Mursaat's nature

Got a conversation before, I don't know why did some people were keep saying they are evil.


They killed many people, but they also saved the whole population of their kingdom before that. The Mursaat killed people not for fun, but to seal off the door, keep it from opening so the whole world won't have to face the Titans' wrath.. We can see in the time of the missions, once the souls were released, the TItans came out. Before you could find a way to keep the door shut, don't say there is other ways.

Your forum username explains a lot about this post...
It has all been discussed in great depth one multiple occasions.

The Mursaat saved Saul D'Alessio and his village and then immediately killed everyone but 3 White Mantle members. They told those three that they were the most devoted and sent them to gather followers. Followers that would do their bidding and kill innocent people atop the bloodstones to keep the Door of Komalie closed because the Titans behind the door are the only thing that can defeat them. They aren't intending on protecting anyone, they just don't want to be wiped out.
Vizier Khilbron tricks the players into opening the door in order to wipe out the Mursaat. However, Vizier Khilbron's intent is to instead use the Scepter of Orr to control the Titans and destroy the human kingdoms, as ordered by Abbadon, the dark god who wanted to plunge the world into darkness.

The Mursaat are/were an endangered race that despised humans and only put up with a few in order to unsure their race's survival.

That is something that has me bothered as well, their goal is not your typical goal an antagonist would do. Seeing how the player is being manipulated by the Lich from Sanctum Cay onwards to fulfil the Flameseeker Prophecies, wich has releasing the titans as goal. The Mursaat have been executing chosen people who could fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies and used their souls to strenghten the seals guarding the Door of Komalie and effectively prevent the titans from entering Tyria. The way they do it is also a very effective method; using the ones that pose a threat to power the seals instead trough sacrifice. Altough their actions are explained as evil and trough eyes of the human race are seen as evil it ends up being for a greater good. And with that piece of knowledge you can indeed question if they really are evil or are their actions simply misunderstood.

Yeah, before they killed these people they saved the whole Kryta's people from the charr. Too sad you didn't see it.

No, the Lich's goal was the whole Tyria, he said it many times. I don't know why would you say he simply wanted to destroy the human kingdoms.

Also where did it say they didn't think about the world? Their methods saved far many more people than they killed.

First of all, saying condescending and arrogant things like "too sad you didn't see it [my point]" is NOT conducive to a productive lore discussion.

Second of all, read the wiki article on the Mursaat. That is where as much of the known lore on the Mursaat is compiled. It directly refutes many of your arguments.


"The White Mantle and their Unseen gods rose to power during the war with the charr. Their grasp of Kryta was practically absolute when Saul and the elite of the White Mantle went on a suicide mission to assassinate the charr leaders in their main encampment. Though the plan succeeded, the rest of the charr army rained down upon them. In this moment, three mursaat - Optimus Caliph, Mercia the Smug and Lazarus the Dire - appeared and fought beside the Mantle, decimating the charr with their devastating magic. The charr were defeated and Kryta was saved - but at a high price.

When the charr were defeated, the mursaat turned on the White Mantle and murdered most of them. Saul was taken away by the mursaat as he realized his error in following them. Only three Mantle members were spared: Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis. The three survivors, whom the mursaat had deemed most devoted, told the Krytans that Saul had been killed by charr during their retreat back over the Shiverpeak Mountains."

Have you done the War in Kryta stuff? Remember those White Mantle who were/are killing and subjecting the populace? Well, those guys were the followers of the Mursaat; the Mursaat put them in power. That's pretty damn evil.

Also, as RedDog91 said above, they didn't care about saving Tyria, they cared about saving themselves. Their motives were selfish, not altruistic. Remember, the Flameseeker Prophecies did NOT say that opening the Door of Komalie would wipe out the world, only that it would wipe out the Mursaat, so the Mursaat did not think they were saving the world by keeping it closed. They didn't know what was behind the door, only that it being open would mean their deaths. Hence the sacrificing of the humans to keep that door closed.

Yeah what you quoted proved my point, they killed some but saved more.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_F...ker_Prophecies

Where did it say that they don't know what's behind the door?

The way i see the Mursaat is they want to be gods and they filled the role well. saved followers from a fearsome enemy (charr) then later killed all but the deepest believers and then they heard of the litch's plan and like it was said in iron man "If You Can Make God Bleed, Then People Will Cease to Believe in Him" they didn't want the titans which would defeat them to come out of komali and usurp them. sorry for any lore mishaps this is what i remember from proph last i played several years ago

Also I replied like that because he said the post got something to do with my ID

I really didn't get the point why would so many people think the Mursaat didn't know what's behind the door. They didn't say it.

I will add more info after get home. Later.

@SPK
Your quote from the Flameseeker Prophecies item is just subjective interpretation and written record that the main character has of past events. The information within is not complete nor absolutely correct. Your quote even starts off with "How could I have been so blind?", implying wrongness. To quote from something potentially wrong is poor form.

Ailina and Reddog pose good arguments which you seem to have misunderstood. Perhaps reading up on those other threads may help clear up your misunderstanding.

The Mursaat seemed to be very reclusive and passive in the world previous to the Prophecies.

It wasn't until the Prophecies started that they went on a bitch-fit evil tyrade.

Then how did they judge the Mursaat by saying their are selfish and didn't know what's behind, that's not subjective? Without giving any proof? I also pointed some mistakes in their thread.

I really don't know why would they say the Mursaat didn't know what's behind it.

Firstly, they were a powerful race that could easily take on most of the mortals, even the seers found way to defend they still lost. Why would such a powerful race simply believe the prophecy and afraid of what's behind the door without knowing the facts? Also it's a whole race, it's just like someone tell US there's something beneath Mexico that will wipe them out, sure some people might believe it, like Meeker in the game, but it's not logical that such a powerful race would believe it without knowing what's behind it.

Secondly, a very important point. The White Mantle was taking the Scepter of Orr as a very important task, even Confessor Dorian came to see it. In the game we saw how heavily was it guarded. The Mursaat is powerful enough to rule what they got. It's also a very good evidence that shows they know what's behind the door. Sure prophecy also said about it, but what made them to believe it?

Third, it's what the heroes judge upon all he saw and know, including that the Mursaat killed so many chosen.


Konig gave some points about that, the Lich could open the door after the seals are removed, the lava might cover the seal, the lich's soul didn't recharge the battery. So I went to watch the Cutscene on youtube.

The door was already opened before the Lich comes here.

We can see clearly that the soul battery was recharged by the energy. Yes maybe the Lich escaped later, but he surely provided enough energy to seal the gate off. Also it happened before the lava spill out.

Rather than watching the cutscene, go and do the mission. Khilbron gives us the Chimera of Intensity right before we assault the soul batteries - its far from unfeasible that he could have been waiting to use the Sceptre of Orr to blow open the door as soon as the lock was broken.

Now, it's certainly possible, even likely, that there are good or at least non-evil mursaat caught in all that - but even if their actions had some good results, the way they went about it was evil. Just because someone fights evil doesn't mean they're good, especially if they use evil means to do so. In fact, it's a fairly common villain template to have someone who uses evil means for the "good" of their victims - that's the whole theme behind Babylon 5.

And as Konig has said, we've seen no evidence of dissent among the mursaat, while in the case of the human nation that went evil (Kourna) pretty much everyone who wasn't in the military was upset at where things were going, and if not for dissenters in the military it would at least have been harder to stop Nightfall. Kourna was a land where an evil regime sat over a heterogenous population. The mursaat - we have no evidence of dissent, even if it's possible that that's just because we weren't in the right places to see it.

Regarding the question of the Flameseeker Prophecies - we simply don't know what Glint's reason for releasing those are. My suspicion is that it formed an elaborate trap - Glint realised that one way or another the Door of Komalie would be opened, so the Prophecies were used as a lure to ensure that it did the least harm (and possibly caused some benefit) in the process. Of course, the fact that Glint appears to be allied to the Seers implicates that putting the mursaat in the line of fire might not have been strictly necessary...

...but maybe it was. We simply don't know.

Either way, in Glint's opinion the failure of the Flameseeker Prophecies would have resulted in humanity's eradication. That's a pretty bad outcome if you happen to be human. On the question of why the mursaat believe the prophecy - unlike in the real world, they live in a world where magic is real, and it's possible they know of Glint's abilities. It doesn't seem so farfetched that the mursaat may give credence to the words of a former dragon champion turned champion of the gods when she predicts something

As was mentioned in the other forum, though - this question has come up regularly, and usually ends up going around in circles - and, frankly, those of us who've seen the cycle repeat multiple times are a little tired of it. To be fair, the possibility is open that the mursaat were simply caught in a bad situation doing what they felt they had to do to survive... but that doesn't mean their motives are good - at best, it's an act of desparation for their own survival. If they'd explained the situation and asked for volunteers that would be something different, but even then there could likely have been other options if they were willing to work with other races rather than kill them.

Either way, do try to keep the discussion polite, or I'll be forced to step on it like Leon did in the Priory.

Well still, we didn't see it happens, he could use his spell on us because we were so close at that time, if he could do it, why not keep that spell on us when he's far away? It's surely a lower rank spell than break the door.

What was the evil mean? Save their kind with the world, I don't think it's something wrong. Well. Even if save their kind is not evil for sure. Like real world, good people also kills good people sometimes, like the War of Troy, many of the Greek soldiers are good, but is Troy people evil? Is the perfect hero Hector evil? Don't get it wrong I'm not saying the Mursaat are good. If you say kill the chosen, well, they killed that to prevent a bigger doom, they also saved the whole kingdom before. Overall, they still saved more humans than the numbers killed, without them, Kryta would suffer the same fate as Orr, with more resources and lands, the Charr would grow even stronger, I doubt Ascalon could even hold for that long.

Glint's prophecy cause big disaster, the death of chosen, the invasion of the titans, countless souls went into the Foundry of Failed Creations to create more titans. We all know she's not evil, then her prophecy's possible good income is Kryta's survival and the Door's seal off. I have to say Glint used the Mursaat like the Lich used us.

Well the Elder Dragons went to sleep long long long ago. We don't know did the Mursaat know about those dudes, remember the Elder Dragons fall alseep after they wiped almost everything. The Mursaat are also very powerful themselves, don't need to be afraid of Glint, why would they believe Glint's words without knowing any fact? I don't remember she make prophecy before, only read others' minds.


I'm not saying they are good, either, I think they are a harsh but overall neutral race. Many people blame them for their "selfishness", but again we are not sure about how much did they know about the Titans(Looks more like they should know about the Titans). Yes they put themselves before others, chose to kill humans when the door need soul energy to be shut off. But let's ask: Will we, humans do the opposite when make that choice? Will we, the individuals put stranger's life before our own when someone has to die otherwise we are all doomed? There's a huge difference between "think about themselves first" and "think only about themselves" right?

i'm glad we're on the same page that morality is subjective. i'm also glad someone took care of those pesky mistakes.

the rest of your post is misdirected at me, i'm afraid. you don't have to convince me that the mursaat were honorable world-guardians(or manipulative murderers).

Of course they are not, I already said, they are a harsh but overall neutral race.

The Mursaat were doing a good job keeping the Door sealed, even if it might have been just for their own survival. However, the way they kept it sealed (human sacrifices) was questionable.

Like I said, will the humans do the opposite, sacrifices themselves rather than use Mursaat? It's just most of the races' nature.

Also, they save them all from the charr before.

There's a difference between willing(Master Togo giving up his life to protect his half-brother) and unwilling sacrifices(the Chosen being slaughtered on the Bloodstone), by the way.

I personally think the Mursaat have influenced far more then we know. If the Mursaat runes in the Hall of Judgement are canon to the Lore it would open up a HUGE series of questions becuase the Hall of Judgement has links to buildings and other structures across Tyira and Elona.

Just realized you made pretty much the same thread on GW2 guru and get angry at anyone that doesn't agree with your lore-breaking opinion(s) there also.

My suggestion would be to not be set on one idea and instead read every lore page about the subject on the wiki. And do so with a fresh mind. Leave every idea you have behind before reading, otherwise you'll continue to try and mold every sentence to fit your personal idea what what it should be.

Well it's not willing or not, someone must make the sacrifice or we will be all doomed. Will the humans do the opposite, or choose to not sacrifice anyone if they are at that position?

I read it long ago. Well I gave many points by using the lore. If you say lore breaking, is the heroes' we played, their opinion more lore-breaking? That's just funny.

Ack. Forum glitch ate my post, and I really don't have time to write it out in full detail again. You're going to have to live with the short form.

This is pretty much exactly what I've been saying regarding the centaur assassination, which as you may recall razor3999 has been trying to claim means the GW1 PCs are evil. I would say that Agamemnon (the mastermind of the attack on Troy) was a nasty piece of work, though.

On the Mursaat - Whether the sacrifices were necessary or not is something that we just don't have the information to prove either way. However, there are two ways in which the mursaat have inflicted suffering in ways that weren't absolutely necessary even if the sacrifices were. The first is the oppression by the White Mantle of Kryta's populace (apparently under the blessing of the mursaat, and while it's subtler in Prophecies than in the War in Kryta, it's there in the Hot Springs Murders quest and the Prophecies manuscripts), while the second is that there were far more sacrifices than were necessary to keep the door closed - the souls were also used to power other mursaat equipment than that on the door, and continued after the door had been sealed (All for One and One for Justice takes place three years after Prophecies).

I've said all along that it's possible that there were non-evil mursaat caught up in what happened, but their leadership definitely does seem to be made up of individuals with a callous disregard for the lives and rights of others.

Paris took Helen first and he's also no good, not anymore after he took Helen, if we have to look about it deeper, than it's the 3 goddesses, or even Eris, who made the golden apple started it.

Well I said the Mursaat are a harsher or darker race compare to humans, not all of their killings are necessary. But they also saved a lot of lives, more than they killed right? So overall I still judge them as a neutral race. Most of the chosen were used to seal the gate off.

Well, at least Paris did what he did for the sake of love. Agamemnon, as I recall, pushed to turn the diplomatic incident into war because he felt he could profit financially off it (and had been looking for an excuse for a while). But that's a digression.

Regarding the mursaat - the impression I get is that the lives saved were incidental to their strategy. Even if the sacrifices of the chosen were purely to eliminate the threat they posed (the scenario that provides the least incentive to the mursaat to help Kryta), pushing the charr out of Kryta provides them with two benefits - it kept the titan-worshipping horde away from the ports that could have been used to launch an assault on the Ring of Fire so the charr could threaten to open the Door themselves and it provides them with a puppet army. Spectral Agony is a powerful weapon, but it can be overwhelmed by numbers and that's where the mursaat fall short - having a human army to bulk them out can be useful.

Basically, it's the intention that matters, not the result. While the actions of the mursaat may have saved lives, they did not take those actions because they were concerned about human life (otherwise I would expect the White Mantle regime to have been less oppressive). Instead, the mursaat seem to have "helped" Kryta as a 'the enemy of my enemy is a problem for later, but in the meantime, they may be useful' move - they helped Kryta because stopping the charr there was better for them than potentially having the titan-directed charr swarm after them next, and then they got to work dealing with the problem of the Chosen. Saving life for its own sake appears to have never been one of their goals.

Incidentally, we have no firm data on what proportion of the Chosen sacrificed were used to seal the Door, just that some were and some weren't. It could have been most of them, or it could have been a small handful while the rest went into powering ether seals, jades, and other works of mursaat magic.

Paris took other's wife and after that he didn't act as a good leader in the war.

They kill and save for the same reason, to save themselves and we don't know how much they care about the rest of the world. It's not a evil goal, for this goal they killed many and saved more.

Which race other than dwarves and human themselves concerned about human lives during the war? We didn't see any other races cared about it and lay a hand to humans during the invasion, when humanity was in the edge of destruction. Even the 5 gods didn't do anything. But it's not their duty and we cannot say they are all evil. So why blame the Mursaat when they killed many but overall saved humanity during the darkest time? If they also stay aside and do nothing(including gave Saul wisdom), I guess people won't blame them but Kryta would surely fall and Ascalon would be in greater danger.

Because intent matters. The people the mursaat saved (assuming here that Kryta couldn't have saved itself with another leader to rally them - there's no evidence that the mursaat actually directly intervened except in that final battle. It's mostly Saul standing up and rallying the people when King Reza ran away - in fact, their overall campaign seems to have been to give Kryta the ability to fight the charr, and then remove their ability to resist by taking away the leader that they'd built up) weren't saved because the mursaat were feeling altruistic. It was simply because it fit with their own goals.

Let's say that you have three groups of people. Group A intends to commit genocide upon Group B. Group C intervenes, but in exchange for its intervention, it effectively enslaves Group B and demands a constant tribute of sacrifices. Does the fact that Group C saved some lives excuse the fact that it's killing some and oppressing most? No. Groups A and C are both acting in evil ways, it's just that their objectives happened to be clash. Evil is not monolithic - evil fights evil, and just because fighting between two evil groups means that lives happen to be saved doesn't make the less homicidal group less evil. It just means that they had different objectives and took the opportunity to act at a time that would best allow them to complete those objectives.

In short, because acts taken with evil intent happen to save some lives in the process does not excuse them from being evil.

Now, I've said a few times that this doesn't mean ALL the mursaat are evil. There are plenty of examples historically of evil regimes who have people who are at least not evil going along with them for various reasons. But at the level of their leadership, they're nasty pieces of work. And I certainly wouldn't be inclined towards putting humanity under their "protection" in the future like some have espowsed - the mursaat only care for humanity when it suits their own goals to do so.

Their intent was to save themselves, probably after that they also think a little bit about the rest of the world. Is it evil? No. Since you say intent does not make them good, then they also kill most of the people for that reason. Why save people didn't make them good but kill people make them evil when they did it under the same goal, which may not be noble but also not evil?

Without the Mursaat, there is no way Saul could become a good leader in such a short period of time. Without a leader Kryta will surely fall, Orr and Ascalon's king did better than King Reza but still didn't stop the destruction of their kingdom. Even without the foefire/cataclysm their kingdoms would still fall.

Also remember Group C killed most of the Group B people to make sure Group D, a very powerful group that can and want to wipe out both Group B and C. There is no other way to prevent it unless by these sacrifices. Other than that, I don't see where did the Mursaat treat people as slave, especially before the War of Kryta.

I was just addressing that in an edit. For clarity, cut-and-pasted below:

On the question of whether the sacrifices themselves were evil or a regrettable necessity: Assuming for the sake of argument that they were necessary, the line with many of these things is informed consent. For most people, rape is one of the most hideous crimes that can be committed upon an individual, in some cases rated higher than murder, but consensual sex clearly is not. If you had a group of people starving in the mountains and one volunteered to be killed and eaten so that the others might survive, that is a noble sacrifice - but if the others simply set upon one of their number during the night and killed and ate him, that would be murder. If, on the eve of having assisted in driving out the charr, the mursaat had revealed that the gods of the charr were very real and that volunteers were needed to give their lives to keep the door closed, that would be one thing - and they probably would have had volunteers to do so (there are plenty of other examples in Guild Wars of people willing to give their lives for a cause). Instead, they tricked them into believing they were being taken to be trained in magic, led them into the jungles, and murdered them. And in the process, continued the momentum of the self-fulfilling prophecy that would ultimately lead to their downfall.

Regarding Kryta's ability to survive on its own - well, Saul did seem to be a pretty good leader despite his origins and relative inexperience, and there are others that might have arisen (possibly Evennia or some of the other Shining Blade leaders, for example). However, the biggest reason for Kryta to have likely been more able to survive on its own is because the charr army sent to Kryta was probably a lot smaller than that sent through Ascalon and Orr. The primary objective of the charr was Ascalon, the primary objective of Abaddon appears to have been Arah - the attack wave sent to Kryta was probably just intended to make it so that Kryta couldn't intervene elsewhere even if it wanted to.

Ok, so tell them about the stuff, then will Kryta people allow themselves to get cut? No, they will surely say: #$% off, kill your own people to fulfill it.
Then how are they gonna solve the problem? If human is at that position, they will mostly do the same thing. During that kind of situation, someone must make the sacrifice, choose to not let anyone's hand get blood may not be evil but it's silly and will cause the worst result. The Mursaat didn't sacrifice themselves, they are not noble, but we still cannot say it's evil, since we humans would pretty much pick on other races, too when we met it.

Like Churchill also sacrificed hundreds of innocent people in Coventry when they knew and could settle defense against Germany's bombing to avoid so much death, only to make sure Hitler won't know they got the secret code.

Funnily enough, some people are willing to knowingly sacrifice their lives for the good of their fellows. It's where the Kurzick juggernaughts came from (although admittedly they're going into a different life rather than ending it entirely). It may well explain why the mursaat are the way they are, if the more altruistic members of their race have self-culled themselves through volunteering themselves for sacrifice - assuming that the mursaat even are acceptable sacrifices for the bloodstone.

Nevertheless, going through with forced sacrifices is an evil thing to do. Going back to my example of the group of people starving in the mountains - without one person making the sacrifice, everyone's going to die unless they are rescued first. Does that give any one person, or even the group as a whole, the right to decide that a particular individual will be the victim without their consent? No. It should be a volunteer, or a group decision that it's necessary followed by drawing lots to decide on who.

So, let's play a game of "What Would I Do If I Was Optimus Caliph." Let's assume that there is no viable way to keep the Door closed other than sacrificing the Chosen (rather than it simply being a convenient way to kill two birds with one stone), or any evidence of a reasonable way for the world to survive the Door opening.

First, I would try to save all of the human nations if reasonably practical. This is not out of altruism, but out of simple mathematics - the more Chosen saved from the charr, the more potential sacrifices.

Second, and this is a big one, even if it hasn't been raised before in this discussion: I wouldn't kill Gisinger, Bryen, Jaemes and Rebekah on the basis that they are "unworthy" to see me - that's a pretty narcissistic, self-conceited, and basically evil reason to kill someone. It's been theorised that the real reason is because the mursaat judged that those four wouldn't go along with their plans, but that's also pretty callous behaviour.

Instead, I'd reveal to them that there is another enemy, and if I knew it, that there was a link between my enemy and the enemy I just helped them against. The price for my aid would be Krytan support against the foe, with the test of the Chosen administered to determine those who had the potential to fight the foe. The Chosen selected would, ultimately, be brought to the Door, informed of the truth, and given the choice - those who volunteered would be entered into a roll of honour, while the rest would be trained as mages or soldiers and enlisted into the defenses of the Door. If brought to a proper understanding of the stakes involved, I would personally be surprised if there are not a significant number of volunteers, and the army formed from the rest can replace the jades and other defenses that might otherwise have been powered from their souls. Especially if they're kept close enough to the Door so that if the initial uptake of volunteers is insufficient to keep it closed, they can have the opportunity to change their minds if it does start to open.

Meanwhile, I'd be doing my best to find another means of keeping the door closed. If I knew of her, I might even send a band of trusted Chosen to the Crystal Desert to Ascend and ask Glint for a better option... and I wouldn't be leaving a totalitarian and oppressive government in charge of Kryta. From what we know of him, Saul seemed to be a pretty decent sort, and since I haven't gone and done something that forced me to 'disappear' him to ensure his silence, he'd probably do a decent job.

On the whole, your argument seems to be resting on two pillars. There's the "but they saved people" one - to which I say, they did so only because it was convenient for their own goals, not because they valued human life (if they did, I would expect Kryta to have been a more egalitarian nation rather than most of the population being pushed into poverty).

The second is that the sacrifices were necessary for the greater good. This, on its own, might have some weight, but it is undermined by the casual cruelty shown by the mursaat in the killing of most of Saul's followers at Demetra, the oppression of Kryta, and the continued sacrifices years after the Door had been sealed and thus the need for them had passed. This behaviour flips the mursaat (or at least their leadership) over from being guardians of the world reluctantly doing what is necessary for the world's safety, to a group of cruel overlords and casual murderers that happen to be guarding a portal that's at least as dangerous to them as it is to anybody else.

You are saying that making forced sacrifice thing is evil, but isn't "save people from the edge of destruction" a good action? Since you are saying that their "evil action" under their netural goal make them evil, why didn't the "good action" make them good? Instead you are keep saying they saved humans for their own goals, then they killed the chosen for the same reason. Isn't it double standard and you are using it for a while?


Ok, as for your plan, you really think it will work? Just look at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, how many people are willing to face not certain death, but high level radiation when another huge disater can happen? Only 50 people went into the deepest place to repair it willingly. Less than 500 people were helping outside of the high radiation area, and these guys are under the order the Japanese government(Same for most of the sacrifice in Chernobyl). The Mursaat do not have such right to command the humans unless they do what they did in the actual story. Also the humans almost never saw the Titans and the door is far away from their home, all they got is Mursaat and Glint's words, many people will think: why should they do it? That's the human nature, even when the big disaster came, many of them still put themselves first.


as for the last point, I'm not saying kill Saul's followers good action but many of the "good" forces did such thing. Like in the American Civil War, general Sherman's actions in the South is pretty cruel but we cannot simply say he or his government is evil. Overall the Mursaat still saved more than they killed. That's why I judge them as overall a neutral race.

I always believed that the Mursaat thought the humans to be beneath them, due to their superiority in almost any way. So they used humans to their advantages similarly to how we use animals to our advantage. (labor, food, testing etc.) In this case, they used humans as live sacrifices to keep themselves alive. Sure, they could have come up with a compromise in which humans willingly sacrificed themselves, but then the humans probably would have asked the same of the Mursaat. So they tricked humans into powering the batteries simply because it was easier.

To a human, this may seem evil, but to the Mursaat, they were just using lesser intelligent species to their advantage to survive. You have to keep things in perspective: to a person, a KFC is a place for delicious meals; to a chicken, a KFC is the gates of hell themselves.

I agree most of your points, just unlike the Mursaat saved humans, other animals can live just fine, actually far better without humans.

Just as the ends don't justify the means, the means don't justify the ends. The sacrifices were an evil act committed towards neutral or even good ends - but that doesn't excuse it. The "rescue" of Kryta was what would otherwise be a good act committed towards evil ends - to enslave most of the population and murder some of it. Their treatment of Kryta after they had it - pushing most of the population into illiterate poverty (the line in the Prophecies Manuscripts about access to books being a "special privilige" of White Mantle membership is one of the most chilling I've read) shows that the intervention was not an altruistic act intended for the good of the people rescued, but a means of conquest - a neutral act at best.

So, basically, what you claim is a good act ISN'T. After all, if the mursaat had met the charr just north of Kryta and fought them for the privilige of whether the mursaat would get to conquer Kryta or whether the charr could destroy it, then the morality here would be clear - it's just that the mursaat waited until Kryta had been attacked before they initiated their act of conquest disguised as rescue... ironically enough, since the above scenario would probably have resulted in less damage to Kryta overall.

If you've played Star Control 2, it's akin to the fighting between the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za (who want to enslave the galaxy) and the Kohr-Ah (who want to exterminate all other sapient life). Now, enslavement is certainly a lesser evil than genocide, but that the Kzer-Za were fighting the Kohr-Ah didn't make them any better than the enslavers they were.

Regarding the willingness to sacrifice - I'd be curious whether in the case of the reactor it's a question of having volunteers, or one of how many people were actually wanted and needed in there. But there's a reason my hypothetical involved bringing the Chosen there before asking for volunteers - drafting an army would be relatively simple than asking for sacrifices, and letting them see just what's at stake (even if this involves allowing a titan or two through when the seals weaken) would make it much easier to get sacrifices. Especially given the stakes - if it's clearly a case of "sacrifice or EVERYBODY dies" you're going to have people who are willing to lay down their lives for the good of their family or friends back home. And we're still assuming that the sacrifices were actually necessary instead of simply convenient.

Meanwhile, the killing of Saul's followers is reprehensible basically because it's pointless. If they truly died because they were deemed unworthy it's hubris, otherwise their deaths served no purpose that disappearing them (as with Saul) wouldn't. Now, I don't know what General Sherman got up to, since I'm not an American and thus my history studies have been concentrated elsewhere, but I'd consider casual killing without good reason to be pretty much the epitome of evil. In times of war people have more reason (or at least think they do) to kill, but the mursaat weren't at war with Saul's followers.

I think the big difference between us is that you're concentrating on the results while I'm concentrating on the intent. Yes, the mursaat intervention may have saved more people than it killed (we don't actually know that Kryta would have fallen without the intervention - it was a different situation, and there's good reason to believe the charr army in Kryta may have simply been to keep Kryta's military from intervening in Ascalon and Orr, which were the real targets of the charr and Abaddon respectively) but there is no evidence that the mursaat saw people as being worth saving except as resources to be exploited and expended. Intent matters. An act that is done purely for your own good that just happens to have positive consequences for others is not a good act. It's at best a neutral one, that just happened to benefit someone else.

If I sold a bottle of water to someone who was dying of thirst at an exorbitant price, then technically I've saved a life, but is this a good act? No. A good person would offer the water for free. Most neutral people would too, if they were not at risk of dying of thirst themselves, or at least sell it it at a fair price. Overcharging because of the buyer's desperation is an act of opportunism that borders on evil.

At the risk of Godwining the thread, there were Nazi scientists that committed horrifying experiments on human subjects during World War 2. Some of those, I believe, did lead to medical discoveries that have saved lives since, possibly more than were lost or ruined during the experiments - in fact, since the experiments were mostly carried out on Jews who were probably slated for death anyway, arguably the experiments cost no lives at all. Still, I don't think anyone is going to argue that the people who carried out those experiments should be commended.

Why isn't it a rescue good? If you say the ends, then their ends is to stop the Titan's release, that's their final ends, you can cut one piece off to say the "enslavement".

Sure, White Mantle got special privilege because they are the leading rank. It got nothing to do with enslave the people, other than the sacrifice, did they force people to do work all the day for them or the Mursaat? No. If you say enslavement you have to give more evidence. Pushing most of the people into illiterate poverty? They only ruled for 2 years, how did they do that? It's amazing.

Again, the Mursaat didn't know about the invasion until they met Saul. They only showed up after he called them. They lived in a hidden kingdom of the jungle. That's far from the charr.

As for sacrifice, I'm safe to say human's nature won't let many people to die under the words of some "aliens". They will tell the Mursaat to die, or say I will run to someplace if the titan came. Yeah we know how bad the titans are, but they never met it so it's very hard to make them realize how terrible it would be.

I also think their action toward Saul's friends is wrong.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Mursaat's is overall neutral, a little bit darker and harsher than the humans, they don't care too much about human lives, just like humans don't care about other living's lives as much as humans'. They did good and bad actions but overall they saved more than killed.

If I sold a bottle of water to someone who was dying of thirst at an exorbitant price because without this much money, someone's gonna go kill both of us, is that evil?

Eight years, actually, until the mursaat truly lost control of Kryta. There was just a lot fewer of them after the first two - but the effects are also visible after the first two.

It comes down to a seperation of intent and results. None of the actions of the mursaat were intended to aid anyone but the mursaat, any such results were purely incidental. Therefor, they are not good acts, and do not balance the evil acts they did commit.

Let's say you have two scientists. One is attempting to find a cure for world hunger purely through his own funding and time... but in the process, accidentally creates and releases a horrible disease into the populace. Is he evil? No. His intent was good, he just made a serious mistake in the process. Meanwhile, his counterpart WAS working on producing a deadly bioweapon, but ends up stumbling on a solution for world hunger. This does not make the counterpart good, he simply came across a happy argument.

And I think this is basically as far as this discussion can go. For the reason above, none of the mursaat's known actions can really be classified as good (since they're all for their own benefit and not for the benefit of others), and thus they don't balance the evil acts we know they've done. Some of those acts could possibly be excused through necessity, but others cannot (not every soul reaped went to the door, nor was every person killed by the mursaat killed in battle or on a bloodstone). The evidence is overall damning.

During Prophecies it's just 2 years.

Their goal is overall the same, save themselves is not evil, so their good actions do balance their evil action.

Well again their goal is to save themselves and maybe care a little about the others. This is not evil, even good. It does not match the example you gave.

Also I want to ask, is saving humanity good? It is, so why is saving the Mursaat themselves turned to be not good? Because the actions? They made good and evil actions, overall still saved more.

You would have had a point if they'd sacrificed themselves.
Now it's just plain evil to kidnap and sacrifice others to further your own goals, no matter what these goals are. That people are actually discussing that sacrificing the lives of others, without even asking them to volunteer or something, could in any way be seen as 'good' is quite unbelievable.

If you want to save the world, sacrifice yourself.

Well played, ArenaNet. Well played.

They might have actually been doing that before Saul found them, we just don't know. The door has been closed for a long time before the Mursaat started sacrificing Krytans. Anyway the Mursaat could say the same to humans as well, it's not only the Mursaat at stake they're the only ones who actually know about it.

Besides the Mursaat are really paranoid people, I can understand why they were taking people without telling them. I wouldn't tell them either if I could help it, nobody would volunteer and even if a few did I would think it wouldn't be enough to keep the door closed.

Anyway the Mursaat actually provide the technology to keep the door closed and there are millions of people in Tyria, what's a few less? For all we know the Mursaat could be infertile or something. Anyway how can you blame the Mursaat for killing humans when, in Prophecies, we killed hundreds of Charr. I'm sure that if we were in the Mursaat's position we wouldn't mind killing a few hundred Charr to save the world.

Also it's not like human's are the greatest race on the planet. What about Vizier Khilbron who wiped out an entire city because he worshiped Abaddon, Shiro who transformed hundreds of people into Afflicted, Varesh Ossa who tried to bring about Nightfall? Then again they were touched by Abaddon.

But then there's Verata who killed people just to further his experiments, War Minister Wona who wanted to start a war with the Tengu just rich, Emperor Usoku who has prosecuted all non-humans in Cantha and removed anyone who disagreed with him.

And of course there's the groups like the Crimson Skull who terrorize Shing Jea Island, the Ministries who do nothing but push paper and accept bribes and the Am Fah and the Jade Brotherhood who not only attack travelers but attack each other as well.

Besides the Mursaat barely know of us or our culture and we know practically nothing about them. After all we don't know if the Mursaat we encountered are really representatives of their whole race? After all they are invisible. There could be untold thousands out there who didn't agree.

Don't you think it's a bit soon to judge?