Nerf Assassins promise, buff Glyph of Renewal
Winterclaw
Seeing that AP is popular with Els for recharging skills, why not nerf it so it only recharges Assassin skills and then buff glyph of renewal for els? Make it one energy cost, 3/4th cast time, no recharge and have it half the recharge of your next spell. Or tie it to energy storage and have it last for 1...3 spells.
AlsPals
Im all for a buff of renewal, even something like 1/2 cast time and next 3 spells recharge in 3/4 the time. I disagree with The promise nerf, though, as it is totally fine as is, and the "Interact with x class skills only" clause set a bad precedent.
Calista Blackblood
AP is also popular with Mesmer's and Necro's,and there's really no reason either why most other professions can't use it. Are you going to suggest buffs or new skills to allow all classes the same functionality of an elite?
This change(regarding AP) is totally unnecessary and would literally ruin PvE for more people that it would benefit.
This change(regarding AP) is totally unnecessary and would literally ruin PvE for more people that it would benefit.
IronSheik
I can accomplish your elite skill change with my ebon ward of wisdom.
Calista Blackblood
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Originally Posted by IronSheik
I can accomplish your elite skill change with my ebon ward of wisdom.
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NerfHerder
AP Nerf /notsigned
While it is a powerful skill, I can think of plenty of other stuff that needs nerfing first.
Glyph of Renewal Buff /signed
I would go even further and have glyph return some energy as well.
Something like, move to energy storage, Glyph of Renewal- 5e 1sec 20rc- Your next 0..2..3 spells recharge instantly and for every 2 points invested in energy storage you gain 1 energy.
might be a little OP but you get the idea.
While it is a powerful skill, I can think of plenty of other stuff that needs nerfing first.
Glyph of Renewal Buff /signed
I would go even further and have glyph return some energy as well.
Something like, move to energy storage, Glyph of Renewal- 5e 1sec 20rc- Your next 0..2..3 spells recharge instantly and for every 2 points invested in energy storage you gain 1 energy.
might be a little OP but you get the idea.
AndrewSX
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Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood
AP is also popular with Mesmer's and Necro's,and there's really no reason either why most other professions can't use it. Are you going to suggest buffs or new skills to allow all classes the same functionality of an elite?
This change(regarding AP) is totally unnecessary and would literally ruin PvE for more people that it would benefit. |
Ask Jeydra for example, who is the only person i've ever heard completed Doa HM using a ele atm.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=454
If Ap would get stomped to oblivion Mes or Nec wouldn't be affected so much... Mes have tons of awesome stuff, Necs use it only when nuking in sc's, where Air of Superiority could fill the insta-recharge role.
Eles would see disappear one of the 2 really worthy elites they have (the other is ER). Nothing against Invoke/Bsurge/Unsteady and such, but those pales against what AP allow to do(Human eles using it for Pve skills abuse mostly).
I'll be favorable to a AP nerf only when Eles will be reworked as they deserve.
P.S:if you're looking for a unused elite to fill the insta-recharge for eles only, i'd propose Second Wind instead on Glyph of Renewal btw.
And glyphs could see some love anyway.
Soulfire Ninja
Nerf Assassin's Promise? What did the elite skill ever do to you?
/UNSIGNED!
/UNSIGNED!
Lanier
/signed for the AP nerf
I find it silly that anyone would say that nerfing an OP skill would "ruin" PvE for people...
AP in itself isn't necessarily overpowered... its the combination of AP + Eotn PvE skills that is overpowered. While I am all for nerfing the eotn PvE skills, this isn't going to happen. As such, unless all of the offensive eotn PvE skills are nerfed, I support nerfing AP FOR ASSASSING SECONDARIES.
By this, i mean change it so that AP only affects assassin skills. Currently, the only viable alternative to JS>FF>DB spam for assassins is using AP with various, synergizing attack skills (ex: black mantis thrust>jungle strike>trampling ox>falling lotus strike>blades of steel). With the low recharge of the JS>FF>DB chain, there is simply no way another build can compete with it unless AP is used to negate the recharge. Therefore, in my opinion, nerf AP for secondary classes to prevent the abuse of eotn PvE skills but keep it the same for assassins to prevent the class from falling further into an only-one-build-is-viable profession.
EDIT: and combine the AP nerf with a change to elemental lord or intensity that grants armor penetration (scaling) to elementalist skills.
I find it silly that anyone would say that nerfing an OP skill would "ruin" PvE for people...
AP in itself isn't necessarily overpowered... its the combination of AP + Eotn PvE skills that is overpowered. While I am all for nerfing the eotn PvE skills, this isn't going to happen. As such, unless all of the offensive eotn PvE skills are nerfed, I support nerfing AP FOR ASSASSING SECONDARIES.
By this, i mean change it so that AP only affects assassin skills. Currently, the only viable alternative to JS>FF>DB spam for assassins is using AP with various, synergizing attack skills (ex: black mantis thrust>jungle strike>trampling ox>falling lotus strike>blades of steel). With the low recharge of the JS>FF>DB chain, there is simply no way another build can compete with it unless AP is used to negate the recharge. Therefore, in my opinion, nerf AP for secondary classes to prevent the abuse of eotn PvE skills but keep it the same for assassins to prevent the class from falling further into an only-one-build-is-viable profession.
EDIT: and combine the AP nerf with a change to elemental lord or intensity that grants armor penetration (scaling) to elementalist skills.
Swingline
AP is like a band aid for eles so chances are it might actually see a nerf. Before ripping off the band aid, I wish they would fix eles in HM, and smite monks, before they swing the nerf bat at AP.
/signed after they fix certain classes.
/signed after they fix certain classes.
LifeInfusion
AP is used better on mesmers and necros anyway. The reason AP is good for eles is it is energy management as well and it recharges glyph of lesser energy for even more energy management.
Glyph of Renewal is a gimmick unless it's tied to energy storage: see Mo/E seed of life with glyph of renewal.
It doesn't fix anything if you buff glyph of renewal because the ele damage is not that great to begin with.
Glyph of Renewal is a gimmick unless it's tied to energy storage: see Mo/E seed of life with glyph of renewal.
It doesn't fix anything if you buff glyph of renewal because the ele damage is not that great to begin with.
Lord Dagon
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Originally Posted by Swingline
AP is like a band aid for eles so chances are it might actually see a nerf. Before ripping off the band aid, I wish they would fix eles in HM, and smite monks, before they swing the nerf bat at AP.
/signed after they fix certain classes. |
So yes im all for nerfing AP as long as they fixes ele's BEFOREHAND. Not after
Mashiyu
they could just buff elementalists until AP/PvE spam looks unattractive compared to real elementalist spells
/notsigned
/notsigned
Jeydra
AP is overpowered, but without a comparable buff to Elementalist skills (and possibly Nec / Mes / Monk offense) then a nerf to AP will have serious, serious consequences in PvE. It wouldn't be "I need to use new builds now", but more of "I can't do ___ anymore".
Those changes you wrote to Glyph of Renewal will not make it much more powerful. For heroes, maybe; for players, no way.
Those changes you wrote to Glyph of Renewal will not make it much more powerful. For heroes, maybe; for players, no way.
Xenomortis
Why cripple Eles and annoy everyone else?
I understand the desire to weaken the OP crap being thrown around, but this is not a good way to do it.
I understand the desire to weaken the OP crap being thrown around, but this is not a good way to do it.
MithranArkanere
The key word in Assassin's Promise is 'Assassin'.
It's an elite, and the primary uses it waaay less than caster professions.
It shouldn't be like that. An elite skill should ALWAYS be either as useful or more useful to primaries than to secondaries, never less useful.
I would just link the energy gain to critical strikes, and maybe also recharge only assassin skills.
It's an elite, and the primary uses it waaay less than caster professions.
It shouldn't be like that. An elite skill should ALWAYS be either as useful or more useful to primaries than to secondaries, never less useful.
I would just link the energy gain to critical strikes, and maybe also recharge only assassin skills.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Why cripple Eles and annoy everyone else?
I understand the desire to weaken the OP crap being thrown around, but this is not a good way to do it. |
Think about paragons. Imbagons are overpowered, but paragons dont have much else going for them. Thus, imbagons should be nerfed at the same time other options are buffed. Its the same concept, except much easier for elementalists because they only need one skill change to make a whole bunch of elemental damage builds viable.
Cuilan
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
An elite skill should ALWAYS be either as useful or more useful to primaries than to secondaries, never less useful.
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Many players see it as a skill that gives a hero team enough damage, so it makes up for a lack of players.
Making it assassin only would be a kill, since the assassin meta is too spammy (WotA, Death Blossem, non-sin weapons, etc.) to need it.
Elnino
/signed for AP nerf.
/not signed for Glyph of Renewal buff. It will just open up rampant abuse by other professions (mesmers come to mind here). If it was tied to energy storage . . . maybe.
/not signed for Glyph of Renewal buff. It will just open up rampant abuse by other professions (mesmers come to mind here). If it was tied to energy storage . . . maybe.
Kunder
Out of all the OP skills in the game, you want to go after the one elite that takes some small shred of player skill to use effectively and which is the key skill in at least half if not more of all effective caster builds (not just ele)? Why?
This is a point, though assassin casters are just as amazing with AP, you simply don't see it because assassins have enough other imba builds to run. At most, to prevent ruining the majority of all HM-worthy caster builds that require an IQ over room temperature to play, I would recharge everything but link energy to the # of assassin skills recharged. 1...4...6 energy each.
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The key word in Assassin's Promise is 'Assassin'. It's an elite, and the primary uses it waaay less than caster professions. It shouldn't be like that. An elite skill should ALWAYS be either as useful or more useful to primaries than to secondaries, never less useful. I would just link the energy gain to critical strikes, and maybe also recharge only assassin skills. |
Elnino
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Out of all the OP skills in the game, you want to go after the one elite that takes some small shred of player skill to use effectively and which is the key skill in at least half if not more of all effective caster builds (not just ele)? Why?
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Terrible Surgeon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lanier
/signed for the AP nerf
I find it silly that anyone would say that nerfing an OP skill would "ruin" PvE for people... AP in itself isn't necessarily overpowered... its the combination of AP + Eotn PvE skills that is overpowered. While I am all for nerfing the eotn PvE skills, this isn't going to happen. As such, unless all of the offensive eotn PvE skills are nerfed, I support nerfing AP FOR ASSASSING SECONDARIES. By this, i mean change it so that AP only affects assassin skills. Currently, the only viable alternative to JS>FF>DB spam for assassins is using AP with various, synergizing attack skills (ex: black mantis thrust>jungle strike>trampling ox>falling lotus strike>blades of steel). With the low recharge of the JS>FF>DB chain, there is simply no way another build can compete with it unless AP is used to negate the recharge. Therefore, in my opinion, nerf AP for secondary classes to prevent the abuse of eotn PvE skills but keep it the same for assassins to prevent the class from falling further into an only-one-build-is-viable profession. EDIT: and combine the AP nerf with a change to elemental lord or intensity that grants armor penetration (scaling) to elementalist skills. |
Its PvE and its for fun. AP can fail and sometimes does. Its a useless skill outside of doing things like solo VQ. I think that should sum it up.
/not signed
Glyph of renewal needs a change, but a lot of useless elite skills need changed. I like the ideas people have in the thread but i think its just another AP specified for ele use only. That seems a little unfair taking AP away from everyone else as suggested while giving the ele a skill similar if not better than AP..
/unsigned
SheilaWhiteclaw
/SIGNED for nerf
/SIGNED for GoR buff.
My opinion,not only glyph should be buffed, but also, elemental attributes. Water and Earth magic are super underrated, Air is used but not as much, leaving Fire magic being over used... shame.
/SIGNED for GoR buff.
My opinion,not only glyph should be buffed, but also, elemental attributes. Water and Earth magic are super underrated, Air is used but not as much, leaving Fire magic being over used... shame.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Lanier
The good way to do it is to weaken the OP crap while giving them more viable build options, hence why AP should be nerfed at the same time intensity or elemental lord is changed to give armor penetration to elemental spells.
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Whilst Assassin's Promise is arguably an OP skill, it's not the core of the problem. Destroying it would be detrimental at this point.
vitorvdp_68
Basically, you want to buff glyph so that Eles can take a different secondary, and nerf AP so that all the other classes that usually use it get screwed over?
No thanks.
If you want to make Eles more powerful, I don't think Glyph is what you should be looking at.
/notsigned
Edit: when you suggest an idea, you have to mention what positive impact it could have on players. Which you haven't...
No thanks.
If you want to make Eles more powerful, I don't think Glyph is what you should be looking at.
/notsigned
Edit: when you suggest an idea, you have to mention what positive impact it could have on players. Which you haven't...
Calista Blackblood
Winterclaw cleverly forgot to add that he wants AP nerfed to sins only to force an update to ele damage output and lol water nukes.
Neither the problem nor the solution lie with AP or GoR in this case.
Neither the problem nor the solution lie with AP or GoR in this case.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon
IDC what you find funny and i doubt anyone else really does either. Point being, many players enjoy running around PvE using one build, IE. Shadowform sins, AP ele, AoTL necros and etc...when you have played the game for 6 years and you know what you like (ap ele build) it is likely that if something you like (ap ele build) disappears so will you. Being that you quit.
Its PvE and its for fun. AP can fail and sometimes does. Its a useless skill outside of doing things like solo VQ. I think that should sum it up. /not signed |
I'll go back to my analogy with paragons. The imbagon build is simply far more effective than any of the other builds available to paragons. It is OP, and as such, has ruined the fun of the class because it has restricted the build diversity and forced you to run a single build if you want to run the optimal build.
In other words, having one build that clearly outshines all of the other builds for that intended use (and by a large margin too) is not "fun" at all.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
The point is that this change won't do that.
Whilst Assassin's Promise is arguably an OP skill, it's not the core of the problem. Destroying it would be detrimental at this point. |
_Deals_
/not signed,
if you're talking about nerfing AP why not nerf SoS, since even like AP, SoS is used by other caster classes besides ritualist, what about putting AP under Critical Strikes so no one besides assassins can get it above 4(with the help of lots of p-cons)..but of course rework the skill and give it some XX% damage along with the energy gain when foe dies. It's 5 years into factions, i don't think it's really going to matter now..and i don't really see anyone using it anymore anyways since everyone and there mother uses SoS because of Spirit Walls, AP is a good spike if you use, spirit-way bars on heros and you don't need to run SoS yourself.
if you're talking about nerfing AP why not nerf SoS, since even like AP, SoS is used by other caster classes besides ritualist, what about putting AP under Critical Strikes so no one besides assassins can get it above 4(with the help of lots of p-cons)..but of course rework the skill and give it some XX% damage along with the energy gain when foe dies. It's 5 years into factions, i don't think it's really going to matter now..and i don't really see anyone using it anymore anyways since everyone and there mother uses SoS because of Spirit Walls, AP is a good spike if you use, spirit-way bars on heros and you don't need to run SoS yourself.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Elnino
You just answered your own question. When something becomes so important that it becomes a staple in almost every build, it needs a nerf.
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Furthermore, if you are intent on nerfing a skill simply because it is used a lot, go into a zaishen quest and check the groups forming. I daresay you will be lucky if AP users make up 5% of the players. Several other elites are used at least 5x if not 10x more often than AP.
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Originally Posted by Elnino
Also, it doesn't take any skill to use it effectively.
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vitorvdp_68
Plus, AP is a hex, and so can be removed (and it does happen).
Winterclaw
As mentioned, part of the reason for the suggestion was that if you get rid of els exploiting AP (for both recharge and energy), they would probably deserve a much needed fix. The first part of that fix could potentially be a buff to GoR, which is why I suggested that.
My opinion on water magic is a different matter.
My opinion on water magic is a different matter.
Essence Snow
Six pages of AP debate which ppl were not to happy bout
tiny_the_tokin_bear
/signed ele buff of some kind
/notsigned AP nerf
Yes eles are terribad, nerfing AP is not the way to remedy this. Perhaps changing Energy Storage over to "Elemental Mastery" where your elemental damage and/or penetration is increased and your energy cost for elemental spells is also decreased so as to allow similar energy management to the present energy storage primary would be a worth while change.
/notsigned AP nerf
Yes eles are terribad, nerfing AP is not the way to remedy this. Perhaps changing Energy Storage over to "Elemental Mastery" where your elemental damage and/or penetration is increased and your energy cost for elemental spells is also decreased so as to allow similar energy management to the present energy storage primary would be a worth while change.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Six pages of AP debate which ppl were not to happy bout
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When another professions elite becomes the best elite for another profession to use then you have a big problem with balance. Another elite like AP is SoS. SoS does more damage at 12 channeling magic than most skills of other professions at 16, not to mention its utility for taking heat off you and other party members.
Tormiasz
My suggestion to change the skills descriptions:
AP: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 3/4s, Recharge Time: 20s
Elite Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 0...1...2 Energy for every rank in Critical Strikes and all your skills excluding Assassin's Promise are recharged.
Glyph of Renewal: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 1, Recharge Time: 15s
Elite Glyph. For 15 seconds, for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage 1 of your spells instantly recharges. Spells with recharge time less than 5 seconds do not consume uses of this skill. Each spell can be recharged one time.
AP: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 3/4s, Recharge Time: 20s
Elite Hex Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 0...1...2 Energy for every rank in Critical Strikes and all your skills excluding Assassin's Promise are recharged.
Glyph of Renewal: E Cost: 5, Cast Time: 1, Recharge Time: 15s
Elite Glyph. For 15 seconds, for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage 1 of your spells instantly recharges. Spells with recharge time less than 5 seconds do not consume uses of this skill. Each spell can be recharged one time.
vitorvdp_68
I'm going to lay this out nice and easy for anyone that is too selfish to acknowledge it.
Let's say that with a certain class (or team), you have 5 types of builds to run, INCLUDING AP.
You can run any of them, it's your choice. Nothing is stopping you from using the other 4 builds that aren't AP. If you think AP is more fun, good for you, you use it. If you think AP is not fun, you can run any of the other 4 classes. And here is the catch.
If you nerf AP, it does NOT make ANY of the other builds stronger.
All it means is that as a player, you have one less choice of build to run.
So you ask yourself. Is it going to make the game more fun for YOU if a build that you don't even use gets nerfed? I don't see how.
If you use the build but still think it's OP / unfair, take the initiative to try out different stuff yourself. It is very fun to come up with different builds for mission/vanquishes, as I have done so quite a few times, especially with the ability to use 7 (SEVEN!) customizable heroes in your party.
If you nerf it, it only affects the people that want to use it, negatively.
Let's say that with a certain class (or team), you have 5 types of builds to run, INCLUDING AP.
You can run any of them, it's your choice. Nothing is stopping you from using the other 4 builds that aren't AP. If you think AP is more fun, good for you, you use it. If you think AP is not fun, you can run any of the other 4 classes. And here is the catch.
If you nerf AP, it does NOT make ANY of the other builds stronger.
All it means is that as a player, you have one less choice of build to run.
So you ask yourself. Is it going to make the game more fun for YOU if a build that you don't even use gets nerfed? I don't see how.
If you use the build but still think it's OP / unfair, take the initiative to try out different stuff yourself. It is very fun to come up with different builds for mission/vanquishes, as I have done so quite a few times, especially with the ability to use 7 (SEVEN!) customizable heroes in your party.
If you nerf it, it only affects the people that want to use it, negatively.
cthulhu reborn
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Originally Posted by _Deals_
/not signed,
if you're talking about nerfing AP why not nerf SoS, since even like AP, SoS is used by other caster classes besides ritualist, what about putting AP under Critical Strikes so no one besides assassins can get it above 4(with the help of lots of p-cons)..but of course rework the skill and give it some XX% damage along with the energy gain when foe dies. It's 5 years into factions, i don't think it's really going to matter now..and i don't really see anyone using it anymore anyways since everyone and there mother uses SoS because of Spirit Walls, AP is a good spike if you use, spirit-way bars on heros and you don't need to run SoS yourself. |
As soon as a skill becomes commonplace amongst other places, you've got to wonder about that. I understand it for ress skills or speed boosts but beyond that dual classing has created a lot of monsters.
vitorvdp_68
I guess that's the point of being able to carry a secondary class...
Miteshu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lanier
You want to talk about having fun? Having one build that dominates all others for a given profession is not fun - it kills build diversity for that profession. A large part of this game is the fact that their are countless skills and countless skill combinations, and being limited by the fact that one combination of skills (most of which arn't even elementalist) completely dominate all other builds is counter to having a variety of equally viable builds. What I am trying to say is that the fact that one build dominates all other builds for a single profession (note that i am talking about offensive builds here, obviously eles can also ER), is not fun at all.
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I rather not have my VQ drag way too long. It is boring, we meet the same enemies. Then kill the same group again.
Then if we nerf all damaging skills, how do we kill monk bosses? They heal way too fast and too much. Some of their heals have a short recharge/cast time to make interrupts worthless.
vitorvdp_68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miteshu
Nah, how about buff other skills instead?
I rather not have my VQ drag way too long. It is boring, we meet the same enemies. Then kill the same group again. Then if we nerf all damaging skills, how do we kill monk bosses? They heal way too fast and too much. Some of their heals have a short recharge/cast time to make interrupts worthless. |