I keep seeing recommendations to use Vampiric mods in the various PvE forums.
I've read that, numerically speaking, Vampiric weapons do more damage because of the life drain.
However, my own experience with Vampiric weapons (that being on an Assassin), have been less than stellar.
Enemies die so fast that the self-drain actually has more impact than taking health from them, even spamming dagger attacks as quickly as possible.
So I end up charging in with my Vamp daggers, killing everything in sight, then having to switch to non-Vamp daggers before my health gets too low.
Using non-Vamp daggers renders the EXACT same result, without having to worry about my own weapons killing me.
In 90% of situations, I've ended a fight thinking "Why didn't I just use my non-Vamp daggers and save myself the trouble?"
So what's the big deal with Vampiric weapons?
What's so good about Vampiric?
Absolute Destiny
Marty Silverblade
The pip of health degen is trivial. If you're getting close to dying, it has nothing to do with your vamp mod. It offers more DPS than other mods (as you mention), so that's what you should use unless there is a really good reason to use something else.
Prestige
[Just wanted 2 add]
Runners often ask for such a weapon because it kills the user, so if the runner gets wiped, he can continue whatever he was doing.
Runners often ask for such a weapon because it kills the user, so if the runner gets wiped, he can continue whatever he was doing.
Fate Crusher
Having 4 weapon sets means you only need to use your vampiric weapon when you unload your damage. Swap back to a defensive set or Zealous daggers (for your case as an assassin) to benefit on the fly.
Casshern
If you play as an assassin, I recommend you to forget about vampiric and use only zealous(or elemental if you use conjure) and left vampiric mod for PvP warriors and dervishes... or maybe for your sin if you'll go PvP with your PvE sin(and even there I still recommend you to use zealous and elemental mods, but vampiric is nice too if you don't use conjure or don't need energy). I just think that using vamp mod in PvE doesn't make much sense
Swahnee
The vampiric>sundering thing (when it comes to damage) is the result of DPS calculation, nothing more.
Then, let me note that it makes sense to do these calculations only if the fight you are going to have is really difficult, so you need to worry about maximizing your DPS (expecially PvP then).
If you are facing little mobs which go down in a few hits (most HM mobs are included here), then the fight you are having can't really be called difficult, and so it doesn't justify any calculation at all, and so you can use w/e weapon you want barely noticing any difference..
From another point of view, when the fight isn't so demanding in terms of DPS, the contribute of vampiric instead of sundering instead of anything is much less than the contribute of your build setup. This is to say that it's better to worry about taking SoH on a hero, than to worry about using vampiric instead of something else, for example.
In other circumstances, instead, you may need every drop of DPS you can produce, and so you will be concerned with choosing the best weapon mod too.
Then, let me note that it makes sense to do these calculations only if the fight you are going to have is really difficult, so you need to worry about maximizing your DPS (expecially PvP then).
If you are facing little mobs which go down in a few hits (most HM mobs are included here), then the fight you are having can't really be called difficult, and so it doesn't justify any calculation at all, and so you can use w/e weapon you want barely noticing any difference..
From another point of view, when the fight isn't so demanding in terms of DPS, the contribute of vampiric instead of sundering instead of anything is much less than the contribute of your build setup. This is to say that it's better to worry about taking SoH on a hero, than to worry about using vampiric instead of something else, for example.
In other circumstances, instead, you may need every drop of DPS you can produce, and so you will be concerned with choosing the best weapon mod too.
gremlin
For me Vampiric weapons are there for the odd occasion where I am in a fight and we seem to be in a stalemate and I just cannot finish off the opponent.
Last time was with Kephet Marrowfeast and it was some years back, the vampiric mod just gave me a little more to wear him down.
Not a great fan though, said it before its a flawed concept and they should have made it work in some other way.
Last time was with Kephet Marrowfeast and it was some years back, the vampiric mod just gave me a little more to wear him down.
Not a great fan though, said it before its a flawed concept and they should have made it work in some other way.
End
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Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
The pip of health degen is trivial. If you're getting close to dying, it has nothing to do with your vamp mod.
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While you are fighting provided you aren't blinded or being blocked you are gaining health comes out to .25 health per second which isn't much but basically proves that if you are having health issues while fighting its nothing to do with your weapon mod. This only increases with a ias like critical agility.
While out of battle switch to another weapon. Personally, I like to switch to a longbow and start pulling the next group.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
So what's the big deal with Vampiric weapons?
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Swahnee also rightly pointed out that, in actuality, when compared to the overall DoT (Damage over Time) of your build and your party, the difference with any mod is slight. In particular, the difference between 20/20 sundering and Vampiric is negligible.
For example, years ago when I argued this subject by showing actual damage results of 20/20 vs Vamp on targets in the Isle of the Nameless, I was told that the ~50 hits I used wasn't enough - if I wanted to prove it, I would need hundreds of data results. Well, hel-lo! If it takes hundreds of hits to show a difference, then the difference is negligible!
Overall, my take on the various mods (strictly PvE) is:
Poisonous/barbed/crippling/heavy/cruel - not really useful. The few times that extending a condition actually helps, is far outweighed by the extra damage you would do with sundering or vamp.
Silencing - Most things that cause dazing are relatively short, so extending them can be beneficial, especially if your build is based upon daze/interrupt.
Icy/ebon/fiery/shocking - only useful if your build is based around that particular type of damage.
Furious - not worth the small increase in adrenaline when compared to other damage mods. Mostly only useful for things like an Imbagon where adrenaline production is more important than DPS.
Zealous - not worth the degen unless you are actually hitting multiple targets, but it is worthwhile, for some classes, to carry a zealous weapon to switch to when needed.
Vampiric - overall, not worth the hassle, but can be useful if you constantly switch weapons, and/or if you are actually hitting multiple targets.
Sundering - default go-to mod if no other mod applies. Has basically the same DoT as Vampiric, without the bother.
Outerworld
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Mostly, it's "leet-ism". Somebody did some calculations way back when and determined that Vamp had the most DPS (Damage Per Second). But, as Swahnee so rightly pointed out, they were basically "theoretical" calculations and have little to do with actual game play, especially in PvE. However, it became a sign of your "leet" status to spout this nonsense, so a lot of people do. Some will even go to the ridiculous extreme of saying things like "Sundering sux".
Swahnee also rightly pointed out that, in actuality, when compared to the overall DoT (Damage over Time) of your build and your party, the difference with any mod is slight. In particular, the difference between 20/20 sundering and Vampiric is negligible. For example, years ago when I argued this subject by showing actual damage results of 20/20 vs Vamp on targets in the Isle of the Nameless, I was told that the ~50 hits I used wasn't enough - if I wanted to prove it, I would need hundreds of data results. Well, hel-lo! If it takes hundreds of hits to show a difference, then the difference is negligible! Overall, my take on the various mods (strictly PvE) is: Poisonous/barbed/crippling/heavy/cruel - not really useful. The few times that extending a condition actually helps, is far outweighed by the extra damage you would do with sundering or vamp. Silencing - Most things that cause dazing are relatively short, so extending them can be beneficial, especially if your build is based upon daze/interrupt. Icy/ebon/fiery/shocking - only useful if your build is based around that particular type of damage. Furious - not worth the small increase in adrenaline when compared to other damage mods. Mostly only useful for things like an Imbagon where adrenaline production is more important than DPS. Zealous - not worth the degen unless you are actually hitting multiple targets, but it is worthwhile, for some classes, to carry a zealous weapon to switch to when needed. Vampiric - overall, not worth the hassle, but can be useful if you constantly switch weapons, and/or if you are actually hitting multiple targets. Sundering - default go-to mod if no other mod applies. Has basically the same DoT as Vampiric, without the bother. |
Solid_Gold
Not claiming anything here, only ever been a ranger since the game was released.
Used a vamp recurve bow for as long as I can remember.
Just because I can, I like it, and with close grouped mobs and splinter weapon I like to see all those numbers floating up.
I guess you should use the type of weapon and mods you "feel" works for you.
Used a vamp recurve bow for as long as I can remember.
Just because I can, I like it, and with close grouped mobs and splinter weapon I like to see all those numbers floating up.
I guess you should use the type of weapon and mods you "feel" works for you.
itiscurtains
For my own particular playstyle I find zealous mods to be most beneficial. More energy = more attack skills. I tend to think that the five energy generated from a zealous mod over the course of five hits (well, 5 energy minus 1/3 energy per second) is often put to better use than the 15 lifesteal I would have gotten from a vampiric mod. It's been a while since I played a WoTA sin though, and as I recall that particular build already has monster e-management.
Bandwagon
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Mostly, it's "leet-ism". Somebody did some calculations way back when and determined that Vamp had the most DPS (Damage Per Second). But, as Swahnee so rightly pointed out, they were basically "theoretical" calculations and have little to do with actual game play, especially in PvE. However, it became a sign of your "leet" status to spout this nonsense, so a lot of people do. Some will even go to the ridiculous extreme of saying things like "Sundering sux".
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Elitism =/= math crunching. Learn your internet memes. Your over-generalization of someone's motivation to prove someone wrong when evidence is available to support the claim does not help the OP answer his question.
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| For example, years ago when I argued this subject by showing actual damage results of 20/20 vs Vamp on targets in the Isle of the Nameless, I was told that the ~50 hits I used wasn't enough - if I wanted to prove it, I would need hundreds of data results. Well, hel-lo! If it takes hundreds of hits to show a difference, then the difference is negligible! |
So sundering grants 4.8 damage on average every 5 swings (it won't always be that amount, since this is statistics at this point, but as you keep striking the target, the number of times it activates will approach 20%).
Vampiric adds 15 damage every 5 swings.
15 > 4.8 (average)
end of discussion, Vamp is better if you want absolute max DPS.
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Overall, my take on the various mods (strictly PvE) is:
............ Sundering - default go-to mod if no other mod applies. Has basically the same DoT as Vampiric, without the bother. |
This is actually untrue for martial weapons. Vamp is #1 by a large margin. If your PvE-ing its no biggie, but if your PvPing and you have full access to all the mods, you might as well aim to be the most effective.
Any Assassin player that swears by Zealous as the go to mod is silly; use Vampiric when energy is groovy, swap to zealous when its getting low. If your using Wota / Crit Eye / 13 Crit Strikes or any combination of the two, you won't need zealous 1/2 the time anyway.
Xsiriss
Sundering is relatively useless to lower base damage weps like daggers and swords (but to be honest who even uses swords anymore),vampiric is hands down the better option in these cases. It is the standard weapon mode to use though,if you're lazy and don't want to bother with 'special effects'.
Vampiric is generally better as hitting multiple targets=decent health gain, it's a constant effect (not chance) and it's effects ignores armour anyway.
Vampiric is generally better as hitting multiple targets=decent health gain, it's a constant effect (not chance) and it's effects ignores armour anyway.
lemming
Vampiric actually gets even better than Sundering in PvE as monster level and armor increases.
afmart
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Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny
I keep seeing recommendations to use Vampiric mods in the various PvE forums.
I've read that, numerically speaking, Vampiric weapons do more damage because of the life drain. However, my own experience with Vampiric weapons (that being on an Assassin), have been less than stellar. Enemies die so fast that the self-drain actually has more impact than taking health from them, even spamming dagger attacks as quickly as possible. So I end up charging in with my Vamp daggers, killing everything in sight, then having to switch to non-Vamp daggers before my health gets too low. Using non-Vamp daggers renders the EXACT same result, without having to worry about my own weapons killing me. In 90% of situations, I've ended a fight thinking "Why didn't I just use my non-Vamp daggers and save myself the trouble?" So what's the big deal with Vampiric weapons? |
im not realy sure but i think that even if your attacks get blocked the vampiric still does that damage to the target.
usually people use vampiric mods with aoe builds (100b, splinter barrage, etc) and have another set when not in combat. for sins my favorite mod is zealous with a IAS skill
Outerworld
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Originally Posted by afmart
im not realy sure but i think that even if your attacks get blocked the vampiric still does that damage to the target.
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Owik Gall
I had thought of vampiric mods to be over-rated. However, it does depend on your playstyle (and how you can tolerate switching weapon sets often.) The damage difference with either Vamp or Sund is too slight for me to care for. I'd just find the best mod that will benefit your build. Like myself, I keep Furious because my build focuses on adrenaline building to pull off its tactic. Just think to yourself if your build will need it, or if you can use something different that will complement your build better than Vamp.
kedde
It should never be a discussion unless your build somehow needs zealous to sustain.
The degen gets healed up by AI and partyheals and is therefore completely insignificant and out of the equation. What remains is the fact that the extra 3 armor ignoring damage per hit is the highest additional DPS you can get from any mod.
The degen gets healed up by AI and partyheals and is therefore completely insignificant and out of the equation. What remains is the fact that the extra 3 armor ignoring damage per hit is the highest additional DPS you can get from any mod.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Outerworld
Claiming one thing is better than another is elitist now eh?
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The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form.
And this is my last word on the subject - I say to the OP and anyone else following this thread - do your own tests, make up your own mind, do whatever floats your boat.
Bandwagon
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc. Sometimes Vamp has the edge, sometimes Sundering has the edge.
The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form. And this is my last word on the subject - I say to the OP and anyone else following this thread - do your own tests, make up your own mind, do whatever floats your boat. |
lemming
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc. Sometimes Vamp has the edge, sometimes Sundering has the edge.
The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form. And this is my last word on the subject - I say to the OP and anyone else following this thread - do your own tests, make up your own mind, do whatever floats your boat. |
Outerworld
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Originally Posted by Quaker
The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form.
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Chrisworld
If you really think about it, Vamp increases your "DPS" by a little bit. The degen on your end is trivial.
Sundering is a chance mod, vamp is all the time.
Sundering is a chance mod, vamp is all the time.
chuckles79
When playing my para, I run around with a furious spear most of the time and for a quick first attack if I have no adrenaline, but then switch to vamp for the fight. The difference is negiligible over single attacks, but that little bit of extra damage adds up over 10 or more attacks.
Swingline
The 3-5 life steal takes care of the -1 pip of hp regen and you should always be hitting something when a vamp modded weapon is equipped. Its also constant armor ignoring damage.
Sciros Darkblade
Do you lose time switching weapons? If so, how much? Is it around 1 attack's worth? Against short encounters that may negate the advantage of a weapon change if it nets you less than 30-40 dmg...
If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.
If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.
Quaker
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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade
If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.
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iridescentfyre
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Originally Posted by Quaker
Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc.
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Using daggers as an example, as that was the OP's weapon of choice, that 20% armor penetration is applying only to the 7-17 base damage, resulting in a very small increase in damage versus a high damage weapon like a scythe or hammer [where Vampiric is still preferred, but at least its closer].
Daggers strike fast, occasionally dual strike for two hits at once, and generally rely disproportionately on armor-ignoring bonus damage to actually kill anything since they are balanced by such low base damage. They are the textbook case where Vampiric is vastly, unarguably better than Sundering.
As for switching out of battle, why bother? -1 health degen is very negligible; all it takes is a 5e heal from my hero, which the AI is quite happy to cast automatically, every few minutes.
Kunder
The only weapon mod that actually has a large effect on battle is Zealous. If you don't need Zealous, Vampiric is then the one that increases damage the most (ignoring special elemental resistance vs elemental mods or condition boosters).
Sundering is anywhere from about 1/2 to 1/5th as effective as vampiric in outputting damage, depending on weapon used and enemy armor level. There are exactly zero situations in which sundering is better since the derv update (which drastically nerfed scythe base weapon damage and boosters), other than for the prospect of putting the mod on a weapon to make idiots pay more for it.
Sundering is anywhere from about 1/2 to 1/5th as effective as vampiric in outputting damage, depending on weapon used and enemy armor level. There are exactly zero situations in which sundering is better since the derv update (which drastically nerfed scythe base weapon damage and boosters), other than for the prospect of putting the mod on a weapon to make idiots pay more for it.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Shady Guy
Reading the wiki pages on armor, damage calculation and sundering I get the impression that a sundering mod's 20% armor reduction (when it hits) will count for the entire damage done by a single blow, not just the base 15-22 or 9-41 say the weapon does without enchantments and similar. (please correct me if I am mistaken, it does changes things quite a bit for this)
This being so, if you have buffed yourself to do 50 damage with a particular strike against a 100 armor foe, if you were to hit with a sundering mod you would then have reduced their armor by 20, increasing your damage 50% or to 75 damage. The vamp may do 55, but it would do so consistently, so if we assume for ease of calculation that the 20% or 1/5 chance on sundering mod is accurate in the long run, we divide 25 by 5 and get the exact same dps. (clearly I remembered incorrectly when I said 20 earlier, but I haven't found much need to worry about this in game) So for any strike of a hammer, scythe, or bow against a 100 armor foe, if you are doing more than 50 damage on average you would choose sundering, for less than that vamp does more, and one can run similar calculations to find the figures for other weapons and other armored foes. I would say this clearly makes vamp in most builds better, as over 50 damage is not typical, but it does mean that there are at least a few situations where sundering does have better dps. Less useful to know since the asuran scan change, but the claims that sundering was never better were bothering me, unless I have overlooked something in how these work. |
e.g. for scythe
9-41 base damage
+15% mod
+20% customization
(I'm not entirely sure where cracked armor applies in the equation, I think its before sundering which is good vs 60-80 AL but bad for higher AL)
Sundering applies here
+damage from everything else I can think of here, all of it armor ignoring
Very, very few things will boost your base damage other than politely requesting your opponent remove their armor. Furthermore, even though one would think that %armor penetration would scale better with higher armor, it actually gets worse. -16 armor on 80 armor is actually a lot better vs -32 armor on 160 armor because the 160 armor character takes 1/4th the damage in the first place. So even if you are hitting 50 base damage on average per strike, since most enemies in high end PvE (and PvP for that matter) have boosted AL often of at least 80 if not 120 armor, you actually need to hit around 100ish base damage for sundering to start catching up with vampiric.
Reason it was useful before the derv update was because the damage equation on the pre-update skills looked like this:
9-41 (scythe sin crits for 58...)
+15% mod
+20% customization
+75% Aura of Holy Might (+41% against things like warriors with +armor vs phys but not holy)
+75% Asuran Scan
(note this is all stacking multiplicatively, looking at a max of nearly +500% damage against warriors)
Sundering bonus goes here.
20% chance of an extra 100ish damage per strike made sundering useful
Swahnee
Quote:
| Reading the wiki pages on armor, damage calculation and sundering I get the impression that a sundering mod's 20% armor reduction (when it hits) will count for the entire damage done by a single blow, not just the base 15-22 or 9-41 say the weapon does without enchantments and similar. (please correct me if I am mistaken, it does changes things quite a bit for this) |
ED = [([RD × DScale × AE] + DShift) × DMult] + DNeg
Armor penetration's effect is inside AE, while the +damage from attack skills is inside DShift, so AE affects only base damage (RD) with damage scaler (% mods, like customization).
However, some time ago i was posting inside a thread on gladiator's, asking if the sundering mod was maybe better in a spike situation (we were talking about a warrior in PvP, not an assassin in PvE, just to clarify), because if you got lucky you could produce a better spike thanks to the 20% triggering. So the idea was to use a vamp mod while doing pressure (autoattacks in frenzy), and switch to a sund just before unloading the full spike or the micro-spike. The answer, if i remember correctly, was that in theory it could work, but often people choose to spike with vamp too, not to be bothered with changing weapon continuously..however, i don't remember well that discussion, it's likely that i'm forgetting something..
iridescentfyre
I think its also useful to point out here, if your daggers are hitting for 7-17 on a 60 AL target, you're going to hit for 3.5-8.5 on a 100 AL target (0.5x). Then let's say your Sundering mod kicks in, your base damage becomes something like 4.8-11.8 instead (~0.7x). On average that's only a few points more damage, and only happens 20% of the time. Compare to 3 lifestealing--every hit--sometimes twice if you dual strike.
That's how I understand it anyway
That's how I understand it anyway
Sciros Darkblade
In a way superior runes are like uber vampiric, constant -75 hp for skill buffs, which may mean a good bit more dmg output. How do the folks that heavily favor vampiric mods feel about superior runes? I personally wear one almost all the time because I'm aggro that way, but I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.
Outerworld
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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade
In a way superior runes are like uber vampiric, constant -75 hp for skill buffs, which may mean a good bit more dmg output. How do the folks that heavily favor vampiric mods feel about superior runes? I personally wear one almost all the time because I'm aggro that way, but I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.
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Quaker
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Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade
... I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.
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One determining factor is the difference in effectiveness of the skills used in your build when going from 15 to 16 (or +1) in the relevant attribute. If the difference is small (and it usually is), the health loss may not be worth it. It also helps to check the "break points" in skills where the effects go in discrete steps.
Much of the damage/degen/whatever is done these days by PvE-only skills that rely on titles instead of attributes.
And, of course, like so many things, it depends upon you team make-up, the effectiveness of your healers, and the overall DoT of the group, and, most important of all, what floats your boat.
channel098
Using a vamp mod, daggers deal slashing damage (physical damage) except for some that do piercing damage.
So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod.
If your target has +armor versus elemental, avoid elemental mods.
This applies in Pvp versus other players, so it may not apply in Pve versus monsters.
So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod.
If your target has +armor versus elemental, avoid elemental mods.
This applies in Pvp versus other players, so it may not apply in Pve versus monsters.
iridescentfyre
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Originally Posted by channel098
So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod.
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If you're trying to suggest that Sundering gets stronger (versus Vampiric) against high-armor targets, this thread already established that it doesn't. Your base damage goes down to nothing against high armor. A buff to nothing is still basically nothing.