Defining frontline and backline with heroes using flags?

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to learn hard mode with hero teams (since I've come back to the game a month ago I now find NM boring). I'm trying to set something up with my heroes like the guide linked below, but a good 3/4 times something happens, usually due to mishaps from the hero AI, that result in the melee mobs harrassing my casters:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ing-id1982.php

This is what I try to do right now - note that I play either Ranger or Ritualist and try to keep the enemy frontline just outside of my aggro circle as I attack at range (using the way recurve bow and spells can hit just outside the circle):Flag my 6 ranged heroes into a "safe" place (outside of any patrols) Flag my 1 Warrior tank hero into enemy mob The second I see skill activation reacting to my warrior hero, I flag the warrior JUST OUTSIDE the aggro circle of backline heroes What I'd like to happen is the melee mobs hack aimlessly at the tank while everyone else picks off the enemy mobs. However, I usually get the following outcomes:Tank hero kites an AOE like Firestorm, causing enemy melee to disengage and then engage my backline Tank hero runs 1/2 aggro circle away from his flag and dies due to being out of range of healing Ranged hero either kites errant AOE or feels like using skills on backline caster and aggros enemy melee I think in that last case the enemy mobs usually disengage because of being hit by repeated Wastrel / Esurge spam
I've already taken some measures to prevent my ranged heroes from getting close such as not equipping any touch or half-range spells.

Has anyone gotten the frontline / backline to work well (>75% of the time) with heroes? Would it work any better if I gave the tank hero a spear or wand? Note I'm not asking for any skill sets because I don't like copy-paste, but I'm open to high-level suggestions like things I can force the mobs to do to be more content with hitting my tank and not my backline.

Melee AI is just bad that you're better off:
- stacking prots on yourself and tank
or
- mobbing the aggro with minions and/or multiple melees* to bodyblock by numbers

*They'll still scatter under dotaoe, so it's not reliable when dealing with it unless you have sufficient damage to kill off enemies quick enough.

Get rid of your tank hero...they are aweful at it

like premium said stacking prots on yourself is much better

or you can use ebon sin as lead attack, which will also draw aggro onto itself thus acting as a tank for a brief period

Melee heroes are poor as others have said.

Having to micro any hero at all is irksome and should not be needed.

I take two healers, ST prot Rt, 1 MM and 3 mesmers, and I breeze through any HM content (dungeons too) without having to micro at all and almost never a hero death.

Flagging layers all works so dicey that I just don't. Razah can be very useful here, spamming protective spirits. Make sure he is recharged, he usually is, then just go open fire on them. Run out of AoE and run if AoE hits your party. That's about it. Most of the time it works.

OACkAmhp4SaD20694CnMTrpzcyB Razah Protective Spirit Spam

If you are running a Ranger consider carrying the Vampirism spirit along. Sunspear Title Track, you can get it from the hero trainer in Kamadan. At max Sunspear it is a level 14 spirit and does 20 life steal and 20 heal to you per hit, which over the course of a battle is a noticeable amount. An extra spirit helps out your N/Rit healer if you are using one. And it is an extra energy source for Razah.

Another thing you can do with your friendly spirit is flag your whole group back, move forward and drop Vampirism still out of aggro range. The use a Longbow, not a Recurve Bow, to fire one shot at the mob. As soon as the arrow leaves the bow, turn and run. Most of the time the mob will stop to kill Vampirism who will delay them a couple seconds. During which time your casters can do damage to them.

Most of the time in HM I run Beast Master. (screams of horror from the audience) But with Asuran Scan and Otyugh's Cry I don't miss and my white tiger doesn't either. Sure damage is less than a full on marksmanship spike, but it is consistent damage and that makes up for a lot. Be sure to set your pet to neutral before pulling of course.

There are good 7 hero party builds on pvxwiki, better than mine which is something I just threw together and tweaked over time. But doing it yourself you know how it works.

Oh, melee. Almost forgot. In addition to the pet I use Melonni Dervish with Avatar of Melandru. Look up Avatar of Melandru on wiki and you will see why.

OgGlUJpqasys4cd5vy31b2V7Sflu Melonni

Quote: Originally Posted by wilebill

Most of the time in HM I run Beast Master. (screams of horror from the audience) I don't scream. I do that. You can target the pet on something that's outside your aggro-bubble and draw some of the attention. They'll switch targets soon enough but by that time the fight is almost over.

Thanks for the replies!
I'll try running something else that doesn't depend on the heroes doing aggro control. (If only there were a "Don't hit him, hit me!" shout, although I'm sure that would be exploited like crazy by giving the skill to everyone and playing musical chairs with the mobs.)

@wilebill, Venganza
Thanks for the note about prot using Ritualists. I'm still gathering up Rit elites, so right now I'm stuck using monk prots which seem to just give mobs an excuse to deal >100 armor-ignoring damage (shatter enchantment).

Instead of using a warrior, use a Minion Master and/or Ranger w/pet for 'aggro' control.

Basically, if your 7-hero group includes an MM (not bomber) and an SoS Rit, that's all you need to give the enemy something to hit while you attack from range. And, you also don't then need to do much more than flag the entire party back and pull. The minions will rush in when the enemies get within range. (And you can micro the SoS to put up spirits before pulling.)

Oh, and put your frontline heroes at the top of the party list, and the backline/healers at the bottom. Their order in the list somewhat determines where they stand around the you and/or the flag. But, of course, if you do want to micro-flag the backline/healers, they have to be at the top of the party list.

Quote: Originally Posted by JEVillen Thanks for the replies!
I'll try running something else that doesn't depend on the heroes doing aggro control. (If only there were a "Don't hit him, hit me!" shout, although I'm sure that would be exploited like crazy by giving the skill to everyone and playing musical chairs with the mobs.) There is...it's "Save Yourselves!"] shout which is the Lux/Kurz alligence skill.

Quote:

Shout. For 4...6 seconds, all other party members gain +100 armor. This will cause aggro to fall onto the user of this skill and it is exploited.

Quote: Originally Posted by Essence Snow

This will cause aggro to fall onto the user of this skill and it is exploited. That sounds reasonable, but I don't find myself drawing particular aggro when using SY as an Imbagon.

Given that everyone else has +100AL I'd say that's a good thing.

Hmm... I never thought of Save Yourselves (SY) in that way. The mobs take AL modifications into account for aggro as well? I know for sure HP and default AL is how they normally "call" targets.

When I get back to playing the game I'll take a look at what mobs do if I put Shield of Regen or Resilient Weapon on their usual favourite target (my necros) and flag them to move when they've engaged.

It most definitely takes AL modifications into account. I'll tell ya it's a pita to hold aggro when I play an obs flesh tank. It usually works fine if I grab and hold aggro, but if I move around, and the AI kicks in to switch targets, I'll never get them back to me. And if I don't engage them before the rest of the team.. they never target me - even when my health is sitting at <400 due to runes. If I go without armor of earth it's significantly easier to hold aggro.

What they won't take into account is certain things like protective spirit, stoneflesh aura, spell immunity, and other miscellaneous things that are sometimes more valuable to know.