What do you think about Paragons?

boricuaguy

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2007

W/R

19 Sep 2011 at 19:15 - 1
The reason why I am asking this is because many people bash Paragons as being boring and just using one build only, which is Imbagon. They also state that they are weak and need rebalanced. When in reality there are a whole bunch of skills that help the team greatly. My concern is, that since GW came out, many people chose the role of being a lone wolf. They just like to play alone, farm, and not work as a team. Damage for me its not all, because if you have a lot of damage and very little armor then you are a glass cannon. If you have too much defense and little damage input then you are considered a tank. It is always good to play as a team, because it is more rewarding.


I know there are many more builds out there than the ones provided by PVX Wikia but many players do not choose to post them or let them being known. Nowadays I don't see many Paragons in outposts, groups, pvp. Why is that?

Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe.

That is my 2 cents on how i see GW has evolved and my reason for why i think people don't like Paragons. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character?

Thank you for reading and hope hear from you all soon .

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

19 Sep 2011 at 20:00 - 2
Paragon is a very fun play style that has been plagued with mistreatment and balance issues since release. It has incredible potential, and aren't even that difficult to tweak to a more usable state these days, but it never seems to get done.

They still have uses as hero builds as they probably have the best condition ridding skill in the game (Song of Purification), but for the most part, Players are boned :/

Venganza

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2011

Fire

19 Sep 2011 at 20:17 - 3
Sure a Paragon can effectively only do one thing, as damage dealers they are useless compared to other classes.

Having said that, I can rampage through any HM area or dungeon without taking damage or having a hero die, whereas with human pug teams, we often struggle or party wipe, so.... boring? Perhaps, but I rather enjoy doing things like CoF in 30mins without needing to think, pull or micro... c-space, c-space... rather relaxing

wilebill

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

19 Sep 2011 at 21:05 - 4
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Sandbox good stuff

I run a semi Imbagon mostly because I am lazy. Great character but leveling can be a royal pain and you need a high value of Luxon/Kurzick to really make it all work well. Least my build you do.

That being said, real damage output of the Paragon itself is low. A side by side comparison vanquishing the Morostav trail sometime back with Paragon and Ranger Beast Master revealed that both worked about equally well until it came time to take down Sunreach Warmaker and company. The Ranger did this hardly noticing. The Paragon got an F in the course. Just not enough damage output from the Paragon. Sunreach ate his lunch.

So, yes I like my Paragon. He is good for some tasks, stinks at others. I believe that the reason you see so few Paragons is that they are hard to level and until you get the right of skills, sort of wimp and weak. Unless you use highly creative builds like those in the reference above and most of us most of the time are too pig stupid to think of them.

_Aphotic_

_Aphotic_

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2010

Muppets Versus Muppets [MvM]

P/A

19 Sep 2011 at 21:07 - 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post
The reason why I am asking this is because many people bash Paragons as being boring and just using one build only, which is Imbagon. They also state that they are weak and need rebalanced. When in reality there are a whole bunch of skills that help the team greatly.
This is true. The fact that people are just failing to utilize or realize the potential of the paragon's other skills are only self-faults that they cannot get over being imba (it's so much easier though...). OFC, there are those who've never discovered imba (who don't PvX ), and have no idea about it......

Quote: Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post I know there are many more builds out there than the ones provided by PVX Wikia but many players do not choose to post them or let them being known. Nowadays I don't see many Paragons in outposts, groups, pvp. Why is that? I see plenty around. Including myself.

Quote: Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post
Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe. huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post
What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character? -I can mindlessly clear every area in the game without thinking about tactics when I need to. Yes. Every area.
-I can still experiment around and have fun when I want to :P
-8xParagons are practically invincible.
-It suits my playstyle. Shout spam and spear mashing.
-None of my friends play their paragon much. Helps when you really need an imba if your friends are bad players.

boricuaguy

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2007

W/R

19 Sep 2011 at 21:32 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post
Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe What i meant to say was that now that we can use 7 heroes instead of 3 like it used to be before, it makes it even easier for people to play alone and not worry about PUGs. Dont' know if that kinda makes sense Aphotic :P.

BTW thank you for your response. It is really helpful.

Quaker

Quaker

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Brothers Disgruntled

19 Sep 2011 at 21:55 - 7
People who say that the only good build for a Paragon is an Imbagon, generally fall into one or more of a few groups.
1. Those who play GW like it's an FPS/console game. For them, everything has to be 'optimal'. The idea of playing something for fun escapes them.
2. Those who only use pre-packaged PvX builds and can't or won't think outside the box.
3. Those who are always in a hurry to finish things asap.

I have characters of all classes. They each have their good and bad points. While Paragon is not one of my favourites, it was/is still fun occasionally. (I just finished doing some Factions missions in HM - to complete a book - using a not-especially-good spearchucker build and 7 heroes/mercs.)

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

19 Sep 2011 at 22:24 - 8
They're a ranged attacker (no SoH) with a limited attack skill-set, no AoE capabilities at all, not particularly high damage output and almost all of their non-attack skills do bugger all. They also have limited viability with the PvE skill set; it's SY, TNTF and nothing else.

Still, he can carry the mismatched crap that forms PUGs so that's worth something.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

20 Sep 2011 at 02:16 - 9
They are a support class with far more crappy support skills than good ones. This is their primary problem. I couldn't care less about a paragon's damage output - I just wish that there were more viable support builds than what there are. I'm not even talking about optimal support builds - paragons simply don't have many viable support builds either.

Their main problem is that beyond TnTF, Go for the eyes, anthem of envy, and maybe anthem of weariness or flame if you want those conditions, there simply arn't any good support skills available to paragons. I know that SyG is used by heroes sometimes, but it does have a condition and is completely outclassed by SY (probably by "watch yourselfs" also). Fall back doesn't really count since its not a skill used in battle. Those that are good (the ones previously mentioned) are also way limited by conditions, needing to be activated with an attack skill or an attack, etc (exception: TnTF - this is the one truly great paragon support skill).

Song of Purification and Flesh of my flesh round out the paragon's support options, but with no other good motivation skills to go with either of these elites, an effective build can't really be formed around them.

So yea, thats the main problem with paragons. They are a support class with only 4-6 good support skills.

Now don't get me wrong, I still use paragon beastmasters, and defensive anthem paragons, and motivation paragons, and searing flames paragons, and scythe/sword/axe/hammer/dagger/bow paragon builds, but i don't delude myself into thinking they are any good.

drowze

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

SaGa

N/

20 Sep 2011 at 02:16 - 10
I like my para a lot (my second main), and I hate to say it, but what Xenos pointed out, is true. For that reason I am still hoping for a para update Give them a little more damage with their spears, and some way to do aoe damage (an attack that hits 3 foes for 7 adrenaline or something, anything ><).
As for pve-skills... SY, TNTF are indeed stapled to my bar, but depending on the team the battle standards of honor and wisdom can be useful; I find spear of fury nice as well. Or boost your own dmg with I am the strongest or your own survivability with IAU.

Anyway, using a para and para heroes I am having a good time on my own (regular HM), paras have a spot in farming an endgame area (doa), and I can find a spot in pugs as well if I choose to join one (even though there seems to be a one-paragon-per-group-policy ><). So I guess paragons can't complain too much

PS: Still, some skill changes might be fun

Xsiriss

Xsiriss

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2008

20 Sep 2011 at 11:29 - 11
Paragons are quite fun to include in your team set up (not so much to play). Their style is very organic in that it they provide buffs that can keep the team going by them just playing (Aria of Zeal, Song of restoration etc.). As mentioned before they're just too weak to take into HM because of how badly implemented they are. Skills have crappy recharge times and fair lukewarm effects in comparison to other classes.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

P/

20 Sep 2011 at 17:07 - 12
Like any class, it has to fit your play style. I started out playing a ranger, so I found the switch to para very comfortable and actually an improvement. If I preferred melee players or casters, I'd probably hate the para.

Pros:
-It's easiest profession to roll NM and HM with 7 heroes with. The imbagon build keeps your caster heroes alive while they pump out the curses and conditions.

-Some shouts affect minions

-If you are playing with guildies who are running physical damage, they will love you. GftE and anthems are a ranger's best friends.

-The damage is not that bad. I use Spear of Fury in place of EBSoH, and with a high allegiance rank, it's not too shabby. With buffs seeing 60-120 dmg is not uncommon.

-You can usually find a place in daily Zaishen quests. It's like being a ritualist, in that a group usually wants only one, two at the most.

CONS

-Cannot do ANYTHING solo

-Worthless in 4 man areas, severe disadvantage. Minister Cho's in WoC seems impossible to me.(it's not, but it requires rethinking and revising.)

-The bridge/edge bug that ANET has NEVER fixed, where ranged attacks miss if someone stands on a bridge side or against certain walls.

-SC's are optimized for high dmg output, a offensive/defensive hybrid isn't high on anyone's list. Only DOA runs want a para, to physical buff the Glaivers suicide diving in.

-The long hoped for buff/nerf is not coming. For a long time it was stated that paras were next on the list for revisionist treatment after dervishes. Recent statements hint that this is not going to happen.

Note: This last one is just my private opinion, but I think that ANet regrets the paragon profession. Their focus for the longest time was on GvG, and effective paragons in PvE were impossible to manage in PvP. Alot of the decisions made seem to reflect this, even statements made by individuals at ANet reflect this.
I'd personally would love to see all the nerfed skills reverted for PvE, which would be as good as a buff, but such changes don't appear to be a priority.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

21 Sep 2011 at 01:43 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles79 View Post
Note: This last one is just my private opinion, but I think that ANet regrets the paragon profession. Their focus for the longest time was on GvG, and effective paragons in PvE were impossible to manage in PvP. Alot of the decisions made seem to reflect this, even statements made by individuals at ANet reflect this.
I'd personally would love to see all the nerfed skills reverted for PvE, which would be as good as a buff, but such changes don't appear to be a priority. They haven't made any indication that its not coming and anet tends to take ages to implement skill updates anyway.

iToasterHD

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

We Need Therapy [NOW]

Rt/

21 Sep 2011 at 16:09 - 14
They haven't explicitly stated that there will be no update, however they have announced that there will no longer be any major updates like that of the Dervish. Most people assume, then, that the Paragon will not be updated. At least, not appreciably so.

KotCR

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

[DVDF]

P/

21 Sep 2011 at 16:27 - 15
Yeah, but in a relatively recent post they said they have ideas about redesigning all the professions, and IIRC that they have some ideas about wanting to change the Paragon still...but that's it, just ideas. That sounds like they've not even started to work on something, which means that it will be a very very long time before we see any changes to the class if we ever do. Honestly though, I don't know why that have to make such a big thing of it...by just fixing/changing a dozen skills they could really help out Paragons of all types (Command, Motivation, Leadership, Spear), at least for the time being, until they can devote a proper amount of time to redesign the profession into something that really works. It would only be a band-aid, but it'd be appreciated all the same I'm sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles79
-The damage is not that bad. I use Spear of Fury in place of EBSoH, and with a high allegiance rank, it's not too shabby. With buffs seeing 60-120 dmg is not uncommon. Yeah, I do this too. You can get an epic ranged spike from a Paragon with a few skills.
With a good amount of points in command, using Find Their Weakness and Spear of Fury you can hit for 100+, apply a Deep Wound, and instantly fill up all your adrenaline skills to follow up with a finishing blow. The above spike takes most regular enemies to around the 50% HP mark as it is, and when under Anthem of Envy, in an EBSoH, and under the affects of an Order/Conjure/Brutal Weapon you can spike an enemy really friggin' hard by yourself...but unfourtunetly that's all it is, a spike. Recharge times prevent you from getting a high DPS but it's fun and can be handy to quickly take out a priority target all the same.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

21 Sep 2011 at 18:12 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by iToasterHD View Post
They haven't explicitly stated that there will be no update, however they have announced that there will no longer be any major updates like that of the Dervish. Most people assume, then, that the Paragon will not be updated. At least, not appreciably so. Anet said that they wouldn't do any more 9-month profession overhauls. Paragons don't need a 9-month profession overhaul. They need a normal skill update, similar to what the mesmers got in a 3-month time period.

cataphract

cataphract

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ashford Abbey

Hey Mallyx [icU]

Mo/Me

22 Sep 2011 at 08:24 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by boricuaguy View Post
What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character? The only reason I made a Paragon was my desire to have one character of each profession. Even though she was created three years ago she still hasn't finished NF. Because I find Paragons really boring to play. On top of that - most of their spears are just plain ugly and have no business flying. Besides, I worry about Nadia developing tennis elbow so I rarely play her.

iToasterHD

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

We Need Therapy [NOW]

Rt/

27 Sep 2011 at 13:21 - 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by cataphract View Post
Besides, I worry about Nadia developing tennis elbow so I rarely play her. I'm glad you brought that up. Lateral epicondylitis (or tennis elbow) is a growing epidemic among paragons and is not getting the media attention necessary to spread awareness.

Please, talk to your Paragons today about preventative measures:
Take frequent breaks.
Stay in shape.
Like other sports, use equipment appropriate towards your ability, body size and muscular strength (maybe you should reconsider using that Voltaic Spear).

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

27 Sep 2011 at 13:38 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles79 View Post
Like any class, it has to fit your play style. I started out playing a ranger, so I found the switch to para very comfortable and actually an improvement. If I preferred melee players or casters, I'd probably hate the para. This is what made me delete my Paragon. My main is a Warrior anyways.

I seriously don't get Anets attempt at this class other than they forgot to put spears in the game and they needed to come up with a new class for NF. The Paragon is plagued with horrible game design and some people just refuse to see it. Compare the Paragons damage capabilities to other damage dealers and tell me there's no problem. Same can be said for its support capabilities outside PvE only skills and SYG. The entire motivation line needs to be looked at(anet said it will be) and a few spear/command/leadership skills. When Anet does take a look at motivation I am hoping they make it the 3rd healing class in the game.

P.S. Why is there no shield with leadership req?

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

28 Sep 2011 at 17:38 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
This is what made me delete my Paragon. My main is a Warrior anyways.

I seriously don't get Anets attempt at this class other than they forgot to put spears in the game and they needed to come up with a new class for NF. The Paragon is plagued with horrible game design and some people just refuse to see it. Compare the Paragons damage capabilities to other damage dealers and tell me there's no problem. Same can be said for its support capabilities outside PvE only skills and SYG. The entire motivation line needs to be looked at(anet said it will be) and a few spear/command/leadership skills. When Anet does take a look at motivation I am hoping they make it the 3rd healing class in the game.

P.S. Why is there no shield with leadership req? 1)Paragons are not and were never meant to be heavy damage dealers. They were meant to deal more weapon damage than casters can, but focus on team buffing. I will forever disagree with people saying that Paragons need AoE and more damage capabilities, because that draws the focus of what they're meant to be and their unique style. I will agree though that said unique style suffers incredibly because of the motivation line, and some command. Spear mastery could take a looking to as well, but not in the terms of AoE, or heavy damage. It draws down to a few fundamental flaws (PvE talkin. I've not the expertise to comment on PvP Paras).

-Too many useless are specific skills. Paragons and Dervishes have the least amount of skills available to them so they HAVE TO COUNT. Lyric of Purification/Zeal is staple proof of this. No one is going to bring those expecting a reliable trigger on them. Same goes, to a lesser but still noticeable extent, those that trigger on spells/attack skills. (Ideally I would actually like
-Purifying Finale, Energizing Finale and Finale of Restoration are great skills that lack a reliable trigger of such skills. This synergy can easily be turned into a paragon's version of a boonprot with one of the many useless ELITE skills in the game (looking at you, "It's just a flesh wound!")
-Too many IMS skills. Dervish had the same issue. for PvE you could use one IMS skill MAYBE, and believe me guys, Fall Back has it covered. the rest can be reworked into more useful alternatives.

Other problems?

Chants are TOO BRAINDEAD TO BE USED PROPERLY. Here's something I questioned one day. How exactly can one hear someone chanting amidst a battle of metal clangs and explosions at the same distance one can hear someone shouting?

-Why not reduce the AoE of Chants? Then we could tweak the recharge of said skills along with their power and not have to worry so much about them being too powerful because we'd have to pay attention to who we are effecting with them. I'm not talking Adjacent here. Perhaps "In the Area".
-consider HoT for motivation. Anet was, and assumingly still is worried about giving a heavily armored class powerful healing, and Healing over Time in GW is used more in a prot aspect than a healing one. Making paragons the king of AoEHoT would be an interesting step.

Leadership is also wonky. I have no suggestion on how to fix it, but they suffer FAR too much in 4 man areas, and arguable are too effective in 8 man areas.
I feel it should be noted that although Paragons tend to operate better with other paragons, I don't see this as a problem. In fact working a full/near full paragon team it's probably the most fun you can do with a paragon right now. If possibly I would love that ability, and skills that make it possible preserved :P

Spear Mastery could use going over with a comb. Spear of Fury is an example of a good skill that synergizes with what paragons do, and it's sadly the only spear attack that does this. I'd love to see more spear attacks that passively reward the paragon on doing things with shouts/chants/echos/ect. Like a simple "Deal +20 damage, your next chant casts 1 second faster" or something. Most paragons only take two or three spear skills, and they always feel like simple damage fodder, which is unfortunate.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

P/

07 Oct 2011 at 00:05 - 21
If you need to really know what's wrong with the para, go down the skill lists for every attribute except spear mastery.

You'll see a PvP/PvE split for every single skill, and that's not counting the nerfs that happened before splits and were never reverted for PvE.

Here's a quick opinion on what paras need.

Command: a lot of useless skills, but a lot of good ones and I don't think it needs a major rework. Command line Elites are worthless though (except Incoming for Poragon builds)
Good Skills: GftE, Fall Back, Make Haste, Find Their Weakness, Stand Your Ground

Leadership: It's not a horrible attribute, but when considered that its' the para-primary attribute it kinda stinks in the skills department. You can argue that Many professions experience the same phenomenon, but compared to it's NF bretheren, the Dervish, people wouldn't put many points into it if it wasn't for the energy and IAS.
Good Skills: Focused Anger, Soldier's Fury, Aggressive Refrain, Spear Swipe, Angelic Bond (needs buffing but good for PvP)

Spear Mastery: Pretty lame for an offensive att. line. The skills that actually do good damage have 2s-3s cast times. The best spear attack is PvE only and the rest are so conditional that you need a team of lawyers to decide if it takes effect or not. Also only 2 elites in this line, making it the most gimped offensive attribute in the game by far.
Good Skills: Spear of Fury (allegiance/PvE), barbed Spear, Cruel Spear, Stunning Strike.

Motivation: Completely and utterly hosed. Never revisited after being repeatedly nerf-raped prior to PvE/PvP split. Healing amounts are small and have ridiculous trigger conditions. Loaded with signet supporting Lyrics that no one will ever use, and there is no argument that justifies putting this on a team.
Good skills: Song of Purification....that's it

Non-linked skills: ANet all but admitted this skill sucks for paras by making it unlinked so that necros can use it. A physical player's skill that triggers on a spell...brilliant.

If this philosophy were applied in a future updates, you'd see Smiting monks with adrenal skills.

jewfrokid

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2011

Canada

Sweet Misty Fire [SMF]

P/W

08 Oct 2011 at 04:41 - 22
My paragon is my baby, she's the leader of the pack. And Shepherd of her flock. My paragon allows her whole team to take on the demonic masses of the Deep. She's conqueror of Underworld and Fissure of Woe. She the Protector of Elona, Tyria and Canthan. That's what I think of my Paragon.

KotCR

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

[DVDF]

P/

11 Oct 2011 at 15:35 - 23
@chuckles79

You pretty much got it covered, though I'd add "Never Surrender" to the list of good Command skills (at least the PvE version), as it's basically a simple and efficient way to ignore Bleed/Poison/Disease etc on everyone, which can be handy.

I'd remove Angelic Bond from the list of good Leadership skills also. The old version was good, but the current version sucks. It's a poor man's Divine Intervention, that takes up an elite slot and heals for less - @12 attribute Divine Intervention is 197 + 38DF Bonus, Angellic Bond is a measely 164 with no Energy return as it isn't a Shout or Chant (and remember once it works on somebody it ends on everybody - if it actually healed all them too when it ended if it just stopped one person from dying it'd actually be worthy of it's elite slot, but as it is it isn't even close). The length of Divine Intervention can also be extended if you do plan to pre-cast it, whereas with Angellic Bond it's stuck at 10 seconds. It would sub okay for Divine Intervention I guess, if it wasn't for the cast time, but there's that too which is what ultimately totally kills it.

If you try and save somebody with it when their HP gets low, it won't cast in time due to the 1 sec casting time. And if you pre-cast it you'll probably waste it. A competant Monk could easily target the guy who was about to die and cast the 1/4 cast Divine Intervention on him in less time than it takes to cast Angellic Bond, and the fact Divine Intervention is an enchantment doesn't really matter as the correct way to use it is to cast it on somebody who is about to die (or on somebody whom you can read a imminent spike on) for a big heal instead, meaning it'll use it's charge up before your opponent gets a chance to remove it anyway.

Plus, in many forms of PvP (anything that's not 8 man, really) Divine Favour is a far more useful primary attribute to have alot of points allocated into than Leadership anyway. And the Monks other lines make better support than the Paragon's other lines too (especially when it comes to PvP becuase of how further gimped so many Paragon skills are there). Assuming the Paragon is using Aggressive Refrain (and you should be if not using Soldier's Fury because without the extra adrenaline from it you really are alot less efficient), a Monk could also be better armoured too (+15 from Disciples Insignia as opposed to the +10 from Centurions), and in PvP both classes will be carrying a Shield they can use anyway (+15AL for the Monk most likely, and +16 for the Paragon, resulting in a total a net bonus of +4 more AL for the Monk).

Moving on, is anybody else kinda miffed that it sounds like Anet will be working on a Elementalist update sooner than a Paragon update? We've patiently been waiting the longest and need it more than a class which is already very flexible (in an effective way) and very powerful, even if it can't DPS aswell as it should in HM (guess what, neither can a Paragon, but the Paragon has alot more problems than just that - unlike an Elementalist). At this rate we'll probably never see a Paragon update come to the light of day.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

11 Oct 2011 at 16:28 - 24
I think you guys underestimate cheap 3-4 adrenaline attacks like Spear of Redemption/Holy Spear; plus Blazing Spear, the 25% armor penetration on Spear of Lightning. The problem is GFTE spam cuts into adrenaline and spears don't have any 33% IAS without elites.

I think Motivation is rather terrible unless you abuse GFTE!/The Power is Yours! shout spam with Energizing Finale/Finale of Restoration. Song of Restoration/Ballad of Restoration are okay to use but don't make a bar (plus random nature compared to Protective was Kaolai+Life). Aria of zeal, Aria of Restoration don't affect physicals. Zealous Anthem doesn't affect spellcasters. Most conditions except Daze can be dealt with Foul Feast or straight party healing, so Song of Purification is overkill.

Command has GFTE! (use with hammer,scythe,axe users in team; spear, bow too), Anthem of Envy (sometimes), Stand your Ground!, Fall back! going for it.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

11 Oct 2011 at 17:33 - 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion View Post
Command has GFTE! (use with hammer,scythe,axe users in team; spear, bow too), Anthem of Envy (sometimes), Stand your Ground!, Fall back! going for it. The problem with those is,it's incredibly easy on any team to take dual GFTE/FB and a copy of SYG which makes playing a paragon primary or taking one,somewhat meaningless.

Would (if there was to be a para update) it maybe make sense to gently nudge FB/SYG/GFTE off secondaries and back onto primary paragons. I'm not quite sure how I would consider a total rework of Command but maybe (since most secondaries would be 12/10/8 or 12/9/9 split) reworking effectiveness to require 10command for the effect of 8 currently. It would either force a sacrificial points split or bring back reliance on primary paragons.

It may also be a terrible idea lol

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

13 Oct 2011 at 04:01 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood View Post
The problem with those is,it's incredibly easy on any team to take dual GFTE/FB and a copy of SYG which makes playing a paragon primary or taking one,somewhat meaningless.

Would (if there was to be a para update) it maybe make sense to gently nudge FB/SYG/GFTE off secondaries and back onto primary paragons. I'm not quite sure how I would consider a total rework of Command but maybe (since most secondaries would be 12/10/8 or 12/9/9 split) reworking effectiveness to require 10command for the effect of 8 currently. It would either force a sacrificial points split or bring back reliance on primary paragons.

It may also be a terrible idea lol Other than Rangers, Dervs, and Warriors... who else can pump out GFTE? Assassins don't really benefit from base damage, they just get +2 or +3 energy and critical agility/critical defenses reapplied. I wouldn't put GFTE! on a ranger or Derv when I can use "SY!"... but that's just the state of the game. The PVE skill balance is so out of wack.

FB!/SYG you can slap on necro although I noticed Jeydra putting it on an Invoke ele (which is tight on energy to begin with unless you use Glyph on top of just AoR+Attune).

As for what to do with Paragons, I think for starters:
* make their party support more primary-based: nerf "SY!" armor, buff TNTF recharge
* remove -20 armor from Soldier's Fury (I can see the penalty on Aggressive Refrain because it's non-elite and is stupid easy to keep up 100%)
* make motivation chants have 0 aftercast so you can build adrenaline autoattacking
* make "Find their weakness!" 5 energy
* have "Make Your Time!" suck less (See "To the Limit!" , Enraging Charge)
* fix chorus skills so they don't get abused in multiple paragon teams but are more useful in general (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...of_Restoration ; http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...rgizing_Chorus)
* make lyric skills less niche (there's a bunch of things I suggested in the past http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...ll_suggestions)
* and a bunch of other things other people long suggested on wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb.../Paragon_Focus

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

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13 Oct 2011 at 05:52 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion View Post
Other than Rangers, Dervs, and Warriors... who else can pump out GFTE? Assassins don't really benefit from base damage, they just get +2 or +3 energy and critical agility/critical defenses reapplied. I wouldn't put GFTE! on a ranger or Derv when I can use "SY!"... but that's just the state of the game. The PVE skill balance is so out of wack.

FB!/SYG you can slap on necro although I noticed Jeydra putting it on an Invoke ele (which is tight on energy to begin with unless you use Glyph on top of just AoR+Attune). Thats the problem,gfte can be ran on 3 other physicals just as well as a paragon. Requirement of paras is again nullified with the ease of placing syg and fb on basically any other bar in the team.Its too easy to have paragon skill benefits without a paragon.

Khomet Si Netjer

Khomet Si Netjer

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

The Angelic Guard

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13 Oct 2011 at 12:08 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood View Post
Thats the problem,gfte can be ran on 3 other physicals just as well as a paragon. Requirement of paras is again nullified with the ease of placing syg and fb on basically any other bar in the team.Its too easy to have paragon skill benefits without a paragon. I agree, but I think the key problem is that there are only a few paragon skills worth taking, and they are all in the same attribute (command) and usable without great investment, so as you pointed out it is very easy to put these on a secondary paragon while still taking advantage of skills from the primary profession. Instead of changing attribute scaling to make these skills less desirable or unusable for secondary paragons I would suggest making the other paragon skills worth using, especially those in Leadership that no one else can use effectively... if skills like Defensive Anthem and Angelic Bond were actually elite-worthy instead of being poor copies of Monk skills then people might be inclined to bring a primary paragon to take advantage of those skills. Many paragon builds use elites from a secondary profession because the paragon elites are just not that great. Anet should have fixed this years ago.... :-\

Aside from Defensive Anthem and Angelic Bond already mentioned, I name Burning Refrain, They're On Fire, Hexbreaker Aria and Make Your Time as the kind of skills that should be on almost everyone's bar, because they are useful in almost every situation... but because these skills are poorly balanced and/or too conditional they rarely see any use. Most of the paragon skillset suffers from this problem.

I have a very long list of suggestions for changes to paragon skills, many of the suggestions come from people on gwguru. I have given up hope for any paragon update though.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

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Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

13 Oct 2011 at 14:21 - 29
If the concern is just 3 skills I think that is bad. Paragon leadership skills should be buffed then we can worry about GFTE/FB!/SYG!.

GFTE isn't all that powerful on its own, especially when at low spec. When you put it on a Paragon it's typically for energy management (criticals in hard mode don't do as much as Anthem of Envy, which is why I would like chants to have 0 aftercast).

Quote:
Shout. For 10 seconds, the next time each ally within earshot makes an attack, that attack has an additional 30...86...100% chance to critical. (4 adrenaline)
could be
Quote:
Shout. For 3 seconds plus an additional second per 2 ranks in leadership, the next time each ally within earshot makes an attack, that attack has an additional 30...86...100% chance to critical. (4 adrenaline)
or
Quote: Shout. For 10 seconds, the next time each ally within earshot makes an attack, that attack has an additional 30...86...100% chance to critical. (50% failure chance with Leadership 4 or less.) . (4 adrenaline) How to fix "Fall Back"? Quote: For 4...9...10 seconds, all allies within earshot gain 5...13...15 Health per second while moving and move 33% faster. "Fall Back!" ends on an ally affected by this shout when that ally successfully hits with an attack. (10e, 20r) Quote: For 4...9...10 seconds, all allies within earshot gain 5...13...15 Health per second while moving and move 15% faster and an additional 2% per rank in leadership. "Fall Back!" ends on an ally affected by this shout when that ally successfully hits with an attack. (10e, 20r) ...so with 8-9 leadership it is current functionality?

SYG
Quote:
For 5...17...20 seconds, all party members within earshot receive +24 armor when not moving. (10e, 20r) can be
Quote:
For 5...17...20 seconds, all party members within earshot receive +15 armor and an additional +1 armor per rank in leadership when not moving. (10e, 20r) 9 leadership puts it at current functionality

Simply put, in order for SYG on players to be relevant, you need to nerf "SY!" to reasonable numbers like +30 or at most +40-60. The pvx page for imbagons says it best:
Quote:
The +100 AL of "Save Yourselves!" provides a damage reduction of 82.3%. That means dropping SY! is equal to an increase of 565% in damage taken. Right now, you can wear 0 armor and have as much armor as a warrior with Sentinel Insignias.

Little buff to Signet of Aggression by moving to leadership would help motigons:
You gain 2...3...3 adrenaline if you are under the effects of a shout or chant.(Leadership)

The issue I have is none of these partywide skills require any thinking to use, which is why you slap them on heroes that are braindead because it's almost impossible to mess up. (Funny thing is they stack "fall back!" sometimes) Rewarding skills that have targeting is probably better ("Brace Yourself!", "Find Their Weakness!", "Make Haste!", Angelic Protection, Inspirational Speech , Signet of synergy, and to a lesser extent the Refrains+Finales) but Leadership energy return sucks with those. "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" is sad because you see it on N/P (or not at all, due to Foul Feast).

It's like the difference between today's meta Heal Party/SoS/Protective was Kaolai spam and Word of Healing hybrids with prots. Do we really want more mindless button mashing? Because that's what most of motivation is; command is more or less the same.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

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13 Oct 2011 at 15:03 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion View Post
If the concern is just 3 skills I think that is bad. Paragon leadership skills should be buffed then we can worry about GFTE/FB!/SYG!.

GFTE isn't all that powerful on its own, especially when at low spec. When you put it on a Paragon it's typically for energy management (criticals in hard mode don't do as much as Anthem of Envy, which is why I would like chants to have 0 aftercast).


could be

or


How to fix "Fall Back"?

...so with 8-9 leadership it is current functionality?

SYG
can be
9 leadership puts it at current functionality

Simply put, in order for SYG on players to be relevant, you need to nerf "SY!" to reasonable numbers like +30 or at most +40-60. The pvx page for imbagons says it best:
Right now, you can wear 0 armor and have as much armor as a warrior with Sentinel Insignias.

Little buff to Signet of Aggression by moving to leadership would help motigons:
You gain 2...3...3 adrenaline if you are under the effects of a shout or chant.(Leadership)

The issue I have is none of these partywide skills require any thinking to use, which is why you slap them on heroes that are braindead because it's almost impossible to mess up. (Funny thing is they stack "fall back!" sometimes) Rewarding skills that have targeting is probably better ("Brace Yourself!", "Find Their Weakness!", "Make Haste!", Angelic Protection, Inspirational Speech , Signet of synergy, and to a lesser extent the Refrains+Finales) but Leadership energy return sucks with those. "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" is sad because you see it on N/P (or not at all, due to Foul Feast).

It's like the difference between today's meta Heal Party/SoS/Protective was Kaolai spam and Word of Healing hybrids with prots. Do we really want more mindless button mashing? Because that's what most of motivation is; command is more or less the same. Don't get me wrong,I'm aware of the need for a leadership overhaul,3 skills stood out in a post that's all. Your suggested changes make a lot of sense,failure chance on GFTE is a nice touch.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

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18 Oct 2011 at 00:49 - 31
I think you are not going to see a paragon buff/nerf because it would take an entire rework/re-imagining like the dervish had.

The major gripes for the class are as follows: imbagon only meta class build, only one needed on PuGs, and not welcome in many speed clears (DoASC and Deep are exceptions)

The problem is it's a broken concept from minute one. It has 80 AR, but must immediately take a -20 on armor to be effective at all. Also as an 80AR, it has no tanking skills or skills to make itself tougher in a fight.
It can spam shouts all day long, which cannot be stripped, making it impossible to balance in PvP so they just made it worthless.
It has crappy DPS and crappy healing.
So from minute one it's excluded from the Tank-Spank-Heal holy trinity.
If you remove PvE only skills you are left with GftE and SyG...which as Calista pointed out, can be ran on any character willing to spec into command.

I enjoy playing imbagon because it's mindless. I can run in with 7H and only the hardest areas present a challenge. However I miss playing with others and would like to be able to fill more than one role

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

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Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

18 Oct 2011 at 01:06 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles79 View Post
I think you are not going to see a paragon buff/nerf because it would take an entire rework/re-imagining like the dervish had.

The major gripes for the class are as follows: imbagon only meta class build, only one needed on PuGs, and not welcome in many speed clears (DoASC and Deep are exceptions)

The problem is it's a broken concept from minute one. It has 80 AR, but must immediately take a -20 on armor to be effective at all. Also as an 80AR, it has no tanking skills or skills to make itself tougher in a fight.
It can spam shouts all day long, which cannot be stripped, making it impossible to balance in PvP so they just made it worthless.
It has crappy DPS and crappy healing.
So from minute one it's excluded from the Tank-Spank-Heal holy trinity.
If you remove PvE only skills you are left with GftE and SyG...which as Calista pointed out, can be ran on any character willing to spec into command.

I enjoy playing imbagon because it's mindless. I can run in with 7H and only the hardest areas present a challenge. However I miss playing with others and would like to be able to fill more than one role Originally they didn't have -20 armor.... it was cracked armor application every time Aggressive Refrain applied.

I don't see why a few selective changes couldn't be made. It's not like the entire class has to be changed one-by-one like the flash enchantments were. For example: removing aftercast on chants or the little links to leadership on those few skills from above.

Spear at 12 does more raw DPS (before skills) than bows, daggers, or swords. It's the 25% IAS (Aggressive Refrain) vs 33% (Soldier's Fury/Soldier's Stance/Frenzy/Flail) that makes the difference.

Re: multi-paragon teams. You wouldn't want 2 leaders in a group.

Defensive Anthem+ "Stand Your Ground!" + I am unstoppable work pretty well as a "tanking" role. The problem is you can't use attack skills (and Save Yourselves makes this look bad... which is why SY! needs to be nerfed to reasonable +40 or +60 for Paragons to see more use), but can use "Find their weakness!" or chants.

Lanier

Lanier

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18 Oct 2011 at 04:49 - 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer View Post
I have given up hope for any paragon update though. err, why? In recent history, anet has always taken a lot of time working on skill updates. Its stupid - I agree (would rather recieve small updates of like 10 skills every month as opposed to many skills being updated every 9 months). Still, i'm sure it'll happen eventually, and anet has eluded to an eventual paragon skill update. I believe it was mentioned in a thread in riverside.

chuckles79

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2009

FILA

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18 Oct 2011 at 18:51 - 34
It was all the talk until the Live Team changed members again.
I will agree that elementalists are as in dire need of reworking, but what's with rangers before paras?

You have to look at the thinking at ANet for the clues, especially where they are going with GW2 since that's supposed to be the result of all the lessons learned.
The Guardian class replaces paragons, smite-prot hybrid monks.

Protting has always been the weak sister of monking, smiting was dead until RoJ, and paragons are probably the most hated class for the Live Team when it comes times for updates.

I realized this last Halloween, when in the costume brawl they gave necros Ulcerous Lungs. It's saying "don't bring your paras to pvp, they are not wanted here".


I can't complain too much though, I have had fun playing my para and I'm just my skill hunter titles away from Rich Mahogany.

Vanquishing everything was pretty easy and I usually don't have a problem getting into PUGs.

I just would like to see a new theme for the paragons, because the mechanics are just screwed up. More conditional attacks and shouts than you can shake a VS at; worthless healing att. and the only worthwhile skills in the primary att. are involved with raising adrenaline.

As soon as I finish all the warrior elites I'm going to play Khomet's burning barrage build and have some fun there. Not to mention the GftE and Keen Arrow synergy.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

18 Oct 2011 at 20:11 - 35
I disagree with your assessment of prot. Up until WoH buff/LoD and patient spirit was added, Boon prot /Blessed Light+gift protters were more popular than Healing prayers among monk players who were better than heal other/orison spam. Zealous Benediction invalidates Jamei's Gaze/Heal Other. Prot Spirit/Aegis/SoA is still used in conjunction with healing bars.

Let's look at Healing prayers:
* Word of Healing : the gold standard. 203+DF @14 Healing when the condition is met, 94+DF if not.
* Dwayna's Kiss is fueled by Protective Spirit/Seed of Life as well. The only enchantments you could really run from Healing Prayers are Vigorous spirit or Healing Seed.
* Healing Burst has an AoE heal and is on par with Zealous Benediction but is cheaper.
* Patient Spirit is crap when you have 2 heal monks. Why? Because of overheal. [email protected] Heal ; 171 under Healer's Boon
* Healing Whisper is half range. Ethereal Light pushes ~100, under healer's Boon ~150. That's why I prefer Healing Burst.
* Healing Ribbon costs 10, so unless you're running triple melee or triple midline that doesn't spread out against AoE, you don't benefit so much (compared to Healing Burst). The same problem occurs with Healing Seed.
* Healing Touch is Touch range.
* Words of Comfort is better than Orison in condition heavy places. It heals for 100 in those cases without maluses.
* Light of Deliverance has been nerfed to lame recharge. You're better off with Divine Healing + Healing Burst.
* Signet of Rejuvenation only exists as energy management.

Looking at prot:
* Gift of Health means you won't be using Healing Prayers often. So it warrants a divine/smiter's boon/prot bar. Gift @10 = 105, which is more than Orison under HB.
* Dismiss Condition under UA heals for 80-90, which is close to 90% of Orison under UA. The difference is you need enchantments
* Protective Spirit makes healing in hard mode possible when lacking Shelter or "Save Yourselves!" It also gets better with Death Penalty. Try healing someone with 40-60 DP in Hard mode is like playing Whack-a-mole. Works even with prot as low as 4-6.
* Spirit Bond has more application to PvP, but against damage that isn't stupidly high (130+) it has more effectiveness than Protective Spirit.
* Aegis is 50% damage reduction partywide, and stops adrenaline gain. Only requires ~9 prot.
* Shield of Absorption makes damage packets manageable. 5 mobs on one person? SoA him. The hits turn to 0.
* Shielding Hands sees less use due to Seed of Life.
* Zealous Benediction heals for enough to be a heal, but with another monk in the team that has heals, it will be energy intensive.
* Boon Signet makes Protection Prayers heal for 80 (no DF), which is similar to Orison.
* Reversal of Fortune/Life Sheath is hard to get working at maximum effectiveness, it acts as a proactive element similar to Divine Intervention.
* Guardian is more situational than Aegis since you need to watch the field more. Only requires ~8 prot.
* Mend ailment deals with condition stacks better than Healing prayers. It's sort of like Dwayna's Kiss for conditions.
* Draw conditions: died with Foul feast buff and its nerf. Still used in PvP to clean blind/cripple/weakness though (and to take conditions off RC monk).
* Life Barrier/Life Bond+Balthazar's Spirit: died with "Save Yourselves!"
* Shield Guardian: nerfed to oblivion 10...34...40 is less than Divine Healing...
* Shield of Deflection: See Aegis/Guardian ; Save Yourselves killed it; energy cost too high for PvE.
* Reverse Hex: if this were 5 energy it's be Cure Hex's prot equivalent
* Divert Hexes: too situational
Prot is not as necessary in PvE other than Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorption/Shielding Hands, Aegis because Spirits, minions create extra targets, Save Yourselves negates most of its use. Seed of Life stands in for Shielding Hands, as a prot that effectively reduces ~20-32 damage per hit.

In 4 man, WoH is king simply because a 5 energy heal outdoes protting against 3 players (a spike tops out around 110x3=330). Against 5+ offense (GvG) you can't hope to WoH (203+DF). Infuse Health, Spirit Bond, and/or disruption is necessary. Aura of Faith saw use against Invoke spike. Aura of Stability is necessary to prevent KD but in PvE it doesn't matter as much.

Theoretical bars for "healing" with prot:
12+1+1 Prot
8+1 Heal
10+1 DF
1 Zealous Benediction (+170)
2 Gift of Health (+96)/Reversal of Fortune (up to +76, which is =a 152 heal)
3 Dismiss Condition (+71)
4 SoA
5 Seed of Life
6 Protective Spirit
7 Selfless Spirit / Glyph of Lesser Energy
8 Aegis

12+1+1 Divine Favor
9+1 Prot
9+1 Heal

1 Blessed Light (+131)
2 Gift of Health (+105)
3 Dismiss condition (+55)
4 SoA
5 Seed of Life
6 Protective Spirit
7 Selfless Spirit / Glyph of Lesser Energy
8 Aegis

12+1+1 Divine Favor
9+1 Prot
9+1 Heal

1 Boon Signet (+76 x2 , no DF bonus)
2 Gift of Health (+105)
3 Dismiss condition (+55)
4 SoA
5 Seed of Life
6 Protective Spirit
7 Selfless Spirit / Glyph of Lesser Energy
8 Aegis

We see a noticable lack of party heals when going into Prot instead of Healing Burst or UA + divine Healing/heaven's delight but much more damage mitigation. Also hexes are only dealt with by Cure hex/deny hexes/remove hex/holy veil. In areas where conditions are heavy, stuff in prot excels (see RC/mend ailment).
Without UA/HB, Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight heal about as much as Heal Party/Light of Deliverance.

Lanier

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18 Oct 2011 at 22:20 - 36
Completely off topic in relation to paragons... but my favorite monk bar for like 3 years now has been a prot-based hybrid (one that can provide heals while still having the powerful prots).

Zealous benediction
gift of health
reversal of fortune (could be seed of life)
shield of absorption (could be seed)
Prot spirit
Aegis
Dismiss Condition
Glyph of Lesser Energy/hex removal

Party heals always were lacking in prot bars (with the exception of UA prots) but that was never a really big deal to me.

Our Virus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2011

The Capital [Para]

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29 Oct 2011 at 05:55 - 37
Tbh, I enjoy playing paragon because 97% of the players thinks they suck. Imho, they do suck. Badly. But they are the best class (to me). Its just more fun playing with a challenge, and since paragons are bad at almost everything, it rocks. I don't want there to be a paragon update, because then everyone will use them like what happened to dervs. I like being the underdog.

Lanier

Lanier

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29 Oct 2011 at 14:19 - 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Our Virus View Post
Tbh, I enjoy playing paragon because 97% of the players thinks they suck. Imho, they do suck. Badly. But they are the best class (to me). Its just more fun playing with a challenge, and since paragons are bad at almost everything, it rocks. I don't want there to be a paragon update, because then everyone will use them like what happened to dervs. I like being the underdog. The dervish update hardly overpowered dervs (in PvE). I would say that the mesmer update and the old ritualist spirit update were poorly implimented, due to increasing power creep. So long as anet doesn't overpower paragons though, an update is much needed.

Believe it or not, I far enjoyed playing my rit before the spirit update than after it. Before the spirit update, all rit builds were relatively crappy, so there were a wide variety of builds that could be played. Now, rits are very similar to the paragon class in that there is one OP build that everyone expects you to play. This is what I hate most about paragons - I hate imbagon builds because they are so boring but I am always expected to play the imbagon build when pugging. My guildies are cool with me not playing imbagon in most situations, but even then, i feel like im gimping them. This has got to change - paragons need more useable builds/skills and the ability to abuse SY (by all professions, not just by paragons), needs to end.