark is ultimately about how fast a build is at killing stuff, and not completing objectives.
. Ok then you need to set up a criteria for what constitutes correct paths, engaged mobs, and other factors (using traps to kill foes comes to mind) Like you noted yourself ...you didnt really know the "correct" path for lvl 2 vloxen. So inturn we come the question..."What defines the boundries of a proper run?" Just saying you cant skip a mob, doesnt really properly address the issue.
In many areas taking one path vs another will inevitably "skip" mobs. Take Rragars for example...there are many paths to take...some have more foes than others, different types of foes, and/or popups. Chosing to take one path vs the other coud be viewed as skipping the others even though the choice to do so maybe have been b/c of build setup and/or favored tactics.
Since dungeons are inheirently about completing objectives...ie..making the end chest spawn...Then they are not well suited for this. If you want to compare times concerning killing foes....then the foes need to be the same type/number/and have same location.
To do this you'd need to take into consideration all the possible variables that might affect these factors. Basically...one needs to do more leg work b4 setting something like this up.
Plutoman
Saying you must engage every mob along the route.. and setting a lot of rules for the benchmarks, seems overly complex and will discourage people.
Ideally, as I'd see it, you need to keep it rather open - if a person who knows the tricks sets a good time, that'd be in the lower end of the benchmarked times - ie, say a great Vloxen run is 18 minutes, a good one is <25, reasonable <30, after that it's sub-par. My take on it. I understand wanting a focus on builds, and not tactics, but as I see it that's the only way you'll get people interested in it - by staying flexible as to what people do.
You can always do it differently than I suggested, it's just the first idea out of my head, but it shouldn't be so strict that players follow a specific course and engage every mob in the same direction and manner and etc. It should be something a player can casually go do - "ah, hey, let's just check a time - first run got 23 minutes, not bad for the set of the builds." <-- that kinda thing. Not "Huh, to check my team build.. Okay, first engage these two patrols, oh wait, this one first, and then I go up and I take the first right, go all the way down, engaging 6 mobs along the route... Lost, crap, gotta go check the map again..." etc, I think you get the idea.
Stipulations that you don't go out of your way to run past (like with a dual fall back teams to intentionally skip mob groups even when they're aggro'd).. are fine, imo. Just stipulate that they should play as if expecting to fight, and go through the dungeon at the fastest speed the team can take them.
Ideally, as I'd see it, you need to keep it rather open - if a person who knows the tricks sets a good time, that'd be in the lower end of the benchmarked times - ie, say a great Vloxen run is 18 minutes, a good one is <25, reasonable <30, after that it's sub-par. My take on it. I understand wanting a focus on builds, and not tactics, but as I see it that's the only way you'll get people interested in it - by staying flexible as to what people do.
You can always do it differently than I suggested, it's just the first idea out of my head, but it shouldn't be so strict that players follow a specific course and engage every mob in the same direction and manner and etc. It should be something a player can casually go do - "ah, hey, let's just check a time - first run got 23 minutes, not bad for the set of the builds." <-- that kinda thing. Not "Huh, to check my team build.. Okay, first engage these two patrols, oh wait, this one first, and then I go up and I take the first right, go all the way down, engaging 6 mobs along the route... Lost, crap, gotta go check the map again..." etc, I think you get the idea.
Stipulations that you don't go out of your way to run past (like with a dual fall back teams to intentionally skip mob groups even when they're aggro'd).. are fine, imo. Just stipulate that they should play as if expecting to fight, and go through the dungeon at the fastest speed the team can take them.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavenlight
Also, remember that we are now just starting with the data collecting and so some common sense has to be used to kick start the process but I don't think they are far off the mark. For instance, right now I don't think anyone will doubt the 10 mins cutoff time for Majesty's Rest given the evidence we have seen so far. But 30 mins for Vloxen is probably easy and I'm still waiting for new screenshots till I set a cutoff time.
Anyway, I am just going to see how this goes. I think we would have the reverse problem, and the times here would be on the high side compared to the average player.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Plutoman
Saying you must engage every mob along the route.. and setting a lot of rules for the benchmarks, seems overly complex and will discourage people.
Ideally, as I'd see it, you need to keep it rather open - if a person who knows the tricks sets a good time, that'd be in the lower end of the benchmarked times - ie, say a great Vloxen run is 18 minutes, a good one is <25, reasonable <30, after that it's sub-par. My take on it. I understand wanting a focus on builds, and not tactics, but as I see it that's the only way you'll get people interested in it - by staying flexible as to what people do. I have the same concern as Essence Snow. If you don't engage every mob along the route, then this becomes even MORE of a contest on area familiarity. And people would tend to choose the areas that they are most familiar with so the timings submitted would tend to be on the high side. This means, if I am not familiar with any of these areas and with their popups, shortcuts, and so on. I may be discouraged to share because I would have to first, learn these areas well enough to get a timing that is at least average to the submitted times by people who are very familiar with them. Notice that the times seem to be pretty close which means the truly average players are not participating or most people have been submitting times for their most familiar areas only? hunter
@DzJudz: Your main has 45% Dp, all other heroes are between 20% and 35%. What happened?
And thats vloxen mind you. Its 1 reason why i think clear times do not justify that much DP on heroes and why more defensive but slower builds are generally better than glass canon builds The reason why clear times simply do not work with "glass cannon" builds is that you can get a variation in performance, sometimes wiping till 50%DP and sometimes blowing trhough the place in half the time and effort. For all i know you could have ran the place enough times till you got that "better" performance out of your build. Note its not aimed at your build specifically, but at glass cannon builds in general. If lets say someone did a 30 min clear time but heroes in the 0-10% DP department, it would be more impressive/effective compared to the former.
Dzjudz
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter
And thats vloxen mind you. Its 1 reason why i think clear times do not justify that much DP on heroes and why more defensive but slower builds are generally better than glass canon builds. |
Quote: Originally Posted by hunter
For all i know you could have ran the place enough times till you got that "better" performance out of your build.
It is true that this is a possibility. But then again, I wouldn't have posted a run with my first wipe(s). It was the only run I did of that dungeon yesterday, no repeats for better times.
Of course you can run the benchmark missions/dungeons more times to shave off a couple of minutes. But it's not a speedclear thread, the benchmark times won't be set to the fastest time someone has cleared it.
Edit:
I just did Vloxen again after this post:
Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (14min) (total 17)
End of level 3 (4min) (total 21)
Same build, same tactics, this time 0 deaths in the whole dungeon. Only difference is that this time Zoldark's Minions didn't go berserk on me. I killed them once and then stopped Zoldark from reanimating them. You can see I have Psychic Instability selected with my mouse but I didn't need it once, YMLAD and Cry of Frustration handled it. So only micro again was Aggressive Refrain at start of each level and flag heroes with all flag.
Of course you can run the benchmark missions/dungeons more times to shave off a couple of minutes. But it's not a speedclear thread, the benchmark times won't be set to the fastest time someone has cleared it.
Edit:
I just did Vloxen again after this post:
Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (14min) (total 17)
End of level 3 (4min) (total 21)
Same build, same tactics, this time 0 deaths in the whole dungeon. Only difference is that this time Zoldark's Minions didn't go berserk on me. I killed them once and then stopped Zoldark from reanimating them. You can see I have Psychic Instability selected with my mouse but I didn't need it once, YMLAD and Cry of Frustration handled it. So only micro again was Aggressive Refrain at start of each level and flag heroes with all flag.
heavenlight
@ Essence Snow & Plutoman, ultimately it's about the big picture of what this benchmark but I don't think you guys see it.
So I'll ask a question, and the answer itself is the answer to many of your questions, and if you get it, good, if not, I don't see how I can ever communicate my big picture view.
"Do you know why the early economists (including many who went on to win Nobel prizes) model humans as homo economicus?"
I would also like to point out that participation is entirely voluntary.
p/s: I'll be away in the next few days due to rl commitments and I may or may not have time to check gwguru, but I hope to see a few more submissions.
So I'll ask a question, and the answer itself is the answer to many of your questions, and if you get it, good, if not, I don't see how I can ever communicate my big picture view.
"Do you know why the early economists (including many who went on to win Nobel prizes) model humans as homo economicus?"
I would also like to point out that participation is entirely voluntary.
p/s: I'll be away in the next few days due to rl commitments and I may or may not have time to check gwguru, but I hope to see a few more submissions.
Essence Snow
So I'll ask a question, and the answer itself is the answer to many of your questions, and if you get it, good, if not, I don't see how I can ever communicate my big picture view.
"Do you know why the early economists (including many who went on to win Nobel prizes) model humans as homo economicus?"
I would also like to point out that participation is entirely voluntary.
p/s: I'll be away in the next few days due to rl commitments and I may or may not have time to check gwguru, but I hope to see a few more submissions.
In any experiment (pretty sure this qualifies as such) the control...also known here as "benchmark" needs to have standards.
Quote:
Can I still ask what builds you were running? A party wipe in a dungeon should only tack on a couple of extra minutes (although Vloxen can be annoying in that enemies usually have a Jagged MM that raises 10 minions from your party's corpses), and an extra spawn in Tombs shouldn't overwhelm you (although an accidental wipe there will of course send you back to the outpost). Sure, area familiarity has bearing on the times, nobody said they didn't. Remember, it's not a speed clear thread.|
Scientific control needs not be experimental, and experimentation can sometimes be impossible (as in astronomy). The important thing is to try and control variables and attributes in the data so that the conclusions drawn are valid. Controls are used because it can be difficult to avoid confounding variables.
I am not debating this out of self-interest. I am however debating this b/c if ppl take this as valid when all signs point that its not...then they are the ones that are subject to ill conclusions. I am merely suggesting that for this whole dealio to hold water there needs to be some validity. Otherwise it's basically an empty bucket. Plutoman
I see all the points, I just also see a limited community size, and well, people can be lazy. <_< I'm not gonna tell you to do everything I say, I'm just offering suggestions based on the impressions I get.
As I see it, flexibility is important for participation - one or two runs doesn't necessarily tell you what a fast time is when there's so much variance in player skills and team builds. And strict rules will tend to discourage people.
Haggis of Doom
Benchmarking with this big a human input factor is meaningless. I understand your frustration at the current state of things where everything is so qualitative and subjective, but your solution isn't one that can work. A build is only as good as it is played, therefore the best build for you is the one you use the best.
Thus, the best "generic-everyone-can-run" build evaluation method is peer trial. We already have that on PvX. On Guru, we can share ideas, point out flaws, give suggestions, but that's about it. If an unconventional build shows up, then the poster is expected to show some results. It's fine this way, imo. LexTalionis Thus, the best "generic-everyone-can-run" build evaluation method is peer trial. We already have that on PvX. On Guru, we can share ideas, point out flaws, give suggestions, but that's about it. If an unconventional build shows up, then the poster is expected to show some results. It's fine this way, imo. In my personal experience, PvX isn't so much peer trial as pre-emptive deprecation. At least on Guru, as one of the mods said, you're somewhat expected to explain why you think a build sucks if you say so. This is completely anecdotal, but my experience with Guru has taught me to value the community here (which actually gives occasional constructive criticism) much more than PvX's contrary policies, exclusivist cliques and status quo. Sorry, opinionated rant. Take none of what I just said seriously.
Dzjudz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Forgot about a popup spawn in Tombs. This is such a pain to re-learn areas that I have done years ago. Majesty's Rest has so many undead that it is obvious a roj smite build would have an advantage. If I am not using one, why bother? Since I hate all of these areas, I am not going to participate. Don't even try to convince me that area familiarity has no bearing on the times. |
I think post #7 explains it best:
Quote: Originally Posted by heavenlight
My motivation to start the thread is
1) I'm sick and tired of hearing people say "When I run my build z, everything just explodes and I faceroll through pve contents" without solid numbers backing up their claim. Just think about how much more credible EFGJack's claim about his build will be if he provides run times for the zones he tested his build at.
2) At the same time, I'm sure many forum lurkers are curious how their hero builds compare to other players.
To the posts above, that's why I mentioned I don't agree with equating fast with good since there are other criteria like reliability. But fast is definitely one criteria to judge the worthiness of a build.
So I repeat here: My sole point here is to provide a point of comparison for judging how fast a build is and I do not care about other factors that are hard to measure.
The suggestion of having a few areas is so that it is representative of PvE content. At the same time, tactics/luck should be eliminated/reduced to be as objective as possible.
The point of having speedclears to each specific area is so that we can judge how much extra time is needed for the build. The extra time needed should provide enough info for the players to weigh the risk/reward factor of running the build.
To be clear, let me illustrate with an example. Suppose the 5 chosen areas are Shards of Orr, Hell's Precipice (bonus required), Morostav Trail, Majesty Rest, and Vloxen's Excavations and the fastest running times are 40 minutes, 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 10 minutes, 25 minutes.
Now anyone who has a build to test, be it EFGJack advanced warrior build or Lex's Dwaynaway, could take their builds to these areas and run them to get the times. Suppose I take my overly-defensive build into these areas and get a time 1 hr 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 35 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes. These numbers will tell me how much time is lost by being overly-defensive. If I think the extra reliability provided is far outweighted by the time loss, then I can tweak my build to have more offensive power. Let's say you get a 30 minute time in Vloxen because you weren't familiar with routes and tactics. You can factor in these circumstances yourself when comparing your time to the benchmark time.
1) I'm sick and tired of hearing people say "When I run my build z, everything just explodes and I faceroll through pve contents" without solid numbers backing up their claim. Just think about how much more credible EFGJack's claim about his build will be if he provides run times for the zones he tested his build at.
2) At the same time, I'm sure many forum lurkers are curious how their hero builds compare to other players.
To the posts above, that's why I mentioned I don't agree with equating fast with good since there are other criteria like reliability. But fast is definitely one criteria to judge the worthiness of a build.
So I repeat here: My sole point here is to provide a point of comparison for judging how fast a build is and I do not care about other factors that are hard to measure.
The suggestion of having a few areas is so that it is representative of PvE content. At the same time, tactics/luck should be eliminated/reduced to be as objective as possible.
The point of having speedclears to each specific area is so that we can judge how much extra time is needed for the build. The extra time needed should provide enough info for the players to weigh the risk/reward factor of running the build.
To be clear, let me illustrate with an example. Suppose the 5 chosen areas are Shards of Orr, Hell's Precipice (bonus required), Morostav Trail, Majesty Rest, and Vloxen's Excavations and the fastest running times are 40 minutes, 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 10 minutes, 25 minutes.
Now anyone who has a build to test, be it EFGJack advanced warrior build or Lex's Dwaynaway, could take their builds to these areas and run them to get the times. Suppose I take my overly-defensive build into these areas and get a time 1 hr 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 35 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes. These numbers will tell me how much time is lost by being overly-defensive. If I think the extra reliability provided is far outweighted by the time loss, then I can tweak my build to have more offensive power. Let's say you get a 30 minute time in Vloxen because you weren't familiar with routes and tactics. You can factor in these circumstances yourself when comparing your time to the benchmark time.
Daesu
I have cleared this before more than a year ago and I forgot about the rolling stone. Sure, I could have prepared myself better before going (e.g. reading the wiki), but I shouldn't need to do all that just to test a build.
Quote:
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Tombs shouldn't overwhelm you (although an accidental wipe there will of course send you back to the outpost).
I think it was in level 2 near the wurms where a big group of grasps popped up right in the middle of my casters. I could have tread more carefully knowing there are popups but I was impatient and forgot about them. Even though I didn't wipe, the DP acquired by my casters then, would be enough to slow me down significantly. Quote:
Ah, I couldn't figure out what sort of rock you were talking about, but a boulder explains it. You shouldn't encounter any rolling stones though if you start from Vlox's Falls (which is a better place to start anyway). But yeah, it's prudent to look at wiki before attempting something for which you know the time is going to be a factor, be it a mission to see what the bonus is and which path to take, a vanquish to see how many enemies there are, etc. Quote:
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