Guild Wars Guru

Effects of (possible) HM update on dervishes

1 pages • Page 1
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #1
Quote: Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
Anet stated in a press release that they will lower all HM mob armor to its respective professions armor levels of 60, 70 and 80. To compensate for the loss in armor they will have their health increased and thus giving armor ignoring damage a blanket nerf across the board and armor respective damage (elemental/physical) a buff in a weird sort of way. This is how HM should have been from the start. So... they are going to kill the only good Dervish Farm? What a bunch of shortsighted $%&*#
K
Kunder
Desert Nomad
• #2
An interesting observation: IV is 2/3rds of SF in DPS for a single character in 1/2 the cast time (assuming that you target it correctly so that it does maximum damage). Along with the obvious advantages of infinite energy generation vs. requiring 4 skills on your bar just to fuel SF. Course, the main advantage of SF is that it scales better the more SF characters you get while IV scales worse, but its a cool fact.

Also, IV is going to be a nice replacement for RoJ in N/Mo smite support builds.

Quote: Originally Posted by Old but new View Post
So... they are going to kill the only good Dervish Farm? What a bunch of shortsighted $%&*# Sorry, balance doesn't give a damn about farming.
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #3
Avatar_of_Melandru This skill is what enables a Dervish to tank in any case that Shadow Form would not really be needed.(much like the warriors Defy Pain)....raising the HP of monsters would make this skill useless once again....
That's balanced?

Faithful_Intervention This skill only works if the Dervish can keep it's health high enough to make use it.
That's balanced?

Intimidating_Aura This skill is ENTIRELY dependent on keeping on the Dervish health above the enemy's. Another useless Dervish skill... Really?
That's balanced?

Crippling_Victory This skill's primary goal is gone... no longer useable if the HP cap goes up
That's balanced?

Victorious_Sweep This skill's secondary affect would never trigger again. Making one the Dervish's best skills become useless overnight.
That's balanced?

Chilling_Victory Yet another skill that High HP would make useless
That's Balanced?

So just to recap.....
1) kills 3 really good scythe attacks.. effectively lowering the Dervish overall DPS by a staggering amount.

2)Kills an elite skill specifically made to put Dervish on an even playing field with Warriors

3)Kills a farming build for the Dervish

All this adds up to a decreased battlefield "presence" of this profession by such a large degree, that is is likely, in my opinion, to never be useful in organized PvP again. If something is not changed with these specific skills.. anet will have allot of angry Derv's on there hand.
Not to mention how this affects all other professions. This measure should of been made a long time ago. Not after they made these changes to the Dervish class. The untold consequences of this mistake will ripple through the community. Mark my word, and do not be surprised when ALLOT of people rage when they realize what's happened; has not benefited anything other than Elementist.
Lanier
Lanier
Desert Nomad
• #4
balance should not be based at all on popular farming builds.

Ok, so maybe a few derv skills would recieve nerfs. Degen skills would also recieve nerfs. These are the unfortunate side-effects of raising HP/lowering ar (of course ar-ignoring damage also recieves nerfs but it needs nerfs imo).

But look at the upside: There are many more elemental damage skills than just the elementalist ones. This would also help the rit's lightning damage spells, the necro's cold damage spells, the monk's lone elemental damage spell (zealot's fire), and the derv's earth/cold magic spells. So yes, maybe a few derv skills recieve slight nerfs (once again, im not considering farms), but many more skills (derv skills included) recieve buffs.
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #5
Very well thought out argument.. thank you for that.

That being said, the "untold consequences" still very much concerns me. Such as melee damage being more of a threat than it is now(it all ready is).. just as an example. Combine that the Dervish small packet damage, low crit chance. The warriors high crit chance, and big packet damage. It's a recipe for major balance issues in the near future. Sometimes I hate being right about these things, but I fear the catastrophe of the infamous '07 patch is bound to repeat it's self. In case you don't know that one... 1/3 of the community left the game after that patch. Guild Wars can not afford that this late in the game. Servers would forced to shut down do to lack of an active community.
Than again, who am I too say that was not they're intention in the first place.
Swingline
Swingline
Forge Runner
• #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Old but new View Post Avatar_of_Melandru This skill is what enables a Dervish to tank in any case that Shadow Form would not really be needed.(much like the warriors Defy Pain)....raising the HP of monsters would make this skill useless once again....
That's balanced?


Faithful_Intervention This skill only works if the Dervish can keep it's health high enough to make use it.
That's balanced?

Intimidating_Aura This skill is ENTIRELY dependent on keeping on the Dervish health above the enemy's. Another useless Dervish skill... Really?
That's balanced?

Crippling_Victory This skill's primary goal is gone... no longer useable if the HP cap goes up
That's balanced?

Victorious_Sweep This skill's secondary affect would never trigger again. Making one the Dervish's best skills become useless overnight.
That's balanced?

Chilling_Victory Yet another skill that High HP would make useless
That's Balanced?

So just to recap.....
1) kills 3 really good scythe attacks.. effectively lowering the Dervish overall DPS by a staggering amount.

2)Kills an elite skill specifically made to put Dervish on an even playing field with Warriors

3)Kills a farming build for the Dervish

All this adds up to a decreased battlefield "presence" of this profession by such a large degree, that is is likely, in my opinion, to never be useful in organized PvP again. If something is not changed with these specific skills.. anet will have allot of angry Derv's on there hand.
Not to mention how this affects all other professions. This measure should of been made a long time ago. Not after they made these changes to the Dervish class. The untold consequences of this mistake will ripple through the community. Mark my word, and do not be surprised when ALLOT of people rage when they realize what's happened; has not benefited anything other than Elementist. Dervish on an even playing field with Warriors? Can a Warrior hit 3 mobs at once? Do Warriors have attacks that refund them health? Does the Warrior have enchantments that cast instantly? Does the Warrior have an easily accessible skill to cause cracked armor? Does the Warrior have avatars that grant them jaw dropping abilities?

The only thing the warrior has is SY to buff the party and... oh wait another class stole that roll from us.

You haven't even seen the update yet and your on the brink of a full on rage meltdown? If I was playing a dervish main I would at least think anet might take a look at such skills that have affects based on hp and then if they don't it just means the dervish can't solo entire mobs which is just imbalanced.

P.S. I would just like to add your dervish update took my warriors W/D farming build for ecto farming and you didn't see me complaining about it. I simply moved on.
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #7
Quote: Dervish on an even playing field with Warriors? Can a Warrior hit 3 mobs at once? Do Warriors have attacks that refund them health? Does the Warrior have enchantments that cast instantly? Does the Warrior have an easily accessible skill to cause cracked armor? Does the Warrior have avatars that grant them jaw dropping abilities? I think you need perspective on the situation...If HP of all monsters increases... the damage difference between Warriors and Dervish's would be way out of balance. True it would solve most issues with Mezmers out damaging Elementist, and to some extent Rits and other professions. But if you really critically think about it, it's quite an obvious outcome.
My theory would be that Elementist damage would indeed increase. But Warriors and Assassins Critical damage would give them too much of an edge. I can't help but to think that Elementist (and all other professions) would still find them self's at the mercy of marauding warriors and Palm strike Sins.

In the end all I'm asking is that people wake up and think about the consequences of changing something like this.

Quote:
If I was playing a dervish main I would at least think anet might take a look at such skills that have affects based on hp and then if they don't it just means the dervish can't solo entire mobs which is just imbalanced. Common since should tell you that they did NOT think about it...otherwise why redesign skills specifically centered around keeping health up? Only to change the environment in which these skills were designed to counter?
Wake up man... I can see this flub coming from 10 miles out. Surely you must have an inkling of what must be going on....
Swingline
Swingline
Forge Runner
• #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Old but new View Post I think you need perspective on the situation...If HP of all monsters increases... the damage difference between Warriors and Dervish's would be way out of balance. True it would solve most issues with Mezmers out damaging Elementist, and to some extent Rits and other professions. But if you really critically think about it, it's quite an obvious outcome.
My theory would be that Elementist damage would indeed increase. But Warriors and Assassins Critical damage would give them too much of an edge. I can't help but to think that Elementist (and all other professions) would still find them self's at the mercy of marauding warriors and Palm strike Sins. Dervish damage would not become nerfed. Only weapon damage is calculated by armor, all the +damage from attack skills is armor ignoring and it is indeed a buff to all physical melee weapons while it is also nerf to damage added by attack skills that is not elemental such as chilling victory. This is the type of scenario where the professions that dable in different types of damage get a nerf(that they needed) and a buff at the same time in different places.

Skills that immediately refund health while dealing damage on a HM mob with full HP is nothing short of imbalanced. It's supposed to be Hard Mode, not easy mode where you can run up and solo whole groups. They will still be very usable for survivability but not to the point of being overpowered. I can only hope the same thing happens to SF and SoS even though it won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old but new View Post
In the end all I'm asking is that people wake up and think about the consequences of changing something like this.

Common since should tell you that they did NOT think about it...otherwise why redesign skills specifically centered around keeping health up? Only to change the environment in which these skills were designed counter?
Wake up man... I can see this flub coming from 10 miles out. Surely you must have an inkling of what must be going on.... After reading this its clear your just a kid whose pissed off for losing his imbalanced solo farm or a fail troll. My guess is the latter.
AndrewSX
AndrewSX
Jungle Guide
• #9
Higher HP doesn't mean that you won't be able to use those skill you listed (like chilling victory) effectively: you just won't be able to have them work at maximum power at first strike(full hp of a mob), and, even if you see it like a nerf, it's so slightly that you'll hardly notice difference (also, Dervs have tons of ways to keep up/boost his hp to meet those conditions).

And now go tell me that is hard to cut in half the bar of a mob with all the OP crap running around, expecially if ele dmg will be improved....
You'll just have to wait for 3 seconds before get the bonus effect of those skills.
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #10
@Swingline- it's ok if you don't get it

I understand those skills are still useable.. but you know as well as anyone, that nothing but the most optimal builds stay in this game. Skills that gimped would not be used.. lets be real about that.
LifeInfusion
LifeInfusion
Grotto Attendant
• #11
Who uses Melandru or tanks on a Dervish?
Crip Victory is lame in PvE, when you have Crippling Sweep. Leave the crippling to casters with YMLAD!.
Victorious Sweep: easy, use it as a killing blow if you just want the HP gain.
Chilling Victory: all "victory" skills: use when mob is low on HP.

...update would RAISE Dervish DPS because most of the damage is armor reduced. It would be a slight nerf to Assassins instead (high +damage, low base damage).

The update would also benefit idiots who use DwG as a Ritualist build and stand next to melee while being pounded on sans SY!.
K
Kunder
Desert Nomad
• #12
Quote: Originally Posted by LifeInfusion View Post
...update would RAISE Dervish DPS because most of the damage is armor reduced. It would be a slight nerf to Assassins instead (high +damage, low base damage). Seriously, this can't be overstated. Dervs are going to gain a good +10-20 damage per hit on every attack. Also, Sand Shards absolutely rapes at 250 AoE damage, its suddenly at least as good as SW if not better.

We're not sure exactly how much (or even IF, AFAIK) Anet will boost health to compensate, but if they do it 1:1 then assassins and most armor ignoring damage is taking a ~25-30% drop in effectiveness against HM mobs.

As for the skills you list Old but new, they are all already pretty bad skills. Monster HP is already much higher than player HP in most areas. There are other attack skills that are better right now before the HP increase, and the defensive skills are what you shouldn't be bringing for the same reason that W/Mos shouldn't be bringing mending.

I'm not sure you really are thinking through how damage works, or have a firm grasp of the classes Old but new. Dervs/Warriors both deal damage in 90% the same way, and if anything warriors get hit harder since they tend to skill spam more.

Weakening of Degen skills is regrettable, but its like weakening Mending at this point in the game. There's really not many skills being nerfed that aren't overpowered to the point of deserving the nerf or underpowered to the point that no one should care anyway.
K
Kunder
Desert Nomad
• #13
Thread fail

Affects -> Effects

(inb4 spinoff to a tertiary thread on English grammar).
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Old but new
Ascalonian Squire
• #14
Sorry for the late response I was "Occupying" downtown
Quote: Originally Posted by Kunder View Post
Thread fail

Affects -> Effects

(inb4 spinoff to a tertiary thread on English grammar). Ummm ok ??? that has to do with what now?


Anyways.. back on point, I hope U guys are right about it. I find myself concerned with more important things lately.

I still think it's a disaster waiting to happen, with months of nerfs to precede. When or If this happens. But I guess well see..

----------

Id just like to add that Dervs and warriors DO NOT deal damage the same way. Derv's rely on small packet damage hitting multiple targets with low to non existent Crit hit rate. Warriors on the other hand rely on big packet damage, med-high crit chance rate. Assassins rely on med packet damge (through the use of skill combos), and high crit chance rate.
With low/er armor and higher health, small packet damage would get biggest nerf. So on average Dervs would be hitting for (guessing: 20-30) points less than it's melee counterparts. Again I did not do an math on it.. just taking the average auto attack damage they do now compared to before the Dervish update.
K
Kunder
Desert Nomad
• #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Old but new View Post
Id just like to add that Dervs and warriors DO NOT deal damage the same way. Derv's rely on small packet damage hitting multiple targets with low to non existent Crit hit rate. Warriors on the other hand rely on big packet damage, med-high crit chance rate. Assassins rely on med packet damge (through the use of skill combos), and high crit chance rate.
With low/er armor and higher health, small packet damage would get biggest nerf. So on average Dervs would be hitting for (guessing: 20-30) points less than it's melee counterparts. Again I did not do an math on it.. just taking the average auto attack damage they do now compared to before the Dervish update. 1. 90% of damage is from buffs, which work nearly the same for each class, as all that matters is how fast you hit things (dervs hit up to 3 things at once auto attacking, warriors attack slightly faster). Being armor ignoring, both warriors and dervs are getting hit about equally here. Sins get ganked here because Death Blossom is also armor ignoring.

2. Small packets vs Large packets have no difference with respect to armor. 5x 20 damage is exactly the same as 1x 100 damage as far as armor is concerned. Either way, both of those attacks deal 50 damage if the enemy has 100 armor.

3. Warriors have the exact same crit rate as Dervs almost all the time. The only difference is Fear Me, which is in Tactics and therefore of marginal usage. Never mind that crits are much weaker for warriors, Dervs actually get more benefit from critical hits overall. Furthermore, crit rate also doesn't matter for armor level differences, all it does is add a multiplier to damage which translates to the same difference between Dervs and Warriors no matter the enemy armor level.

4. Dervs get the largest boost as armor classes lower, as they deal the most armor-affected damage. That is a fact. Seriously, sand shards is ridiculous unless they nerf it. ATM Dervs deal maybe 5% more damage than warriors, expect that to go up to 10% or 15%.
E
Elfblade
Academy Page
• #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Old but new View Post
Id just like to add that Dervs and warriors DO NOT deal damage the same way. Derv's rely on small packet damage hitting multiple targets with low to non existent Crit hit rate. Warriors on the other hand rely on big packet damage, med-high crit chance rate. Assassins rely on med packet damge (through the use of skill combos), and high crit chance rate.
With low/er armor and higher health, small packet damage would get biggest nerf. So on average Dervs would be hitting for (guessing: 20-30) points less than it's melee counterparts. Again I did not do an math on it.. just taking the average auto attack damage they do now compared to before the Dervish update. You are wrong about assassin damage almost of the damage assassins deal is armor ignoring(as in melee buffs and +dmg from skills, it is sure to be around 90% of the damage), assasins have very low armor respective damage. The only thing that is better is the attackspeed when using deathblossom combo as u can trigger the melee buffs more. In the end i think it is only going to really have a small impact on assasins, a small buff to dervs and it is going to be the same for warriors. As the HM change will affect melee buffs the most in a negative way. While a lot of the skills of the dervish get a boost since they deal elemental damage.

I think if you read up on armor on wiki and read what most of the dervish skills do for damage it should become clear for you.
h
hirush
Ascalonian Squire
• #17
If anet really did something like that, what about the healers on monster side? Their healing effectiveness going to drop.
K
Kunder
Desert Nomad
• #18
Ehh, healers are almost never a problem in the vast majority of cases. And keep in mind that they only get less effective compared to armor-affected damage, they will be equally effective against the armor ignoring damage that dominates now.
Laylat
Laylat
Frost Gate Guardian
• #19
Your auto-attack would be doing a lot more damage in HM... I wouldn't be worried about it so much. By the time you need HP from Victorious Sweep, your auto-attack would've lowered the mobs HP by quite a bit.