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Why?

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Society Of Souls [Argh]

N/Me

04 Jan 2012 at 14:36 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can do Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion HM no problems with 7 heroes, and I don't use cons or 2 Nec / 2 Mes / 2 Rit.

There are a few tough areas out there with 7H (DoA HM, UW HM), but I find most of the game is too easy.

@above - that's 18 armour + 20 from Cracked Armour or almost 40. -40 armour doubles your unboosted damage. Are you really claiming that's not significant?

Good for you, how many hours a day do you play? Like I said there are people that can do anything in the game, but generally they are the ones on the wiki who have an average of 8 hours or more a day playing.

That isn't normal, and that is not who the game should be balanced for. If you do anything for a long time every single day you should get good at it. You should also realize 99% of the world will not spend that much time at a video game.

And you should be helpful to the rest of the community and post builds, screenshots, and walkthroughs so everyone can do it without having to find another person.

Surgo

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2011

04 Jan 2012 at 14:47 - 42

Jeydra does post builds, screenshots, and walkthroughs. He has been incredibly helpful to those of us new to using heroes.

You are also begging the question, hardcore. Stop doing that.

Legendary Elementalist

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2011

E/

04 Jan 2012 at 14:54 - 43

@Jeydra
in 99% of areas destroying balled group in few seconds isn't a problem, but:
- after killing a group it's a bad thing to have cooldown
- balling with heroes playing as ele isn't always easy and fast

If you want to play smoothly then you want nearby nukes, and if those aren't dots, then searing flames/rodgort spam is something that many players would love to see viable in hm, like it was in pre-hm 2007 (i mean sf with that year).

Again, weaken armor is only adjanced. In many cases it isn't enough.
Yes, the game is pretty easy on hm. Yes, I've done almost everything in gw. Yes, my teambuild pwns everything, but eles aren't main damage dealers there, nor am I.
But just many of us want that good old ele back, without having to wait for a cooldown of cc, with being able to just nuke everything down with searing flames or whatever on hm. And all you need for melee is just splinter + SoH (and this one isn't necessary). And melees (including sins) are very hard to disable in PvE these days, with 7 heroes. Tbh, all you need is bugged asuran scan (you can't miss and mobs can't block you) and sometimes IAU if there are heavy knock downs. Sins are no longer vulnerable to shutdown on HM.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

04 Jan 2012 at 15:23 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@above - Elementalists are actually the best healers in the game. If you're thinking of "support" as stuff like Unsteady Ground and Blinding Flash, then by far the bigger issue is that it's better to overload damage over these skills. After all, why use Blinding Flash if you don't need it to stay alive?

Elementalists are the best "healers" in the game by being monks, not by being elementalists. They are not controling the elements to make epic or tactical party support effects, as expected from their flavor. They are spamming monk protection skills with a cheap infinite energy elite skill. It's not like GW2 where water eles can heal the party while still acting like elementalists. And although the water line is getting closer to its GW2 counterpart in the upcoming update, and probably will get even more with the second update, for now elementalist healers are disguised monks and nothing else.

Elementalist support skills either rely on a "epic" mixture of damage, support and AoE range, but then they get shafted by long cooldowns and the damage gets nerfed by HM; or they rely on focused, single target disabling skills (Blinding Flash) that are key in the PvP format but irrelevant in how current PvE works (where it's all about mass aoe destruction, mass aoe disruption and a army of minions and spirits).

In this regard, the support skills in the update are going in the right direction. The massive damage plus the combination of blind/ cracked armor/ weakness that the new Shockwave + the lesser HM armor provides is far more worthwhile in PvE than a single target disabling skill, and the high risk of death makes it more exciting as well. The decrease in recharge time of Unsteady Ground (plus the extra damage) is a neafty bonus to an already decent support skill. And so on.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

04 Jan 2012 at 15:33 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Elementalists are the best "healers" in the game by being monks, not by being elementalists.

RITUALISTS
MONKS
DERVS
PARAGON
ELEMENTALIST

Sorry, I was just naming the professions that can heal your party. Monk is in there, right, but "monking" seems to just be the verb of not letting your party be dead. Eles abuse their primary attribute for energy management, and that's fine. It's what they do best. Same goes for necromancers with SR (not much so since SR nerf). Also note: new Mist Form heals too.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

04 Jan 2012 at 16:17 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

In a sense I can understand the frustration of Eles wanting to have the same effectiveness in HM as the rits. But different professions fill different roles too. For example, warriors use weapons that are affected by target armor, yet they are one of the most effective characters in GW in terms of tanking, SY, damage, and buffs.

Warrior damage also largely ignores armor. Only base weapon damage is reduced; all bonus damage and buff damage from stuff like Strength of Honor is armor-ignoring.

Quote:

Similarly eles shouldn't be just about damage because every classes in GW have to be able to dish out their own damage and ANet has to balance out those damage numbers to keep the classes balanced. Eles have to find their own roles or niche then they can really be the best at something useful for the team and yet not be overpowered relative to the other classes.

Eh, eles have found different roles. They're reasonably good PvE skill users, they're the best single-target healers/protectors in the game thanks to Ether Renewal, and they're very good options for the times when snares or party protection are required and other options are available for whatever reason. Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

04 Jan 2012 at 16:29 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

Not only that; as shown by your own post, there's also something else they can't do very well: use their own skills (and the exceptions are not the rule). Which is ALSO getting fixed with the ele update, at least for the elites.

I did not create an elementalist to have him use assassin elites, or to cast protection magic on my allies.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

04 Jan 2012 at 16:31 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Elementalist

And melees (including sins) are very hard to disable in PvE these days, with 7 heroes...Sins are no longer vulnerable to shutdown on HM.

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

04 Jan 2012 at 16:34 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

I don't play with an assassin, but can't zealous weapons deal with the problem?

Legendary Elementalist

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2011

E/

04 Jan 2012 at 16:53 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How wrong you are...all that spam comes at a heavy price. You're working with an energy pool in the high 20s-low 30s of which half is constantly being thrown back into a chain. Any screw ups or net deficits due to e-denial and kiss your DPS goodbye. Scan came along and negated one of the more pesky shutdowns, I'll grant you that, but you still need to have the energy available to actually use it.

Zealous daggers, double hits, critical eye and Lotus Strike say hello. Also, if there is really heavy e-denial just auto attack for few seconds and with SoH + Splinter you will do good dmg anyway. Btw, i have no problems with energy denial even on ranger without critical strikes (zealous + lotus strike is enough for most e-denial, well and the sin with the ability of fulling from 0 to 30 ene in 3 seconds can do well in 98% cases). The same goes with WE warrior, yea sure there are 4-5 or so areas when they will pwn you, but casters and especially eles do have troubles with heavy energy stealing as well (well, 4 esurges at once will disable anything but adrenal warrior, but soh + splinter dagger spammer can often outdamage ele on hm with just auto attack...). With no to normal energy denial any semi-decent ranger/warrior/sin that spams dagger chains should never notice energy problems, the exception goes to paragon and other crazy dagger spammers, but not to the holy trynity of dagger spamming.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

04 Jan 2012 at 16:59 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Eh, eles have found different roles. They're reasonably good PvE skill users, they're the best single-target healers/protectors in the game thanks to Ether Renewal, and they're very good options for the times when snares or party protection are required and other options are available for whatever reason. Pretty much the only thing they can't do well in HM is *drumroll* damage. That's what's getting fixed, ideally, in this update.

That is fine but eles shouldn't need to defer to monk skills to protect and as Diogo said, this would be fixed with the ele update. Or the ele can be a snare specialist, which is also a form of protection for the team.

Anyway, my point is Eles shouldn't just be considered damage nukers that out-damages everyone as that would put them in an overpowered position to be nerfed. With the current pve meta of using minions, spirits, protective spirit, shelter, cons, it would make pve too easy if eles only need to stay in the backline and aoe nuke everything and people would say that with the ele update, pve has become even easier thus worse than before.

Adjust the ele damage accordingly so it is comparable with the other professions but not make them overpowered since, unlike other professions, many of the ele skills are aoe. Eles need to fill a more specific role be it protection, snares, or something else.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

04 Jan 2012 at 17:07 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

I don't play with an assassin, but can't zealous weapons deal with the problem?

You have to critical to make net returns on the chain which is especially important on Death Blossom (x2 hits). Autoattacks aren't going to deliver the punch you want and places like City HM flat out stop the build in it's tracks. If for some reason you are scanning everything, as in Gloom HM or some periods in Slavers Exile, then the extra DB hit is also consumed leaving very little left to play with for support skills.

@Legendary: You aren't gaining 30e in 3 seconds, just stop the silly hyperbole. Ele's will turn out fine and melee can still be shut down in HM in spite of scan.

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

04 Jan 2012 at 19:18 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Not only that; as shown by your own post, there's also something else they can't do very well: use their own skills (and the exceptions are not the rule). Which is ALSO getting fixed with the ele update, at least for the elites.

I did not create an elementalist to have him use assassin elites, or to cast protection magic on my allies.

Well, that's largely the result of two things. First, most ele elites have been, up to this point, big damage skills. There are a few notable exceptions, but as Jeydra noted before, it's really pretty pointless to waste time blinding or dazing a group when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds. Retooling elites to do supportive tasks that matter in PvE (instant big shutdown / cracked armor application, knockdowns, easy speed boosts, etc) means that eles can do that sort of stuff if they want and be more effective. They probably still won't, but that's where the armor rebalance comes in: it'll let eles use their own skills effectively, instead of relying on other professions'.

Aaaaand then there's the second big problem, which is that PvE skills can outdamage pretty much anything (single-target, at least) that any profession can muster. There's no way they should buff profession-specific skills to compete universally with PvE skills, so the only real option is to nerf the PvE skills to be useful for supportive functions only (a ranged KD at instant speed is just fine on its own, it doesn't need to do 80 armor-ignoring damage too).

The first problem is, hopefully, getting fixed in this update. The second problem is affecting all professions, not just the ele, and I hope that it gets looked at somewhere along the line, but I doubt that it will because they don't want to scare off their audience before GW2 comes out.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

05 Jan 2012 at 00:17 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Well, that's largely the result of two things. First, most ele elites have been, up to this point, big damage skills. There are a few notable exceptions, but as Jeydra noted before, it's really pretty pointless to waste time blinding or dazing a group when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds.

That's the mesmers vs eles debate in the past when the mesmer was a weaker class. The ele players laughed at the mesmer players and said, in this forum, what is the point of interrupting and denial when you would generally be better served by outright killing it in a few seconds (i.e. eles were overpowered at that time). The best denial is, of course, death!

It ends up that if you can easily kill a target then interrupting it becomes POINTLESS! And eles would become way overpowered and needs to be nerfed, again! With today's meta of using spirits, minions, PS, shelter, cons, the ele can easily stay in the backline and aoe nuke everything. I doubt a dumber ele that doesn't need any skills to mow down everything is what we need to improve PvE right now.

Quote:

Retooling elites to do supportive tasks that matter in PvE (instant big shutdown / cracked armor application, knockdowns, easy speed boosts, etc) means that eles can do that sort of stuff if they want and be more effective. They probably still won't, but that's where the armor rebalance comes in: it'll let eles use their own skills effectively, instead of relying on other professions'.

On the contrary, eles should have more interesting gameplay roles than just nuke everything with high AoE damage. Be it healing or protection or snares, mesmers are the interrupts/denial specialists, so eles can be the protection/snares specialists. Everyone wants to be a specialist of outright damage nowadays and be grossly overpowered, given today's PvE meta of spirits and minions. We dont need to make PvE dumber than what it already is.

Why?

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

Society Of Souls [Argh]

N/Me

05 Jan 2012 at 01:37 - 55

pve skills are not op. Sorry but doing 80 damage every so often isn't worth bringing. the knockdown is worthless in pve. when you can have a mesmer w/ esurge shred groups i don't think 80 every so often is a big deal. Oh and then spirit spammers, minion bombers, etc, etc, etc. the only pve skill that i really like is summon spirits.

the rest are cute but i think there are plenty of better options.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

05 Jan 2012 at 04:23 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

RITUALISTS
MONKS
DERVS
PARAGON
ELEMENTALIST

Sorry, I was just naming the professions that can heal your party. Monk is in there, right, but "monking" seems to just be the verb of not letting your party be dead. Eles abuse their primary attribute for energy management, and that's fine. It's what they do best. Same goes for necromancers with SR (not much so since SR nerf). Also note: new Mist Form heals too.

Its more like Eles abuse a certain skill in their primary attribute(Ether Renewal). It is a problem that one Ele can keep an entire party alive better than two monks. A necro's SR is where all their energy comes from and its capped at 3 times every 15 seconds. Ether Renewal allows infinite spamming of high energy prots and infuse health with an endless pool of energy.

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

05 Jan 2012 at 04:30 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by spun ducky

Hard Mode - Reduce armor level for Hard Mode enemies by 3 and raise maximum health by 20 for each level above 20.

If this is truly the case, am I reading it correctly when I say:

Take the Kappa in The Undercity. In HM, they're Level 26. Does that mean they lose 18 armor and gain 120 health?

Likewise, take the Shiro'ken Assassin in Raisu Palace. In HM, they're Level 30. Does that mean they lose 30 armor and gain 200 health?

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

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W/

05 Jan 2012 at 05:12 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

If this is truly the case, am I reading it correctly when I say:

Take the Kappa in The Undercity. In HM, they're Level 26. Does that mean they lose 18 armor and gain 120 health?

Likewise, take the Shiro'ken Assassin in Raisu Palace. In HM, they're Level 30. Does that mean they lose 30 armor and gain 200 health?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Creature

The 3 armor less per level would bring mobs down to NM armor. Warriors and Paragons get an armor bonus of 20 while Sins, Dervs and Rangers get 10. Warriors also get their +20 physical armor and Ranger their +30 vs elemental. So -3 armor per level does make sense, but the health does not because there's no way to tell what the hp increase is.

I am hoping the hp increase is 25-30 per level tbh.

Instead of the equation given on the wiki it will be this

3*20 + armor bonus = base armor

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

05 Jan 2012 at 06:04 - 59

What does this do to the AR 140 monstrosities that lurk in random areas? Taking 18 off of that for Jade Armor's really doesnt fix much...

Realistically I don't think this is going to weaken current team builds much. Even the most armor-ignoring focused builds still have a good amount of armor-respecting damage. The break even point appears to be around 40%, if more than that of your damage is armor-respecting then you pull ahead. Top tier builds that are run now hover around 20-50%, even the builds hurt worst by this are only down a mere ~10%.

Whether this works with before or after Cracked Armor will be interesting to see.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

05 Jan 2012 at 06:34 - 60

This whole update could have been changed to
"Cracked armour now negates 40 AL instead of 20" meh.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

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The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

05 Jan 2012 at 08:18 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

What does this do to the AR 140 monstrosities that lurk in random areas? Taking 18 off of that for Jade Armor's really doesnt fix much...

I am sure they will be brought back down to 80 AR but with compensated HP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Realistically I don't think this is going to weaken current team builds much. Even the most armor-ignoring focused builds still have a good amount of armor-respecting damage. The break even point appears to be around 40%, if more than that of your damage is armor-respecting then you pull ahead. Top tier builds that are run now hover around 20-50%, even the builds hurt worst by this are only down a mere ~10%.

It's not supposed to weaken armor-ignoring damage by that much. It's for balancing armor-ignoring damage with armor-respecting damage. Some of the problem skills that dealt way too much damage with perks had to be taken care of and their nerfs will be noticeable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Whether this works with before or after Cracked Armor will be interesting to see.

Cracked armor will be just a little less important but should still be in any team build somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

This whole update could have been changed to "Cracked armour now negates 40 AL instead of 20" meh.

This would just be irresponsible and lazy.

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

05 Jan 2012 at 11:04 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

I am sure they will be brought back down to 80 AR but with compensated HP.

Sorry but I'm still try to make calculations and understand how the new hm stats will be, but how get that idea on the basis of te numbers given below?

Quote:

Reduce armor level for Hard Mode enemies by 3 and raise maximum health by 20 for each level above 20.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

05 Jan 2012 at 11:40 - 63

@Legendary Elementalist - Shutdown on melee is more than energy denial; it includes blind, Blurred Vision, snares, and blocks. You can Asuran Scan everything, but there's an energy cost to that. You can rely on your backline to clean you, but it won't be instant. I run Elementalist(s) in my 7H teambuilds and they're important damage dealers. I myself deal about 70 DPS from full cast range. Elementalists are also capable of laying down AoE nuke after AoE nuke at the moment, it's just not worth it to do so because of the low damage.

@Why? - YMLAD is a fantastically strong PvE skill, one of the best in the game. Of course YMLAD on its own is not that impressive, but when you back it up with AP its effective cooldown goes to maybe 5s, which makes it really really really really strong indeed. KDs do matter (a lot); a KDed monster is unable to cast (heal), not to mention dodge projectiles (spirit attacks).

@Kunder - no matter how much armour Jade Armour might have, this proposed change + Cracked Armour will still effectively double Elementalist damage. It's going to matter. I seem to be the only person out there using Elementalist heroes though, so I'll say most teams don't have armour-sensitive damage.

@Mintha Syl - that means that a level 21 monster has 20 more health than normal, but also 3 less armour. A level 22 monster has 40 more health than normal, and 6 less armour, and so on.

I'm not going to comment on whether Elementalists should be able to do something other than nuke everything with big AoE damage. It's just not objective, and different people have different ideas on what the game should play like. As far as I'm concerned, there is only what is overpowered and what isn't.

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

05 Jan 2012 at 13:50 - 64

@Jeydra
ok this is how far i got as well, but that means, taking the case named by Kunder, that a monster with 140 AR at level 26 will now have 3*6=18 armor less, thus getting to 122, still pretty high. So I didn't get how Swingline calculated they will have "back down to 80 AR". Simply that.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

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W/

05 Jan 2012 at 13:56 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Sorry but I'm still try to make calculations and understand how the new hm stats will be, but how get that idea on the basis of te numbers given below?

What Jeydra said but with WiK mobs it will be a little different. Wik mob stats were uped in difficulty because regular HM content such as VQs were too easy for verteran players. This led to a gross increase in mob stats for WiK mobs, WoC just increased the actual number of mobs instead of stats because Anet learned that just increasing stats leads to frustrated players. If I am not mistaken the Jade Armors in WiK do not follow the normal equations. Either their loss in armor will be compensated in more HP than normal or they will be nerfed.

If they do get compensated your looking at a ballpark increase of 440 hp. So your looking at jades having 1000+ hp.

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

05 Jan 2012 at 14:25 - 66

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Creature
The basic formula is: 3 * creature level + armor bonus
Most creature's maximum health follows the simple formula level*20+80

That's what I needed to know. So basically, from level 20 on, they will have NM armor (yay), but gain double the HP (40 instead of 20), I suppose.

The idea to buff Cracked Armor would be bad. In this update, CA will have the tactical utility it should: have the medium/ heavy armored profisseions take more damage, and pass through any other additional defenses. Not be a huge clunky gimmick needed to make an entire profession less useless.

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

05 Jan 2012 at 15:16 - 67

Why raise by 3 and not 5? Similar to those foci... -5AL+20hp.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

05 Jan 2012 at 15:40 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm not going to comment on whether Elementalists should be able to do something other than nuke everything with big AoE damage. It's just not objective, and different people have different ideas on what the game should play like. As far as I'm concerned, there is only what is overpowered and what isn't.

Which profession doesn't want to nuke everything with big AoE damage? Mesmers used to have more single-targeting damage skills but they asked for the same thing. Since their skills tend to also have a secondary benefit (e.g. interrupts), then their AoE damage should be more limited.

If elementalists only does big AoE damage, then with the current meta of minions and spirits, elementalists would be the easiest character class to play. They would be essentially brainless, no challenges, and the fastest to clear any area. ANet might as well remove interrupts and other damage mitigation. Forget aoe daze from technobabble, the best denial is death.

KotCR

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

[DVDF]

P/

05 Jan 2012 at 15:46 - 69

@HigherMinion
As stated, it basically means standard enemies in HM will have standard armour levels even after level 20 (60 for casters, 70 for light armour profs, 80 for heavy armour profs), but will instead get a much greater HP increase than they did previously for levels over 20.

While it's a good change, I do hope they'll still have the odd enemy with a superior armour level, as befitting their lore (such as Jade Constructs, Golems or those Stone Elemental thingies).. Nothing wrong with armour ignoring damage still being superior in some cases, that's the pont afterall, so long as it's not superior in all cases. Will help keep some flavour, rather than having armour-respecting and armour-ignoring damage equal in all cases (which would defeat the purpose of armour-ignoring stuff being in-game at all).

Hopefully as a general rule armour ignoring will tend to be better against heavily armoured professions, and regular damage better against more lightly armoured professions. With exceptions to both in some cases depending on creatures, of course.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

05 Jan 2012 at 15:51 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Why raise by 3 and not 5? Similar to those foci... -5AL+20hp.

The focus mod is +5 armor and -20 hp.

Players can't stack innate armor bonus' 6-10 times like mobs can so a +3 armor -20 hp mod seems incredibly weak for players who rely on equipment to break 500 hp. Therefore the inscription gives +5 armor at the cost of 20 hp.

If mobs had +5 armor per level no one would play a ele or ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

Hopefully as a general rule armour ignoring will tend to be better against heavily armoured professions, and regular damage better against more lightly armoured professions. With exceptions to both in some cases depending on creatures, of course.

That is how its supposed to be. If you want creatures such as Mursaat or Shirokin to be stronger due to lore then a global buff of 5 or 10 damage reduction should be implemented to preserve the balance between professions. Same for Wurms due to their size and thick hide.

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

05 Jan 2012 at 15:59 - 71

Is the higher health really something that deepwound cannot solve?

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

05 Jan 2012 at 16:03 - 72

the higher the hp the better deep wound becomes

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

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05 Jan 2012 at 16:07 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Is the higher health really something that deepwound cannot solve?

Deep Wound is not entirely realistic. There are very few skills that possess the effect and most are in the hands of Wars,Paras and Sins. We know why people don't use those heroes though. Your still better off going AoE unless the mobs are so hard to kill that it calls for spiking single mobs. Usually with content like WoC there are too many mobs that AoE is far better than going the single spike route.

The only time you should be running Deep Wound realistically is if your on a Warrior in a Z quest group and your not forced to tank.

EDIT: Forgot about FH. FH will become important. Too important if you ask me. Damn PvE only skills.

EDIT #2: This hit me just now. Fevered Dreams + Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions = zomg

loopysnoopy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2010

England

The Ministery Of Cookies (MC)

W/Mo

05 Jan 2012 at 16:47 - 74

With this supposed armour decrease as is and the increase of health this would make all those that do Shadow Form speed clears a lot slower as most foes that they would face will need a fair amount of killing

So I hope Anet does this at least this way it should make all SC's a lot slower and hopefully drop all the silly business of stones what's your req in your hom nonsense as most people will be deterred from doing SC's

I would of liked it as for every foe over level 20 gets a -3 decrease in armour but gains 60 health for every 2 levels above 20 that then would of made a decent challenge.....

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

05 Jan 2012 at 17:36 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

On the contrary, eles should have more interesting gameplay roles than just nuke everything with high AoE damage. Be it healing or protection or snares, mesmers are the interrupts/denial specialists, so eles can be the protection/snares specialists. Everyone wants to be a specialist of outright damage nowadays and be grossly overpowered, given today's PvE meta of spirits and minions. We dont need to make PvE dumber than what it already is.

Eles have those other roles, and they'll get more of them after this ele update (based on the preview we saw). What they can't do is nuke everything. Yes, it's just "big dumb damage", but so what? They're the mages chucking fireballs, they should be able to kill stuff too, not just fill supportive roles like they've been doing (or throwing PvE skills out with an assassin elite driving the build). Mesmers used to be the interrupt/denial specialists; now, they're big AoE damage machines with a lot of interruption/denial sprinkled on top. You take mesmers for the yellow numbers now, not for the interrupts.

If anyone should be allowed to be a specialist of AoE damage, it's the ele, and it's not because the ele's skills are weak. Eles work perfectly fine in NM, they always have. The problem has always been the armor-to-health distribution in HM, that has made armor-ignoring damage so much more effective than elemental damage. That's it. Fix that, and eles can still do their support roles (and, again, will do them better when they get a few more relevant tools), but they'll also be able to use their big nukes in HM for once.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

05 Jan 2012 at 20:48 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

You take mesmers for the yellow numbers now, not for the interrupts.

You take them for both.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

05 Jan 2012 at 22:02 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Deep Wound is not entirely realistic. There are very few skills that possess the effect and most are in the hands of Wars,Paras and Sins. We know why people don't use those heroes though. Your still better off going AoE unless the mobs are so hard to kill that it calls for spiking single mobs. Usually with content like WoC there are too many mobs that AoE is far better than going the single spike route.

The only time you should be running Deep Wound realistically is if your on a Warrior in a Z quest group and your not forced to tank.

EDIT: Forgot about FH. FH will become important. Too important if you ask me. Damn PvE only skills.

EDIT #2: This hit me just now. Fevered Dreams + Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions = zomg

Deep wound is getting weaker, not stronger. DW's health loss is capped at 100 health, and all high level enemies already have over the 500 health needed to reach this cap. Deep wound can effectively be considered a 100 damage armor ignoring attack that only work once, and becomes significantly weaker with this update.

That said, Fevered Dreams has always been a ridiculously awesome skill. I put it on a hero then run an AP build myself, AoE cripple and deep wound makes things get nuked to death real quickly.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

05 Jan 2012 at 22:06 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Mesmers used to be the interrupt/denial specialists; now, they're big AoE damage machines with a lot of interruption/denial sprinkled on top. You take mesmers for the yellow numbers now, not for the interrupts.

I take mesmers for BOTH the yellow numbers AND the interrupts.

Quote:

If anyone should be allowed to be a specialist of AoE damage, it's the ele, and it's not because the ele's skills are weak.

Tell me one class that doesn't have AoE damage?

I have nothing against AoE damage. But most classes specialize in something else other than AoE damage. If the mesmer skill gets an interrupt off well as AoE damage, then the AoE damage cannot be too high or the skill would have a high recharge, or some other penalty.

If the skill only does AoE damage, then there is tendency to jack it up. The ultimate goal of PvE, which includes all classes, is to kill foes. If eles kill foes faster than all the other classes because of super big AoE damages then they are overpowered period. You can make eles die more easily than the other classes and be a "glass cannon" to balance them out but the game would have to be re-designed.

So if eles are not weaker than the other casters, and yet kill foes faster, then they would be overpowered and need a nerf. I just dont want this update to dumb PvE down more than it already is.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

05 Jan 2012 at 22:27 - 79

Regarding deep wound, Accumulatd Pain on your Ineptitude Mesmer is lovely.

Regarding ellys becoming so powerful and nuking everything dead ... So frigging what????? Isnt that what they were always meant to have been able to do from the start? Id rather like to be nuking effectively once again rather than being reduced to an E/Mo protter. The only place where ellys have had a role in GW since HM was added was in PVP.

I cant wait for the changes, I have my PVE and PVP ellys added as mercenaries. Along with Razah as an elly, I'll have a team of 6 ellys to play with.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

05 Jan 2012 at 22:28 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If anyone should be allowed to be a specialist of AoE damage, it's the ele, and it's not because the ele's skills are weak. Eles work perfectly fine in NM, they always have. The problem has always been the armor-to-health distribution in HM, that has made armor-ignoring damage so much more effective than elemental damage. That's it. Fix that, and eles can still do their support roles (and, again, will do them better when they get a few more relevant tools), but they'll also be able to use their big nukes in HM for once.

Elementalist damage works well in portions of NM because the AI is beyond retarded, not because the skills are good nor because the damage is high.
In HM it is slightly less retarded; notably it has the sense to move out of out AoEDoT skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

the higher the hp the better deep wound becomes

As hp increases, the effect from Deep Wound diminishes.