HA matches need to take the total rank levels in the team into account

I post a logically absurd statement.

People agree with me.

What the everloving RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO?

I'm surprised that that sort of stupidity surprises you here.

Obvious sarcasm by reverend didn't get spotted. Good lord.

The problem with HA is that all the old HA kids left HA to go GvG because now GvG is just flag pushing a.k.a. the same thing they did on relic running. I'm not joking... it's the same damn thing. GvG used to be way more strategic and pretty good HA guilds used to lose to mid-range GvG guilds. That doesn't happen anymore. Why is HA dead? because GvG is HA... with exception to cake split... which is probably why [WHAT] a.k.a. [Cake] is the best guild in GW and their monks got buildwarzed during the last MAT or they would have won that too. [WHAT] splits on any hall against any team and wins... why? Because they require teams to do more than just flag push.

End of discussion. If you want to HA, just GvG because that's what everybody else is doing, as far as PvP is concerned. In retrospect, PvE is what everybody else is doing though... so... yeah...

By the way, I'm a rank 5 hero (just never HA unless coerced by others) and I have played with rank 12-15 players quite a few times in HA (when GvG hours are dead) and the reason why they ask me to play with them, even though I don't know what the hell I'm doing, is because I listen to the experienced people and at least put forth effort to correct my mistakes. I know for a fact that if you understand that people who have about x100 the experience you have tell you something, they are probably right. If you don't understand why they are right, do it anyways and ask them after the match is over and they will explain it to you. It's not a hard concept... really. If you find it hard to find groups, you aren't looking hard enough. Go to QQ and join a gvg guild. Get to know some people and don't be an idiot.

^knows exacty what he's talking about. Thread should now be closed

What is really pissing me off is that simply because I am "high rank" that means that clearly I am not reaching out to anyone. This past month my guild has gotten 4 new people their bambi.

So please tell me how I am a horrible person because you demand to be reached out to, but refuse to do anything on your part to find and accept help from those willing to reach out to you.

This would be a great idea if we could go back in time and implement it back during the days of prophecies when pugs where still alive and people actually cared.

These days:

Is pretty much correct. The HA community is a tight nit community and many of the players in that community play for sport, not rank. Contrary to what many PVE players believe, HA is not about rank. HA is about politics. Network, join a pvp guild, actually be good at the game, and you will find yourself being let into said tight nit community. Rank is used as a "guesstimate" of how good a random pugster nobody has heard of may be, and nothing else. If people have heard of you and know how you play then no one cares about your rank. I've gotten into r12 groups back when I was only r4 through connections and the people knowing how I play. No one ever asked me for my rank when I was in those groups. No one actually gives a shit.

Obviously my message got across, and I have already said that high ranking people who wants to continue to exploit this, by ensuring easy victory against new comers, may not like this suggestion so I already expected this response from high ranking players. This is why many new comers shun and would continue to shun HA.

Also don't play the "I am the poor victim" role, don't make this about you personally.

Not about rank?



This is typical screenshot of HA. Look at the r9+, r10+, and r7+ invites, what are those?

You obviously didn't read the second half of my post.

Your point of getting into groups based on reputation alone just doesn't apply to new comers.

Read Brains post again. The HA community is dead. That reputation comes from GvG now.

I'm not saying rank scaling is a bad idea. It just comes too late. The HA community is controlled by the GvG community. Those teams you see there just want a good player. You think the people in those teams actually are all R7 and R10+ Etc? No. Those teams are probably all Guilds and alliances like 99% of all non randomway teams are these days. They just want a player to add that isn't a failcow, extra rank for having a low ranked person just isn't worth it.

That being said I wouldn't mind seeing rank scaling just for the fun of it to see what happens to HA. Just as long as it starts at 100% and scales upwards from there otherwise some people might rage. It's already dead, what's the worst that could happen? lulz.

This entire suggestion is like saying "let's force DoASC guilds to take DwG noobs with them, because it's unfair they can do it faster and better than them". I.e. pretty fcking stupid.

Forcing players to play with others isn't gonna help anyone.

This.

Whenever I've HA'd within the past few weeks/months, it's always been fight the Zaishen, clock resets 4 times and I finally get a match in the first map. 90% of the time the opposing team is Henchway. Win. Wait for another 4-5 clock resets, Halls skip.

No one is playing Heroes Ascent anymore, except for r11+ guilds who hold halls, r0-3 henchway pugs, and the occasional bored GvG guild.

Your suggestion would probably convince nearly everyone who is r9+ to finally quit the game, since you'd be taking away their in-game rewards. HA would have as much activity as the Codex Arena, and PvP would take one giant leap backwards into obscurity.

/notsign

the presumption of entitlement is awesome, get some backbone and earn your place in HA, be nice, make friends, use observe for christ sake

and don't presume pps don't take new people sometimes, the active pvp community that gives a damn about posting on guru is small, what is said here isn't definitive

as for how dead HA is, well, there are many many reasons why, but mostly i'd say anet's ineptitude with nerf/updates and their utterly strange favouring of lame assed eB sz FAT cc MATH etc shitways, since most of my friends just got bored with that shit and left to play SC and LoL

I think it needs a change to jump start it, at least worth a try. The first thing that turns off a rankless person interested in HA is that you can LFG for 30+minutes and still not get into a team.

I joined those teams that asked for rank and they are really serious about the rank because they wanted proof before entering a game and they wont negotiate.

If ANet implement it in a way that the rewards still stay the same if they win, only difference is that the low ranked team would get MORE rewards if they win against a high ranked team.

What is that psychological defense where you apply your faults to others?


Daesu. Everything you have been saying is about PuGing in ID1.

No one that knows what they are doing in HA joins those groups. The people that know what they are doing form from guild/alliance/friendlist.

Aside from that those groups in the photo are doing you a favor by not letting you in. You don't want to be in those groups. I have I high enough rank that I could get into those groups. I do not. Well unless I have an odd fancy to watch a trainwreck unfold.

I truly wish those groups in your picture would have taken you. I really and truly do. Then just maybe you can get it through your head that complaining about bad PuGs wanting rank requirements then trying to generalize to the rest of the HA players is piss poor reasoning.



Get it out of your head that PuGing is the only way into HA. Join a PvP guild. Don't act like a spoiled brat. Don't act entitled. Listen to what they say. Try to get better. And voila you suddenly have HA groups.

People will reach out if you let them and are willing to reach back. Standing in ID1 is not how you do that.

I understand what you are saying but step into the shoes of a rankless PvEer for a moment. They enter HA to join a team and what do they see? They can't get into a team with someone who knows what they are doing. How can they avoid feeling frustrated and quit?

Why are there not enough teams? You guess maybe the fact that it is that tough for a new comer to participate is a big reason for it?

Join a guild.

/thread

That may work for a select few but definitely cant be the solution for everyone. They have friends in their current guild. They wont know if the pvp guild would work for them and they may still want to PvE with their guildies from time to time.

If you really want to get into HA/GvG you should be naive enough to stay in your PvE guild. You'll make friends in the other guild as well. And hey, maybe if you grow tired of the PvP and go back to PvE, you'll be on someone's friendlist and you'll get pm's to join them to roll some noobs in HA... Me probably being one of those noobs, but anyhow..

If you don't want to put the effort in, you shouldn't get the reward. But nowadays, everyone is QQ'ing it's too hard to get them and want them handed... You give them a finger and they want your arm (actually, dunno if that's an expression in english, but it's one in my language, so)..

I am just giving my perspective from a PvEer point of view. I used to GvG often with my old guild but everyone's gone from that guild.

I wanted to see how current HA is, and if the experience is good, I would visit there more often and perhaps get to know more regulars when I do that. Unfortunately, the only way to do that seems to be to leave my current guild (which has a lot of cool people in it by the way), to join a HA guild. It is too big a step for most people to be really honest.

I played since game released. I had 3 fame until I started playing with my guild. Join a guild.

Are you complaining that the PuGs forming are not representative of the people playing the game? How are PvE people supposed to know this? I dunno how about looking around. That lone character looking for a group for thunderhead keep, not hard mode, not bonus, just the mission. The empirical evidence is already there.

PvE players in this game are spoiled. It isn't about finishing content, it is about how efficiently content can be finished. PvP is about being as competitive as you can be, just so you can finish content (win).

You do realize that I am about as PvE as it gets? I usually don't get into PvP discussions because they are so far from my bed, but this one was just too stupid..
The only PvP I do is occasionally get some guildies together and run some gimmicky build cause the only thing we're pro at rolling is AI, not other people.. Running anything more complex than Invoke spike has proven disastrous..

To give you a PvE analogy, your entire point is like saying "hey, I'm in [KISS] but I only know how to DwG in DoA. I don't want to leave my super duper cool guild full of pro members to go to a DoASC guild, but I want to learn it. I think I'll QQ some and hope that Anet forces them to take me along in their runs. That will make everyone happy! And especially me!"
See the flaw? I sure as hell do...

Really, though, it sounds like you want to get into HA on your own terms. If you can make connections without leaving your guild, by all means, do it. The guild tag is just a convenience, after all - the current top GvG guild in the world has its members distributed throughout four different guilds. However, having other priorities and commitments in a team format is not something particularly attractive to anyone interested in recruiting you. After all, as a new player, anyone playing with you is making an investment of time. It's up to you to justify it.

Well, he did say in that post that he ran a training guild or program for a reasonable period, after which he wrote that post.

This is a recurring pattern whenever PvP training is offered. In Xen of Onslaught's GvG training in 2006, most players weren't interested in doing anything to genuinely improve, beyond the bare minimums, which I presume was the reason only a couple of the 50 members or so at the time proceeded to have future success in GvG. In kiSu, Billiard's GvG training project after XoO, the same thing happened.

As harsh as it might sound, making people help themselves might just be a good way to weed out everyone who won't benefit from help being proffered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose

Newcomers are just lazy and unmotivated. I went into HA one afternoon with 0 fame and no knowledge of how to pvp. I pm'd a few people I saw with r10-12 and introduced myself, asking how I should go about learning to HA. it's been two weeks since I did that and now I play in r12+ teams with 120 fame to my name.

The problem isn't high-rankers dont want to help, it's that newcomers aren't willing to put in the extra effort to learn.

@ Lemming ...I tried to contact ppl about learning pvp...I did not contact those on here who over the course of time...I realized I just clash with them, so there was no point. After about 2 months I finally got into a group via ig for ha and gvg. What I found was it wasn't really that hard to play...it was more of a pain to set-up and get past the initial learning curve. For me the time issue was unbearable.

The main problem with PvP is lack of players........The barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. There have been no solutions put forth to remove this crutch. All I constantly hear is deal with the crutch. This is piss poor on any account.

I really do wonder if the pvp crowd wants the population problem improved or fixed. It seems like most live in a nostalgic sense of denial where they want it to be like it was at the start but want to ignore what it has become.

Oh well...I'll stop trying to figure out how pvp might be helped...it's not my problem. I'll simply sit back and smile as the format slowly fades. Que sera, sera.

In the end, it is just a suggestion you dont have like it. Just like new comers don't have to like it because this is how current HA runs.

Like what Essence said, the barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. Sure we can leave things exactly as they are and do nothing about it, or try something new.

If most of you are already happy with the current state of HA, then sure leaving things as they are is certainly an option. It is not my responsibility on how this game is to be designed, I can only offer suggestions from a new comer's point of view.

I have said all I wanted to say and I have nothing more to add. Feel free to close this thread.

So this is not the most eloquent comment I have ever written but just bear with me.

Listen.... you concede that the main problem with PvP is lack of players. So we will start with that premise since both parties have found common ground that we can formulate arguments from. You then proceed that forcing the current HA players to do things that they don't want to do will not drive them away from the format and will, in turn, increase the number of players in that format. Your fatal conceit is that you think there is this massive pool of PvE players that are interested in HA if they could only get into a group. This is just not true. The problem in PvP is that it has abandoned all forms of micro-tactical play on virtually all non-monk characters, thus making that position independent of player skill, leaving monks with the only skillful role in the format. GvG isn't dying because there isn't a big enough influx of new players. GvG is dying because newer teams without ultra-pro backlines can not win matches. The lack of new players is the symptom of this problem. Believe it or not, there used to be a time when people would say things like, "that guy is such a good warrior." or, "If we had that mesmer on our team, we would win more matches.". Does anybody say that anymore about anything except monk? Think about it. "If only we had that Av of Balth dervish, we would win more". "It's too bad we don't have that Sig of Suffering necromancer on our team. He is so pro". Nobody says that because anybody and everybody who is not a monk is almost to the point of pure irrelevance. Is there a difference between top 100 dervishes and rank 1000 dervishes? yes... but only in so much as they possibly know how to react to splits a bit faster or they body black during flag pushes a bit better. Wooohooo! That's a game changer!!! That is why HA died and GvG is on it's way to death. HA had this problem WAY before GvG developed it so it makes sense HA died first. I have already commented on other threads what I believe the solution is so I'm going to just stop talking now.

This isn't rocket science people. It's guild wars. Just use your common sense. GvG used to be popular and now it isn't. In my opinion, HA always supported unhealthy game types and skilless strategies. GvG was HA's crutch. What happens when GvG starts to die from the same symptoms HA had? HA players go to GvG and GvG players quit the game. Ultimately, what changed? GvG used to be fun and now it is less fun. It's not balance. It's because we lost an entire play style that made this game different from other MMOs.

Do you want to fix HA? Then it starts with reworking skills away from the "paragon mentality" and more towards the "bull's strike mentality".

I'm sure I'll be called elitist or exclusionary for this post. Step into my shoes for a moment, however - I've been in your shoes before; the converse is not true.

Honestly, for what purpose are you interested in trying HA? Again, it seems like you're only willing to do everything on your own terms. If you can improve without outside assistance, by all means, go for it. At this point, however, I'm reasonably sure that the attitude you're displaying is impairing any efforts you've made towards getting a foot in the door.

Incidentally, you may want to read this; I believe you may see a bit of yourself in it.

Don't play the "I am the poor victim" role. You've been explaining your experiences, and we've been explaining the reasons behind those experiences. You don't have to take our word as any kind of gospel, but if you refuse to acknowledge it at all, then there's not much of a discussion to be had.

Basically...I have done everything in pve 11k+ hours worth...I am a gl of a large 3yr old PvE guild that is basically running on social interactions as most of us have done everything in pve. Some of my guildies have hinted interest in pvp...so ofc I looked into it...that is/was my interest.

Believe me if I could have avoided the 2 months of searching and the countless hours setting teams and builds up for ha and gvg...I would have. If I had those choice I definately would NOT have made that time part of my terms. Spending more time setting up rather than actually playing does not really suit me.

Quoting the dunning kruger effect is a very popular forum debating "tactic". I had hoped for a more refreshing ad hominem. I do not claim to be an expert on PvP...nvr said I was. I do not claim to know the perfect solution to fix pvp...nvr said I did. What I do know is the perspective of a pve player attempting to break into pvp.

I read Brians post and I will agree with him that there are fundamental skill/profession issues (which lessen the need for "micro-tactical" play) in the various formats. I however disagree that fixing those issue will bring a signifcant number of ppl to pvp. It is of my "opinion" that that will mainly fix pvp play for the current pvp population and not so much for prospective players as new players are not overly concerned with such issues.

I think a very simple fix for HA is

to have fixed bar for each profession, each week or month etc.

so that people do not really have to spend 10 hours making the build, and lose in 1 min, without knowing whats went wrong.....and quit, and blame on other players skill, but actually the build is inferior than other teams.

players will simply just used the fixed bar, and do not really have to care about the skills with all sort of opinions that really don't help anything in the team...as most of the time in a group usually is the leader who gives the build, and pug and players will mainly copy it and run it...

groups can be formed easier, as the builds are more expected.

True that it will decrease complexity, but complexity and barrier to entry should also be balanced...either is too extreme, will just be meaningless as a game for players to stay playing.

So HA would be 8man Codex? That's even more stupid than the thing the OP suggested. If you can't make synergy within builds and you can't figure out how your skills work, i.e. READ your skills, don't bother playing PvP...

not even codex, codex you still can choose upon different skills from profession, but what I'm suggesting is a fixed bar, you join, already have the whole skill being given....somewhat like costume brawl.

please note that the complexity in codex and ha is totally different story...

in codex you don't have to run relics, capture, hold, with 8 players....

you can make a game very complex like you have to spend 100 hours too kill a dragon, but not really many players have that 100 hours to spend...they will just leave...and it is the case in HA.

Oh, I get what you're trying to accomplish...
Oh wait, I don't. Is it ruining the format? I think that's a good guess.

maybe the winner of HOH can obtain a token to have an option to setup the bars or remain with the old bars for the whole guildwars community.

who wins, who is the boss, it is more interactive, can be who wins the most in the same day, who has the most token in the week etc to fix the bar.

players who wishes to change the bars, must win the creator of the skill bars.

if it is good build, it will stay longer than other, and anet developer don't really have to spend time making the fix bar themselves.

players can still practice skills, and maps, and have more focus knowledge of builds.

and the fun is even crap builds can be run in HA, as all other players using the same build

You guys keep saying "it's unfair we have to spend time to learn the format, so let's change to format". How is it unfair? The pro's had to learn it, everyone prior to you had to learn it, just cause you're either too lazy or to dumb to learn it shouldn't be a reason to change it.

not about pro or noob, I am not blaming them... it is the system do not sustain players... so it needs to be fixed...

Explain how exactly does the system not sustain players?

map skipping, no opposing opponent, hoh more of 1vs1 than 1v1v1, maps are not fully utilized.

I like how your "solution" doesn't address any of those points, regardless of their validity.
Decreasing the reward for experienced people... where is the logic in that?