Protection Prayer needs buff?

Yeah DoA is not for beginners, but what's that has to do with prot prayer?

Or can you give a elite mission/dungeon that got more counter spirit/anti chant than enchantment removal?

I have a IMBAGON, I can safely say it's IMBA in most of the situation, along with ST. It's much easier to use and protect the whole group at once and better than prot prayer in most of the condition, just elite areas like DOA make this problem obviously. As for condition/hex removal/healing, a healing prayer monk can do a better job than prot prayer, actually with 90%+ damage reduction, you don't even need to worry much about these problem in most of the situation, even a hero healing monk can do the job well.


Like I said before, nerf these skills may let new players and random groups have some trouble run DoA, at least not that effective.

I think you missed my point.

Prot prayers may not be as good as ST/Imba in DoA (the ONLY elite area that you mention), but that does not mean a buff is needed in general, only DoA has a lot of anti-enchant. Prot monks are good in nearly EVERY OTHER place.

If you feel that DoA is very anti-monk, then a better solution would be to change DoA, not the monk.

Unless monks are outclassed by ST/Imba in MOST OTHER AREAS, I don't see this as justification that prot prayers should be buffed (at least in the fashion you speak of).

Edit:

There are a few other points. ST/Imba are specialized builds. ST cannot really be run in conjunction with minions, as minions tend to eat up all the triggers. Imba cannot protect well against armor-ignoring damage (3 x E-Surges from a group of roaring ethers). Also imba is vulnerable to blind, block, slow hexes, adrenaline denial, etc... I'm not saying that these builds are bad, but they are just specialized. A prot monk has much more flexibility.

Actually, when I organize a group, I tend to bring a lot characters with mid-line damage mitigation (P-Instability, Panic, weakness, blind, etc...) and I am the only support character running hybrid monk. With a ST/Imba setup, you still need a dedicated healer, or at least another character with healing skills. Of course, I don't use this setup in DoA, but that's just one of MANY areas in GW.

What I'm saying is overall, IMBA/ST>prot prayer in most of the places because

Most of the mobs got more enchantment removal than counter spirit/anti chant skills. DoA is just an example. If I have time I can list about these skills of mobs in other elite missions.

Chants/Spirits affect the whole group at once, most of the prot prayers only affect 1 target at a time, including most of the elites.

I'm not saying it should be brought to the same IMBA level of IMBA/ST, just need some buff to be able to effect the whole group at once and make it not that easy to get removed by change some mobs' skills bars.


As for armor ignoring damage, There is Nothing to Fear also provide 30% damage reduction to the group, but most prot prayer skills can only protect 1 at a time.

With FA/For Great Justice(I also bring a para hero with Anthem of Fury) and some decent hex/condition removal it's not a problem in most of the situation. Signet of Aggression can also build up some adrenaline when I need to. Most of the situation don't bring much trouble to IMBAGON.

Yeah a healer is still needed, then a healing monk will be a better choice.

People still failed DoA with ursan back before it was nerfed, people who don't want to learn an elite area and do it because they think they can make a quick buck will always fail, no matter how much prot gets buffed.

There is a reason there is so much caster-hate in DoA- it was because at the time at it's release people were complaining that everything was so easy (IE: Shitterflame meta).

The areas are ELITE FOR A REASON.There are plenty of ways that people can clear the DoA with little to no experience (DwG, ursan, and keystone to name a few). Please stop using the "newbs can't get into groups!" argument. If people do not want to run builds because they don't have the builds or don't have the skills, then they shouldn't be trying beat elite areas in the first place. If anything, it should be wars and rangers that should be buffed (or in your case broken)- they have almost no use in DoA.


Imba's and STs are there to pad less experienced groups from failure. They serve no purpose in experienced groups because there's no need for them. SCs use Emos for bonds because they actually know how to pull mobs. Monks are there for combat rezzes and seed.

Finally, please try and understand each of the classes roles. Imbagons and STs are there to relieve pressure from the backline, prot monks are to stop spikes and redbar. Neither roles can out-do the other in opposite positions.

This is the same "New players find DoA hard" reasoning which you just can't use to justify a buff over a nerf. Also it makes no sense to buff a line because it'a lackluster in one area as ZephyLynx said earlier.

I ran DoA with heroes, I can say it's a lot harder and slower than run it with DWG groups. You can't blame newbies for not be able to run DoA with heroes, especially Foundry.

Then why should IMBA be the right build for DoA and prot prayer not? Becuase it's elite so it should be super unfriendly to prot prayers than IMBA/ST? Sure war/ranger also should be able to do more in DoA, but prot prayer need some works, too. You can go to DoA and look at the chat, see how many people want a prot monk and how many want IMBA/ST.

Come on IMBAGON/ST can stop the whole group from spikes and redbar. In most of the NM mission areas my heroes(some of them don't have runes/insig) won't even drop to 75%. In elite missions IMBA also prove 90% damage reduction, with ST it's almost impossible to nuke, at least better than 99% of the prot prayer skills.

I always prefer buff rather than nerf because more people will QQ when something get nerfed.

It's amazing how many people just want buffs, and more buffs. :/ We're not hitting the easy button for the elite areas - they're already plenty easy enough with experience.

A player that can just complete the game NM should still not be able to beat the elite areas.. They're elite, a small minority should be able to complete. Those that want to complete it should understand that they need to play well to complete it, not get it handed to them.

If they want to play well, they should do all the numerous other things. Tons of stuff. Trenchway says hi to a prot prayers buff. Jesus, it's already way more powerful than a healing monk in a PvE setting.. No way does it need buffed.

I spent 15 minutes replying to some comments until I realised that I'm still furious with this thread.

Ideas. Yes. Congratulations. I once had an idea of a tiger with wings that used to sing my lullabies. My point? You have no reason. There is no point to buff Protection prayers. Why specifically only Prot prayers?

I don't get it, you want to stop ST/Imbagons being the prots in high end PvE by buffing prot prayers and leave ST/Imagons as they are? How old are you?

You're complaining about DoA. About how enchantment removal means bonding based protting is not viable. Your suggestions, as audacious and uselessly overpowered as they are, still don't assess the problem of multiple ench strips.

Want to know why bonding is not viable? You don't have 8 pips of energy regen.

Want to know why this thread fails? This game was always designed for PvP and with attribute lines to have specific purposes. It may have been watered down over the years, with the constant power creep (thanks to whining PvE players like yourself), but you cannot have godly powers like you're suggesting. Don't ruin Guild Wars for what it is, PvE skills have already done enough of splitting the formats apart.

This thread has no obective. First Prot prayers needs a buff, then it's complaining ST/imbagons are too strong, then it's too much ench strip in DoA. You say it's evident in other elite missions? Explain to me why E/Mo Renewal prot heros are more popular than regular monks.

tl dr: I wouldn't employ you to balance my game.

I already gave out my reasons.

Most of the prot prayers only work on 1 target at a time.

Is group affecting damage reduction needed? Of course, because most of the mobs got strong AOE.

Plus

IMBA/ST provide strong group affecting damage reduction. They also got other advantages such as

Not easy to remove compare to enchantment. if you disagree, welcome to give an example of one elite mission/area that got more counter spirit/anti chant skills than enchantment removal.

They can keep the damage reduction for a long while compare to many prot prayer skills.

Many elite prot prayers are out of date compare to ST/IMBA skills.

Therefore, my solution is

1 Redo some of the elite mission mob skills bars, remove some of the enchantment removal skills. Right now they got a lot of removal skills. Mallyx totally owns enchantment.

2 Reduce some of the skills' CD such as shielding hands, Aegis and SoA, if necessary, make them cant not be used on 1 target too many times in a short period.

3 Add effect on some of the skills, when you cast on one ally others around him will get some benefit such as

Convert Hexes: Removes all hexes; +10 armor to all part members in the area for each Necromancer hex removed (8...18...20 seconds).

Purifying Veil: Conditions expire 5...41...50% faster on target ally. End effect: removes a condition from all party members in the area.

4 Make some elite skills affect the whole group rather than 1 person, such as LB, Air of Enchantment and Shield of Regeneration. Nerf their effect by a little bit if this make them too powerful.

Such as

Shield of Regeneration: (5...11...13 seconds.) +3...9...10 Health regeneration and +25 armor to all party members in the area.

Life Barrier: Reduces other party members' damage by 15...33...42%. If your Health is below 70% when target takes damage, Life Barrier ends.
5 I just got it, add some effect when it is removed by enemy skills.

Is that godly powers to you? Then you must QQ about IMBA/ST for a long while.

You're right, I can't blame newbies. But I can blame people who think that sub-optimal bars must be able to clear areas. There's a reason a meta exists...it works.

Back up a second...you're saying that you have problems finding groups because you want to play pure prot?


I'd love to see a redbarring imbagon build, or ST for that matter. Please share.

Sorry, I'm done here.

/notsigned

The thing is, unless you have a good guild that does not require you. either you have to run the builds that DWG groups ask you to, or you have to run it with heroes.


Tell me what's wrong for add a good new build to DoA? So you admit that prot prayers do not work in DoA? If Anet never change panic from that "-2 eng deg and damage once enemy use signet" to what we have today, we won't see today's DoA require 1, is it wrong to do so?

Rather than "If you don't run the build then don't try to beat it", isn't it better to be "Let's give other classes/build more spaces in these areas"? Plus, is it wrong to give prot prayers group affecting damage reduction when almost all the high level enemies use AOE?

It's just an example, sure it can be rebalanced.
Oh I missed red bars, but spikes can be well prevented.

Prot prayers is powerful. If you make it more powerful, it'll be overpowered. Pretty simple. Prot prayers is a line of single target prot that's significantly more effective than a party protect - but only on one person. This is used for tanking, for counteracting melee, etc. I would not enter any difficult area without a method of single prot. I can enter without party protection, because it's not always needed.

Stop griping because there's other builds to be used. In addition, go look at the E/Mo Ether Renewal bar.

And to respond to above, I use prot prayers in the DoA. Quite often. I don't run meta bars, and I don't use an imba. I sometimes use ST. I always use prot prayers. Just because speed clears don't use prot prayers in the DoA (which trenchway does, anyways) doesn't mean prot prayers are underpowered. Please, go start playing guild wars and learn to play instead of griping.

Most of the mob groups in the elite missions got strong AOE. and compare to single spike it's more dangerous. ST/IMBA can also provide strong reduction to 1 single target(100 more armor+35% damage reduction+15 damage reduction+cannot not more than 10% HP per hit). Can you tell me why most of the people in DoA chat want IMBA/ST?

So it's only effective on elementalists rather than monks themselves is good?

Stop saying other people don't know how to play.
I will say IMBA/ST is a better choice than prot prayer in DoA from my experiences and I gave the mobs' skills on enchantment removal.
Also I don't run DoA much now but everytime I go there and look on the chat they are asking for IMBA/ST rather than prot monks.

I can assure you, people will QQ if Prot prayers is buffed.

Aggro control is cool yeah?

Doa with heroes is possible with every profession, problem is you dont beat with your wammo build. Doa and other elite area's with heroes dont require special builds to finish. What you dont understand is that the builds people suggest have been tested and are countering the skill bars of the mobs. Nobody is stopping/or is being limited by the game to finish doa their way. You dont finish doa heroway with builds but mostly with tactics and strategy's. The problem people need to learn these ''skills''. I dont think it is favourable for the game that all elite area's become a c-space fest as most of guildwars already is.

Your speed clear argument is bs. speedclears always favor certain builds and leave out a majority of the lines. its more or less a FOTM maybe next speed clear your proffession or favorite attribute line is included. buffing stuff just so that it is included in the speed clears is bad, very bad, like power creep bad.

and your skill suggestions, you do not get the point of protection prayers do you. protection prayers is attribute line that requires careful usage. As skills can give you very high yield for the energy you are spending. examples are spirit bond, soa, shielding hands even protective spirit. all these skill if placed correct negate a lot of incoming damage, it is not facerolling over your keyboard because. For enchantment stripping as that seems to be your big problem with using prot prayers. You bring a midline with interupts for that or you cover them. You have so many options now that you can bring 7 heroes to counter the stuff that is thrown at you.

/end rage

No reason there is a massive powercreep with this kind of attitude. I mean, you want to buff prot prayers because they can't keep up with an imbagon? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing seriously? Its called imbagon because its imbalanced herp derp. Nerf imbagon and ST prot spirits and prot prayers instantly becomes more "useful" (not to say it isn't already).

You realize that that's the point? To make missions not as steam-rollable?

Then don't repost them! I've read them already and that was my reply, this will be a never ending circle of idiocy if you keep turning back to your same point ALL OVER AGAIN. Not to mention your suggestions are absurd to say the least.

All you say is that elite areas have strong AoE. Enchants are easier to strip than mindless AI not attack spirits out of range.

Congrats, you're able to point out the obvious. This is plainly a QQ thread asking for stupid buffs.

I should have never gotten into this PvE discussion. Hurr Durr this, Derp that. Ignorance is bliss when you play PvE I guess. Have you even read anyone's explanation about what real Protting can actually accomplish? There are builds and counter builds and in PvE, you're there to make money. DoA is no longer about exploring and having fun, you're trying to farm armbraces. Take the best builds and do it quicker, stop QQing about single target prots when you clearly have no grasp of this game.

Close this thread, he has to be trolling, no one can carry a 3 page long thread on copy + pasting the same argument on every page... If this was another forum, I'd be much less polite.

I know you can hero it, but it's much slower and harder for many new players.

I also compared protection prayer with other 2 popular damage reduction. I'm not saying it should be brought to the same level of IMBA/ST, just let some skills be able to bring some benefit when you cast a spell on one target, and let some elite skills be able to affect the group at once because right now they are really out of date I'll say. Is it too much? Prot monks can't even ask for elite group affecting damage reduction skills when AOE is everywhere?
High level area's mob groups all have strong AOE and thus group affecting skills are needed. Is that very bad?

Group affecting skills aren't needed if you execute proper aggro control. DwG get away with balling up in AoE because ST allows them to hence why it should be nerfed rather than bringing Prot up to its level.

So yes; it is very bad.

I'm quite firmly against buffing Protection Prayers. There're some weak skills in Protection Prayers that could use a buff, such as Amity, but as a whole Protection Prayers is quite a strong line.

Some important points:

1. Protection Prayers has one of the most powerful party-wide defensive skills in the game aka. Aegis.
2. Single-target Protection spells can actually be stronger than party-wide spells, especially in a 7H environment. Shelter can die quickly, and there is no substitute for Shield of Absorption.
3. Again in a 7H environment, while ST Defensive Rits can keep up Shelter nicely, remember that by using an ST you are giving up on one of the strongest damage-dealing templates around, the SoGM offensive Rit (the SoS is even more powerful). In fact, regardless of whether or not you have mercenaries, the moment you use ST you are giving up on damage. This would be an issue if you really needed the extra defense, but there are very very few areas where I need to use Shelter.
4. AoE spells can decimate a party, thus giving the illusion that Shelter is way stronger than Protective Spirit. But that's only an illusion. You see, if you are taking enough AoE damage for Shelter to be superior then chances are you didn't manage aggro. In some sense therefore you deserve to wipe. Good players can usually manage with just Protective Spirit. As before, by using only Protective Spirit the good player can bring more powerful offensive templates and therefore do things faster.
5. Shelter does not work well with minions. And again, if you give up minions you are giving up also one of the most powerful hero templates around.

There are three Protection Prayers spells that are extremely powerful in PvE right now: Protective Spirit, Aegis and Shield of Absorption. Two of these are single-target, but if you use them well they're far stronger than using defensive spirits. Several other Protection Prayers spells are also very powerful: Spirit Bond and Protective Bond (hohoho ER Eles) especially. Protection Prayers does not need a general buff; in fact in the 7H environment Protection Prayers is already stronger than imbagons and Ritualist spirits.

how ignorant do you plan to be, IT IS AN ELITE AREA/END GAME CONTENT. it is supposed to be hard/slow/difficult/frustrating for new players. Do you believe it should be more of a cake walk than it already is.

As fate crusher said you just continue your circle of repetitive arguments. IMBA and ST are Overpowered in other words not balanced or NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE. You agree with that even, now where we disagree is that protection prayers needs a buff, ill explain in simple points why not:

1. It is fine as it is (IE general consensus in this post) as it is designed to be coupled with skillful play to reach maximum yield not push buttons on recharge (IE IMBA and ST)
2. It is powercreep no matter how you buff it as protection prayers is if used with anything except Ether Renewal is balanced
3. You dont buff skills based on a single area of content or because there so much enchantment removal

LAST NOTE: New players should LEARN TO PLAY(not meant in an insulting way they should really just experience the game and learn from their failures) not be helped by some random buff to protection prayers. I dont think even ANET has the stupidity to buff protection prayers.

BTW: why dont you include WOC in your arguments as enchantments are pretty much useless due to the mass enchantment removals by soul explosions

There is another thing to consider, ST/Imba bars devote most of the bar to its purpose, while prot prayers are evaluated one skill at a time. Prot spirit only needs one skills (prot spirit), but shelter needs at least shelter, st, some kind of energy management, armor of unfeeling to extend its life, and preferably summon spirits. Imba requires an IAS, adrenaline multiplier, and SY!. For each prot prayers skill, the effect is much greater (on a single target) than ST/Imba. It just requires more thought, rather than button mash on recharge.

Another note, you mentioned that ST/Imba could redbar... What? (no, the 60 healing from TNtF! every 20 seconds does not really count). You mention that TNtF! can reduce all damage by 30% (which is good), but prot prayer skills are much stronger when used correctly. I run high specced prot, and if spirit bond triggers just 3 times, it's about a 300 heal. If it triggers all 10 times (which can happen easily in hm) its nearly a 1000 heal. Don't get me wrong, ST/Imba are strong builds and are easy to play, but a skilled prot monk (and a competent team) can be even more useful.

A lot of damage mitigation can actually come from play style and positioning. If your group chills in sand storm, that's not a case for ST/Imba being stronger than prot prayers, but rather a need for your team to learn positioning. A caster running in first to aggro is not a good idea. Good use of aggro technique can reduce the need of AoE damage reduction.

Even if the majority of players would agree with OP, the update is 95% leaning towards never going to happen. Defense is defense, just use the better build and don't complain. Instead of waiting for an eternity for an update, just conform to what's best.



I would also like to know why exactly does it matter? Isn't beating the game with a Prot the same as beating it with ST/Imba? So prots can't sc, so? Its just PVE..

So I went through this thread and had a great laugh. However I think this thread is near the end anyways. The OP clearly has no clue at all and whatever ideas he/she may have are never ever going to be implemented. I had plans of writing a wall of text but then after reading through this entire thread I realized I'd be wasting more time then I already am because it's clearly not getting through to the OP so to finish...

@OP - Can I try some of that stuff you're smoking because it seems like it really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs you up.

Maybe in PvE, but my position when it comes to 'passive defense' in competitive gameplay will never change.
It must be minimal.
One example to illustrate that is a katana swordfight vs a fight with heavily armored opponents.
The outcome will be the same, two fight, one wins and one lose, or they draw.
The main difference is that the fight with the heavily armored guys is sluggish, takes way longer, and waaay more boring.
Defense in competitive gameplay should come from offensive means, like the ones they have in TF2: Cover fire from the heavy, pipebomb traps from the demoman and turrets from the Engineer.
If you cast a Savannah heat on an enemy and they interrupt their casting at you allies to move away, that's defense too.,

Anyways, when it comes to PvE, I only find two problems with protection prayers:
1. Heroes are way more effective than players using protection prayers skill most of the time. They react in server time and see all health bars even before players see them. A player protector getting a lag hit main mean a wipe, but a player getting a lag hit who has a hero protector can easily survive the lag hit. This could be addressed with some more changes like the one done to Shield Guardian, but will never be fully fixed, since connections are not perfect.
2. Frakking Emo bonders. An elementalist being better than a monk using a build like that one is an insult to both monks and elementalists. How to fix it? Making elementalists better with their own skills would help a little. And frankly, I wouldn't mind having Ether renewal changed so it gives health with any spell, but energy only with elementalist spells. I don't care how many people may think otherwise, and I'm glad GW2 is losing secondary professions so it doesn't happen again.

Many people including myself saw this coming when someone from arena net said that secondary professions became broken.

Protection prayers is actually on par with healing prayers, it just takes more experience to use prot in pve. As for the whole DoA argument... back when DoA first came out I cleared it with a prot monk but no one is willing to try or use different builds today because of tards running DwG and the shit SC meta, everyone also assumes if your on a monk and not running healing your a scrub and boot you from the group.

Almost every skill in game has a niche somewhere in the game but prot prayers is far from having a niche because it is good in pve but completely shines in pvp.

Healing prayers has always been the star of the monk lines but prot can more than enough rise to the occasion and outshine healing, you just need to look beyond DoA.

Eugh.
A fight between unamoured opponents with weapons that can very easily kill will be anything but fast paced and exciting. If anything, the armoured opponents will be willing to take larger risks.
See old-style fencing and dueling versus modern day competitive fencing.
The risks in a duel are very high; it's very easy to get hit and the costs of that are potentially extreme resulting in a very slow pace. This strongly contrasts with competitive fencing where the only cost is your opponent scoring a point and in Foil and Sabre (two of the three fencing weapons) they may not even get that; in fact, Epee (the third) is the slowest weapon precisely because getting hit will result in your opponent scoring!

Now in Guild Wars, the result of taking damage is generally low, we have healing, but result of deaths can be quite high. So we take steps to minimise those risks in the form of strong defense of any form. At this abstract level, there is no difference between the more active defense like an interrupt gives or even something like Reversal of Fortune and the more passive Shelter or Defensive Anthem.
If shutdown were taken to the extremes then matches wouldn't be significantly more interesting; nothing much would happen. Interrupts however, have the added offensive dimension as well as having a defensive role; they can both help kill and keep people alive and so when added into a balanced mixed can make for more interesting play.

Regarding your other two points:
A hero is better at prot than a bad player. To be honest I find a reasonable standard to be 'a player is bad at something if a hero does his job better' with the exception of spamming interrupts.
The ER guys have a couple of strong prots and a very strong single target heal and nothing else. Now what they can do with that is still a little unfair; being able to spam some of the strongest prots in the game with impunity whilst getting the strongest single target heal in the game is a little unfair; it doesn't make the Monk useless even with Protection Prayers. Hell, even a WoH Hybrid bar has more utility than a ER bar, just less raw power but with a good team, you don't need that power so the extra utility might come in handy.

So dumby down the game and give you shiny rewards for having no skill...makes sense.

/not signed

you want party heals run a rit or imba

I can't help but think that the OP is simply upset that he has to use the same two builds all the time, nvm that those builds are very welcome in DoA, the only area where ST rits and imbas are popular.

Nerfing the only usable build for paras, or a very vulnerable and limited build for rits is kinda overkill and pointless.

I do see value in nerfing Emo bonders though.
Make Intesity cause all enemies attacked by the skill to lose 15% of their speed and nuking is back in style.

With just healing monks the life bars will jump all over the place, but they can see this.

With good prot the bars go down slower, or don't go down, omfg scrub DO SOMETHING!

It actually takes a very high level of awareness about the game to be able to see when a prot is doing a good job, an amazing job, a tolerable job, or a terrible job. Unsurprisingly those lacking this awareness don't care about this kind of distinction when there exists overpowered red bar builds that make the distinction near irrelevant.

I can't think of a single healing build that makes good protection irrelevant. I can think of many other things that make good use of prot prayers irrelevant, but healing isn't one of them.

Unfortunately PvE is not about doing your best, but about getting over a bar. If a couple of heal monks can get over that bar, it doesn't matter if a "good" prot can clear the bar by an extra 10 feet; the end result is that you all got over the bar, which is the only metric for 'success.'

Aside from that, it should be plainly clear that pushing red bars up is far easier than effectively protting. If you don't have a high level of awareness, then you will neither know how (theory not just reflexes) or be able to discern effective protting. I mean we're talking about pugs. How many of them are particularly adept at the whole game and how many of them just regurgitate some build that they copied and hold as absolute cannon?

There are times when two heal monks alone cannot get over that bar.
And there are also times when I would like to be able to succeed in less than the hour or two it can take pugs, particularly if they choose to only bring heals without any meaningful protection or equivalent.

I dunno about that.

Also prot's lack of synergy with Save Yourself combined with most Pug's having such a hard on for that skill. Sure you can play a build that requires far more awareness and ability, or the warrior, or sin, or derv, or paragon can just spam this one button everytime it lights up.

I'm not trying to say that prot is bad or anything (it isn't), its just that with all of the other overpowered garbage, there isn't much of a reason to run it other than self-satisfaction.

Save Yourselves is one of those things that can make good use of protection prayers irrelevant, yes. That combined with two heal monks will get you through most of the game.

My point is not that protection prayers is necessary, but that healing alone will not suffice; you need some other form or prevention, be it SY, Prot, Spirits, Minion walls or SF tanking (tons of disruption too I suppose). If you're not convinced then take a pug through Forgewight HM the next time it comes up as the ZQuest with two heal monks and without any of the above. If you succeed in less than 90 minutes I'll be surprised and if you do it within 40 minutes I'll concede.