After finding out that the Forgotten Shield didn't properly decrease damage I took during farming, I posted it here a little over a year ago. I also posted it on the bug report page of the wiki but got no reply and thought not much more of it.
Now, however, with the recent introduction of the official guild wars support forum, I figured I might as well repost it there.
After some suspicion and help from a couple of friendly Germans from guildwiki.de we actually uncovered a much larger issue:
All weapon armor bonuses that are not inscriptions are treated as skill armor boosts, and therefore capped at +25 armor if used in conjunction with armor boosting skills.
What this means is that when you use a shield that has an inherent mod that gives you +10 armor vs fire and you stand in a Ward against Elements (+24 armor vs elemental damage), you only get +25 armor vs fire, not +34. If you use a skill that gives you +25 or more armor by itself, then the weapon mod doesn't do anything at all!
The only armor boosts from weapons not included in the 25 armor cap are base armor from shields and armor bonuses from inscriptions (real inscriptions, not inherent mods that can be replicated with inscriptions).
Yes, even regular armor mods like 'of Defense' and 'of Shelter' are included in the armor stacking cap of 25 with skill armor boosts.
Keep this in mind the next time you buy oldschool shields with armor mods to use in PvP (like Echovalds etc)!!
Bug? Important notice about armor stacking (especially for PvP'ers)
Dzjudz
Dzjudz
6 years 
.
You can see how it's important in PvP with skills like Resilient Weapon which give +24 armor. Any non-inscription armor bonus would only provide 1 additional armor...
.You can see how it's important in PvP with skills like Resilient Weapon which give +24 armor. Any non-inscription armor bonus would only provide 1 additional armor...
Lishy
So does this effect modern greens as well? Like endgame EoTN shields?
Dzjudz
Obviously we haven't tested all weapons in the game, but all tests seem to indicate the only exception are real inscriptions. But please feel free to test. If you find your weapon works correctly, please post your methods and calculations so we can confirm. Thanks.
Edit: of course, eotn shields come with inscription slots, so they should work correctly. And eotn endgame green shields (droknar's shields) don't have inherent armor mods so they aren't affected.
Edit: of course, eotn shields come with inscription slots, so they should work correctly. And eotn endgame green shields (droknar's shields) don't have inherent armor mods so they aren't affected.
Reformed
Armor cap was implemented in 2007. Stacking bonuses on the PvE side probably went unnoticed because things like IAU completely ignore it, ele wards are unusual and SY! will always take priority anyways.
Lanier
So does that mean that if I use Stand your ground (+24 armor) and I wear centurion's insignias, the insignias will only give me +1 extra armor?
If so, that is complete and utter crap.
Since the armor limit is capped at 25, do skills that lower armor affect this cap? For example, if I am under the effects of aggressive refrain (thus lowering my armor from 80 to 60), will stand your ground raise my armor back up to 84 and then the centurions insignias up to 94 armor?
If so, that is complete and utter crap.
Since the armor limit is capped at 25, do skills that lower armor affect this cap? For example, if I am under the effects of aggressive refrain (thus lowering my armor from 80 to 60), will stand your ground raise my armor back up to 84 and then the centurions insignias up to 94 armor?
Premium Unleaded
Insignia bonuses function correctly according to their tests.
Siver
=(
Did u by chance check if the Derv Mysticism armor bonus stack above this?
just wondering
Did u by chance check if the Derv Mysticism armor bonus stack above this?
just wondering
Iuris
Hmmm. I though the limitations only applied to skills...
We really could use some more info, or at least a re-confirmation from the above. After all, armor comes from:
-armor
-insignia
-shield
-shield mod
-weapon mod
-consumables
-skills
-(anything I missed)
So far, I was under the impression that consumables were supposed to stack up too... I may well have wasted some in this case.
We really could use some more info, or at least a re-confirmation from the above. After all, armor comes from:
-armor
-insignia
-shield
-shield mod
-weapon mod
-consumables
-skills
-(anything I missed)
So far, I was under the impression that consumables were supposed to stack up too... I may well have wasted some in this case.
Lordkrall
Who says its a bug? Sounds more like a feature to me. I mean, how fun would PvP be if people were able to be more or less completly immune to all damage?
urania
so having condition insignias (+15 armor whenever suffering from a condition) and a full armor bonus from a shield (+16 armor) along with a +10 vs different damage type and s +7 vs physical/ele damage on a weapon dont amount for more than +25 armor in total either?
Thock
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Originally Posted by urania
so having condition insignias (+15 armor whenever suffering from a condition) and a full armor bonus from a shield (+16 armor) along with a +10 vs different damage type and s +7 vs physical/ele damage on a weapon dont amount for more than +25 armor in total either?
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Shields: Inherent, non inscribable bonuses to armor are not stacking. Inscriptions and base armor of the shield are. so inscribable shields are fine.
Weapon Mods: Not stacking and are added in with 25 armor bonus.
Armor Inscriptions: Didnt see any posts about armor inscriptions like disciples insignia you mentioned being tested.
EDIT: Missed a post:
Originally posted by Redeemer on the support forums:
"At least the ghost forge insignia were working. If even the insignia weren’t working, it would have been absolutely ridiculous. The only things that do not count as skills are:
* Shield base armor (and similar things on pre-order items)
* Inscriptions
* Armor
* Insignia
Well, I will talk to aRTy if the tests with the pre-searing crafter sword were under the effects of the Vanguard effect."
so it would seem armor insignias are working correctly and are not counted as skills.
AndrewSX
^urania:Add in the count armor given for skills/attributes(myst.) for have a complete list....and is still capped at 25 (seems).
Wondering if this will be adressed (mostly for pvp) or cause went ingnored for years is just how game works.
P.S: thus means that in the majority of cases in pvp switching to shield set, expecially low req ones, even with +10 vs dmg mod will give +1 armor overall?
Kinda disappointing for everyone who switched weapon/shield set all the time in pvp for last years....
Wondering if this will be adressed (mostly for pvp) or cause went ingnored for years is just how game works.
P.S: thus means that in the majority of cases in pvp switching to shield set, expecially low req ones, even with +10 vs dmg mod will give +1 armor overall?
Kinda disappointing for everyone who switched weapon/shield set all the time in pvp for last years....
Thock
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AndrewSX
P.S: thus means that in the majority of cases in pvp switching to shield set, expecially low req ones, even with +10 vs dmg mod will give +1 armor overall?
Kinda disappointing for everyone who switched weapon/shield set all the time in pvp for last years.... |
AndrewSX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thock
If the shield is inscribable you get the full +10 bonus, if it is inherent you do not.
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But this still means......that all those VERY valuable oldschool shield with inerenth +10 armor....are affected?
Some people won't like this.
Coast
test it out urselves before believing them imo, its so easy to test(scrimmage) and use like lighting orb or w/e.
kedde
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Reformed
Armor cap was implemented in 2007. Stacking bonuses on the PvE side probably went unnoticed because things like IAU completely ignore it, ele wards are unusual and SY! will always take priority anyways.
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Dzjudz
Sorry guys I went to bed right after posting this thread, so I'll answer some questions now.
Yeah, seeing the high-end market in oldschool items with armor mods, that should drop a bit I think. Unless you're just going for collector items, using the items actually places you at a disadvantage. See the q7 Jug for sale at the moment for example (sorry leet noobified, just posting an example).
No. It seems armor is calculated from the following sources:
- Base armor (what you're wearing)
- Insignia
- Mysticism (if applicable)
- Shield base armor
- Inscriptions
- All the rest (non-inscription weapon mods and skills)
The last category, 'all the rest' suffers from the 25 armor cap.
Now I don't think we have tested consumables that give armor bonuses yet (e.g. War Supplies and Armor of Salvation). You can't use consumables in a scrimmage though, so I have to think where we can properly test those.
Like above, it seems we still need to test consumables. The other sources of armor have been tested.
It's a bug either way, because inscriptions work outside the cap, while inherent mods, even those that can be replicated with inscriptions, are capped. So either inscriptions are bugged and should be capped, or the rest is bugged and should not be capped.
Yes we tested in scrimmage, all with sound calculations, thanks. But additional testing is always welcome!
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I know of a couple ppl who once they see this will be pretty upset their collections of inheirent "vs" shields don't actually work correctly....lol....wonder if it'll lower prices?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lanier
So does that mean that if I use Stand your ground (+24 armor) and I wear centurion's insignias, the insignias will only give me +1 extra armor?
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- Base armor (what you're wearing)
- Insignia
- Mysticism (if applicable)
- Shield base armor
- Inscriptions
- All the rest (non-inscription weapon mods and skills)
The last category, 'all the rest' suffers from the 25 armor cap.
Now I don't think we have tested consumables that give armor bonuses yet (e.g. War Supplies and Armor of Salvation). You can't use consumables in a scrimmage though, so I have to think where we can properly test those.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iuris
Hmmm. I though the limitations only applied to skills...
We really could use some more info, or at least a re-confirmation from the above. After all, armor comes from: -armor -insignia -shield -shield mod -weapon mod -consumables -skills -(anything I missed) So far, I was under the impression that consumables were supposed to stack up too... I may well have wasted some in this case. |
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Originally Posted by Lordkrall
Who says its a bug? Sounds more like a feature to me. I mean, how fun would PvP be if people were able to be more or less completly immune to all damage?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Coast
test it out urselves before believing them imo, its so easy to test(scrimmage) and use like lighting orb or w/e.
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Coast
Yes, just tested it and seems ur correct(but i wanted to test it myself to make sure it wasn't just a conspirancy.
About the +5al sets: u still should use them anyway as its not like u get resilient 100% of the match, so u'll still mitigate a lot of accumelative dmg with just wearing those def mods on ur weaps.
About the +5al sets: u still should use them anyway as its not like u get resilient 100% of the match, so u'll still mitigate a lot of accumelative dmg with just wearing those def mods on ur weaps.
Sk8tborderx
I really doubt it will affect prices at all, remember when people charged a lot more for weapons with 10/10 sundering? The vast majority of the players out there don't know/care what is truly more effective.
Dzjudz
Some news on consumables.
It seems Armors of Salvation stack properly, but War Supplies don't (they are included in the 25 armor cap). I've seen a report that Drake Kabob doesn't work at all, but I haven't verified that myself.
EDIT: Armors of Salvation do not stack properly after all; like War Supplies they are included in the 25 armor cap.
In other news, Cracked Armor is bugged as well...
It seems Armors of Salvation stack properly, but War Supplies don't (they are included in the 25 armor cap). I've seen a report that Drake Kabob doesn't work at all, but I haven't verified that myself.
EDIT: Armors of Salvation do not stack properly after all; like War Supplies they are included in the 25 armor cap.
In other news, Cracked Armor is bugged as well...
Brian the Gladiator
This is a very large oversight. Frankly, the armor cap idea is severely flawed to begin with. Instead of capping the amount of armor you can have, they should have just decreased the ability to stack it - a.k.a. nerfed skills that grant additional armor. The armor cap is equivalent to a damage cap (limit the amount of additional damage somebody can do with an attack)... It's just a stupid idea that confuses players and leaves a bunch of holes where A-Net can misfire on the execution of such an idea... which we observe to be exactly what happened.
A-Net, stop doing stupid shit and start listening to the PvPers that are on the test crew. They are smarter than you!
Firstly, A-Net seams to believe there is a disconnect between what the players of their game want and what is profitable for their company. Since when did producing goods and services that consumers want and need become unprofitable?
Secondly, since when has A-Net known what the players want and need more-so THAN THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES! If A-Net just listened to the test crew (very capable representatives of the GW community), the game would be much more enjoyable for the most amount of people. A-Net is just acting irrationally... no ifs ands or buts about it.
*note that I am not a member of the test crew nor am I affiliated with them - just a supporter of their efforts to make this game great.
A-Net, stop doing stupid shit and start listening to the PvPers that are on the test crew. They are smarter than you!
Firstly, A-Net seams to believe there is a disconnect between what the players of their game want and what is profitable for their company. Since when did producing goods and services that consumers want and need become unprofitable?
Secondly, since when has A-Net known what the players want and need more-so THAN THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES! If A-Net just listened to the test crew (very capable representatives of the GW community), the game would be much more enjoyable for the most amount of people. A-Net is just acting irrationally... no ifs ands or buts about it.
*note that I am not a member of the test crew nor am I affiliated with them - just a supporter of their efforts to make this game great.
floor
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Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
This is a very large oversight. Frankly, the armor cap idea is severely flawed to begin with. Instead of capping the amount of armor you can have, they should have just decreased the ability to stack it - a.k.a. nerfed skills that grant additional armor. The armor cap is equivalent to a damage cap (limit the amount of additional damage somebody can do with an attack)... It's just a stupid idea that confuses players and leaves a bunch of holes where A-Net can misfire on the execution of such an idea... which we observe to be exactly what happened.
A-Net, stop doing stupid shit and start listening to the PvPers that are on the test crew. They are smarter than you! Firstly, A-Net seams to believe there is a disconnect between what the players of their game want and what is profitable for their company. Since when did producing goods and services that consumers want and need become unprofitable? Secondly, since when has A-Net known what the players want and need more-so THAN THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES! If A-Net just listened to the test crew (very capable representatives of the GW community), the game would be much more enjoyable for the most amount of people. A-Net is just acting irrationally... no ifs ands or buts about it. *note that I am not a member of the test crew nor am I affiliated with them - just a supporter of their efforts to make this game great. |
Reformed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
Instead of capping the amount of armor you can have, they should have just decreased the ability to stack it - a.k.a. nerfed skills that grant additional armor.
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cthulhu reborn
They shouldn't listen to PvP'ers right away. Too many are a bunch of ragers that complain every time they lose ^^
Trolling aside, I do think it's rather a bitter pill for people who invested in oldskool weapons and shields only to find out they are worse than the new inscribable ones. Oh the irony! ....I would think this is something they want to fix.
Trolling aside, I do think it's rather a bitter pill for people who invested in oldskool weapons and shields only to find out they are worse than the new inscribable ones. Oh the irony! ....I would think this is something they want to fix.
Carboplatin
so those +10vs plants/dwarves/orges/dragons are pretty much pointless if you are using IAU.
That could free up alot of inv spaces!
That could free up alot of inv spaces!
Reformed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carboplatin
so those +10vs plants/dwarves/orges/dragons are pretty much pointless if you are using IAU.
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Killed u man
IAU already bypasses the armor cap, so with this glitch in mind, it shouldn't affect the shields. However, as additional testing with cracked armor and such pointed out, the intire system is .
Right now, there isn't any point making claims regarding armor stacking outside of the ones you've personally tested. Usually, I'm the the guy to talk to when talking GW mechanics (I spend waaaay to much time playing GW), yet I'm completely baffled by this oversight.
Though armor stacking should never have gotten nerfed the way it did anyways. For those not aware, the reason why they nerfed armor stacking was because of paragons after NF release. When stacking shields on top of SYG and "Watch Yourselves", intire teams (in PvP) were taking less than 40% of the original damage. There also were other very broken mechanics (7 Seconds of "Incomming!" which made party members take 50% less damage directly, the energy engine for Monks, ...), but the point is that armor stacking was never nerfed to increase the "general balance" of the game, rather than an indirect nerf to Paragons. Paragons... which ironically 4 years later got nerfed out of all their utility and party defence making the initial "armor stacking nerf" another one of the many typical Anet "double nerfs". -Where they completely destroy 2 aspects of a certain builds whereas 1 would've been enough, and most of the time both nerfs don't even affect the root of the problem-
Right now, there isn't any point making claims regarding armor stacking outside of the ones you've personally tested. Usually, I'm the the guy to talk to when talking GW mechanics (I spend waaaay to much time playing GW), yet I'm completely baffled by this oversight.
Though armor stacking should never have gotten nerfed the way it did anyways. For those not aware, the reason why they nerfed armor stacking was because of paragons after NF release. When stacking shields on top of SYG and "Watch Yourselves", intire teams (in PvP) were taking less than 40% of the original damage. There also were other very broken mechanics (7 Seconds of "Incomming!" which made party members take 50% less damage directly, the energy engine for Monks, ...), but the point is that armor stacking was never nerfed to increase the "general balance" of the game, rather than an indirect nerf to Paragons. Paragons... which ironically 4 years later got nerfed out of all their utility and party defence making the initial "armor stacking nerf" another one of the many typical Anet "double nerfs". -Where they completely destroy 2 aspects of a certain builds whereas 1 would've been enough, and most of the time both nerfs don't even affect the root of the problem-
Dzjudz
IAU not only bypasses the armor cap, it also bypasses cracked armor (and armor penetration!). It's really bugged. Furthermore, high enough armor boosts actually make you immune to cracked armor!
Urcscumug
IAU clearly needs to be nerfed! 
Joking, but seriously, we've just discovered this but ANet must've known about it for quite a while. And since they haven't done anything about it so far, is there any reason to believe they will, now that it's been found by the general public?
And let's say they did, are you not the least bit afraid of the "fixes" they might choose? If you wake up tomorrow and IAU no longer gives any armor bonus -- problem solved right?
Joking, but seriously, we've just discovered this but ANet must've known about it for quite a while. And since they haven't done anything about it so far, is there any reason to believe they will, now that it's been found by the general public?
And let's say they did, are you not the least bit afraid of the "fixes" they might choose? If you wake up tomorrow and IAU no longer gives any armor bonus -- problem solved right?
Reformed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Urcscumug
And let's say they did, are you not the least bit afraid of the "fixes" they might choose?
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Swingline
shotty programming is all i got to say. very lazy on anets part.
FoxBat
With Watch Yourself and Stand Your Ground nerfed to crap in PvP, I don't think the armor cap serves any purpose anymore. Use getting rid of it as an excuse to nerf SY!, since that skill's ridiculous bonus was a way of circumventing the cap in the first place.
In the meantime, flaggers ought to pay more attention to their fortitude spears when defending the base. In other situations resilient weapon isn't reliable enough, or could just as easily be weapon of warding.
In the meantime, flaggers ought to pay more attention to their fortitude spears when defending the base. In other situations resilient weapon isn't reliable enough, or could just as easily be weapon of warding.
Curo
I didn't know that armor was even capped at all, wow!
To me, this whole thing seems very counter-intuitive. Many recent updates have gone to great lengths to remove counter-intuitivity from the game (I think I just made up a word). Therefore I can only see A-net wanting to fix this.
I'd like to clearly know what this armour cap applies to and how it works, from an in-game source, rather than having to read a fansite forum. Counter-intuitive...
And all this about IAU and Cracked Armor...I'm not going to even get into that! PvE'rs, PvP'rs, and traders alike all need something to base their gameplay off of. So, we must have a standardized and bugless armour system.
Can you imagine, for instance, if health de/regeneration was not shown in "pips", and we unknowingly tried to stack de/regen up to 20 or higher? Similar thought process here. You wouldn't stand for that, so you shouldn't stand for this!
To me, this whole thing seems very counter-intuitive. Many recent updates have gone to great lengths to remove counter-intuitivity from the game (I think I just made up a word). Therefore I can only see A-net wanting to fix this.
I'd like to clearly know what this armour cap applies to and how it works, from an in-game source, rather than having to read a fansite forum. Counter-intuitive...
And all this about IAU and Cracked Armor...I'm not going to even get into that! PvE'rs, PvP'rs, and traders alike all need something to base their gameplay off of. So, we must have a standardized and bugless armour system.
Can you imagine, for instance, if health de/regeneration was not shown in "pips", and we unknowingly tried to stack de/regen up to 20 or higher? Similar thought process here. You wouldn't stand for that, so you shouldn't stand for this!
Dzjudz
Yeah, we found that IAU not only stacks to above the 25 armor cap, but it actually functions outside all armor parameters. It bypasses the armor cap, it bypasses cracked armor, and it bypasses armor penetration.
- You always get the 24 armor from IAU, there's no way it can be lowered.
I wrote before that Armor of Earth makes you immune to Cracked Armor. This was not entirely correct. After a lot more testing, we figured out that:
- If you use a skill or combination of skills and effects that gives you +46 or more armor, Cracked Armor plainly does not function on you any more.
This means that if you use a skill that gives you just below 46 or just above 45 armor depending on the breakpoints (for example 8 vs 9 earth magic for Armor of Earth), you win or lose more than 20 armor if you are affected by Cracked Armor.
- You always get the 24 armor from IAU, there's no way it can be lowered.
I wrote before that Armor of Earth makes you immune to Cracked Armor. This was not entirely correct. After a lot more testing, we figured out that:
- If you use a skill or combination of skills and effects that gives you +46 or more armor, Cracked Armor plainly does not function on you any more.
This means that if you use a skill that gives you just below 46 or just above 45 armor depending on the breakpoints (for example 8 vs 9 earth magic for Armor of Earth), you win or lose more than 20 armor if you are affected by Cracked Armor.
Chthon
Wow, what a mess.
It seems to me that the best solution is probably just to remove the armor cap.
It seems to me that the best solution is probably just to remove the armor cap.
Urcscumug
@Curo: In keeping with your ideas for clarification, I wish they simply showed the current AL as a small number next to the corresponding body slot in the inventory window. And it should be updated in real time, just like attribute rank is when you use skills that affect it, like hp and energy regen and degen etc. Then bugs such as this would become much more obvious. (Not to mention that it would eliminate the need to test AL through indirect means.)
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Urcscumug
@Curo: In keeping with your ideas for clarification, I wish they simply showed the current AL as a small number next to the corresponding body slot in the inventory window. And it should be updated in real time, just like attribute rank is when you use skills that affect it, like hp and energy regen and degen etc. Then bugs such as this would become much more obvious. (Not to mention that it would eliminate the need to test AL through indirect means.)
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They had something like that in D2. Everyone called it the LCS, or "Lying Character Screen," because it was hopelessly inaccurate.
Urcscumug
Well ok, I guess I should add it should be accurate. Just having false numbers won't help much.
Silmar Alech
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Originally Posted by Urcscumug
I wish they simply showed the current AL as a small number next to the corresponding body slot in the inventory window.
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And even this is never correct in combat, since you can have insignia that modify the AL during your actions - if you are above or under 80/60/50/20 life, or due to the number of your minions, spirits, skills recharging etc...
If you are hit simultanously from different damage types, different AL apply at the same time.
If you want a correct AL display, it has to be displayed next to every number that tells the amounts of damage you take during combat, which would be somewhat confusing.