Maybe now causal PvP won't be a Dervish festival. I feel like an idiot being the only one with another class in Alliance Battles...lol
Dervish Shadow Step, Dervish Shards, Dervish, Derv Derv ahhhhhh.
Update - Thursday, July 21, 2011
Leohan
tummlykins
Quote:
| Adjusted the timing and AI for Siege Turtles in "Fort Aspenwood." |
A turtle that is standing near/in/on a gate when it is repaired will start walking back and forth (it has never done this before) to avoid getting stalled on that gate. Ironically this just ends up stoppng it from firing on the gate and thus the gate stays up (because the warriors won't kill the eles). If the turtle is aggroed on the location of a gate after it's been broken, it will still often stall on that gate (same old problem).
I think there are some slight changes to it's aggro when it comes to melee (turtle aggro and whether or not it moves forward has always been retarded) and I think it might be less likely to stall on close opponents. It still stalls just as easily and as often on anything further away which has always been the problem, so it's a move in the right direction but nothing truly meaningful for Luxon players.
Swingline
my cries have been heard 
ruk1a
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Originally Posted by drkn
Mesmer
Fevered Dreams (PvP): removed application of Dazed. |
Way to not fix the actual problem, as always ANet *golf clap*.
Mordiego
Cross-dressed pyjamas emo still has higher armor that Warrior. How silly is that?
lemming
Just a reminder: This is a discussion thread for yesterday's update. Stay on topic.
makosi
It's a step in the right direction to fix the FA bugs and I'm pleased about it. However, there's still the problem of leech bots that needs to be properly addressed.
Infectious
Way to "fix" the problem with the triple dervish + frag mes.
Quickly losing faith in the live teams ability to see problems and rectify them.
Quickly losing faith in the live teams ability to see problems and rectify them.
BlackSephir
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Adjusted the locations for Luxon Longbows in "The Jade Quarry." Adjusted the timing and AI for jade carriers in "The Jade Quarry." Adjusted the timing and AI for Siege Turtles in "Fort Aspenwood." When used by Siege Turtles in "Fort Aspenwood," Siege Turtle Attack now ignores collision. NPCs and creatures in "Fort Aspenwood" now use the PvP versions of their respective skills. |
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Hence why they should be split from PvP like ritualist spirits.
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And really, shadowsteps don't add all that much in PvE so it wouldn't really be worth bringing them anyway.
deluxe
Someone help me out here: Did they actually buff Mind Wrack with another functionality?
Xenomortis
No? They removed the damage it did whenever it caused energy loss.
deluxe
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
No? They removed the damage it did whenever it caused energy loss.
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Lol I just read the pve version, since when has mind wrack been like that???
makosi
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Originally Posted by deluxe
Oh, right I thought it always ended when you swapped to your low set like wither/malaise.
Lol I just read the pve version, since when has mind wrack been like that??? |
AndrewSX
FD nerf was expected, fastest/easiest(most lazy? lol) way to cut the triple derv train in high pvp. Competitive fixes are good anyway, but was surprised by shadow walk shorting.
I only wonder....how long will Anet continue nerfing 2 derv skills at month?
Just fix all toghether if they have actually understood what to hit (but latest updates are steps in right direction i think).
I only wonder....how long will Anet continue nerfing 2 derv skills at month?
Just fix all toghether if they have actually understood what to hit (but latest updates are steps in right direction i think).
Xsiriss
What's annoying about GW updates/fixes is that even after years of trying and having the community tell them stuff, they get it wrong. This applies to new content and this weird ass skill fixes.
jazilla
I think we need to give Mr. Stumme the benefit of the doubt with this one and the first part of WoC. His mind was on his wedding and work took a backseat. I expect everything from now on to be better.
I kinda like the Mind Wrack change actually.
I kinda like the Mind Wrack change actually.
floor
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Originally Posted by Xsiriss
What's annoying about GW updates/fixes is that even after years of trying and having the community tell them stuff, they get it wrong. This applies to new content and this weird ass skill fixes.
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Well consider the fact that 99.99% of the suggestions proposed to anet are absolutely horrible, and would do nothing but make the game worse, its not all that suprising that they ignore a lot of people's requests. People simply just dont understand what skill balance is.
Best example is all the people who sit here saying "wheres my ele/paragon/ranger buffs??????". gw needs NO more buffs. nerf back the OP stuff, then other stuff which has always been somewhat balanced, wont seem so bad/useless. Unfortunately this is a really big job, and despite the stick that anet get, their updates regarding skill balance are "usually" aimed in the right direction, just unfortunately they are not swinging the nerf bat quite as freely as many people would like, taking a much more cautious approach.
The best analogy i can give for it is this:
In your garden you plant a little bush and some other flowers, for a while its nice, the bush then grows out of control into an enormous hedge(ie- dervishes), its now so big that you cant see the other plants in your garden. What do u do????
a) Buy some new really big plants to go with ur massive hedge. (buff other stuff)
b) Trim the hedge back.... (nerf the actual problem)
I dont think it takes a genius to see the obvious answer.
Fabez
To use the previous analogy of a flower garden, ANet appears to be going with an entirely different option:
c) remove the flowers, no problem with an overgrown hedge if there's nothing else to see.
It's not the best fix, but it could be a temporary solution while they work on solving it for real (flowers can be replanted).
c) remove the flowers, no problem with an overgrown hedge if there's nothing else to see.
It's not the best fix, but it could be a temporary solution while they work on solving it for real (flowers can be replanted).
Lanier
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Originally Posted by floor
Best example is all the people who sit here saying "wheres my ele/paragon/ranger buffs??????". gw needs NO more buffs. nerf back the OP stuff, then other stuff which has always been somewhat balanced, wont seem so bad/useless. Unfortunately this is a really big job, and despite the stick that anet get, their updates regarding skill balance are "usually" aimed in the right direction, just unfortunately they are not swinging the nerf bat quite as freely as many people would like, taking a much more cautious approach.
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One extremely generalized way to look at it is by profession. If the mesmer, necro, and rit are the most powerful professions in PvE and the ranger, paragon, and ele are the least powerful professions in PvE, nerf the first three to the level of the professions in the "middle" of the power spectrum, and buff the underpowered professions to the level of the professions in the middle. Obviously, this is somewhat generalized, but it gets the point accross that balance can only be achieved through a combination of nerfs and buffs (though at this point in the game, far more nerfs are needed).
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Lanier
One extremely generalized way to look at it is by profession. If the mesmer, necro, and rit are the most powerful professions in PvE and the ranger, paragon, and ele are the least powerful professions in PvE, nerf the first three to the level of the professions in the "middle" of the power spectrum, and buff the underpowered professions to the level of the professions in the middle. Obviously, this is somewhat generalized, but it gets the point accross that balance can only be achieved through a combination of nerfs and buffs (though at this point in the game, far more nerfs are needed).
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The common joke in gw about mesmers from the eles players was, "the best denial you can inflict on your enemies is to simply nuke them to death, so why bother with interrupts and skill denial"?
Obviously at that time, Eles were overpowered. There was no AoE-flee AI, no HM, etc. But nerfing an OP class and buffing an underpowered class is exactly what happened to get to where we are today.
Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.
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Missing HB
So, like i said it few weeks ago, they did the terrible epic stuff as usual... Not nerfing dervishs directly but fevered dreams is useless.. but well, they still got some nerf ideas for next months so i guess.....
Also, i would like to say thanks for changing shadow walk 2 years after HB was deleted, surely it was easily twice more overpowered and annoying in GvG or JQ!!
Good job as usual
Also, i would like to say thanks for changing shadow walk 2 years after HB was deleted, surely it was easily twice more overpowered and annoying in GvG or JQ!!
Good job as usual
Lanier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daesu
Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.
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Thus, the problem is just as much the discepency (sp?) between classes as it is the way in which anet chooses to impliment skill updates. Implimenting huge skill updates every 3-9 months is so stupid. What they should do is impliment smaller skill tweaks addressing the absolute worst and absolute best skills in PvE at the time every month.
Skyy High
I don't get why everyone is decrying the FD nerf as "lazy". If sniping one skill (that, incidentally, isn't really used in PvP except for in this build) significantly hurts the triple derv build, is that really such a huge problem? People complain when they do massive sweeping updates because they go overboard, people complain when they do focused updates because they're not addressing the "real issues"....c'mon. Dervs have been hit consistently every update since the original derv buff update, now both of their OP IAS skills have been nerfed back to being actually kind of reasonable, and now their easy daze enabler has been killed. This is a pretty normal development cycle, you know? Buff too much, then scale back as necessary little by little. Yeah, I'm sure there are those among you who would rather they just remove dervishes from the game entirely. Guess what, that's not a helpful idea. They managed to scale assassins back from "omg remove them they're breaking the game!!" to their current reasonably balanced state, but it took a lot of small updates like this. In short: chill out. There's nothing to complain about here. Play with the update, see how it works out, and they'll reevaluate and tackle it again if need be.
lemming
Can we keep the class balance stuff out of this thread? Make a new thread if you guys really want to quibble over whether or not Rangers are worse than Paragons in PvE.
Dervs were a problem before Fevered came into play.
Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.
In the absence of more effort, the Fevered nerf gets the job done, but it's a textbook case of addressing the symptom rather than the problem. (Yes, I know Dervishes got a nerf in this update.)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Skyy High
I don't get why everyone is decrying the FD nerf as "lazy". If sniping one skill (that, incidentally, isn't really used in PvP except for in this build) significantly hurts the triple derv build, is that really such a huge problem?
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Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.
In the absence of more effort, the Fevered nerf gets the job done, but it's a textbook case of addressing the symptom rather than the problem. (Yes, I know Dervishes got a nerf in this update.)
FoxBat
The "timing adjusting" is likely an attempt to fix JQ carriers hanging out in base, as well as FA turtles remaining stuck even when there is *no aggro* on them, which happens often enough. Not really an attempt to address ledge camping.
Pugs Not Drugs
Quote:
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Originally Posted by floor
People often criticise anet's work, saying how the players keep telling you what needs to be done, why dont u listen?
Well consider the fact that 99.99% of the suggestions proposed to anet are absolutely horrible, and would do nothing but make the game worse, its not all that suprising that they ignore a lot of people's requests. People simply just dont understand what skill balance is. Best example is all the people who sit here saying "wheres my ele/paragon/ranger buffs??????". gw needs NO more buffs. nerf back the OP stuff, then other stuff which has always been somewhat balanced, wont seem so bad/useless. Unfortunately this is a really big job, and despite the stick that anet get, their updates regarding skill balance are "usually" aimed in the right direction, just unfortunately they are not swinging the nerf bat quite as freely as many people would like, taking a much more cautious approach. The best analogy i can give for it is this: In your garden you plant a little bush and some other flowers, for a while its nice, the bush then grows out of control into an enormous hedge(ie- dervishes), its now so big that you cant see the other plants in your garden. What do u do???? a) Buy some new really big plants to go with ur massive hedge. (buff other stuff) b) Trim the hedge back.... (nerf the actual problem) I dont think it takes a genius to see the obvious answer. |
I would have agreed with you a few months ago, but that was before the Titan Quests and WoC in HM. You pretty much need to abuse the most OP PvE classes to succeed in those, simply because of how ridiculous the enemies are. If the quests were toned down, then I would agree to nerfing all classes down to an equal state.
urania
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Originally Posted by lemming
Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.
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so i guess its time to shit on monks with div and shame chains again.
or perhaps bringing a pod necro/dual blinder instead.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by lemming
Can we keep the class balance stuff out of this thread? Make a new thread if you guys really want to quibble over whether or not Rangers are worse than Paragons in PvE.
Dervs were a problem before Fevered came into play. Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play. In the absence of more effort, the Fevered nerf gets the job done, but it's a textbook case of addressing the symptom rather than the problem. (Yes, I know Dervishes got a nerf in this update.) |
Infectious
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Originally Posted by Kunder
I would hardly say that FD wasn't part of the problem. It was the epitome of a gimmick skill. There is simply no reasonable way FD could be effectively used in a build without it being overpowered. That is because it was spammable god damned AoE daze, nothing else in the game can come close to what it did. Daze is fundamentally supposed to be a high risk/high reward targetted condition, FD was a spammable make-teams-collapse skill that was unusable unless you ran a gimmick.
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Kunder
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Originally Posted by Infectious
Still missing the point that FD is shit without frag and hum sig + dervs pumping aoe conditions and still pumping out big raw damage.
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Infectious
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Even if you nerf that, FD is still a bad skill because it fundamentally doesn't work (it is a binary useless/OP skill). Everything else you mentioned, if FD is nerfed, may not be too badly overpowered and may work for the game. Therefore FD deserves the nerf because it is a skill that simply has no place.
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We all know GW needs more useless skills to give even less viable builds.
Pragora
Seriously this update to FA was well beyond reason. Okay so we all know the campers on Kurz side taking out turtles or even simply keeping agro. What about all the griefers that goto the Kurz side and open gates? So now lets see the bonuses.
Luxons:
+Siege turtles doing 100-200 dmg through walls on targets within their 500 mile range.
+Griefers can still open gates for an insane amount of time to flood the Kurz base with Luxons off the bat
Kurz:
+No bonus to the update. On the bright side, enjoying more healing for skills bars without it, or with very limited versions of it, due to being shot from one gate to another by a turtle with insane agro range.
+11 Straight losses shows how one sided FA has become. First it was JQ, now its FA.
I know its a bit much to ask, but in fairness, a simple addition to terrain would change the LOS problem from campers, and a change to turtle agro reverted back to the old days would fix the stuck turtle issues in FA.
Luxons:
+Siege turtles doing 100-200 dmg through walls on targets within their 500 mile range.
+Griefers can still open gates for an insane amount of time to flood the Kurz base with Luxons off the bat
Kurz:
+No bonus to the update. On the bright side, enjoying more healing for skills bars without it, or with very limited versions of it, due to being shot from one gate to another by a turtle with insane agro range.
+11 Straight losses shows how one sided FA has become. First it was JQ, now its FA.
I know its a bit much to ask, but in fairness, a simple addition to terrain would change the LOS problem from campers, and a change to turtle agro reverted back to the old days would fix the stuck turtle issues in FA.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Infectious
No because now it is a redundant skill that will never see usage ever again.
We all know GW needs more useless skills to give even less viable builds. |
Infectious
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Originally Posted by Kunder
A skill that is only useless is better than a skill that is only useless OR overpowered, but never balanced. In the latter case, it adds nothing to the game but simultaneously detracts from the game by ruling out potentially good, balanced skills that could be make FD OP but would otherwise be fine in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Infectious
Still missing the point that FD is shit without frag and hum sig + dervs pumping aoe conditions and still pumping out big raw damage.
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Being able to run high spec frag and hum sig on the same bar, its starts to get usable.
Throw 3 melee, who can't be kited, who can churn out conditions like a fat kid going through candy, hit for big numbers, with a no drawback IMS and IAS, and yet still have 90+AL blows it out of the park.
I'm guessing everyone who thinks FD needed the nerf still thinks vaccines are the scourge of the devil, and dervishes are 100% perfectly fine.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Infectious
I'm going to try this one last time.
FD, with its old functionality (while being shit on its own), is fine. Being able to run high spec frag and hum sig on the same bar, its starts to get usable. Throw 3 melee, who can't be kited, who can churn out conditions like a fat kid going through candy, hit for big numbers, with a no drawback IMS and IAS, and yet still have 90+AL blows it out of the park. |
FD has never been a balanced skill. It will never be a balanced skill. It is a bad skill.
Dervs are imbalanced, but that doesn't mean randomly nerf the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of everything to the ground. Thats not how PvP is fixed, that is how PvP is broken in a slightly different fashion.
In case you haven't noticed, Derv armor just got nerfed a ton, churning conditions is much less of a problem with FD gone, melee that doesn't hit for big numbers has always been useless and the derv "thing" is no drawback on the IMS/IAS other than not nearly having 100% uptime (guess what else was just nerfed in this update as well?)
Quote:
| I'm guessing everyone who thinks FD needed the nerf still thinks vaccines are the scourge of the devil, and dervishes are 100% perfectly fine |
Infectious
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Dervs are imbalanced, but that doesn't mean randomly nerf the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of everything to the ground.
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The nerf to FD is the very definition of that.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Infectious
Do you fail to see the irony in this statement?
The nerf to FD is the very definition of that. |
Provide a useful, non-gimmick balanced (i.e. not head rolling on keyboard retarded) build incorporating FD, or admit that spammable AoE daze is inherently a bad idea and nothing can be done to change that. Then GTFO.
Reverend Dr
Fevered Dreams is one of many skills in this game that will either be used in overpowered gimmicks, or not used at all. Nerfing such a skill into complete oblivion means either preventing a terrible, unfun, unsatisfying, morale dropping gimmick from ever seeing the light of day, or nothing.
Especially when its practically a reversal of the old buff that put the daze clause into fevered dreams in the first place.
Especially when its practically a reversal of the old buff that put the daze clause into fevered dreams in the first place.