Item values - lowballers or overly optimistic sellers?

Having a low s/b gives you more exposure. The more people bid on your crap the more free bumps you get. The more bumps you get the better the chance of getting the right person at the right time.

Not everyone goes through Ventari's 24/7, 365 days. Getting the right buyer could often take weeks because that's how often certain individuals bother to go through this forum. If I'm not desperate for storage space I see no reason why it's unethical for me to take my time selling whatever I have.

I don't think it's unethical at all to want a premium price for your items, nor to be prepared to wait for that price.
But I do think it's unethical and a waste of everyone's time to list a ridiculously low starting bid that's nowhere near what you're willing to sell for.
Really, it's just abusing a loophole to circumvent ventari's corner rules on early bumping.

The way I see it, you want to sell your item for X amount, and let it take as long as it wants? fine. But don't list a ridiculously low starting bid for Y amount when you're not even going to contemplate selling it for less than X.

If someone is after something you're selling, they'll probably use the search function. To that end, actually write the item name in plain text instead of using images, and for %&*^'s sake spell the item name correctly so they can find it.

Here on Guru, I will only purchase items which have a buyout price listed. I refuse to keep posting bids on someone's item while they fart around deciding if it's high enough to sell yet, or in some cases, if they even wanna sell at all.
This sort of crap is why I migrated fully to GWA as soon as I found it. Starting bid IS the reserve, set amount of time until auction end, if you're the highest bidder, you know you'll get the item at that price. Perfect.

It takes about 10 minutes to go through the first 4-5 pages of the sell forum and whenever I sell something it never goes past page 3 or 4 if I am using my free daily bump. Besides there is a search function just as the poster above stated so the exposure excuse is irrelevant.

Low starting points for auctions have been the norm... forever.

Low ballers are the norm everywhere.

Time is relative... so at what point are we wasting it? Buyer sees something worth 100k. His choice to start at 1 gold all the way up to 100k+ on the 1st bid. People bid and then cancel their bids all the time. So who's wasting who's time?

I welcome all lowball bidders. Feel free to keep bidding cuz you never know.

Ty and have a nice day.

Exactly. It's been this way since the internet began. Just because 1 person (Dark Morelia) doesn't like it, doesn't mean anything is ever going to change at all.

@Dark Morelia - Why stop here? There are tens of thousands of forums that act the same way. Maybe you should go on a 1 man crusade on this problem and see how far you get. Talk about "wasting time" huh?

I am going to continue to post low s/b on every forum I visit on the internet because that's how I like it. I'm not going to assume people use search all the time. I'm not going to assume my target audience will get exposure to my threads. Try and change my way of thinking. I dare you.

PS. I swear we live in a world with way too many bleeding hearts. If something as trivial as this bothers you I'd hate to spend a day in your shoes.

But here's the thing, byteme - the sales in the Guru Sell forum are not auctions, so you can't exactly compare them to eBay or whatever. Sure, some of them might be run sort of like an auction, but when the seller has no obligation to the high bidder, then they can't be considered true auctions, right?

There's nothing wrong with a low s/b if the seller also lists the b/o upfront, but most of the time that doesn't happen. As I said earlier, there are lots of high-end sales that are basically just elaborate price-checks where the seller may not intend to sell at all. Or they may have hidden r/b's that are so ludicrously high that they may never be met. And as Dark Morelia said, in that case the low s/b's just serve as a way to circumvent the Ventari's bump rules.

Obviously, this applies mostly to high-end stuff. I don't see anything wrong with a low-end thread having (for instance) all 1k s/b's. Lots of players don't want to be bothered PC'ing every single item they're selling, and that's perfectly fine. Given the choice though, when I'm looking for something specific, I'll always buy from someone with listed b/o's for low-end stuff just because I'd rather not wait while the seller considers offers.

This is the crux of the issue. The only reasons for this situation to exist is (as far as I can see)....

1) There is a mismatch between buyers and sellers - either in price expectations or simply that the seller and buyer never hook up. That being said, without someone being willing to bid a what the seller considers a reasonable amout of pixels, any items immediately realisable value is the merchant value

2) Epeen - i.e. "look at my pixels - got a bid of 150 pink pixels and turned it down" or variations thereof. This does not apply to serious collectors who buy for the satisfaction of building up their collections rather than epeen.

Just my opinions

Actually there arent. Most forums I see (Wartower for example) have an extra rule... You set the time a sales thread stays open when you create the thread, list your S/B, how big each bid step is and what the B/O is if there is one. Once the thread is automatically locked by the system, then the highest bidder wins the item no matter what.

If a seller is stupid enough to put a Mini Island Guardian up for a S/B of 1K and only one person bids... then either that one bidder is a happy owner of an Island Guardian mini for 1K or the seller gets an infraction warning and a ban if it has happened too many times.

Im not saying that this is the best method of running a forum sales section... but its a hell of a lot better than how some users here seem to want to maybe, eventually, probably, on an off chance that hell freezes over, sell some high end items.

If you want to sell something... please at least list your R/B (maybe after the 30th bump without bids? ) if no one bids higher than the lowball offer you are complaining about. Stop misusing the sales forum for hidden price checks or showing off your E-Peens with glossy pictures. Stop hogging the, how you call it, "Free bumps" to move other threads, in which users really want to sell stuff, away from the first page.

I really like the rules Wartower has and I think there should be steps taken to try and make the guru sell thread the best possible auction system for Guild Wars. Giving sellers the freedom to do w/e they want is what got us here in the first place.

I also want to add another problem I think only a small number of people see and that is the market manipulation of high end items. People are rich enough and markets on certain items are small enough to become the target of manipulation. I see the same small circle of people bidding on things I know they have multiples of only to have a sell thread with those items for bloated prices. Powertrading is one thing but this is just douche baggery on a whole new level.

P.S. Never underestimate the ambitions of a nerd, no matter how ridiculous they may be.

"Here," as in one of the most, if not the most, well-known and highest traffic English-language fansites where gear trading is allowed in a game without any built-in gear trading system?

Ventari's has always been flexible. If they add in new restrictions on how people may and may not list their items for sale, then they will change the dynamic of the community. Undoubtedly given the implied change, they will alienate a fair portion of the community.

I get that you (and some others commenting here) would prefer that some rules be enacted to stop how some other players want to trade. I'm wondering if you realize that will most likely reduce the traffic every thread here might see.

It's already happening with argos. I meet more players who "just check argos" than I do who use anything like Guru. The limitations of that system make Ventari's seem streamlined!

That may very well be going on, but I don't really see how it's more than tangential to this thread's topic.

Honestly, the tone of your comments comes off like, "Ventari's should be just the way I want it. Everyone should play by my rules or leave!" If you get your wish, lots of people will leave. Maybe they'll go somewhere else and some other site will become the most-well-known fansite trading venue.

Would you seriously choose a lower chance that players will see your trade threads just to get rid of these never-ending "offer" threads that seem to vex you so?


------------------------------

I still like the flexibility that Ventari's gives us. As an OP, it's up to me how I want to trade pixels. It's up to viewers to decide if I seem like someone they want to trade with. Many GW players will/can not register for fansites for various reasons (not the least of which is security concerns.) Setting a system up where all listings are binding and must sell to the highest offer from a registered user removes the option for us to accept offers via PM or whisper; it removes the option for us to change our mind if we honestly don't think any active bidder is willing to pay the price we're looking for.

There are lots of options for players to trade where listings and bids are binding already. None of them seem to have nearly as much traffic as Ventari's.

My ideal would be for Guru/Curse to get more functional auction software like what Maarten built for GWA. But I think there will always be a demand for a venue to advertise items for sale in a "seller's choice" format like Ventari's threads, regardless of how great any auction system is, even if it's implemented in game.


And I still strongly disagree with implementing any new rule for something we can do ourselves - if you don't like the hidden reserve threads, don't read or post in them; it is just that simple. Given the relatively low traffic in Ventari's these days, I honestly doubt those open-format threads are seriously reducing the traffic other threads get.

First of all, there is no tone here as you you cannot hear my voice. It's all in your head. Second, putting words in someones mouth is a bad way to make an argument.

This flexibility within the rules you speak of is something the people on here take full advantage of and not in a good way. A lot of potential buyers have had their time wasted because sellers use them for their own ends. Mostly for PCing because its more accurate then going to the price check section and asking people. Tell me, if you saw an item you really wanted and offered a good b/o price only to have them just suddenly close the thread and disappear would you think your time was well spent? Because sellers will see people that want these items and think I can get more money a few months down the road. Therefore wasting everyone's time but their own.

There are also huge flaws with having in game offers connected to an item on a sell thread, especially with people owning more than one account. Fake offers are a plague in this game atm.

You want to know how to get the price you want on an item? Research. Have a r/b and b/o before you post. If your so afraid of not getting a high enough price then set a higher r/b.

That can be explained. Guru has been popular for many years and has existed before most, if not all, other fansites. It had a huge following before GW even launched just as GW2 guru does. Wartower is also a German fansite only.

I seriously do not think that would work. Gurus automated AH has become so terrible that it would spread it's disease to the new one.

The players screamed for an AH and nearly had one, yet it was aborted due to supposed technical difficulties. Although the recent announcement by Gaile about restoring hacked accounts surprised me. Maybe GWs will get an AH in the future.

Ventari's rules are outdated. A community must enact new laws because the community evolves or sees the flaws within its current laws. If there was nothing wrong with the rules we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This right here...One time I wanted to take an item for the buyout, and then i came back to check the thread and the op increased the buyout.

And then there's nothing worse than a fake seller. Well, maybe a fake offerer.

Guru is what it is... At the end of the day it's a very helpful tool in playing GuildWars, as you are able to communicate with a community, trade, find builds, engage in discussion, and get new ideas from other players. If you do not like GWGuru, then don't use it. The format that currently exists, has existed for years, and is likely not going to be changed. It has worked more than good enough for many players.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Crying about it just annoys anyone who reads the threads in this sub forum, that was originally created to be entertaining for traders; not a QQ forum.

That is a lame excuse. Just because something is what it is does not mean it can't be made better for everyone.

Were not talking about any of the other sections here. As far as I am concerned the only one with a problem is the Sell section and that is all we are discussing so I would appreciate if you would not use the entire forum to defend it. The rest of the forum is irrelevant to this topic.

It's useful to all sellers but buyers can get the shaft quite often and I don't mean getting outbid by another person.

There are people on both sides of the discussion so it obviously doesn't annoy everyone. Just those who like the so called "flexibility" of the rules.

If it's annoying you then don't read or take part in the discussion. You seem confident the rules won't be changed.

Screw it... You're cheap, and you don't like that Sellers can have high prices. You want things that you can't afford because certain people have cornered the markets. You dislike the fact that people don't have to post b/o's on their threads, so that they may get bids that would exceed what they would have posted. You dislike that sellers can change their b/o if bids start getting closer to it, or higher than it.

Just because you feel that people who have things are getting preferential treatment, and those that want things are getting shafted, I have a news flash for you... That's been going on everywhere with regards to basically everything... Forever. In this game, smart/lucky people have things at the right time, and are able to extract 100's-1000's of ecto off players with the cash to spend on them. If you don't have the cash to spend on things then get something else.

I'd say no one cares about you're crying, but that would obviously not be true. You're bitching about how guru is unfair to those without 10000 ecto to spend on the drop of a hat. You have been doing this for quite a while too. If you don't like the system, go to a different forum, because the people who run this forum, are not going to change it seeing as it works just fine for a lot of other people.

Basically... Stop whining about how you're having a tough go at buying things. Stick to buying things in game if you don't like this forum. Oh also... A lot of people use Wartower that also use guru. A lot of people...

You really should learn to read. Where does it say anywhere that the Traders outpost is to entertain traders? The only entertaining thing atm on the Traders outpost is your lack of skills in terms of intelligent debating (lowering the standard to you cant afford xxx so stfu =/= an inteligent debating point).

The Admin who set up this section even bothered to write a small description below the traders outpost link so that people who bother to read where they are posting know where to post their threads and what type of posts go in those sections.

The traders outpost shows this description;

If you want to amuse traders then go to the off topic forum and post your amazingly funny trades there and see if anyone is interrested in them.

If you had bothered to read what this thread is about, then you would also see that this is not a thread about players QQing about how high the prices in Guru are and that we can not afford them, but a discussion about how sellers are misusing the sales forum for price checks and showing off their e-peen without apparently wanting to go through the actually bother of selling the stuff listed in their sales threads.

We are tring to get it through these sellers heads that they should get off their backsides and forget their stupid reserve bids which are a complete waste of time, server space and forum time. Im not saying that they should sell under worth, just put up the S/B as the amount that you would have used as R/B and have at it. You dont have to worry about those evil low ballers if you dont give them an oppertunity by posting your xxxx Armbraces item as a starting bid of 1K.

Learn what the meaning of a "Starting bid" is before you flame others about lowballing. It is impossible to lowball an offer if you are the ones actually setting the lowest bid you would expect to see offered for your item as somethign rediculously low.

This thread was originally about s/b's and lowballers, and has since turned into Swingline crying about how guru sell forum is broken. I have a strong belief that his dislike for the forum is because shit's expensive, and he's cheap. Also, this forum was here for discussing the trade forums yes... And posting threads that revolve around qq'ing seem to get closed rather swiftly. SO... My argument that because he can't afford item X therefor he should stfu, is in context to his posting that he thinks sellers are subject to favourable rules where as the buyers are stuck in a system that gives sellers too much freedom. I read into that as, he doesn't like how people don't have to post b/o's, can change them, and everything that entails to that.

SO... Contextually, my saying because he can't afford it therefor he should stfu is a perfectly sound argument, because he's saying I can't afford things therefor everyone else should change.

Also... The epeen idea... Seeing as PC'ing in todays economy is absolutely pointless, as it's almost impossible to know what an item is worth... I have no issue with someone posting it in the sell forum. You'll find that you know more after the thread, than before the thread. i.e. Maybe no one knew that person even had that item... OR.. Maybe that person has a b/o in mind, and no one's bids are even close to it, therefor they do not sell it. Consider this... Sellers sometimes have a b/o in mind... posting the b/o will scare off potential bidders... So.. They don't post a b/o in the hopes that bid wars will ensue and climb the price to a point where they are more comfortable selling, or informing.

Oh.. the same thing goes for s/b's as what I just said... Low s/b gives the thread more hits throughout the day, which in turn makes it more viewed, which adds to the likelyhood that someone who will pay premium dollar for an item sees the thread and starts bidding.

The current system is fine.. If you have problems with individual sellers, MAYBE TRY PM'ING THEM... And if you get no response, or they respond with something you don't like, then maybe move on to a different thread/item.

As for lowballers, I deem lowballers to mostly exist in game only, but there are some online. The ones on forums are the ones who bid with something they deem reasonable, and that, I, the seller deem unreasonable. That's my definition of a lowballer. Overly optimistic sellers exist, but seeing as it's a seller's world (not the actor), the onus is on the bidders to reach the sellers price, or ignore the sellers thread and find a different seller. You don't expect car salesmen to come to your door, and they expect you to give them a reasonable price for the vehicle they are selling.

there is no problem with guru - sorry guys. the system works great, I love not having to post a b/o or reserve unless i see it fit - because lets face it, there are a lot of lowballers everywhere. just how it goes. you aren't going to get my item thats worth 100e, for 20e just because no one else bid on it

guru is just fine, don't see any problems with it tbh.

IF someone has suggestions for what they think would be a good idea on a guidelines change
PM ME!!!!!!!!!!!

we are more than willing to listen (read) suggestions for how to make guru a better place for guildwars players.

IF you just want to complain---pm Jenn or Kvinna.

I like your "screw it... your cheap" argument. It's teeming with intelligence.

Succumbing to lowly insults is a sure way to lose a debate and drop your maturity level at the same time. If you truly knew me you would know I have certain tastes and if I find something I want I offer a very good price. Unfortunately you think anyone who doesn't pay what a seller wants is a lowballer. So that's about 90% of the GWs population by your logic and every player should rip themselves off...

Me and many buyers are sick of having our time wasted by kids who have no value of time. There are a few lowballers but most buyers are sincere and give very good offers. Yet sellers are to stubborn to sell for even 1% less than what they want. Then there are the people who waste the time of others by posting fake sales, whether it be to acquire PCs or show off their wares to inflate their ego. I feel like a broken record here.

While there is no price stamped on an item other than what the merchant pays, its the buyers who set them. Sellers are just to stubborn to accept it. That is why we have items that stay up for months.

Ok, we've really gone off the rails at this point.

I think there's two schools of thought, and personally I agree with a bit of each. There's something to be said for buyers being aware of r/b and b/o before they bid, and in some cases it's really impossible for a seller to set those at the beginning of an auction. A good example would be the +10 vs demons/+45ench Bladed Shield from a few months ago - iirc, the consensus PC was 250-300e, and it ended up selling for ~800e. In cases like that, an open-ended auction obviously makes more sense (As far as the PC on the Bladed goes, I think there were probably a few conflict-of-interest price checks there, but that's another issue).

Anyway, can we agree to disagree on the issue of Guru Sell forum practices and move on with the discussion?

I originally started the thread because I was interested in hearing opinions on the current GW economy. It seems to me that prices are fairly volatile for some stuff, with certain items priced quite a bit higher than they traditionally had been over the past 2-3 years. Whether sellers are actually getting these prices on a regular basis, well...I have my doubts.

If I contributed to the rage and flames in this thread, I am sorry! Seriously! That was never my intention.

It seems the average Guru-user's nature (if not simply the average human's nature) is to only bother posting when they don't like something. Folks who are perfectly content with something usually don't post.

I have been posting in this thread because I see a lot of posts from folks unhappy with some aspect of the system and calling for changes. The proposed changes strike me as bad ideas for a number of reasons, and I am happy with the system we have here more than the system I predict we'd have if any of these rule changes were enacted.

So I've been trying to resist my average Guru-user nature and take the time to speak up here, in order that the flow of posted comments does not risk appearing one-sided or "all in favor" to anyone reading, now or ever.


It's to the point now that I fear any more of my attempts to discuss the issue and point out flaws in the proposed plans will only serve to make people more angry and further derail jimbo's thread here.


I do sincerely apologize for any stress my comments caused anyone.


Cheers & Good luck!
Luny

PC's at this point are useless.. Whether it be conflict of interest or simple inability to actually predict the price of an item (the latter is my opinion), I think PC's on highend items has been pointless for a few years.

The highend market has been flooded with money, and because of that you get bid wars between people for some of the odd ball items that roll through, thus inflating prices. An example of that is the current desire to have shields with perfect mods. Years ago these shields were worth considerably less than they are now, relative to everything else. The same can be said for staves, wands, offhands, and caster items in general. My belief is that because the GW economy is based off an always inflating currency prices will always inflate. I also believe that the supply and demand ratios are interesting because the supply always increases (albeit at a somewhat steady rate [whether that is extremely slow, slow, or reasonably quick is irrelevant. It's steady]) and the demand always increases (at an extremely high rate because more people are making more money [And in my opinion they are making more money faster.])

So I think that you'll see this trend continue with the uninscribable weapons in particular. I also think it's too bad that WiK, HotN, and WoC didn't draw a larger crowd because had that happened there would have been a large influx of uninscribable weapons to the market which would have been interesting to watch (I believe it would be similar to the r8 15^50 drop in desire.. i.e everyone has what they want).

Anyways though... I am not really surprised with how things have worked out. I wish I had payed attention, as the trend was pretty easy to spot. Highend traders, particularly the minipet crowd, started buying up caster weapons. (The +5e stuff). So there was a huge influx of currency to that particular market. Before they started buying those items.. the prices were moderate, and in many cases less than their 15^50 counter part. As that started occurring more and more, the prices began to climb rapidly. Fairly easy to see now, but it was fairly obvious back then as well (retrospect is always 20/20)... People with money wanted certain things, and were willing to pay out big for them. The r8 15^50 market was almost abandoned. Many of the weapons were no longer that desired, and subsequently the market on them dropped significantly. (relative to everything else). I have two feelings with regard to the 15^50's... One feeling is that everyone was done collecting what they wanted, or at least everyone who had money to spend on them. The second feeling is that everyone jumped on board when +5e weapons started climbing in price, and because of that the currency allocation shifted from 15^50's to +5e's.

So now you're left with an economy that is stagnant in some areas, and increasing in other. It's almost impossible to predict because at any given time someone might log on and start a collection, or have a collection to sell. In my opinion, it's all relative to how much the richest players have, and what they want to buy/sell. i.e.... If you have 20,000 ecto.. or maybe more.. maybe you have 1500 arms, and you decide that you'd like to sell your collection of +10/-2e shields, or 20/20 staves, or 20/20 wands, or +5e swords... You go around and buy everything else, artificially inflating the prices and demands. Since people think it's the new thing to collect/trade they all go out and look for them, try to buy them, and try to sell them. Then once you've got a fair share of the market, and you have some of the more exceptional items, turn around and sell them. Make massive profits. Smart business imo. - endofconspiracyideas :P

So, that wraps up what I think of the current GW market. It's not broken, but it is what it is.. Ever inflating.. Ever responsive to trends.. And always eager to make some extra ecto. If you brake this message apart and criticize it I'd be happy... As I am going to review it before posting, I think it sums up what is the current state of the GW economy. There are lots of good weapons, there are lots of great weapons, there are tons of amazing items, and there's a massive amount of currency floating around, and not floating around. Nothing wrong with how people conduct their business, as it's just pixels in a game.

I think an r10 collection might be a good thing to get started on.. All the r9's are getting bought out. That or maybe 15^50's will make a huge comeback for mysterious reasons?... uhoh... what to do, what to do...

I hope this was reasonably on topic Jimbo, as I did try... With respect to your OP...

I think that Guru traders want the best price both to sell and buy, and will wait as long as possible to get it for the sake of getting a good deal. I think the exception is that some players just want to move items fast.

You're not the only one.. If you've read this far, then you probably saw that I have my theories about why that is as it is...

tL'dR: The gw economy is inflating by design. Item prices go up relative to what people desire. Prices can be artificially inflated extremely easily if you have the currency to do it. This will never change, and I think it's cool to watch and hope you get in on it.

Some good points there carnage.

I'm wondering if some of the inflation is due to the SC kiddies with tons of cash suddenly deciding that Tyrian/Canthan stuff is "kewl". For instance, I've noticed an increase in demand/price for OS Earth staves pretty much across the board - 20/20 Core skin, 20/10 Zodiac or Celestial, etc. Other than OF or SF sliver builds, I'm not sure who else would be using them.

That's obviously just one example, but assuming the above speculation is correct, maybe the same part of the GW community is driving up OS demand across the board. That, combined with a stagnant supply due to a declining player population, could explain why things are sorta all over the place.

I still don't get the high-ish prices for crappy or semi-crappy OS shields though. :P

This is the only thing you have said that I agree with and it is a huge blunder of Anets.

I will never be on board with this. This is incredibly unethical even for a video game. There was a company that tried to artificially create demand and inflate the price of energy. That company was called Enron. The only reason this continues in GWs is there is no one to police people and the removal of certain items as drops allowed people to control the few remaining items. This is not a game where the person on the other end doesn't exist. People should not be ripping others off just to increase the pixel count in their storage.

In the end you and I are two different people. I am a person not driven by greed.

I believe this has reached its end.

/endofdiscussion

Swingline... I never said I agreed with the tactics I suggested. I am merely stating that it is a possibility. The knowledge that people have tons of money, and control over certain markets is a fact in this game. Also... It does happen in real life. They are called collectors. Your example of Enron.. meh. People who collect things can drive up the price.

You're right about 1 thing. This conversation is over. We are two completely different people. I am accepting of what is, and that it will not change, and have learned to adapt to it. You are obstinate in your thoughts, and would rather blame someone else than realize that things are, and you have to adapt if you want to succeed.

Onto Jimbo.

SC'ers is the most likely source for all the new-found riches in GW. Seeing as you can farm an armbrace in less than 2 hours in a few different guilds/alliances, that adds a fairly large amount of currency into the game. I wouldn't dare speculate without first posting a disclaimer that.. I'm probably wrong...

Lol'ing around speculating on GW's economy... Don't open unless you're ready for text spam, ridiculous numbers, and a lot of guesswork...


So. In conclusion on that topic.. Yes. SC'ers are helping drive up prices. Why do I say this? Because I was an SC'er, and probably will be one again. It is easy money. It is fast money. It is safe money.

So using that ... concept from hell... There is an enormous amount of money coming into the game daily... As a result of that... Everything will go up in prices.. duh.. BUT.. What also occurs is that lucky ol' ... anyone with a cool skin/weapon/item gets to sell it for WAY MORE MONEY!!! So.. now that I have 52000 ecto because my r8 collection of shields/weapons, and my 8 minis (I got 2 years ago for dirt cheap) all sold for insane amounts of money because there's more currency in the game and in everyone's pocket... It means that I can start that ornate buckler collection I've always wanted to start... It means I'll pay anything just to have that +30 +1 20% Death because.. I really really want it... But it also means I'll pay anything minus an arbitrary amount for a +29 +1 19%. But wait... Someone else wants to collect the exact same Ornate Buckler skin... Well. I have more money than him.. I'll just outbid him.

Etc. You can see how this would get out of hand really really quick.

SO! what this creates is an artificial demand. Because 2 people really really want something it means that anyone with something like it, now expects more. I'm using fake numbers/items btw.. And no.. I don't have 52000 ecto, or an r8 collection, or 8 minis (that would be worth insane ecto) so.. yea, just an example.

So as you can see... Something like that above is perfectly reasonable to assume to be true because.. Well.. It has obviously happened. Stuff that was expensive back in 06 cost 150-200e.. Those same things in some cases are worth 1000's of ecto now. Relative to everything else in the game, some things came out better than others. Because of that, people made lots of money. Because of that.. they chose to spend it on random things, or very specific things.. Because of that.... Random things, and sometimes very specific things became very expensive.

I don't mean to waste everyone's time, and overload this thread with nonsense... so..

tL;dR: Money money money.. make collectors rich.. start new collection of random stuff... make other people rich... more richness everywhere, everything becomes expensive as more peoples interest inflate the prices of more things... The trend continues, exponentially as everyone becomes interested in everything because they have money to spend, and all of a sudden the economy collapses and everyone's bankrupt and their guildhalls are repo'd by anet because they didn't make payments on the loan. Or something like that

Consider that the addition of ectos and armbraces into the market from SC popularity is adding more commodities or alternative currencies, and not as much actual gold or platinum. (Sorry, I don't know all the correct economic vocabulary.)

I would think it's the addition of new currency - actual gold and platinum - into the economy that really causes inflation. If all that was going on was more and more ectos and armbraces coming into the system, then the "cash value" of said ectos and armbraces would simply drop, no? The players get used to certain average prices and don't react instantly to changes, sure, but eventually the cash value of ectos and armbraces does adjust with shifts in the economy. (A couple years ago 1e~5k and 1arm~50e were pretty standard averages.)

The newly produced ectos and armbraces keep what value they do have, at least in part, because there is enough new gold/plat added to the market on a regular basis thanks to cash rewards from quests along with gold drops and merchfood sales.


I agree that the end result is inflation and the increasing "fair market values" of rare items with limited or zero new supply. I'm simply not sure it's correct to blame it entirely on DoA and/or UW SCing.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was blaming anything on anyone. I'm merely stating what I have observed, and I have left out a massive amount of information... Had I included everything regarding the GW economy this would be pages long. I was referring to an extremely small community of players, and excluding the vast majority of casual gamers who merch stuff all day, buy stuff from the traders, etc... Keeping the gold levels in the game high.

The SC'ers, and particularly the DoAsc'ers and UWsc'ers are introducing the main highend currency; ectos and armbraces.

The casual gamers are introducing the cash to moderate the market levels.

Everyone else is contributing on both fronts.

I wouldn't even want to venture any guess with regards to speculating how much new currency is generated every day, and what the cash flow levels are at all merchants and all drops/rewards. I think it would be super cool to know, but the numbers would be staggering. Maybe Anet has a counter and can tell us each days total for a full week? That would be insanely cool.

I didn't mean "blame" in a negative context. It's just that I noticed a possible flaw/omission in your theory, that's all. (and I don't mean "flaw" in a negative context either!)

/signed! That would be incredibly interesting! And it would surely shed fascinating light on discussions like jimbo's original intent for this thread.

So basically, anyone who isn't a trader and isn't an Sc'er has no hope?

I didn't say that. Either of those things... If you don't trade or do sc's then you might not have what someone who does those things has. There are exceptions, like all things, but the exception is not the rule.

Not at all true. I guess that I'm a "collector" in the truest sense of the word--that is I sell nearly nothing, and almost never try to sell my items after buying them.

That being said, the way I made money was by running people through missions/dungeons for quite a long time. Doing something like that is both more challenging/rewarding than SCing (in my opinion) and certainly just as if not more profitable. Understandably not everyone can do something like that, but there are numerous avenues to make money in this game, not just SC and powertrading.

To be more in the vein of the original nature of the thread, I'd like to add that unfortunately there really is a lot of unethical iflation/deflation of items because of very wealthy people. Why exactly is a r8 +5e Zodiac Sword suddenly worth 750e when it used to be maybe 200e a few months ago--conversely why was a r9 Fire Wayward Wand 20 HCT / +5e^50 PCed at 100k (if you know wands, you know this is basically a holy grail level item, especially for such a desired attribute--you could easily find 5 r8 +5e Zodiac Swords before ever even seeing a comparable scepter)? It all seems very fishy to me, and a lot of the dealings with the GW high end economy makes me think that many powertraders are downright unethical, or just misinformed. Honestly, I think there is tremendous artificial demand in this game by the extremely wealthy, and it's very frustrating to behold.

Anyway, just my 2cents--this thread was really long and I didn't follow all the arguments, so if I've repeated what someone has said/insulted anyone, I'm sorry.

Anyway, really interesting thread Jimbo.

Toodles,
Yuko

Supply/Demand

The supply of that wand is much lower than the sword, you are absolutely correct. However, the demand for that wand is also lower than the sword. The ratio between the two determines the price. If you believe that more people want those wands than those swords, you're wrong.

Obviously, but its also a lot more complicated than that. That pricecheck I quoted to you was probably driven by ignorance (obviously an item that good isn't worth only 100k; I've had more experienced traders value something like that at over 500e). But, this highlights what I think is a critical aspect of the GW economy--ignorance informs much of the people out there. That's why Guru's PC forum is always so active; people don't know what an item is worth, and it allows people to designate a price. Do I necessarily think that people were lowballing that scepter in order to get it for 100k from me? Not necessarily, but when misinformation is so prevalent, people are inclined to follow it as if it is accurate. Indeed, for more"obscure" items like that wand (or, perhaps a much better example, the q8 14^50 Dwarven Axe that sold for only 450e recently) people, especially new people, really have no idea what they are worth, and rely on people's opinions. People with less interest in these items undervalue the, they lose popularity and boom, suddenly they are worth far less than what they were/really should be. There was a time that Dwarven Axe wouldn't have sold for less than 2000e+; but with the lack of demand that is really at its core driven by ignorance or lack of interest, it has dwindled in value.

Similarly, newer people would be very inclined to believe that a q8 +5e Zodiac Sword is worth 1000e (which is totally ridiculous) because its suddenly popular, not to mention the limited supply created by some of the big traders that own the majority of those items. Really, a lot of the Guild Wars economy is dictated by what is trending, and the idea of what is trending is in many ways controlled by big traders. Big traders/SC Guilds suddenly start buying up all the q8 swords? Bam, they quadrupe-quintuple in price because demand skyrocketed. What alot of people aren't aware of is who/what exactly is creating this demand (be it natural or artificial), and I think that is at the core of this mystery.

I can't really offer anything more than an educated guess at it, which in itself is sort of useless, so I'm going to stop there and let other people figure it out.

The discussion has taken into consideration supply/demand. It's the fact that there's probably at least a half dozen r8 +5e zodiac swords floating around right now, whereas that wand is likely 1 of only a couple. It's obvious that the prices on certain things are going up high, and it's mysteriously the same people bidding on all these items, and subsequently it's the same people who now own most all of these things.

The ignorant are the ones most likely to follow trends, including prices.

Wands have always been unpopular. The main reason is a perfect 20/20 matching attribute gold wand is so butt RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing rare. Its like a game of tick tack toe you never win and since there's the end game wayward wand greens yours will not get the appreciation it deserves from the casual GW player. Also +5e^50 is scoffed at nowadays. It's all about the 20/20s.

I saw a collector price a Q8 +5e Zodiac Sword for 300e in the PC section. Then he was trying to sell in the buy section for 700e. I am actually all for power trading as long as your not lying through your teeth but something is very fishy about pcing an item for 300e then trying to sell it for 700e.

That guy doesn't represent all of the high-end traders. Thankfully, the guy who posted above him asked for a much more reasonable price and someone will eventually ask for a much more reasonable amount for a celestial than the 750e that guy asked. Patience is a virtue.

IMO, let the power-traders do what they want. There's nothing wrong about wanting to make some kind of profit from your investment. Only people that can stop them is anet. Just be patient and eventually you'll find a genuine guy who will sell for a genuine price. Only problem is getting to those guys before the power traders

Just curious, what could Anet do to prevent massive inflation? Have more gold sinks? Have a "tax?" What have other MMO's done to prevent this kind of thing? o.O

Hey it could be worse guys... You could be like the rest of us folk who CAn't afford any of this stuff... Driving the prices up on some things and making other things ABSOLUTELY GARBAGE! Sigh... I'm not overly optimistic, I just think I got shafted on the market trend :P