Ok, so as the title says I have come up with a very very simple solution to people getting 17 - 45 minute runs in what is supposed to be one of the hardest areas in the game.
To start off, I am a FoWSCer myself, so don't tell me that it's an outside opinion and that I don't care about that area of the game or whatever. I usually run VoS, so I am well aware of the roles around the main team, although I'm fairly familiar with T1 and T2 (although I never play those roles).
The biggest problem with FoWSC at the moment is probably the fact that the current meta does things SO quickly (you're AVAERAGE pug run goes from 25 - 45 minutes) that it means the amount of money made is just crazy, which means inflation, which means new players can't buy stuff, which means that less people play and the community dies more, this you all know.
Now onto my solution;
Currently what is causing these insanely fast times is Terraway and the fact that the main team can literally spike down about 30 foes in 1 - 5 seconds. The cause of this is enchantments. Everything about Terraway has enchantments at it's core. Let's take a look;
UA: You're monk. They use an upkeep enchantment as it's elite skill. It is used to res people fast, thus decreasing the time of a run when compared to bringing say Rebirth or something
VoS: The half of core build (VoS, Sand Shards, Staggering Force) is enchantments.
100b: No needed enchants here.
MoP: Same applies to 100b
EoE: Same as above
Now you have your main tank and terras...
Shadow form, this whole skill is what makes UW and FoW so easy. Enemies can't cast on you and you have damage reduction. Now I'm not going to say to nerf the skill, because in most areas, it's not too bad.
Now, here is the solution:
Order of Apostasy
Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds). These party members remove one enchantment when they deal physical damage. Removal cost: for each Monk enchantment, you lose 25...17...15% maximum Health.
All we need to do to break the main team or at least slow it down is to add this skill onto shadow beasts and remove their other skill.
Then we just need to add a few more of them in the other mobs and add a necromancer to the skeletal groups with this skill. This SHOULD slow down the meta, maybe even break it down.
It's as simple as that. The problem is not SF itself, but the fact that nothing COUNTERS it effectively.
What do you think?
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A Simple Solution To The Current FoWSC Meta
Mexay
Elnino
Looks more like a band-aid solution that's not really gonna fix anything.
Chthon
How about implementing the correct fix for all of the SC BS plaguing GW -- nerf shadow form?
KZaske
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Originally Posted by Chthon
How about implementing the correct fix for all of the SC BS plaguing GW -- nerf shadow form?
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Lithril Ashwalker
lol nerf it again?!?!, might as well take it out , its never nerfed enough for yall,
on the fowsc i say add Menzies. were long overdue for him anyway since Dhuum
on the fowsc i say add Menzies. were long overdue for him anyway since Dhuum
Olle
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mexay
Ok, so as the title says I have come up with a very very simple solution to people getting 17 - 45 minute runs in what is supposed to be one of the hardest areas in the game.
To start off, I am a FoWSCer myself, so don't tell me that it's an outside opinion and that I don't care about that area of the game or whatever. I usually run VoS, so I am well aware of the roles around the main team, although I'm fairly familiar with T1 and T2 (although I never play those roles). The biggest problem with FoWSC at the moment is probably the fact that the current meta does things SO quickly (you're AVAERAGE pug run goes from 25 - 45 minutes) that it means the amount of money made is just crazy, which means inflation, which means new players can't buy stuff, which means that less people play and the community dies more, this you all know. I thought that more shards/items= cheaper prices..but oh well.. Now onto my solution; Currently what is causing these insanely fast times is Terraway and the fact that the main team can literally spike down about 30 foes in 1 - 5 seconds. The cause of this is enchantments. Everything about Terraway has enchantments at it's core. Let's take a look; You are mixing up UW-Terraway and FoW-Manlyway. UA: You're monk. They use an upkeep enchantment as it's elite skill. It is used to res people fast, thus decreasing the time of a run when compared to bringing say Rebirth or something VoS: The half of core build (VoS, Sand Shards, Staggering Force) is enchantments. 100b: No needed enchants here. MoP: Same applies to 100b EoE: Same as above What i can see is 2 roles needing an enchantment, which one of them can be switched out, and the other one is because it resses. Now you have your main tank and terras... Shadow form, this whole skill is what makes UW and FoW so easy. Enemies can't cast on you and you have damage reduction. Now I'm not going to say to nerf the skill, because in most areas, it's not too bad. OMG SF needs a nerf? i never knew. oh wait, he didnt want sf to be nerfed.. Now, here is the solution: Order of Apostasy Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds). These party members remove one enchantment when they deal physical damage. Removal cost: for each Monk enchantment, you lose 25...17...15% maximum Health. All we need to do to break the main team or at least slow it down is to add this skill onto shadow beasts and remove their other skill. Then we just need to add a few more of them in the other mobs and add a necromancer to the skeletal groups with this skill. This SHOULD slow down the meta, maybe even break it down. It's as simple as that. The problem is not SF itself, but the fact that nothing COUNTERS it effectively. What do you think? ---------- |
First of, i am not flaming you.
But tbh, FoWsc doesnt need a nerf, FoW needs a buff!
Menzies, where is he? we got Dhuum, give us Menzies!
new foes, add in something like the skeleton, but a shadow beast instead(he could have remove enchants, but imo, it could turn out OP.)
Good post, though it doesnt solve FoWsc.
If anything is to be nerfed its the 17 min Zraw guild runs,because gems>shards.
KingCrab
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Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker
on the fowsc i say add Menzies. were long overdue for him anyway since Dhuum
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I'm not entirely sure a fix is needed though, as tons of cash can be made farming ectos solo, or in DoA with fast DwG builds, or in other ways as well.
Missing HB
The only thing dhuum and skeletons did in UW was making it harder for normal teams however... it's not like it did anything for SC teams...
Besides, what's breaking everything is the conset combined with shadow form...But i'm pretty sure that people would still be ble to achieve stuff with no SF but with all bonus....You know as me OOA won't do anything on the long run
Besides, what's breaking everything is the conset combined with shadow form...But i'm pretty sure that people would still be ble to achieve stuff with no SF but with all bonus....You know as me OOA won't do anything on the long run
halfies
im not sure why fowsc needs fixing tbh. ''fixing'' fow and not sf just means it would be a much harder step up for anyone wanting to get into SCing. also, i feel fairly certain that you could do this with no sf in ~40 mins with a decent team
also, fowsc doesnt make you that much money, compared to any other SC. even a failed uw as a a terra can net you more than a finished Fow quite easily. and any retard can get into fow easily, since with 200bs/VoS they can both be a little retarded and still spike, and the same goes for mop, ua and eoe. terras are a little harder but still by far the easiest SF sin roles in any SC
also, fowsc doesnt make you that much money, compared to any other SC. even a failed uw as a a terra can net you more than a finished Fow quite easily. and any retard can get into fow easily, since with 200bs/VoS they can both be a little retarded and still spike, and the same goes for mop, ua and eoe. terras are a little harder but still by far the easiest SF sin roles in any SC
Millenium Warriorr
Remove SF from the game...all happy.
Spiritz
First time i ever seen a sc`er complain about sc`s.
I think im actually starting to tire of all the moans about shadowform - its been this way since the sf change which was funny - for a short while all the haters laughed then suddenly they saw it changed and then restarted to hate.
Why is it they always shout "nerf it , nerf it " ?
Because a number of players abuse certain skills the rest who use it properly get penalised.
Anet years ago made several changes to uw and why not like a few others suggested - change some skills on the foes or add something that will hinder sf users and other enchant users.
Uw like i said had many changes but i cant really think of any changes made to fow.
Why not add some nightmares with aoe removal but put in a group(s) who popup randomly - a bit like some of the bosses in shiverpeaks , give them all enchant strip and each group multiple possible spawn points.
OR set it so an enviromental affect that comes into play or put a timer or something that err - only 1 conset can be used in xx time but when players split they lose the conset boosts.
Sad thing is we can all come up with ideas which may work but we know they get inplemented for many reasons.
I think im actually starting to tire of all the moans about shadowform - its been this way since the sf change which was funny - for a short while all the haters laughed then suddenly they saw it changed and then restarted to hate.
Why is it they always shout "nerf it , nerf it " ?
Because a number of players abuse certain skills the rest who use it properly get penalised.
Anet years ago made several changes to uw and why not like a few others suggested - change some skills on the foes or add something that will hinder sf users and other enchant users.
Uw like i said had many changes but i cant really think of any changes made to fow.
Why not add some nightmares with aoe removal but put in a group(s) who popup randomly - a bit like some of the bosses in shiverpeaks , give them all enchant strip and each group multiple possible spawn points.
OR set it so an enviromental affect that comes into play or put a timer or something that err - only 1 conset can be used in xx time but when players split they lose the conset boosts.
Sad thing is we can all come up with ideas which may work but we know they get inplemented for many reasons.
loshon
No one uses physical on sub 17 runs. This means that the only people you're hurting are the ones who pug FoW and do Manlyway, which are responsible for the majority of FoW farming. Anyone who does sub 17 runs uses Mesway / DWGway / Arcway.
inb4 trolls, I'm not saying you can't do sub 17 minute runs using physway, I'm just saying that no one does.
inb4 trolls, I'm not saying you can't do sub 17 minute runs using physway, I'm just saying that no one does.
JONO51
Every single time more shit is put in to counter sf all it does is slow sf by a few mins and make it harder for balanced teams. Nerfing sf & cons is the only way to end this issue but when the majority are farming with it to get shit... yeah good luck with that. most of the "classic" players left long ago. And btw, FoW isn't all that long to complete, you can hero it with a few sets in not much over an hour so a human group with pve skills and p-cons will hit it in ~45 mins, its not that long of an area.
halfies
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Originally Posted by loshon
No one uses physical on sub 17 runs. This means that the only people you're hurting are the ones who pug FoW and do Manlyway, which are responsible for the majority of FoW farming. Anyone who does sub 17 runs uses Mesway / DWGway / Arcway.
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Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Olle
First of, i am not flaming you.
But tbh, FoWsc doesnt need a nerf, FoW needs a buff! Menzies, where is he? we got Dhuum, give us Menzies! new foes, add in something like the skeleton, but a shadow beast instead(he could have remove enchants, but imo, it could turn out OP.) Good post, though it doesnt solve FoWsc. If anything is to be nerfed its the 17 min Zraw guild runs,because gems>shards. |
If you're talking 17min FoW, 17 min FoW is shit. I don't FoW a lot myself, because I don't care for the area, because the money it gives is pathetic, but I know from my other guildies that anything above 15min is shit.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
If you're talking 17min FoW, 17 min FoW is shit. I don't FoW a lot myself, because I don't care for the area, because the money it gives is pathetic, but I know from my other guildies that anything above 15min is shit.
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Things should have been done in the past really to avoid getting those kind of plays today... now well, it's a bit too late in my opinion anyway
Bright Star Shine
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Originally Posted by Missing HB
Such a mentality is what ruined PvE( don't take this as an offense.. i gotta say i myself play for the reward too these days and cba anymore to do areas in 1 hours)...
Things should have been done in the past really to avoid getting those kind of plays today... now well, it's a bit too late in my opinion anyway |
There will always be people that do areas as fast as possible. If SF would never have been buffed all those years ago, people would probably have found ways to do it in like 25mins. That would have been the SC standard, which would make the PUG standard like 45-1h+. But since we got to do the areas at the speed we do it now ,of course we don't want it to be changed. It's Anet's fault of enabling us to get those times in the first place.
Lithril Ashwalker
you could nerf SF and someone would make another way to keep it up, give up the on SF nerf, there are more than 2 mill payers in the game and around 20 game devs...im sure 2 mill can "out think" the dev team; thats why they NERF constantly.
so stop B!%&!ing about SF just to feel like you contributed to the thread. the main issue at hand is Fowsc and the speed anyone can clear it.
if SF nerfed, monks/rangers/warriors etc couldn't use it for what they do now. then ud see a RISE in certain material prices which oh so got farmed for your LIL conset.
every "nerf" has a consequence and reiteration about certain skill nerfs aren't the issue
so, end of story-USE IT AND ABUSE IT AND GO WITH THE FLOW OR STFU
so stop B!%&!ing about SF just to feel like you contributed to the thread. the main issue at hand is Fowsc and the speed anyone can clear it.
if SF nerfed, monks/rangers/warriors etc couldn't use it for what they do now. then ud see a RISE in certain material prices which oh so got farmed for your LIL conset.
every "nerf" has a consequence and reiteration about certain skill nerfs aren't the issue
so, end of story-USE IT AND ABUSE IT AND GO WITH THE FLOW OR STFU
Tripolityx
Make Terra 1 to kill more Menzies cause every single T1 dies at Menzies. Problem solved. 10hour T1 at least. Thank you.
Swingline
remove spell immunity from the game please
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Missing HB
The only thing dhuum and skeletons did in UW was making it harder for normal teams however... it's not like it did anything for SC teams...
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Lanier
I agree that the way to fix the SCing problem is to nerf what is being used to SC as opposed to buffing the FoW. All the UW update did was make the UW tougher for normal groups - it is still SCable at a fairly fast pace. Rather than doing something like this to the FoW, cons should be nerfed, spell immunity should be toned down, and I would also argue that splinter and MoP should be changed so that there is a "limit" on how many times they can activate within a given time period.
Bright Star Shine
Lol, all the QQing about UW is so annoying... FoW is meant to be an elite area, and it's just laughable. You can clear it in about 1h if you want, with Heroes, in HM. It should be made harder imo, because what was hard back in '05 isn't anymore now. Powercreep says hi.
PurpleFission
What FoW needs is an epic battle with Menzies.
WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by Swingline
remove spell immunity from the game please
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To target specifically FoWSC, add Menzies, yes, and give him a skill, with any skill type other than spell, that removes enchantments.
On a similar note, in UW, make Judgment of Dhuum remove one enchantment with each damage pulse.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth
Don't remove it, just make it unmaintainable. Basically, with how much spell protection is abused, why do the foes have spells on their skill bars anyway?
To target specifically FoWSC, add Menzies, yes, and give him a skill, with any skill type other than spell, that removes enchantments. On a similar note, in UW, make Judgment of Dhuum remove one enchantment with each damage pulse. |
Curo
Menzies, Menzies, Menzies!
WarcryOfTruth
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Originally Posted by Swingline
Spell immunity is a broken mechanic. Put it in a rocket and shoot it strait into the sun.
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PurpleFission
If spell immunity is removed totally from the game, a lot of people would quit. People quitting means less people buying things from the cash shop, and probably people not buying gw2.
Anyways, gw is 6 years old, changing anything that drastic really wouldn't be a brilliant idea.
Anyways, gw is 6 years old, changing anything that drastic really wouldn't be a brilliant idea.
Elnino
Menzies would be nice but an unconditional enchantment removal won't be enough I think. I'm sure there are ways around that. Just nerfing the problem skills would be much easier though.
Anet has never cared about their playerbase. Period. Sometimes I think that's a good thing.
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Originally Posted by PurpleFission
If spell immunity is removed totally from the game, a lot of people would quit. People quitting means less people buying things from the cash shop, and probably people not buying gw2.
Anyways, gw is 6 years old, changing anything that drastic really wouldn't be a brilliant idea. |
Maria The Princess
why would you want to remove the reason 70% of the population plays for?
Cuilan
You have no clue what the Guild Wars population does. Being in an alliance or two that have similar interest to you doesn't give you much to go by.
MithranArkanere
70% of the active population is filling their HoMs, and not everyone does it by farming and buying the stuff as you may think.
An Elite area should be something people get together to do a few times per week to have foon and get nice drops, because it's hard and takes some time, not to repeat constantly and mechanically until it becomes meaningless and all that matters is the loot.
Skills like mist form and shadow form are already in GW2.
Of course, they are what they should have been in GW1: Downed skills, meant to survive so allies can revive you instead just being defeated right away.
Like that they work as they should: Survival.
But when they are available as normal skills, they get overused for excessively effective farming.
That's to be fixed, sooner or later.
An Elite area should be something people get together to do a few times per week to have foon and get nice drops, because it's hard and takes some time, not to repeat constantly and mechanically until it becomes meaningless and all that matters is the loot.
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Originally Posted by PurpleFission
If spell immunity is removed totally from the game, a lot of people would quit. People quitting means less people buying things from the cash shop, and probably people not buying gw2.
Anyways, gw is 6 years old, changing anything that drastic really wouldn't be a brilliant idea. |
Of course, they are what they should have been in GW1: Downed skills, meant to survive so allies can revive you instead just being defeated right away.
Like that they work as they should: Survival.
But when they are available as normal skills, they get overused for excessively effective farming.
That's to be fixed, sooner or later.
Maria The Princess
come to TOA and look in party matching and white chat if you dont believe me.
Anyone can still make balanced groups with no SF tanks and SC builds and play their hearth out
Anyone who is intersted in FOW is there, rest of the people dont seem so. If there will be a change the uninterested ones will do it once or twice and go back to do whatever they like doing.
edit in: those SC groups are driving the price of ectos and shards down so people who are not so much into this can at least consider getting Obby armor
They also drive the price of cons (materials) up so casual gamers who play with no cons can make more money out of getting materials and con sets
Everybody profits.
Anyone can still make balanced groups with no SF tanks and SC builds and play their hearth out
Anyone who is intersted in FOW is there, rest of the people dont seem so. If there will be a change the uninterested ones will do it once or twice and go back to do whatever they like doing.
edit in: those SC groups are driving the price of ectos and shards down so people who are not so much into this can at least consider getting Obby armor
They also drive the price of cons (materials) up so casual gamers who play with no cons can make more money out of getting materials and con sets
Everybody profits.
Horus Moonlight
Damn, never knew 70% of GW's population was in ToA. The more you know...
I find it funny how often the issue of balance is side-stepped with excuses of people quitting or how much "good" the skill/mechanic/glitch/bug/issue in question does for the economy. Oh yes, won't someone please think of the children.
I find it funny how often the issue of balance is side-stepped with excuses of people quitting or how much "good" the skill/mechanic/glitch/bug/issue in question does for the economy. Oh yes, won't someone please think of the children.
Maria The Princess
there's no need to split hairs on posts, we both know exactly what i am saying, and if you don't you should read my post again and think of it.
Horus Moonlight
Splitting hairs? Try again deary.
MithranArkanere
It's not splitting hairs.
Everyone who is interested imn ToA, or certain WiK quests, or Vanquishes around there would be there, logically, WHEN they are interested in ToA, or certain WiK quests, or Vanquishes around there.
That doesn't mean that anyone interested in ToA won't be anywhere else some other time, or that everyone that is there is interested in ToA.
That would be flawed logic.
And ToA is a pretty empty outpost compared with the most crowed ones. That's far for 70% of the population, no matter how you look at it.
Everyone who is interested imn ToA, or certain WiK quests, or Vanquishes around there would be there, logically, WHEN they are interested in ToA, or certain WiK quests, or Vanquishes around there.
That doesn't mean that anyone interested in ToA won't be anywhere else some other time, or that everyone that is there is interested in ToA.
That would be flawed logic.
And ToA is a pretty empty outpost compared with the most crowed ones. That's far for 70% of the population, no matter how you look at it.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by PurpleFission
Anyways, gw is 6 years old, changing anything that drastic really wouldn't be a brilliant idea.
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But can we really blame players for doing the only thing available :
- new content added ( people find it good/crap that's not the problem) is usually really short... Even EotN ( which was in 2008) was finished by many in one or two days...
- PvP is dead ( and considered as elitist area by many anyway...)
- after 5-6-xx years, many people achieved their r5-6 max title
Considering those 3 points, what you want people to do....
chuckles79
TL;DR: make SF users not be able to deal dmg, make spells cast against it again.
What I want to know, is why ANet, and the Live Team especially, has made such a mess of SF.
What they should have done in the beginning, and could still do now for all I care is reinstitute the old functionality where the enemies could drain their energy casting spells that failed, but keep the current ability to take damage from physical attacks
Then make SF end if you cause any damage.
That would shake up the SC meta, but still make SF part of SC teams. They would be a non-damage dealing tank.
I never had beef with the invulnerability aspect, just that they could be invulnerable and still cause damage (aka God Mode activated).
This would force more team play, more diversity, yet still make SF sins an integral part of end game teams.
What I want to know, is why ANet, and the Live Team especially, has made such a mess of SF.
What they should have done in the beginning, and could still do now for all I care is reinstitute the old functionality where the enemies could drain their energy casting spells that failed, but keep the current ability to take damage from physical attacks
Then make SF end if you cause any damage.
That would shake up the SC meta, but still make SF part of SC teams. They would be a non-damage dealing tank.
I never had beef with the invulnerability aspect, just that they could be invulnerable and still cause damage (aka God Mode activated).
This would force more team play, more diversity, yet still make SF sins an integral part of end game teams.