GvG Update June 10th 2011 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

UnicornStampede

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2011

11 Jun 2011 at 09:12 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

Ok ive only read a bit of this but im a bit confused and trying not to lmao at same time.Few days ago we have on guru posts about getting strongboxes thru cheating and players complaining and some even suggesting the time gets lengthened to stop the resigning.Now anet does this and now we still have ppl moaning how the times increased.
Only thing i can say is - tough!!.
No way are both sides going to be pleased so one side has to live with anets fix - those who are complaining would seem to be players who exploited gvg before and are now crying over it ( if im mistaken on any players i say sorry ) as they cant make money as fast now selling strongboxes.

The ideas we suggested wouldn't harmfully affect the actual real gvgs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Indirectly , farming boxes isn't going to end because of that , but i don't see the point of complainers considering :
- Usually GvG fights always last more than 5mn , if team resigned before , 90% of time it will be because of DC
- Even if team is resigning , you still earn ladder points , you only don't get a chest and that's the same than pre-update

1) Not really, trip derv meta is roll or get rolled.

2) Before pre-update, very few casual guilds played GvG, making it dead in the american scene.

papryk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Nancy

The Autonomy[?????????]

11 Jun 2011 at 09:33 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

On the bright side, it looks like they've banned a few guilds off the bottom end of the ladder.

yup. i heard that too . some friend got banned from what i heard....and even one guy with 3k fame to r15 xd

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

11 Jun 2011 at 10:18 - 43

Yes but that's not the way to solve GvG problems.... Right now we're running henchs , thus we have no chances against top guilds running standard wiki meta with ranger + blood necro... However , we got ourselves to top100 in a matter of time because almost every opponent resigns at begin....

Their update didn't do anything , more over , punishing us when we timekill at 2-4 leading to mass resign, whereas syncers will still afford waiting 5mn....

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

11 Jun 2011 at 10:18 - 44

Quote:

if U could make more $ in PvP than PvE... then why wouldn't a PvE'er switch?

Cause, (a) the PvEr prefers PvE, simple as that - maybe PvP is too stressfull or he just likes the coop of PvE instead of coop vs another coop of PvP, and (b) because it's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin damn hard to get into PvP other than RA and JQ/FA if you have no PvPing friends already. And i'm not talking about the PvEr's lack of skill, or at least, not mainly.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

11 Jun 2011 at 10:25 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by papryk

....and even one guy with 3k fame to r15 xd

That is too funny XD

Our Virus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2011

The Capital [Para]

P/

11 Jun 2011 at 12:31 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Cause, (a) the PvEr prefers PvE, simple as that - maybe PvP is too stressfull or he just likes the coop of PvE instead of coop vs another coop of PvP, and (b) because it's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin damn hard to get into PvP other than RA and JQ/FA if you have no PvPing friends already. And i'm not talking about the PvEr's lack of skill, or at least, not mainly.

Join a PvP guild to help start you off? My guild led our group of new guys to their first halls win yesterday. They love it

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

11 Jun 2011 at 14:58 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Indirectly , farming boxes isn't going to end because of that , but i don't see the point of complainers considering :
- Usually GvG fights always last more than 5mn , if team resigned before , 90% of time it will be because of DC
- Even if team is resigning , you still earn ladder points , you only don't get a chest and that's the same than pre-update

The intent behind the 6/2/11 update was to INCENT players to play GvG (aka PvP love). Incentives are reward based. I applaud the use of sboxes to create the incentive - they have value to PvE'ers. That incentive ALONE is what has drawn more players into trying GvG since the update (I know that many of my guildies/alliance enjoy it). Are those that are drawn in the type "quality players" that most of us would like to see? Not always....

It would be simple to "disable" the resign feature in GvG & then only observe the matches that last less than 5 min to verify that the losing team wasn't doin the 55hp vamp thing or simply NOT moving from the base or using skills for example. Then ANET could take one of two actions... 1 -ONLY ban the bot accounts (ANET could then SELL/BAN more "bot" accounts to those that still intend to continue botting in the future) , or 2 - ban both accounts (reducing the player base size). Either way, THAT type of "match manipulation" can be addressed.

But, reducing incentives is NOT the approach to increasing the GvG player base. It is however a tactic that will trend towards a return to the "same as pre-update" condition...

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

11 Jun 2011 at 15:03 - 48

Virus - i don't feel like repeating myself, so take a look here.
On an unrelated note, beefing PvP with more rewards ain't the best way to attract more people to it. Not saying it won't work with some, and certainly is the easiest thing ANet can do, but there are bigger obstacles on the way to PvPhood than only 'meh, it's a waste of time' attitude.

tealspikes

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2009

11 Jun 2011 at 17:37 - 49

The problem is the GvG itself. It is designed for 10-20 minutes games but it can be legitimately won in less than 2. Add rewards to that and it's pretty obvious there's gonna be abuse. To fix the reward problem, you need to fix the format.

I put this suggestion in other thread: Make Guild Lord or Bodyguard invincible until a certain amount of time, and increase the number of NPCs like what we had in VoD days. Teams cannot resign before that time. Players that leave the game before that time become instantly dishonorable.

Since the lord won't die, teams won't accidently kill him before they can get the reward. Teams still have reason to push/prevent moral boosts, put dp on enemies, gank npcs, and build aggression during that time.

Kydd

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

[eyes]

11 Jun 2011 at 21:25 - 50

If you win within 5 minutes you have hardly any time wasted and your reward is winning and you get to go again. Hardly seems like a big deal to me.

Also while people may not be deterred from farming the boxes by cheating this will cut their rewards by more than half which is good enough imo.

UnicornStampede

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2011

11 Jun 2011 at 23:31 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kydd

If you win within 5 minutes you have hardly any time wasted and your reward is winning and you get to go again. Hardly seems like a big deal to me.

Also while people may not be deterred from farming the boxes by cheating this will cut their rewards by more than half which is good enough imo.

But the time it takes to find another match isn't that fast, (especially in american hours), so you are punishing good guilds by not letting them receive a strongbox.

And an extra 3 minutes does nothing toward the gold sellers, so all this is doing is annoying actual gvg guilds and punishing for being good.

dwchang

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Legion of Losers [LOL]

11 Jun 2011 at 23:46 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Indirectly , farming boxes isn't going to end because of that , but i don't see the point of complainers considering :
- Usually GvG fights always last more than 5mn , if team resigned before , 90% of time it will be because of DC
- Even if team is resigning , you still earn ladder points , you only don't get a chest and that's the same than pre-update

Your second point is true, but in my experience, a top level Guild can destroy a low to mid-level Guild in under five minutes or rather, it's very apparent the match is over within the first five minutes. In fact, if you lose at the flag stand very quickly, a lot of Guilds just resign out since they want to find another match. That's fine, but now they can indirectly (or directly) grief the other Guild by denying them a prize they legitimately won.

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

12 Jun 2011 at 10:57 - 53

add /report function for resigning out! (so people can abuse this too)

Destiny2097

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

12 Jun 2011 at 15:41 - 54

Quote:

If you win within 5 minutes you have hardly any time wasted and your reward is winning and you get to go again. Hardly seems like a big deal to me.

Have you actually GVG'ed in 2011 (or even at all)?

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

12 Jun 2011 at 17:45 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destiny2097

Have you actually GVG'ed in 2011 (or even at all)?

He does kinda have a point. Also:

With sustained activity this could be a good thing, less top guilds will play for the hell of it to get strongboxes when other top guilds aren't playing, leaving the mid/lower range guilds to fight it out and get stomped on less.

Whether the ladder's gonna remain active enough for that to be a good thing is questionable. Also the whole thing could've been done a lot better, but this probably requires the least coding/effort on their part so it's no surprise it's what's happened.

UnicornStampede

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2011

13 Jun 2011 at 02:45 - 56

What didn't happen from this update: Stoping the syncers from farming. (waiting an extra 3 min each match does nothing)

What happened from this update: Real guilds don't get a strongbox if they win under 5 min. Most guilds just resign before 5 min which griefs the other team from getting a strongbox

Nice job Anet, well done.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

13 Jun 2011 at 03:20 - 57

^^^

12chars

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

13 Jun 2011 at 07:31 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnicornStampede

What didn't happen from this update: Stoping the syncers from farming. (waiting an extra 3 min each match does nothing)

What happened from this update: Real guilds don't get a strongbox if they win under 5 min. Most guilds just resign before 5 min which griefs the other team from getting a strongbox

Nice job Anet, well done.

Exactly.... On several fights , we decided to just wait a few secs/mins at begin or after killing some , but realistically against good guilds ,you have no choice ....

Urcscumug

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2011

UNO

W/

13 Jun 2011 at 11:08 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnicornStampede

What didn't happen from this update: Stoping the syncers from farming. (waiting an extra 3 min each match does nothing)

What happened from this update: Real guilds don't get a strongbox if they win under 5 min. Most guilds just resign before 5 min which griefs the other team from getting a strongbox

Nice job Anet, well done.

This pains me so very much, especially since the core cheating mechanic is so very simple, and should have been fixed ages ago.

Expecting people not to cheat is stupid, stupid, stupid.

There's exactly two ways people cheat: sync, and arranged matches.

Fix sync. Get rid of pure ladder matches and leave only tournaments.

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

13 Jun 2011 at 20:11 - 60

I've thought about this a bit more. Roll back the 5 min limit to 2 min...

Implement a realtively simple multi-prong AUTOMATED solution to the sbox farming exploit:

1. disable /resign function from GvG = stops griefing except for entire team exiting or DC the game
2. any player that exits or DC receives minimum 1 hour dishonorable hex = slows amount of available bots which enables farming
3. no strongboxes awarded to winning team if losing team either A) doesn't move, B) doesn't use skills, C) sacs/vamps to death or D) uses less than max armor = stops bots which enables farming.

no AUTOMATED way to stop syncers where team of 8 intentionally tanks by moving &/or using skills

It occurs to me that his thread is going nowhere & should probably be closed

deluxe

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Monkeyball Z

S.K.A.T. [Ban]

Mo/

13 Jun 2011 at 20:16 - 61

Most of our games are won before 5 minutes, or people resign... this rule is lame...

Kanyatta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Guildless, pm me

R/Mo

13 Jun 2011 at 22:03 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnicornStampede

people getting money not honorably takes priority over the game being alive.

This.

12 chars

lursey

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

d2

R/N

13 Jun 2011 at 22:42 - 63

if you play gvg just simply for the reward, then don't play it.... gvg is supposed to be pvp not pve.

deluxe

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Monkeyball Z

S.K.A.T. [Ban]

Mo/

13 Jun 2011 at 23:17 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

if you play gvg just simply for the reward, then don't play it.... gvg is supposed to be pvp not pve.

Nobody is playing GvG just for the reward, point me to someone who is.
It's nice to get rewards though.
And it's a shame legit players don't get the rewards, but the pve players tanking and resigning to eachother do.
Currently there is a lot of griefing going on, people resigning just before the 5 minute mark etc.
Hell, even we do it now that it's been done 5 times to us on one day.

animal fighter

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2009

buying shields w/ armor vs animals

Animal Fightas Inc [?????????]

14 Jun 2011 at 04:28 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

if you play gvg just simply for the reward, then don't play it.... gvg is supposed to be pvp not pve.

why not? I wouldn't be playing if there weren't boxes. I mean it's fun to play, but there's no real reason to play gvg without the boxes. It gets boring too fast without a decent reward.

lursey

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

d2

R/N

14 Jun 2011 at 04:36 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by animal fighter

why not? I wouldn't be playing if there weren't boxes. I mean it's fun to play, but there's no real reason to play gvg without the boxes. It gets boring too fast without a decent reward.

because you should be asking for balance instead of reward...

Silverhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Virtual Benchwarmers [VB]

14 Jun 2011 at 04:54 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

because you should be asking for balance instead of reward...

This has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand. We are discussing the changes to strongbox rewards and how those negatively affect the actual teams playing, while doing nothing to stop people from abusing the system. Why you try to support the change with silly answers like this is beyond me.

lursey

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

d2

R/N

14 Jun 2011 at 05:39 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverhand

This has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand. We are discussing the changes to strongbox rewards and how those negatively affect the actual teams playing, while doing nothing to stop people from abusing the system. Why you try to support the change with silly answers like this is beyond me.

because if gvg is really fun, then player won't really farm the reward, but actually play the game....

Reverend Dr

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]

W/

14 Jun 2011 at 05:52 - 69

Anyone that has been "farming" strong boxes is a piece of shit that in no way is, has been, or ever will, help the game not be dead.

You can address these issues with complete impunity as there is no overlap what-so-ever.

Silverhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Virtual Benchwarmers [VB]

14 Jun 2011 at 05:58 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

because if gvg is really fun, then player won't really farm the reward, but actually play the game....

I and many others find GvG fun, so this point is subjective. This still doesn't address the strongbox issue. Do I need them? No, but they are nice. Do I think its fair that synchers get them, but people that manage to win by outplaying their opponent in 5 minutes dont? Well no and thats the issue here.

Apok

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2010

14 Jun 2011 at 06:00 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

because if gvg is really fun, then player won't really farm the reward, but actually play the game....

This post is the example of why the strongboxes were a bad idea from the beginning.

If something is tedious, boring, and a waste of time with no benefit, no one will be a part of it.

If something is tedious and boring but gives you prizes (not incentive) for doing it anyway, then people will get into it.

Basically, before the update, GvG was a chore with the only reward coming from beating a guild in a tournament. Which was controlled (to an extent) and had top players joining in.

After the update, all you had to do is beat someone random in ladder in the amount of time it took to get to the Lord Pit and boom, instant PvE goodies.

GvG, to most of the playerbase NOW, is a job. And not in the competitive sense.

UnicornStampede

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2011

14 Jun 2011 at 06:14 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnicornStampede

What didn't happen from this update: Stoping the syncers from farming. (waiting an extra 3 min each match does nothing)

What happened from this update: Real guilds don't get a strongbox if they win under 5 min. Most guilds just resign before 5 min which griefs the other team from getting a strongbox

Nice job Anet, well done.

self bumping

Ghost Dog

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

W/

15 Jun 2011 at 00:06 - 73

Where did anet state this was permanent?

St??phane Lo Presti

ArenaNet

Join Date: Apr 2010

Seattle

15 Jun 2011 at 00:25 - 74

Hi everyone,

We'd like to update you about the recent PvP activity following the June 10th PvP update. In analyzing recent GvG matches, we noted a number of players were engaging in match manipulation. As a result of this, the players’ accounts were terminated.

We want to remind everyone that match manipulation is a breach of the Guild Wars User Agreement and the Rules of Conduct, and those involved risk immediate account termination. We will continue to monitor the situation and take any appropriate actions that are necessary in the future.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

15 Jun 2011 at 00:33 - 75

I know this only slowed down the farming (which is still an issue)..... but to the ppl complaining about "oh this is bs we cant stomp other teams and get boxes"....really? Why should there be a reward for stomping a obviously lesser team? This hurt smurfing...so thats good! The boxes were meant as an incentive for new pvp players....not for seasoned players to gain for stomping the new players. When ya'll face teams that actually are near the same level......i.e.. last more than 5mins do to competition...you'll still get the boxes.
If the match wasn't going to last 5min or more then there really shouldnt have been the match in the 1st place nor should there be rewards for such.

Silverhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Virtual Benchwarmers [VB]

15 Jun 2011 at 01:29 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I know this only slowed down the farming (which is still an issue)..... but to the ppl complaining about "oh this is bs we cant stomp other teams and get boxes"....really? Why should there be a reward for stomping a obviously lesser team? This hurt smurfing...so thats good! The boxes were meant as an incentive for new pvp players....not for seasoned players to gain for stomping the new players. When ya'll face teams that actually are near the same level......i.e.. last more than 5mins do to competition...you'll still get the boxes.
If the match wasn't going to last 5min or more then there really shouldnt have been the match in the 1st place nor should there be rewards for such.

You clearly havent played many gvg matches lately. There are many times when a game can be won in under 5 minutes if you outplay the other team at the right time. Basing a monk right at 2 minutes with a pressure build can be gg even if the team is good. Match length =/= skill of the guilds involved.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

15 Jun 2011 at 02:45 - 77

If they are of the same skill level why wouldn't they be defending against this?

UnicornStampede

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2011

15 Jun 2011 at 03:05 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stéphane Lo Presti

Hi everyone,

We'd like to update you about the recent PvP activity following the June 10th PvP update. In analyzing recent GvG matches, we noted a number of players were engaging in match manipulation. As a result of this, the players’ accounts were terminated.

We want to remind everyone that match manipulation is a breach of the Guild Wars User Agreement and the Rules of Conduct, and those involved risk immediate account termination. We will continue to monitor the situation and take any appropriate actions that are necessary in the future.

hi

ok neat, but the update didn't really do anything that nerfs box farm (besides banning them), because all they have to do is wait 3 more minutes each match. However this causes extremely annoying problems for actual gvg guilds, since if they win before 5 mins, or the other team grief resigns before 5 mins, they don't get a box.

Silverhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Virtual Benchwarmers [VB]

15 Jun 2011 at 03:12 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

If they are of the same skill level why wouldn't they be defending against this?

Because no one knows exactly what the other team plays and frankly you can't exactly defend against getting outplayed. Honestly go watch some matches and you will see people in top 100 that get a monk based and then lose under 5.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

15 Jun 2011 at 04:59 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

If they are of the same skill level why wouldn't they be defending against this?

Dervishes.

I'm not even being facetious.

Watch basically any 8v8 match between top European guilds (LaG, wtf, DirT, rR, Est, Jh come to mind). If it has dervishes, odds are that it won't go past four minutes.