Leadership change

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Changed the functionality of Leadership to: “You gain 2 Energy for each ally affected by one of your shouts or chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).”

Read: +4energy from GFTE if you have a minipet. BUG FIX?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20111117

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Well, the minipet is technically your ally. Whats to be fixed?

If anything I would say that this is a desired feature since Anet clearly agrees that paragons suck horribly in small groups. Best change would be to simply give double bonus for shouts that affect the paragon itself, but w/e. Its a neat feature as is

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

They still suck horribly; energy or none. They simply have no good skills to abuse... The only ones I can think of is barbed+maiming and that's it. What else are they good for?

Suggestions for a 4v4 arena Paragon bar?

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

This has almost no effect on PvE; you were almost always limited by the energy gain cap, not the energy gained per ally. This is almost certainly an attempt to make paragons more flexible out of pure 8v8 in PvP.

wilebill

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

Guess it is good, but it causes me no excitement, just a fresh wave of ennui.

Rise of Cpu

Rise of Cpu

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

trollin in hong kong city

[Jwlz]

Mo/A

i have a paragon - its a good feature - but its not my main - i don't really care too much about it, just use my paragon for show lol

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

Gonna copy my post from another thread here:

Just went through 25 wins on RA playing a paragon. ^^ Was with a really good team, though. I took the Enraged Spear build from rangers, switched Barb Spear with "Go For the Eyes!", and was spamming 7 energy gain very often. Didn't need expertise at all for energy management. The new flux kept beast mastery at 14.

But then again, I always thought paragons had great energy management with leadership - when it fully worked. Still, that's the only "viable" build I can think of for RA paragons from this update at the moment.

EDIT: That's because it's a build that both keeps me attacking (to activate adrenaline shouts) and abuses (non-paragon) skills thanks to the help of energy management.

Showtime

Showtime

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

WTB Q9+5e Bows/Q8 14^50 Weapons

R/P

I haven't played my para in a long time. Does this give some possibilities for high cost supports skills? Is it time to test out the radiant runes and high energy staff or even spear and offhand?

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

Here's another build I've been running on RA:

14 Leadership with +3 Rune and Head, for 7 energy gain per shout/ chant.
High tactics + tactics shield. Everything else on Spear Mastery.

-"Burning Refrain" plus (and because) "They're on fire" is now manageable (only costs 3), and because you'll have less health than your opponent.
-Slayer's Spear because you can pay for its cost now, and you'll have less health than your opponent.
-Burning Spear for synergy, plus Barbed Spear.
-"Watch Yourselves" for free 7 energy management and constant party protection.
- Soldier's Fury for IAS and more adrenaline (and thus more energy).

Focus on the damage dealers, like elementalists or the melee characters. Your party will have constantly 1/3 damage reduction from them PLUS +18-21 ARMOR.

Things to note:
-Because your attack skills deal mostly armor-ignoring damage, you can grind heavy armorers while still keep their damage reduced.
-You'll still have enough damage to help out killing anyone else.
-Your low health will be compensated by your protective skills.
-You can attach Burning Refrain to more players whenever you have free time and resources to do so, but the build doesn't needs it to be effective.

Bobby Sox

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

Minty Fresh Death [MFD]

P/

Well, back in 2007 I suggested this or a slight variation on it, doubling the amount of energy gained in 4-man areas and was shot down:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/l...tml?t=10232399


Anyways, outside of the 4-man areas, a few skills that this helps slightly are the single target shouts, such as "Find Their Weakness!", as well as the several shouts like "Never Surrender!", which don't always affect the entire party. It also allows for a little more splitting on a GvG team with a Paragon without worrying as much about compromising the Paragon's energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
Energy was never the paragon's biggest problem - their awful skill set was. I guess there's TNTF, but that was easily useable before this update, even in 4 man areas like old ascalon.
While I agree with you that the Paragon's skillset is it's main hindrance and that Paragons were still very much usable in 4-man zones, I'd equate it with any other profession only getting half benefit from their primary attribute in such areas. A Mesmer who casts more slowly in 4-man areas or a Necromancer who gains half as much from soul reaping due to party size limits would still be usable, for instance, but it would be an annoyance, nonetheless.

Take heart, though! Robert Gee has stated on the official wiki:
Quote:
This change was something we've been thinking about for a while to help out Paragons in 4 man areas and 4 man PvP. It's not the big Paragon update we've been talking about, rather it's just something simple we felt could help that wouldn't cause any collateral damage. It just made more sense to release once it was ready than to hold onto it.

KotCR

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

[DVDF]

P/

Nice change. Its simple but will really help Paragons maintain there use of their favourite builds in 4-man areas. Previously you'd have to sometimes sacrifice an extra skill slot (and therefore some utility you actually wanted) for an extra adrenaline shout/chant or glowing signet. This will no longed be neccessary...and as mentioned already, on the PvP side of things will make Paragons more viable for splits, RA and CA, as they do have a handful of skills which are still effective even with only 4 allies.

With the current flux it may be a perfect time to roll a Searing Flames + "They're on Fire" Paragon for a semi-useful and fun build in RA now. Wasn't really practical before with the gimped leadership, but now the energy costs of such a build won't be as big a deal.

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

Simple, and it helps paras not feel gimped in 4 man areas. I like it.

As for the people saying that paras are terrible regardless of energy in RA: heck no. Leadership was always their problem; they do fine ranged damage (and can stack quite a few conditions) as they are.

street peddler

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

this change is like a band-aid. solves one problem, but paragons are just fundamentally broken. their main tools (shouts, chants, echoes) need to be completely re-imagined. every class has useless skills, but 75% of the paras skillset is worthless because its either lackluster (the entire Motivation attribute) or outdone by another class (why use Its just a flesh wound when Restore Condition does the same thing except better, why use Defensive Anthem when its inferior to Aegis (in PvE) and its NON-ELITE, why use Anthem of Guidance when Ghostly Weapon is not as random and not an elite(and GW isnt even widely used)).

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

The problem is that everything unique that a paragon does is almost entirely uncounterable short of running away and hoping the enemy team has to split up at some point. This has always been the problem from the start. Anet never really thought things through when they originally created the expansion professions, but it shows far more with the paragon than the others. As soon as paragon shouts become worthwhile alternatives to essential party functions they become uncounterable alternatives to essential party functions, which is imbalanced.

We saw the same problems with Assassins (shadowstepping), and Ritualists (Spirits). Both were horrible mechanics until Anet got their shit together and nerfed them (Dervs suffered the opposite problem originally, having no worthwhile mechanic and being nothing but warriors who were worse at warrioring). Fortunately the other professions had other attributes that proved semi-worthwhile, Paragons have none. Without usage of party wide shouts Paragons bring absolutely nothing to the table that isn't being done better already by the ranger.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
View Post
What you're suggesting is "buff paragons and they're instantly OP and need nerfing" and "paragons are outclassed"

So... Delete the profession? Replace with commando, pls. Sadly, thats the TL;DR version of it all. Un-counterable mechanics have always been bad for the game. Party-wide buffs likewise. Mix the two together and you have a recipe for disaster. Paragon skills and/or base game mechanics need serious changes before Paragons can exist in a worthwhile state.

Just thinking of a few things that could/need to be done:

* Completely scrap the mechanic of echoes. Shouts that get more powerful the more shouts you use will absolutely never work. These were really the capstone in the mountain of horrible ideas that is the paragon.

* Only 1 paragon party-wide shout can be active at any time (i.e. same mechanic as weapon spells). Obviously for the purpose of preventing mass shout stacking. This would let Anet go back and power up shouts to reasonable levels. Single target shouts should remain completely spammable, even though mostly uncounterable they can be balanced and require some skill to use.

* Perhaps give more powerful shouts an enforced downtime between reapplication so 100% chaining can't work. Some kind of "shout exhaustion" mechanic.

* Shouts reworked in such a way that they can be stronger the less allies are nearby. Otherwise Paragons will forever be doomed as an un-splittable class, which is always a great way to make a class irrelevant. One could perhaps tie this into the previously mentioned shout exhaustion mechanic.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Quote:
* Only 1 paragon party-wide shout can be active at any time (i.e. same mechanic as weapon spells). Obviously for the purpose of preventing mass shout stacking. This would let Anet go back and power up shouts to reasonable levels. Single target shouts should remain completely spammable, even though mostly uncounterable they can be balanced and require some skill to use. "Stand Your Ground!"/"Fall Back!"/"Incoming!"/"Never Surrender!"/"Never Give Up!"/"Can't Touch This!"
"GFTE!"

That wouldn't work because they aren't the problem, the echoes/finales/chants were. If you're on Fall Back! you aren't stationary, so you don't get the SYG bonus. We saw this with Invoke spike E/Ps that only used SYG+FB.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

Or just buff paragon's normally and give other profs more counters to shouts and chants. Every class has some useless skills - some of these skills could be made useful by being shout/chant removal skills.

Also, I should probably point out that rit weapon spells are unstrippable and are not OP for the most part. In fact, many are well balanced.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion View Post
"Stand Your Ground!"/"Fall Back!"/"Incoming!"/"Never Surrender!"/"Never Give Up!"/"Can't Touch This!"
"GFTE!"

That wouldn't work because they aren't the problem, the echoes/finales/chants were. If you're on Fall Back! you aren't stationary, so you don't get the SYG bonus. We saw this with Invoke spike E/Ps that only used SYG+FB.
Finales/echoes I already said remove completely, and Chants are included under the "only 1 party-wide effect rule" to begin with. So yeah, it would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
Or just buff paragon's normally and give other profs more counters to shouts and chants. Every class has some useless skills - some of these skills could be made useful by being shout/chant removal skills.

Also, I should probably point out that rit weapon spells are unstrippable and are not OP for the most part. In fact, many are well balanced. Hard counters to specific classes are dumb. All it does is encourage build wars where players are gambling skill slots to risk automatic wins.

As for Weapon Spells vs Shouts...

Rit weapon spells:

- Have a cast time (= interruptable)
- Generally have a higher cost or lower effect than other strippable protection.
- Can only have 1 at a time.
- Are single target.

Paragon shouts:

- Have 0 cast time in the majority of powerful ones.
- Have either adren cost or a fairly low energy cost (and paragons have infinite energy generation).
- Can stack as many as you like.
- Are mostly party-wide.

Don't try to compare the two.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

here you go, update vocal minority: hexed foe cannot shout/chant or be the target of a shout/chant. yw

Well of Silence already exists, anyway.

EDIT: New suggestion; make Dazed condition give shouts and chants a +1s casting time!

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

It wouldn't work because shouts aren't the problem:i.e. you're making paragons weaker than they have to be.

Make daze+ spell interrupts work on chants ala power drain. There's a start

Beguiling Haze/Skull crack could disable all paragon shouts/chants/echoes if it hits a shouting/chanting/echo-ing target.

Shroud of Silence could make shouts and chants shut up.

Or tweak bleeding to work with ulcerous lungs... bleed = shouts have a cast time.

Otyugh's Cry could be useful and remove shouts.

Primal Echoes could work on echoes.

Screaming Shot could remove chants/echoes.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder
View Post
Hard counters to specific classes are dumb. All it does is encourage build wars where players are gambling skill slots to risk automatic wins.

As for Weapon Spells vs Shouts...

Rit weapon spells:

- Have a cast time (= interruptable)
- Generally have a higher cost or lower effect than other strippable protection.
- Can only have 1 at a time.
- Are single target.

Paragon shouts:

- Have 0 cast time in the majority of powerful ones.
- Have either adren cost or a fairly low energy cost (and paragons have infinite energy generation).
- Can stack as many as you like.
- Are mostly party-wide.

Don't try to compare the two. Hard counters to specific classes are just fine. There's nothing "dumb" about it, and it would allow anet to buff shouts/chants without everyone whining about then being OP due to their unstripability.

Para chants can also be interrupted. While shouts can't be, I don't see why anet can't start adding casting times to them. Also, there are some shouts that are single-target, and iv been arguing for awhile that more shouts should be turned into targeted shouts. Same goes for chants. So yes, I will compare the two of them. I'm not talking about how chants/shouts are now, i'm talking about how they would be in an ideal update. An ideal update imo would be one in which chants/shouts were made to be more similar to weapon spells/enchantments, particularly chants which already have a casting time anyway.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

to be honest i think all shouts should affect everyone. they're not called "whispers". elite shouts should even affect enemies in a negative way.

Essence Snow

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

To all that say shouts are OP b/c they are uninteruptable and unstrippable. They are simply different not OP. One only needs to prep for them via anti shout/chant measures....ie...vocal minority...well of silence...cacaophony...heck blind/blurred vison will shut down a para. It's not hard to counter these things. One just needs to take premptive action instead of reactive measures. Anyone that plays a para knows how badly these shut paras down. I am more of the opinion that ppl simply do not want to bring said skills in their bars.

Kelvin Greyheart

Kelvin Greyheart

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
To all that say shouts are OP b/c they are uninteruptable and unstrippable. They are simply different not OP. One only needs to prep for them via anti shout/chant measures....ie...vocal minority...well of silence...cacaophony...heck blind/blurred vison will shut down a para. It's not hard to counter these things. One just needs to take premptive action instead of reactive measures. Anyone that plays a para knows how badly these shut paras down. I am more of the opinion that ppl simply do not want to bring said skills in their bars. People don't want to bring them because they are completely useless otherwise. If the other team is not running shouts, you then may as well have dead skills on your bar.

A game like Magic The Gathering can get away with effects that practically require a specific hard counter, or set of counters, because you have a sideboard and can tweak your deck between matches to prevent metagaming. You can also get away with having some cards, like Torpor Orb, that have extremely limited uses because you aren't forced to throw them in the deck for every matchup. Guild wars cannot because there isn't anything like a sideboard mechanic. As such it has dozens of effects that must be useless by necessity.

Any time you are FORCED to bring a skill to counteract some other effect, especially when that skill has next to zero use otherwise, you run into problems. Either you end up running sub optimal builds much of the time, or you end up playing an enormous game of rock paper scissors where the winner is largely favored before the match even starts.

The problem with shouts isn't that they cannot be countered, it's that the counters for them are so narrow in focus that they essentially have no other use, and as such you take a big risk bringing them. Furthermore, many of the counters are hard counters, meaning that if you do have them shouts are next to useless. It is far easier to just make shouts suck from a balance perspective than it is to bring them to any appreciable power level. You can simply make it so they do not see play, or you can try to balance them, and make counters actually have some use if you aren't facing shouts.

Remember, the best skills are seldom the ones that specifically ruin a particular strategy or excel in one area, but rather the ones that are universally useful, even when they are eclipsed by other, more limited, skills in specific areas.


OT, awaiting paragon rework. Put the imba out of it's misery already.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
To all that say shouts are OP b/c they are uninteruptable and unstrippable. They are simply different not OP. One only needs to prep for them via anti shout/chant measures....ie...vocal minority...well of silence...cacaophony...heck blind/blurred vison will shut down a para. It's not hard to counter these things. One just needs to take premptive action instead of reactive measures. Anyone that plays a para knows how badly these shut paras down. I am more of the opinion that ppl simply do not want to bring said skills in their bars. Blurred/blind do nothing to energy based shouts/chants. All it does is reduce spear DPS and adrenaline for GFTE/Anthem of Envy/"The Power Is Yours!". Chorus of Restoration/Energizing Chorus was only used in multi-paragon teams.

Vocal minority is ridiculously niche and easily countered by hex removal. Well of silence needs a kill so you can't reliably use it in PvP. Cacophony is garbage in PvE and nearly useless against shouts/chants that aren't spammed such as SYG , Defensive Anthem, Zealous Anthem, Song of Restoration, or FallBack!. It'd be like using Backfire on a Dervish.

There's a ton of things that make spells easy to interrupt: daze, migraine, arcane conundrum, Confusing Images, Frustration, etc.

The question we have to ponder is this: what makes shouts so imbalanced? They existed before Paragons. Fall Back/Incoming = Charge. Never surrender/never give up aren't that powerful.

So SYG+GFTE is to blame? I think it's more echoes/finales/chants (defensive anthem comes to mind along with Chorus of Restoration+Finale of restoration multi-paragon teams). If SYG is to blame, nerf it like WY!, make it end after 10 attacks (or if more generous, 10 attack skills).

I think chants need to have no aftercast regardless. Motivation is plain stupid on a paragon, with aftercast on chants.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
Blind/blurred hinder a para's e-management...thus do affect energy based shouts/chants to an extent.
Only inasmuch as infinite energy / 2 is less than infinite energy. Paragons can still easily spam energy shouts no problem in most cases.

Quote: Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
Any hex is easily countered by hex removal...that's why ppl use cover hexes. So if we make it so paragons HAVE to be hexed to not be godmode, then we also FORCE every team to play hexway? Yeah that makes for great build diversity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow View Post
Basically.....there's a chance that you might face anything....ie....blind wont help if your facing casters.....daze won't hinder physicals...a blocking skill is useless unless someone is hitting you. Everything is situational. Blind and daze both work against a full half of the professions. Anti shout is essentially useless against 9/10.

Essence Snow

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

lol para=godmode unless vs hexway? really?

anti-shout=1 skill out of many...is it really that horrid to take 1 skill? It's not like one has to devote an entire bar to counter shout/chants.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

A single hex like Vocal Minority is trivial to remove. To get long hexes like that to stick you need to overload the enemy's removal and a single character isn't going to accomplish that.
And promoting the hard counter concept isn't exactly great.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Vocal Minority is also AoE, and large AoE range at that. It's not going to be easy to remove them all without some lolwtf hex removal.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

The AoE counts for nothing.

Flame A

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2008

Order of Flame [FIRE]

P/

I had this funny idea about a leadership fix.
The problem is that paras get energy the more people are effected by their shouts. So big party= OP paragon small party=useless paragon. Thats the main problem. Thats why Anet doesnt buff them because paraway would be OP.

Solution:simple. Paragons get MORE powerful the more people they effect. Its really exponential, they get more energy back AND more allies benefit.The beneficial effect of more allies is EXPONENTIAL. So INVERT the leadership mechanic. Make paragons LOSE more energy the more allies are effected. Then the leadership trait would lessen the extra energy lost per ally. So when para is soloing, shouts get super cheap and para is not useless, and when para goes paraway, shouts cost so much they cant spam and are not OP.

Ive been playing with a paragon Main since NF came out. And the paragon issue really bugs me its so annoying to have your 20+ titlemaxed main as a broken class, I wanna max HoM so I gotta keep playing with it.

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame A
View Post
I had this funny idea about a leadership fix.
The problem is that paras get energy the more people are effected by their shouts. So big party= OP paragon small party=useless paragon. Thats the main problem. Thats why Anet doesnt buff them because paraway would be OP.

Solution:simple. Paragons get MORE powerful the more people they effect. Its really exponential, they get more energy back AND more allies benefit.The beneficial effect of more allies is EXPONENTIAL. So INVERT the leadership mechanic. Make paragons LOSE more energy the more allies are effected. Then the leadership trait would lessen the extra energy lost per ally. So when para is soloing, shouts get super cheap and para is not useless, and when para goes paraway, shouts cost so much they cant spam and are not OP.

Ive been playing with a paragon Main since NF came out. And the paragon issue really bugs me its so annoying to have your 20+ titlemaxed main as a broken class, I wanna max HoM so I gotta keep playing with it. Leadership has to give something to Paragons, not take it away. Having 1 professions primary negative while all the others are positive would take consistency away from the professions. The Paragon is highly dependent upon leadership since it only has 2 pips of energy regeneration so the best thing to do is switch how it gives energy. Here are a couple of deas...

Leadership: For every 5 ranks in Leadership you gain +1 energy regeneration(5 seconds) and +1 energy when an ally is affected by one of your shouts or chants. 5 Second cooldown

Leadership: For every rank in Leadership your shouts and chants base energy cost is reduced by 4%. For every 8 ranks you get +1 energy regeneration.