another solution to pvp elitism in a not league/matchmaking way

Organizing JQ/FQ won't do anything unless they put in DP and increase the rez timer to at least 1 min. That and the majority of player attention being focused on NPC's are why those are often not considered 'real' pvp formats.

I'm sorry but I said "builds like RoJ". It's gimmicks, any way to exploit the map objectives.

And why on earth are you bringing in DoTA? DoTA first of all, and every other moba game will always be about forcing ganks and never fair gameplay. 2v1, 3v1, you are always looking for ganks and gaining an upperhand. Even in a TF or lane fights, the result is pretty much guaranteeed the moment you initiate. LoL is an e-sport and DoTA2 might become one as well, but this is not because of objectives but because of map control and smart play.

I'd rather not get in a discussion with you, mainly because of your pure lack of PvP knowledge and your ineffective, often childish, argumental powers (see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...t10489467.html), but because you're already hijacking the thread.

To counter elitism, the game has to change. You can't just take away ranks or split ranks into specific stages. But to be honest, there's nothing stopping new players from creating a guild and build their own community of new players, instead of trying to join heavily experienced people. I agree that an r6 should not discriminate against an r3-5, because he has nothing to brag about apart from an extra few days of playing. That should definitely be frowned upon.

Anet never prepared the game for a lower population. They concentrated on catering for high-end PvP players by creating mAT and other things, but didn't realise it would be harder for new players once the population decreased heavily. Their initial statements were "just make a guild and find other new people!". Sure, but there aren't enough anymore. What have they done? nothing.


Agreed. I did say this but mine was more longwinded. I need to learn how to be more concise :P

exploiting map objectives.. and map control...
same thing?

exploit: the use of a >bug or design flaw< by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

control: the ability to purposefully direct, or suppress, change. so to use something to your advantage without exploiting.

same thing?

so using roj/aoe on chok point is an exploit or not?
I don't know fate crusher seems to group them as an exploit...

is like saying half full is good, but half empty is bad..

If JQ would ever become a competitive format it would definitely need some reworking. NPC's would have to be placed more spread out at the points to make AoE less effective, and their skill sets would have to change to favor melee classes a bit more. Also, some of the glaring bugs (Juggers/Turtles getting stuck) and imbalances (The Yellow point Ranger Shrines) would need to be fixed. But to say JQ can not be competitive at all I beg to differ. Obviously you are fighting NPC's a lot, but in a lot of GvG games, the most critical and effective play comes from splits demolishing NPC's, which is in essence the same thing. Of course, JQ is currently dominated by gimmicks, but perhaps that is partially true because it is not organized enough to have players counter those builds. I often play a Ranger in JQ, as opposed to a RoJ monk or Necro Bomber. Not only can I cripple and kill turtles, but I can also prevent Necro Bombers from even reaching the shrine and I can prevent RoJ from ever been cast. Obviously, in competitive play, such builds would see much more play and to counter that players would have to come up with new, innovative builds to counter the interrupting. Perhaps Assassin's will see some extensive use to take down players like me who stalk RoJ monks and shut them down. Maybe our team would then again bring a monk to protect me from that Assassin. We just created a new meta-game. It's essentially a more split-based objective heavy PvP format.

^Agree

I play AoE prot monk and nothing can take the shrine im at or kill a turtle/juggy unless 4 or 5 rush me.

Well he's not entirely right.. but let's say it's about abusing poor NPC's IA... If they didn't stand in AoE or just spammed skills randomly, i'm pretty sure there would be less problems there...

About game not being done for a lower population : i don't know... There are arguments pros and cons , some being quite illogic :
- it would have made some sense to have 6v6 HA( GvG eventually but that would be fine already) with heroes allowed today and not in 2006
- PvE with 7 heroes is obviously made to counter that problem...
- some formats require too many players to live ( plus it requires the fun and the reward to make those players come)... deleted ones didn't require a lot


In my opinion, i would just say " they never cared of PvP " rather than the game isn't made for a low population...

turn fa into dota style. fixd

oh and bad thing about heroes in pvp you can have them scripted perfectly to execute a crystal clean spike.

they already do that in pve. wts perfect synchro ion cannon spikes.

I did win a lot with rspike heroway in the past.. it was actually quite easy to do after you tried a few times..

Problem however is that you can't control those henchs they gave us... which leads to some jokes. Although they are quite OP at spamming hexes with perfect e-management... they usually don't target the right guy.. or even heal NPC's..
Blahks and tutella are almost never using any skill on ghostly hero... nor are julyia and frohs on guild lord... this fact is quite annoying ...

lol, that r spike with heroes was insane: prepared shot+sundering and penetrating shot

Don't people get good at things by trial and error? It's not that insanely hard to watch a pvp match to get a general idea then apply. Keep trying until you are good at it? Most high ranked players just play invoke spike bc it's easy, learn that first.

heroes were always a bad thing, people took heroes over real players because a hero could play that bar 100 times better then a real player could, did u even obs when heroes were still in play before they were removed, they infested top 200 gvg and every toomz group had 2 heroes in em.

Yet, heroes would :
- help low ranked players to win a few fights considering they are " too OP"
- help low ranked players ( or anyone) to be able to play at anytime( americans and asians say hi)

Besides, if it's still a problem, then being able to team with those henchs instead of heroes could be an option....( not many OP bars and henchs aren't targeting ghost/glord anyway so that won't be much a matter)

The OP wants to deal with " elitism in a not matchmaking/league system way " . That means you at least have to deal with :
- inactivity
- people playing for the reward only ( read... finding a solution which won't make players coming getting farmed by smurfers or w/e...)

Anyway, they won't do anything so we shall not care... but i don't believe anything else that teams with full henchs will solve the situation..

Not strictly speaking. It takes the right attitude to be able to improve. The very first step is to admit you've done something wrong, which so many people would never admit to doing (even to just themselves).

This is why mentoring programs didn't work.

pvp not pve.

Really? When was the last time heroway won a mAT (or won silver, for that matter)? I remember one guild running Lacerate heroway on Corrupted Isle, but they lost flawless, if I recall correctly..

You are deliberately being obtuse as to ignore the difference between GvG and HA. In GvG movement and player's individual actions are extremely important, often times individuals will be moving or reacting alone. This is something that even amazingly microed heroes will simply never be able to do.

These type of issues really start to disappear when you get into HA. HA maps are significantly smaller and most end up with teams butting heads against each other until one cracks. When was the last time heroway won halls? Every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing night.

Even then the prevailing reason that so many, myself included, wanted them out of the game was that they were:
1) not satisfying to play with (If we didn't have 8 humans, we'd rather do nothing than grab a hero)
2) not satisfying to play against (We would rather lose to 8 humans than steamroll a team with heroes)

I didn't see many heroes in top 200 GvG. I don't know / don't care about HA.

Also good for you that you'd rather do nothing than play with heroes, but I'm the opposite. I can't count the number of times I've tried to form GvG and there hadn't been enough players. One time maybe, but if you keep trying and failing for two whole weeks you might change your mind.

PS: I don't find it unsatisfying if I beat to a team with henchmen, although I admit I feel like an idiot if I lose to one.
PPS: Heroes do nothing a player can't do, and they come with lots of intrinsic disadvantages. Somehow I feel that people lose to heroway because they play bad. Before you start mentioning Gwen's 1337 interrupts, I'll say that if interrupts are the problem, nerf hero AI, not remove heroes from PvP.

Your 2 arguments are making no sense... Basically, you tell players " play on euro evening or uninstall "

WHat about :
- is that satisfying to face 3 dervish on every fight today?
- is that satisfying that blahks and tutella cannot heal the ghostly hero ?
- is that satisfying to not be able to play the format while 1 guild is doing the same every morning to get free hall wins ?

I can understand Dirk/bellicus can be a little annoying, but seriously, did we see hench teams getting a good score ever on a MaT ??

Besides, you can't deny that the game has gotten worse and worse since the day they removed heroes from PvP....

people ran smiting heroes, they are godly at multitasking, pre protting and removing conditions and hexes straight away u seem pretty cluless...

@ missing HB
Yes the game has gotten less active, worse too probably, but thats a result of several issues such as the age of the game, perhaps some bad balancing, players quitting to do real life stuff. It almost certainly has nothing to do with heroes being removed from gvg/ha lol.

Im also assuming you dont ever try to play gvg/ha, because its rarely as dead as you make it out to be. Although i do concede its much much worse than it was 3-5 years ago.

Euro hours is very playable.
American hours is still playable, maybe u have to wait 3mins for a match instead of 10s 3 years ago, but its still not rly a long time.
Asian Hours is the worst of all, but if you really want to play then it depends on you knowing the right people. The B AT has at least 5, usually around 10, guilds every single day. Thats 80+ ppl, not including the ones who are not in the AT. Unfortunately for those players who are actually from asia, in order to play its necessary that you get to know the euros with no school/job/life to go to, so that they can play at 11am every day. Deleting asian servers back in 2007(?) was probably the single biggest mistake anet ever made. Koreans and japanese players on late at night made euro hours more competitive, asians on early made american hours more competitive, and koreans on at all meant you could play the game right through the whole 24h of a day combined with the euro and american timezone players.

Back on topic, if you made hero AI worse, (and it should always of sucked to encourage grouping with players), it would be impossible to win a match with heroway (it kinda was already without spamming hexes at rank 2k), so people wouldnt play it anyway. When heroes were removed, nothing of value was lost.

Just go out and expand your circle of friends, then you wont need heroes.

And ReX got owned every single mAT they played, don't think they ever won bronze, despite Smiting heroes being so godly. What's your point?

@floor - two things:

1. Asian timezones are so dead I'm sorely tempted to simply stop trying to form. It doesn't work. I've added over 20 people to my friend's list yet there usually are only 5-6 people online at any one time, many of which aren't available to guest. Several players were active only a short while and then completely disappeared. Others, particularly the more skilled ones that I'm keen to guest, tend to already be guesting or playing themselves ... or playing RA (*cough* you *cough*).

There are guilds that play the AT B, but most of them don't play very consistently and even after I PM'ed some of the people I saw on obs they didn't seem very interested in guesting. I even requested alliance with KvZ, who were (according to two people I talked to) allied only with themselves and their smurfs, and I got no response.

If you know any players who are often online during Asian timezone please tell me so I can guest them. Maybe Asian timezones won't be so dead then.

2. It's always been difficult to win with heroway if you play against a decent team. It's been difficult even with hero AI the way it is now. I firmly believe that if a guild is unable to beat a team that uses characters who can't split, can't weaponswap and can't kite well deserve to lose.

Heroes shouldn't have been removed from GvG. Using them was already inferior to using humans, but they gave more options when you can't find the players or have an emergency (which guild missed out on silver last mAT because they used Luzy Fiera?).

clearly you have issues getting to know people. because i do at b with my aussie fellas and guesting atleast 3+ different people each time, and you are saying heroes don't get you far then why would you want to play with heroes anyway?

I challenge you to name who these "aussie fellas" are. All the Aussies I know haven't played the AT B for at least a week, possibly more.

Since heroes don't get you far why bother removing them from GvG?

6 aussies playing in dota, i never said heroes dont get you far, im taking these assumptions right out of your own statement.

Give me their IGNs.

And yes, I believe heroes don't get you far. What's your point?

a lot of the dutch/belgian guys from pzz are usually on, same as the guys (and girl) from KvZ. Quite regularly those serbian people from sky bar or sth are on too. Then u got like Mindless Team who seem to B AT a lot, and eLuv players are pretty often too. Theres also Russia (player not the country) and whoever hes playing with at the time, which in many cases will be some russian players, who's timezone is actually more suited to B AT's than a lot of europe. The french guys from [love] are often online early when they play, mind, magrosse etc. Also the frenchies from [Emo/AmeN] occasionally show up in B AT's. I think generally just french ppl as a whole seem to be online a lot at that time of day. There are also other various players who are regularly online for B AT times, brutel, zrox (and other ppl from [SupG]), living, wratto, TJ etc etc

Theres usually a load of ppl on at around the time of the B AT and for a cuple hours afterwards, its just knowing who they are, and where to find them. A lot of ppl sit around on vents and things, they're free to play, just not online.

Then consider that my above list does not contain anyone from asia or america (or euros who moved to australia such as ronaldo from sC!), and there are also other europeans who could be added to the list who i either didnt think of or dont know.

Pugging asian timezone is a challenge, but if u know the right ppl and have a decent friendslist, not impossible.

Big problem is active GvG'ers ( aka the ones playing on euro evening ) are convinced that it's easy to get in GvG and there are fights at anytime... and yet any non active GvG'er will tell you the opposite.... that's pretty strange isn't it ? You know, if i just played ( probably like you do) on 8-9pm only every day, i wouldn't say it's inactive... unfortunately i don't really, and i advice you try to play on like 7-11am GMT and try to argue then...

Also, i can tell you i do play a lot GvG and HA these days and it's the same for both... HA being the worst...

Only diference with GvG is that you usually end up facing some rating 500 guild... but they leave at begin so that's quite the same as if you didn't play...

side note ( a bit off topic) : i'm pretty sure there would be more guilds on At/MAT if hours were quite diferent.... Having the choice between noon or night isn't really cool...

I should've asked you for those names weeks ago floor, now maybe I can finally organize AT Bs more often !!

Well mainly the problem is there are few people playing PvP and even fewer that want to help the PvEers get better and a whole lot of people complaining but not trying hard enough to improve.

Randomways are just failways and constantly lose and doing stuff like RTL you can't really learn the maps as you don't tend to win many matches lol....

If people want to start to learn to PvP now they will have to put in a lot of effort or join with a PvP guild I would say. I keep trying to get my friend to do some PvP stuff but although he has about 36+ maxed titles he is pretty much clueless on builds for PvP.

I maybe do a 75/25 PvE/PvP split with game time on Guild Wars but I managed to get GWAMM in PvE and R4 Hero and G1 which is ok I suppose, so if I can do it anyone can lol

so if heroes don't get you far then whats the point in having them? you answered your own question.

you are much thicker then i first thought, I'll leave it at that, also probably the reason why you are unable to get guested or acquire guests.

So if heroes don't get you far what's the point in removing them? You have not answered the question.

Not getting far is not the same as going nowhere.

His point was heroes/henchs i guess.. as long as we can pick those to get match quicker... but assuming you're right... what was the point of having that henchman contest then?? All those henchs they added should have some better use....

Besides, the reason for me to get heroes/henchs teams ( after inactivity) is also about too boring metas ( HA especially)... it would be cool to just get the build i want and run it without expecting the classic : " i gtg " followed by " me too " then disband after you lost 2 times...

side note : people not believing me can press B right now, people are syncing HA to get easy wins... really, how pathetic the format is because we cannot use henchs there for no reason....