Update - Thursday, November 17, 2011

Update - Thursday, November 17, 2011

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...dates/20111117

So where do those Ettin appear now in Deldrimor Bowl?

I think one mob of Ettins sometimes went through the portal in to Griffon's Mouth and could not be killed. I'm guessing this is what the patch is for. I could be completely wrong though.

~

Paragons are now not so bad in smaller groups, I suppose.

Oh god, why buff paragons that way? Wasn't their e-management the one thing they nerfed back in nightfall?

Energy on Paragons wasn't really a huge problem before anyways; The problem was that shouts are inherently less worthwhile the less players you have. The only skill that really drained you before was EBSoH since all the (useful) high cost shouts still gave you half your energy back even in 4 man groups and were non-spammable.

Still, not a bad change. If Anet ever gets around to nerfing SY and forcing paragons to rely on their energy skills more then this will be essential to paragons in 4 man areas.

It is very likely that the leadership change taking place now is the result of its early herald in the previous build's description. See here.

According to what we heard at PAX, there may be a deeper revamp of Paragons in the future. Hopefully the live team just assumed the game would be better with this change now than later, since it really does more good than harm.

The main nerfs (for PvP) were to Defensive Anthem, Never Surrender, Stand Your Ground, Bladeturn Refrain, Song of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, and mostly importantly Aggressive Refrain.

I think they actually listened to the people on here who were complaining about not being able to get the festival hats. I have to say I'm impressed that they actually did something about it.

Interesting change for the paragons. For those who might not realize it, this only buffs them in 4-man areas, as their max energy gain remains the same.

RA experts, anything that can be done with paras now?

No. Paragons are viable in 8v8 situations, but only barely, and become almost useless on split. Energy management is not the issue, but rather, the ineffectual party-based skillset. The very well deserved nerfs came around because the Paragons' shouts and chants were a combination of the problems with "passive defensive web" skills like Aegis and the Ritualist's weapon spells.

Paragons will not become viable in RA until they have some combination of a stronger IAS option, useful targeted skills, and become not as specialized to support physicals or casters.

You didn't answer my question. I asked where the Ettins appear NOW. I knew about the portal situation as it did happen once for me on my Necromancer, but if they moved them somewhere else, where are they NOW?

Ummm...go look?

its funny how the paragon update was already added a week ago...

Just went through 25 wins on RA playing a paragon. ^^ Was with a really good team, though. I took the Enraged Spear build from rangers, switched Barb Spear with "Go For the Eyes!", and was spamming 7 energy gain very often. Didn't need expertise at all for energy management. The new flux kept beast mastery at 14.

But then again, I always thought paragons had great energy management with leadership - when it fully worked. Still, that's the only "viable" build I can think of for RA paragons from this update at the moment.

So I guess the biggest improvement is for targeted shouts like "its just a flesh wound". In fact, I would think that this makes IJAFW cost only 1 energy, right?

Maybe this forshadows the changing of other shouts to be targeted shouts?

It costs 4 Energy still.... only 1 ally/party member is affected...
The update has nothing but increased the selection pool from which a paragon can rely on its energy; we're still stuck running the same builds as we did before...

You need to play Paragon more.
They're downright the best dazers in RA, and can manage daze better than a Ranger w/ Broad Head Arrow and come with higher dps and def too.
EL Pet is pretty powerful too, though, especially with flux.

But I liked farming Carlotta.

One ally = 2 energy now, so it should cost 3.

And their daze skills are more viable now thanks to better energy management.

I went to the isle of the nameless and tested.

Before this change, IJAFW was kind of wierd. It gave 2 energy if a condition was removed because it counted the condition removal and the speed boost as seperate shouts. If you dont believe me, go check out the page for this skill on guildwiki.

Now, it gives 3 energy if a condition was removed. Take a necro to the isle of the nameless and have it inflict bleeding on its self. Without the condition removal, IJAFW will only return 1 energy (like it would have done prior to this update if a condition was not removed). Now, oddly enough, it returns 3 energy when a condition is removed. I have no idea why, but it does.

You forgot Incoming

And Mending Refrain...which was changed from a solid anti-pressure skill (perma +4 regen for any ally) for the entire team, to erm, the Wammo's Mending (+3 for self only). Only usable on self and therefore pointless. The regen reduction was adding insult to injury.

Gee, sorry. I'll go sit in a corner. The update had just went live and I was predicting the mob that I thought had been moved for those who might be baffled why the devs would alter a mob of ettins 6.5 years after putting them there.

Yay for Carlotta, it's always been so silly that you had to follow her from far not to kill her, or watch the path on wiki/do it by heart instead of atually doing as the quest required. I love that cutie!

and angelic bond+ some more motivation skills

I would guess that since so many people are working on their HOM, they were starting to get too many complaints about people not being able to vanquish Deldrimor Bowl because the Ettin group was disappearing.

Possible. Strange then that they haven't fixed Thalus Chute too, a patrol can walk in Icedome if i remember correctly...and after 400+ mobs is kinda annoying.

Paragons were useless in PvP before this "buff" and they're still equally useless.

The fix was to take the heat off of PvE paragons in 4 man areas. Paras are usually the last to be picked on a ZM in a 4 person area. Of course that's because most paras can't run anything but imbagon and non paras don't know any paras other than imbagons.

Sorry, but there are no paragon builds other than imbagon. Motivation is horrible, Command is for imbagons who want to be worse at protecting the party. The only skill that can possibly contend with SY is ToF, which requires a very specific party setup and can be run on a imbagon build anyways. And imbagon worked just fine in 4 person areas anyways, so this update really does nothing at all in almost all situations until SY is nerfed.

A 4 paragon mid/backline in a physical heavy build is still pretty damn strong in PvE. But the PvE meta is take a bunch of individually strong builds and throw them together, rather than take a team build that synergizes well, which is the niche paragons fill.

The old grumpy nitpicker man living inside me me loves the Jarrel and Carlotta changes.
More than 6 years complaining about those finally over.

Now.... I wonder if they'll fix also the other model inconsistencies, like Orion looking like Howland the Elementalist in pre-Searing.

I may take my paragon again to see how it works now.

The energy limit in Leadership is still there. Not it's just capped at 4 allies instead at 8 allies, but they get with 4 allies the same energy they'll get with 8 allies before.
They just need less allies to get the same energy, but still can't get more than a certain amount per shout or chant.
Several paragon skills that benefit from nearby allies are capped at 4 allies too so this change is also more consistent with those skills.

The only real change is that paragons suck now a bit less in areas with party size of 4, such as RA, Codex, Training Arenas and the first areas in Istan.


The may problem I have with paragons comes from their shouts and chants affecting all allies or all party members and their triggering conditions being too specific and non-versatile.
That makes their skills affect 0...all party members, or 0...all allies.
How do you balance something to be good when it may affect nobody and everybody? You just can't, for the same reason you can't divide by 0 with elementary arithmetic.

If you increase the numbers, they become too strong with many allies. If you decrease them, they become too weak with few allies.
If you go all fighters or all casters, you can bring high synergy for the party. If you go mixed, they suck like hell..
So with pugs you are forced to go Imbagon, and in RA well, you are lucky if they don't report you for leeching as soon as they see you are a paragon.

To fix that, first, you limit the effect to a number of allies.
Just like a mix between the Angelic Bond 'once per party' effect and the ritualist weapon spell trigerring counters.
After X uses by different allies, the effect would disappear from the rest of allies.
Then, you remove the highly conditional effects that make their skills either good for fighters or casters, but rarely both, to bring synergy with all professions.

For example, from this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) Party members in earshot gain 30...78...90 Health with their next spell.

To this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) The next 1...2...3 times a party member within earshot casts a spell or uses an attack skill, they gain 30...78...90 Health, and Aria of Restoration ends on all other allies.

There may be a better way to note it, though. But the point is:
- All party members get the effect.
- Each one can trigger the effect once.
- Affects both spells and attack skills to maximize how many party members can benefit from it.
- After 1...2...3 of them activates the effect, the rest lose it.
That way. 1...2...3 people may get the effect. Not 0...all.

Your example leaves MUCH to be desired. Completely random, untargetted healing is horrible. What happens when you cast it and 3 people at 599/600 health get the effect? That makes me cry just thinking about it. Or do you stop the entire team's attacking/casting while the weakened players get a spell off to get a very minor healing effect? Sorry, just won't work.

If you re-wrote it to be "The next 1...2...3 times a party member with the 1...2...3rd lowest or less health within earshot casts a spell or uses an attack skill, they gain 30...78...90 Health, and Aria of Restoration ends on all other allies.", it might work out OK. That sounds like it might not even be possible to do, not sure on how far you can go with GW skills. Certainly a lot of other shouts have an even harder time fitting into this paradigm.

Would something like changing a few of the paragon shouts to be similar to the Urn of Saint Victor's effect be a "middle ground?" You could have abilities that heavily impact a single person, or impact the group in a minor manor.

For Example: (I know it's a warrior shout, bite me)

"Save Yourselves!"

Allies within earshot gain +80 armor. Reduce maximum armor bonus by 10 for each ally within earshot.

This would make the paragon focus more about positioning than just sitting down as a turret.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean party members, rather than allies. If I'm reading your skill correctly, if all eight party members were within earshot, they would each only gain ten armor? Seems like it would be more effective to just spam "Watch Yourself!" instead.

The problem with "fixing" paragons, is that shouts are either grossly overpowered, or terribly underpowered. When it comes to instant cast, irremovable buffs, there really is no middle ground. (If there is, I must be too blind to see it)

Yep. That's even better. Skills that 'balance themselves'. Like the ritualist spirits that lose health when the effect triggers.
The more people benefiting from the effect, the less it lasts.

Well, that was a quick and dirty bad example of something easier to balance that a skill that affects a range of people from 'none' to 'all' on the spot. It takes way more than that to come up with something decent.

Hm... from the previous post, It comes to my mind that It could be even better if the effect had a 'pool' of health.
You know, you 'chant', and the chant generates a a pool of 100...300...400 HP.
Someone that had full health won't trigger the effect. Someone that had 40 points of current health under their maximum would take just 400HP.
Each time a party member triggers the effect they are healed up to a max from that 'pool', and when the 'pool' is consumed, all lose the effect.

Yep. That could be even easier to balance.

A pool of health should technically be possible too, seems I guess it wouldn't be too dissimiliar to the way the old Life Sheath used to work. Though at the same time, bear in mind that skill never saw much play, either.

I'm not sure there's any need to remove Finales (infact Echos could do with an icon on healthbars in the same way enchantments and weapon spells get one). I think it's an interesting mechanic and it works fine, just in one or two cases the effects need to be a bit more passive, if multiple triggering from shouts is supposedly the issue. Even then, it's really only Finale of Restoration that should be an issue.

The effects off Purifying Finale, Energizing Finale, and Blazing Finale aren't quite powerful enough to be worth worrying about compared to what else is on offer in other professions that fills a similiar purpose, unless while in teams of multiple Paragons (and then, Energizing Finale would be a wasted skill slot anyway because if the entire team is Paragons nobody is going to need all that energy anyway because everybody would have Leadership).

Finale of Restoration just needs to heal a bit slower and less stackably, so instead of:
Echo. (10...30...35 seconds.) Target ally gains 15...63...75 Health the next 5 times a shout or chant ends on that ally. Cannot target spirits.

It could be something like.
Echo. (10...30...35 seconds.) Every time a shout or chant ends on target ally, that ally gains 5...17...20 Health with their next 1...2...3 attacks or spells. Cannot target spirits.

The healing would be enough to warrant the skill slot usage, but would not benefit multiple shout spam as using another shout before the the last three charges were used up would not increase the overall healing gain.

And yes it's unremovable, but so what? The effect is the same as Vigorous Spirit, which maybe be a removable enchantment but costs a measly 5e and is on a 4s recharge (so is easily replaced if removed anyway). Vigorous Spirit has the benefit of not needing to pump out a shout every 6 seconds or so to keep the affect going, whereas a Finale of Restoration like that would have the benefit of not fueling Shatter Enchantment damage.

As for Chants, with the exception of Defensive Anthem, once again the unremovability isn't an issue either as they don't provide on-going benefits and have a cast time. They all do something once, then end. That's the equivalent of a spell doing something instantly after the cast time and then being done...which is most spells in the game and that's not considered overpowered. Ballad of Restoration for example is basically an unreliable version of Divine Healing on a slower recharge.

The only issues with Chants is that they triggered Echos. Of which the only one that was truly problematic really was Finale of Restoration (Turning a party-wide 75 heal - which is rather reasonable - into a 150 heal), which would be solved with the above change.
Otherwise, the Chants are all rather weak in general and most could do with a buff.

So the only thing that really needs thinking about is indeed Shouts, that do tend to provide ongoing unremovable benefits (like extra armour, healing and/or speed), and don't have the same hindrances in activation that Chants do either.

IMO, one of the worst parts of being a Para in PvE is that since they are oh so heavy into shouts, you get into an all or nothing game when it comes to counters.
- Most areas of the game, there's nothing stopping you from buffing non-stop, in unstrippable ways.
- And then you come up to a mob with a few casters with Vocal Minority, and you're basically flat out screwed. There's no way to remove the hex without another profession, the mobs can generally reapply it in a heartbeat, and while it's on, you're just sitting there tossing your spear without any buffs or energy management.

This becomes even more compounded if you're taking a team of paras, since VM is AoE... you're basically all or nothing.
I'm unaware of any other skill that basically nullifies an entire profession.
Blindness on melee or dazed on casters is bad, but it's not a complete shutdown, generally have shorter duration, are harder to make AoE, and conditions are generally easier to remove than hexes.

Yeah Vocal Minority is horrendously overpowered; But also so specific in its uses that nobody wants to use it. It's about as badly designed as a skill can be - it will win the game for you against Paragons, and is an utterly wasted slot against anything else.

Needs to be scrapped and redone, or just be more particular like "the next 1...2 shouts used fail" with a side effect like adding a condition or doing some damage. Maybe make it cheap or on a fast recharge so it can double up as a reasonable cover hex for other things too.

Leadership never changed from its Beta incarnation. Leadership's only real nerfs were indirect, via "Watch Yourself!" and "Go for the Eyes!" gaining recharge times.

You might be thinking of Dervishes, whose Mysticism used to grant 2 health and .5 energy per rank during the Beta event, reduced to 1 and .333 on release.

Indeed... The old " zergway" nerf damaged a lot of skills and the fact that a ranger or warrior can pump more damages than a paragon has still a big negative impact...

Not considering the fact that not nerfing at all the current meta wouldn't do anything even if the paragon had had a better buff... Taking El/N with aphony would probably be done by many...

Vocal minority really isn't as overpowered as one would think when used against a paragon heavy build.

That being said, it is still a piss poor designed skill as it is a direct counter, which is not something the game ever needs.