Vladway 2

Vladimir94

Vladimir94

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

dont worry about it

the fallen solace knights[fsk]

N/



Questions I have about the build:

1. What do I with my build? I am a necro primary but im not really sure what I should run.

2. Considering this is meant for hard mode, am I really better off with the ST rit, or should I use an E/Mo ER protter?

3. Is the Rt/N minion bomber a good idea? the synergy seems good to me, but I never see it used in peoples builds.

4. What do I do with the mesmer elites? Is shared burden + energy surge good, or am I better off with panic + ineptitude?

5. What do I do with the last character? I set it as an invoke lightning air ele, but im open to suggestions for anything better.

Thanks in advance for all the help!

farmerfez

farmerfez

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

You should know

W/

If I were you i'd drop the last ele hero and throw a healer of some sort in.


and wheres panic?? 0o

jensyea

jensyea

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Underworld

Mo/

Use the Rt/N explosive bomber with aotl, look it up on gwpvx.
Also, your ST won't be using armor of the unfeeling well, swap it for something else. A N/Rt will lol @ your healing burst monk in terms of amount healed/minute because your monk will run out of energy midway of a fight and the N/Rt won't.
Yes, Panic and Inept are a better combo then what you currently have.
The invoke ele; I didn't know what to do with my last hero when I finished my 7hero build either, I chose for an earth ele for the wards and played around with KD's combined with earthbind on another hero because besides mobs going !! all the time, its fun to watch them fall on their butt too.
The pain of disenchantment hero is a real sad story, please delete that bar if you saved it.
As for yourself, just take ebon vanguard standard of wisdom, and don't take SS.

Good luck, vlad

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

1: the player should bring damage. Because of PvE skills and intelligence, players are most suited to bring big damage.

2: you can try out the ST first. Neither build will do any damage, so the question is only which prots better. For full prot I like E/Mo. However, you should be able to take a couple of prot skills as a secondary (on a necro for example) and be done with it instead of taking a full prot hero.

3: a few reasons why Explosive Growth MM isn't ideal: non-armor ignoring damage from explosive growth; no death magic runes (stuck at 12 death magic); no soul reaping; no open secondary profession for support. You'd be better off with a necro primary MM with 2-3 open slots for secondary profession skills (monk, para, rit, etc).

4: depends on the area. All 4 skills are good. In my experience heroes are reluctant with casting Shared Burden on their own. I like Ineptitude + Esurge/Panic, but I only take Panic if it's needed (e.g. very big and/or dangerous groups that need the uber shutdown Panic provides).

5: personally I'd go for another mesmer instead. I don't like the limited damage/support from invoke and the reliance on enchantments. But some (Jeydra) like them.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Shock Arrow and Lightning Orb would be better than Arc Lightning (you don't have water hexes) and Lightning Bolt. Glyph of Lesser Energy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerfez View Post
and wheres panic?? 0o He doesn't need it in some areas of the game? Shared Burden is fine.

Vladimir94

Vladimir94

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

dont worry about it

the fallen solace knights[fsk]

N/

updated:



I honestly think that the rt/n minion bomber can be very effect. While its true that keeping it rit primary does make the minions weaker, they are simply there to explode and provide a distraction. The lower attribute points do not make them so weak that they are useless, because the ST rit is helping to keep them alive. That being said the 60 lightning damage is nice, especially because my other necro is bringing weaken armor.

Im still not sure what to do about the ele. Some more damage is nice, and he benefits from weaken armor.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

P/

The air elementalist just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the team. It's a spike build and no one else on the team spikes damage.
I find a SoS rit or a RoJ hybrid nuker do well in that slot, though not against fire resistant foes of course.
You could also run a para (perhaps zeal chants and shouts, with TPIY as elite?) for support.

itiscurtains

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2010

The thing is, the extra 30 points of armor-ignoring damage you'll get from running Death Nova at 18 Death Magic (assuming Masochism) on a Necro primary will largely offset the lightning damage from Explosive Growth, which gets reduced in HM. You'll also get more minions and more utility.
However, I agree that explosions are fun, so I get it.
If you're going to use the Rt/N, there's no real reason to bring the Blood spells. Dark Bond is generally unnecessary, and the effects of Blood Bond can be somewhat replicated by adding Spirit's Gift to the bar. Spec 12 points into Death and 12+1+3 into Spawning, and definitely move Death Nova off the Curses Necro and onto the Rit.

IronSheik

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

Drop FoC, use a regular restore weapon

Drop weapon spells, fit 1-2 splinter weapons at 10+ spec for minions.

Drop ele for anything (Another MM, Healer, Aegis would be nice)

You aren't a physical primary, so I wouldn't run a fully dedicated curses/weaken armor.

Rt/N bar is way too specced, run a N/Mo Prot/Bomber

Burden is fine, but shadow of fear overlaps it.

Run /Me for energy on the monk

Dulled weapon is moot, I would go /P and bring stand your ground+never surrender.

Plutoman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2010

E/

Seriously, for all the people who say drop the ele bar, ignore them. The damage from the invoke ele will surpass a mesmer damage without weaken armor, unless you can regularly hit more than 3 foes with every skill. With weaken armor, it's definitely more spike damage. That said, another mesmer is always good there because of the extra utility. But the invoke's definitely powerful, and ele damage is not '2006'. If anyone wants proof, feel free to PM me. I've got a full mathematical chart calculating damages.

However - the only skills you really need/want are Invoke, Chain, and L-Orb, along with the attunement. You can fit in one more, but it's not necessarily needed. AoR is a good cover, and extra self-healing, and the rest should just go into whatever secondary is needed (prots, shouts, etc). Feel free to run 8 ES and 10 of a secondary.

The Rt/N is so-so. They're not as good as they used to be, and they're definitely better in NM.

On the ST rit, drop Union. Displacement, maybe, depends on the area. Heroes don't use union well, and it's a waste of the ST charge (you only get 3 casts per 15 secs). Displacement can be useful, but it's frequently better to have 3 shelter's than 1 displacement and 2 shelters, because it's easy to fit in additional sources of block (ie, Aegis).

I think the elites were swapped on the mesmers, but you'll want to watch the Ineptitude. They burn through energy rather quickly, and Arcane Conundrum's energy gain isn't that effective (the utility is great - just not the e-management).

The extra skills on the ST rit also aren't that effective - they're decent, but not great. My recommendation is to use either more prots (aegis, shield of absorption, etc), depending on how you've fit them in elsewhere (or if you use displacement), or more red-bar with PwK for party, and spirit light/soothing memories/MBaS for a powerful red-bar/support heal.

Shared Burden is amazing, but you might have to tell heroes to use it. They don't prioritize it much, preferring to use other skills. As a note with that, it's fine with Ineptitude generally. Panic isn't that vital to have, either. Just because it's meta doesn't mean it's god. Energy Surge is pretty effective spike damage, and it fits in well with the Invoke's spikes, without the conflicts multiple e-surges have.

There's a lot of options for you - what you have is decent, there's a few things that can be swapped around, added in, but it's not bad.

Sir Cusfreak

Sir Cusfreak

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

In your backline

No Tags [NONE]

I'm pretty surprised at seeing people suggest the MM and ST combo - especially when "heroes dont use Armor of Unfeeling well - change it for something else"
SO - we're dropping the ST's AoU and using Minions? This is almost as good as a SS+VoR+Panic+Shared Burden combo. It'll work, but the synergy is not good.

And while we're on about what skills aren't used well by heroes, let's have a look at Death Nova. I mean, I guess technically we can count on it being where it needs to be...since it will be maintained on everything that moves, but that's not really a good use of time and resources. And it makes your MM and Company late for every party.

Personally, I've found that minions eat Shelter and Union, and its not the minions we're trying to prot (hence the Death Nova) and you're better off either changing the prot setup away from ST completely or dropping the MM for another direct damage dealer. I have been choosing the latter in most zones and VQs lately and been very happy with the results.

But, if you DO run the ST with the MM, then you will definitely want AoU on that bar. It is true they dont use it with the best timing, but they DO use it, and they aren't so bad with it as to make it completely useless. When your minions blow up shelter and Union in the foes 1st cast (which means they didnt die, btw, and all that Death Nova is still not helping you) you'll see what I mean.

Its just not a good combo.

Anaraky

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak
View Post
I'm pretty surprised at seeing people suggest the MM and ST combo - especially when "heroes dont use Armor of Unfeeling well - change it for something else"
SO - we're dropping the ST's AoU and using Minions? This is almost as good as a SS+VoR+Panic+Shared Burden combo. It'll work, but the synergy is not good.

And while we're on about what skills aren't used well by heroes, let's have a look at Death Nova. I mean, I guess technically we can count on it being where it needs to be...since it will be maintained on everything that moves, but that's not really a good use of time and resources. And it makes your MM and Company late for every party.

Personally, I've found that minions eat Shelter and Union, and its not the minions we're trying to prot (hence the Death Nova) and you're better off either changing the prot setup away from ST completely or dropping the MM for another direct damage dealer. I have been choosing the latter in most zones and VQs lately and been very happy with the results.

But, if you DO run the ST with the MM, then you will definitely want AoU on that bar. It is true they dont use it with the best timing, but they DO use it, and they aren't so bad with it as to make it completely useless. When your minions blow up shelter and Union in the foes 1st cast (which means they didnt die, btw, and all that Death Nova is still not helping you) you'll see what I mean.

Its just not a good combo. Another option is to go with a Minion Master instead of a Minion Bomber, since protecting those Bone Fiends is actually pretty decent use out of Shelter.

Vladimir94

Vladimir94

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

dont worry about it

the fallen solace knights[fsk]

N/

Update #2:



I changed the minion bomber to a minion master for more synergy with ST, and adjusted the ST's build to have more prots. Also changed the air ele with an SoS rit with splinter weapon. I also put panic and ineptitude were they are meant to be, it was an obvious mistake.

All feedback is still appreciated!

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

-Order of Pain is useless. Minions are not party members, therefore it will not affect them.
-ST Rit: No points in Prot Prayers?
-Having so many heals on the N/Rt seems redundant. They all recharge quickly. I'd see if it's worthwhile moving some of the curse/blood stuff to that bar.
-Your MM is probably going to have energy issues.

Vladimir94

Vladimir94

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

dont worry about it

the fallen solace knights[fsk]

N/

Update 3:



Still uncertain which the healer. Do I keep a n/rt or go with a monk? If a monk, what would be best, UA, Healing Burst, WoH?

Plutoman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2010

E/

You're getting a lot of mixed advice from a lot of players that have their own biased opinions. N/Rt healer is just fine, as is a UA healer with party heals. WoH is okay, but I'd go for Healing Burst and UA over it. All have pros and cons, just like the rest of the heroes. I usually find UA healers lacking on the energy side, but better with healing overall - I usually use BiP with them to solve that, as well as the Ineptitude's, energy problems (you are going to find issues on the Ineptitude, Arcane Conundrum isn't used well by heroes for e-management - but it should be okay for most times with time between battles).

If you try mesmer e-gain on a UA, you run into the stacking problem that Lex discusses. Go with your gut feeling.

Displacement doesn't necessarily > Aegis, Aegis is more reliable and doesn't conflict with ST's Shelter, but is also higher block and can be shorter depending on the amount of melee. So there's more pros and cons.

What I can tell you is how heroes work. Skills, everyone's biased about their skills. And with 7H, there's a lot of good combination of builds that work, so it's hard to get good input. Typically people will just bring up their fav skills, so I'm going to go back to heroes themselves.

1st bar - heroes use dismiss condition (if I got the skill right?) as a heal, not as condition removal. Not bad, but it may not be the purpose you want because they won't prioritize removal of conditions, and the Rit may start healing instead of protecting. It's something to test, not just guess at (as in, take it out for a run, and just take a look at what skills the hero's using while playing). Overall, my own opinion (just opinion) is that it's a low benefit for the amount of protection - other skills scale to low level protection better, like Aegis, Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorption, only the last of which is usable effectively with the ST's spirits.

2nd Bar - There's 4 heals on the bar, each on low recharge. A hero will only have enough time to spam two of them, and not any more, because of aftercast. They also don't know which ones to use at what times (am I low on energy - soothing memories? Need a self heal, too - ghostmirror?) - they'll use them in the wrong orders, healing someone with spirit light and then soothing memories on themselves after dropping PwK, for example. Cutting it down to two, maybe three, heals will reduce a heroes confusion. I'd always recommend (imo) MBaS for extreme condition removal, and Spirit Light for spike catches, powerful red-bar. Soothing Memories is to be used if the hero has energy troubles. Ghostmirror, while it looks useful, tends to fall short compared to the usefulness of those other skills (again, my opinion here).

Bar 4 - Necro elite escapes me. Otherwise, heroes should be fine with that.

Bar 5 - If the shouts don't bother the energy too much, it should be fine - just keep an eye on it ^^

Bar 6 - Such a powerful bar of illusion skills is marred by the fact that heroes don't use Arcane Conundrum as good e-management. It's a great utility skill, and it's good for that purpose alone (rather good, tbh), but the mesmer will run out at times. How often, that depends on how fast you move through mobs, and how much the interrupts work. You aren't using too many, so it may work okay in general. I don't know if the bar needs changing, but I'm letting you know about the issues heroes can have.

Bar 6 - Fine, but, in my opinion, if you have areas with smaller, or more spread out, groups (such as most of Tyria), Panic is definitely unnecessary, and ineffective. I'd say to use E-Surge.

Bar 7 - Pretty standard SoS rit, nothing new there. I liked the Invoke ele (more opinion here), especially because it added a lot of direct spikes and you already are using weaken armor (making it more powerful still), but the SoS is decent enough in it's own right. Not as much damage, but more utility, particularly with splinter.

Tried to let you know where my opinions came in to play. Take them as you will, there's some help for ya.

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

A couple of things that might help you decide what healer you want:

IMHO the guts of a standard N/Rt healer are:
- SOLS for energy, keeps them going a bit when foes aren't dying.
- Spirit Light strong direct spike heal
- Mend Body and Soul, strong condition removal and ok heal
- Protective was Kaolai for on-demand party heal

Optionals in rough descending order are:
- An elite. There is nothing fantastic in Restoration, Xinrae's weapon is my favourite. Weapon of Remedy is good when you expect a lot of life steal (Rot Wallows etc). Blood is Power with 8 blood magic is an option if your team needs it.
- Life. Good passive heal of party and allies, a spirit that's always up for Spirit Light.
- Various protective weapon spells, e.g. Weapon of Warding and Weapon of Remedy. These clash with splinter in a physical team, but they would be fine in yours.
- Rejuvenation for countering strong bursts of degen, e.g lots of burning.
- Recuperation for when you have vast numbers of allies, e.g. Vizunah Square or Battle of Lion's Arch.

A similar option is a resto rit using the elite Offering of Spirit for energy and otherwise built much like the N/Rt. This has even better energy than the Necro. It can go Rt/Mo for hex removal or monk prots (better than weapon spells in some roles). The main problem with this is that you only get two rit heroes.


A UA monk has some combination of heal/prot/smite, but it has to be cheap spells. I see three main reasons to run UA:
- It's a godly powerful res, especially useful in missions with no shrines. It frees res slots elsewhere -- put Death Pact Signet on one fast casting mesmer for backup and you're done.
- Very decent on-demand party heal from Divine Healing plus Heavens Delight, and incidental divine favour bonus healing from other skills.
- You can have hex removal, which is more important for physical teams.

With the ST covering prot, you could run something like: UA, Gift of Health, Signet of Devotion, Heaven's Delight, Divine Healing, Smite Condition, Smite Hex, Smiter's Boon, 11+1+3 DF, 10+1 Healing, 10+1 Smiting.

UA does not match N/Rt for condition removal, countering degen, or healing allies/minions, and it hasn't got quite the healing oomph, but it's got an elite that's really nice.


I use both according to the situation.Things that would encourage me to use UA:
- You die a lot
- There are no shrines, especially in long missions.
- Fall Back is covering degen and allies.
- Conditions are no problem (or a Foul Feast + Infuse Condition necro is handling them).
- Hexes are a problem.
- You don't face lots of enchant stripping.
- You have an ER prot/infuse who is good spike heal and spot prot, while UA is good at big picture stuff.
- Undead to smite as a sideline.


Well, I hope this helps a bit.

Plutoman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2010

E/

I've always liked stacking divine favor up to 14-15, for a solid high percentage boost. Makes those D-Kisses heal for 130+ unconditionally, and 180+ conditionally (approximate numbers, I'm going off the top of my head here) - with a pretty easy condition to meet. The party healing can do 100+ each, if I remember correctly.

Above post is a pretty good summary, though I think it has the healing part down pat (better, I'd say + an amazing res), the degen and condition removal lacks compared to the N/Rt, and it has poorer energy management in contrast.

Wenspire

Wenspire

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2008

USA - W.Coast

HiME

Mo/

Since he is running an mm any type of healer will work. Necro-based healers are good because of poor ai (en management). IMO, a properly setup monk hero works best. Of course, it also depends on how well the 2nd backline partner (the one covering the prot duty) is set up. The worse it does it's job, the more pressure it puts on the healer.

Vladimir94

Vladimir94

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2010

dont worry about it

the fallen solace knights[fsk]

N/

Yet another update:



changes:
changed the necro rit to an offering of spirit healer. Brought back the invoke lightning ele for damage spike, and switched around skills for better energy management.

Plutoman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2010

E/

Looks solid to me. Prolly not a lot of people's ideas of ideal, but I'd say it'll do the job just fine, with relative easy and plenty of damage. The only thing it's lacking is a lot of hex removal, so hex-heavy areas will need some spot changes. In areas with heavy AoE, you'll probably need to modify it because the minions will suck up shelter charges, and with heavy AoE (Sacnoth Valley, Dasha Vestibule, etc) it'll drop pretty fast. Otherwise it should do it's job great.

Dzjudz

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

On the second rit I'd take SoS as the elite and swap ghostmirror/recuperation for spirit siphon. And take Ancestor's Rage.

Premium Unleaded

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

OoS is channeling. AI also sucks at using it correctly iirc.

Since you're a necro, then ap/mop + 3 spears + SoS/splinter bot + resto nec + 2 optionals will be better than pretty much everything else possible by miles imo. Whoever you put into the 2 open slots will be the pace bottleneck of the team mind you.