Why can't RA have some semblance of balance?
ruksak
It doesn't seem to off-the-wall to have made sure every team had a healer. How many times do you join a RA and someone leaves within seconds because no monk? The whole thing is broken anyway (PvP). Anet really shit the bed with their ill-conceived PvP platforms. Hence why I will not be playing GW2
Swingline
If you want to fix the pvp iz teh srs bsns attitude then pull the pvp titles from being shown like in the old days and remove that god forsaken emote. At this point I couldn't care less about losing my bambi. Titles should be a personal trophy to the player, not a tool for others to inflate the players ego and spread the disease known as elitism.
This is why Conquest worries me.
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Originally Posted by ruksak
Anet really shit the bed with their ill-conceived PvP platforms. Hence why I will not be playing GW2
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EPO Bot
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Originally Posted by ruksak
It doesn't seem to off-the-wall to have made sure every team had a healer. How many times do you join a RA and someone leaves within seconds because no monk? The whole thing is broken anyway (PvP). Anet really shit the bed with their ill-conceived PvP platforms. Hence why I will not be playing GW2
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Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Man W/ Club
IMO make RA only 1 district, not all these small districts where people can synch? I don't know how that will affect server lag (might be bad for it) but it will put an end to synching.
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This would concern more HA and Codex than RA however...
bhavv
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Originally Posted by Yuris Sayuri
@ Pluberus : I know how u feel, I always get the same profession in my team (Gladiator rank 10)
- If i play ranger -> only mes and rangers in my team. - If i play monk --> atleast 1 further monk in my team. - If i play melee --> i only get assas, dervs and warriors. - If i play ele -----> i wont get a single melee. And yes i was making notes, so its not just an felt issue. Still people ask me why i sync sometimes - srsly? |
I just fought a team with 2 mes, 1 ranger and a monk while my team had 4 ellys.
Normally on my elly i get something like 1-2 ellys, 1-2 necros or 1-2 mesmers, hardly ever anything else.
Then I swap to my monk and get 2-3 monks on my team 10 times in a row. So I swap back to my elly and get 0 monks for about 20 matches.
This cannot be random.
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Originally Posted by ruksak
Anet really shit the bed with their ill-conceived PvP platforms. Hence why I will not be playing GW2
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Lots of people defend the skill balances, and not all of them are bad, but the state of skill balance in this game has been a complete mess ever since the introduction of powercreep mainly from Nightfall onwards. Also stuff like lucky / unlucky and consumable titles is ridiculous, as is the PVP rank discrimination in whatever little hope there is left for HA + GVG in this game.
I recently saw a guild recruiting rank 10+ members only for HA ... I've checked that place out a lot during the last week, it only ever has half a district at any single time compared to something like 10+ full districts when I used to play it.
Lanier
I can't believe that I'm actually saying this... but skill balance has completely gone down the drain in PvE since Izzy stopped working on it. I know that everyone critisized him for his controversial skill "balances", but at least he tried (sort of). Lately, it seems like the team has just been overpowering one profession after another. It also seems to me like they use a dartboard to decide which skills to nerf or buff. They might take a perfectly balanced skill, and buff it or change its functionality when there is another awful skill that gets ignored.
Plus, the strategy of providing huge skill updates every 9 months is flat out stupid. If the team would do a small skill update every month or two, it would be a lot easier to detect which skills were overbuffed or overnerfed. The team should also be updating a few skills from multiple professions in the skill updates (like they used to do). Focusing entire updates on one profession means that the 9/10 of the players who's mains are not of that profession get left out of the skill update. This wouldn't be a problem if more PvE titles were account based... but they aren't.
Plus, the strategy of providing huge skill updates every 9 months is flat out stupid. If the team would do a small skill update every month or two, it would be a lot easier to detect which skills were overbuffed or overnerfed. The team should also be updating a few skills from multiple professions in the skill updates (like they used to do). Focusing entire updates on one profession means that the 9/10 of the players who's mains are not of that profession get left out of the skill update. This wouldn't be a problem if more PvE titles were account based... but they aren't.
Ariena Najea
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Originally Posted by bhavv
This is true like 99% of the time for me as well, seriously.
I just fought a team with 2 mes, 1 ranger and a monk while my team had 4 ellys. Normally on my elly i get something like 1-2 ellys, 1-2 necros or 1-2 mesmers, hardly ever anything else. Then I swap to my monk and get 2-3 monks on my team 10 times in a row. So I swap back to my elly and get 0 monks for about 20 matches. This cannot be random. To top this off, I've always found PVE in GW to be consistently worse than PVP, and almost every skill balance and update to the game is just 'Why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did they do that?'. Lots of people defend the skill balances, and not all of them are bad, but the state of skill balance in this game has been a complete mess ever since the introduction of powercreep mainly from Nightfall onwards. Also stuff like lucky / unlucky and consumable titles is ridiculous, as is the PVP rank discrimination in whatever little hope there is left for HA + GVG in this game. I recently saw a guild recruiting rank 10+ members only for HA ... I've checked that place out a lot during the last week, it only ever has half a district at any single time compared to something like 10+ full districts when I used to play it. |
We tend to notice poor teams (2 Monks, no Frontline, w/e) more than the median teams. If you keep track of the teams you receive and encounter AND determine in advance how many teams you will be observing, then you have a basis for making this type of claim. You will probably still have too small of a sample size to actually prove anything, but you will have a more accurate representation than what you have now.
Skyy High
Random is random. The principal unbalancing factor in RA is the fact that GW1 is designed to be played with characters who are not self-sufficient. Professions are designed to need to rely on other professions. That's never going to change, and it means that RA will always be "unbalanced" (and every possible sorting algorithm runs into the dual problems of a) restricting matches at off-peak hours, and b) making the format less random and therefore more like a poor man's TA). You want "balance", play a higher format.
ruksak
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Originally Posted by bhavv
as is the PVP rank discrimination in whatever little hope there is left for HA + GVG in this game.
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bhavv
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Originally Posted by Ariena Najea
Confirmation bias
We tend to notice poor teams (2 Monks, no Frontline, w/e) more than the median teams. If you keep track of the teams you receive and encounter AND determine in advance how many teams you will be observing, then you have a basis for making this type of claim. You will probably still have too small of a sample size to actually prove anything, but you will have a more accurate representation than what you have now. |
When I switch to a non monk, I never get one. This is an accurate observation and happens daily when I am playing RA.
Yuris Sayuri
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Originally Posted by Missing HB
That's as well what i was thinking about a few days ago... I don't believe there will be a population change so making all PvP outposts have international district only might solve a few problems and make it a little easier to team up also( plus i do believe people might dedicate time to play the format if they explicitely see the syncers..)...
This would concern more HA and Codex than RA however... |
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Yuris Sayuri
Let me repeat it again. Anet combined all RA districts about 3-4 months before they removed TA. Now you can meet any player from any district. That's what made syncing a lot harder since you can't just go to korea and get/face the same teams over and over again. GW's population has decreased too much so it's still possible to sync with decent success.
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Then there would be international district 2 if 1st is full , etc....( this would concern PvP only..) I know this for sure won't be done, but it seems legit and would do good
Yuris Sayuri
Might be a good idea for Codex and HA. But as u already said it won't rly influence RA.
Swingline
Its time to make HA and CA a random format. HA is nothing but guilds syncing HoH. If this is done it would also push organized teams out of HA and into GvG. Anet then needs to change the battle isles to house all the arenas in GToB and pull all the districts together into one.
... and put more skills per rotation into CA ffs.
All this can be done within a panel. You check mark which arena you want, if RA or HA you press Enter. If CA you check it, make your build then go.
... and put more skills per rotation into CA ffs.
All this can be done within a panel. You check mark which arena you want, if RA or HA you press Enter. If CA you check it, make your build then go.
Lanier
I would play HA if it were random teams. In fact, I think that would be really fun.
ruk1a
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Originally Posted by ruksak
It doesn't seem to off-the-wall to have made sure every team had a healer. How many times do you join a RA and someone leaves within seconds because no monk? The whole thing is broken anyway (PvP). Anet really shit the bed with their ill-conceived PvP platforms. Hence why I will not be playing GW2
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Reverend Dr
With "success" in Random Arenas determined by consecutive wins and the "random" aspect of the format feeds so many bad compositions which result in easy wins, then reducing the "random" aspect of team formation will result in far less frequent 25 win streaks.
While no one really likes getting a bunch of team compositions that are terrible before getting one that is half decent, because everyone has to do this win streaks happen far more frequently. This is why TA didn't do so well for a lot of point farmers; aside from a small handful of players most people could have far more success with a max of 10 game winning streaks from RA.
As Martin said back on the first page, the format was far more enjoyable back before the title was added. And likewise any team composition rules will be gamed, with an ELO its a simple matter of losing a whole bunch to tank your rating down, farming your title points, then repeating the ELO tanking.
While no one really likes getting a bunch of team compositions that are terrible before getting one that is half decent, because everyone has to do this win streaks happen far more frequently. This is why TA didn't do so well for a lot of point farmers; aside from a small handful of players most people could have far more success with a max of 10 game winning streaks from RA.
As Martin said back on the first page, the format was far more enjoyable back before the title was added. And likewise any team composition rules will be gamed, with an ELO its a simple matter of losing a whole bunch to tank your rating down, farming your title points, then repeating the ELO tanking.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Lanier
I would play HA if it were random teams. In fact, I think that would be really fun.
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Hell, you've played RA, right?
Lanier
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Originally Posted by lemming
Have you ever pubbed any DotA games?
Hell, you've played RA, right? |
Swingline
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Originally Posted by lemming
Have you ever pubbed any DotA games?
Hell, you've played RA, right? |
To do the random format you need game types that aren't annihilation and the current number of maps to reach HoH would have to be reduced to no more than two. This way they can really put thought into the two game types and the HoH map can stay the 3 way annihilation. BTW if they can make new missions for the holiday events then they can do this. The question is how stubborn are they about changing it.
Fay Vert
I would prefer RA if there could only be one on a team of any profession. Add player ratings to the match making (at least as a factor) RA would be so much better. At least nobody could use the noob accusation because you would know they are the same skill as you.
MithranArkanere
GW skills work in a way that makes them more balanced the bigger the party size is. There's also dedicated healers than make teams that have them or not very different in terms of power.
That gives random party formats a luck factor that is too big, and the party size of 4 only accentuates that.
This is why there just can't be 1vs1 in GW.
The first step to balance RA would make GWO's profession more similar to GW2's.
- The ability to have two alternate builds you can switch under certain circumstances (e.g: As a monk, set a smiter and hybrid healing-protecion one, if you happen to join with other 3 healers, you can just switch to smite instead having a fight of willpower with the other party to see who resigns first).
- Drastically maim dedicated healing with things like limits in the number of heal-other skills you can bring. (we all know this is not going to happen, it's one of the reasons for GW2).
After that, the difference between two teams would rely less in luck when matching(or syncing trickery) and more in actual skill.
But then, team-based formats like HA or GvG would be greatly damaged.
So, the only thing left would be improving the match-making algorithm by checking the skills in parties, preventing skills from bein repeated as much as possible, and spreading heal-other skills as much as possible. Which I don't think it's currently possible.
This is the kind of thing that if it was possible would have been done already, like Razah's variable profession, that didn't happen until it was technically possible.
That gives random party formats a luck factor that is too big, and the party size of 4 only accentuates that.
This is why there just can't be 1vs1 in GW.
The first step to balance RA would make GWO's profession more similar to GW2's.
- The ability to have two alternate builds you can switch under certain circumstances (e.g: As a monk, set a smiter and hybrid healing-protecion one, if you happen to join with other 3 healers, you can just switch to smite instead having a fight of willpower with the other party to see who resigns first).
- Drastically maim dedicated healing with things like limits in the number of heal-other skills you can bring. (we all know this is not going to happen, it's one of the reasons for GW2).
After that, the difference between two teams would rely less in luck when matching(or syncing trickery) and more in actual skill.
But then, team-based formats like HA or GvG would be greatly damaged.
So, the only thing left would be improving the match-making algorithm by checking the skills in parties, preventing skills from bein repeated as much as possible, and spreading heal-other skills as much as possible. Which I don't think it's currently possible.
This is the kind of thing that if it was possible would have been done already, like Razah's variable profession, that didn't happen until it was technically possible.
Fay Vert
Certainly, any change would have to be easy to implement. That would mean no player ratings other than what already exists eg. glad points. Limiting profession combos would be more doable.
Mokeiro
MY favourite thing about "random" lol arena its:
I can play 50 matches and i get no monk in my team ever, so tired of losing at 1st or 2nd fight i decide to play my monk...
MIRAAAACLE!!!! When i choose monk, EVERY match i have another monk or maybe 2 more on my team, so someone ragequit or refuses to heal and let the team dies, usually people its so stupid and mind closed... i remember a game with a uberpowered dervish a E/me shutdown, me and another monk, the dervish was great at killinf and E too, we could won hundred games easily, but the other idiot monk just stop playing the same moment he saw another monk, so enemies killed him, then me, then me again, then the lose
I can play 50 matches and i get no monk in my team ever, so tired of losing at 1st or 2nd fight i decide to play my monk...
MIRAAAACLE!!!! When i choose monk, EVERY match i have another monk or maybe 2 more on my team, so someone ragequit or refuses to heal and let the team dies, usually people its so stupid and mind closed... i remember a game with a uberpowered dervish a E/me shutdown, me and another monk, the dervish was great at killinf and E too, we could won hundred games easily, but the other idiot monk just stop playing the same moment he saw another monk, so enemies killed him, then me, then me again, then the lose
Sankt Hallvard
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Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole
I do understand that all of you are very good players and that you want to win all. But you have to consider the fact that RA is low-end PvP and the learning place for newbies. The best way of learning is to adapt to multiple different situations and that's why RA should stay just the way it is. As I said, I understand how frustrating it is for you really good players to lose only because you don't have a monk in team or because you don't have a melee class in team but I think you'd better be off in HA or GvG where you can have any kinds of professions in team that you want and win all.
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RA to me is extremely frustrating to play and I can't find any motivation to play it ever again. I have, however, done my share of RA(g9) so let me just say RA was a lot more fun before. It got worse with every update. IMO the consecutive reward system is a big fail, I just don't understand why you are rewarded for consecutive wins in a random format. After the 1st match your team is no longer random. If you have a good team setup you are already being rewarded, why add more incentives? In most matches this(w, r, n, mo-ish) team will face another bad random team where half will resign as soon as the doors spring open. This team has nothing to fight for other than trying to get killed asap so they can retry from outpost. Where is the fun for either team? If you got the same reward for winning a match regardless there would be a lot more actual "fights" being played out.
superraptors
love it when people use titles as an arguement, trust me if no titles were implemented for pvp, it would have died in the first year guild wars came out, EVERYONE that tombsd wanted an emote.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Swingline
This is where population matters. With a big enough population you don't run into the problems RA has. I played LoL for a bit and the random format let me experience the PvP side of LoL in a less stressful and competitive format. The goal wasn't to win, it was to have fun. The problem with GW is it doesn't have the population to have a organized and random formats for HA.
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- you can still do job 1v2-3
- you learn basics stuff such as field vision, timekills, tactics , etc...
- much less about abusing OP builds since there are shrines to cap and the map is much bigger
I don't know about you, but i find today that JQ/FA, although having many flaws, are much more fun than RA about testing build but also simply about objective, which isn't really only about spamming skills randomly...
Sankt Hallvard
- Remove consecutive bonus from RA. 1 pt per win.
- Delete codex.
- Make CB permanent. Add more maps or rework RA/TA/HB maps to work with a 5-man setup. Allow for 1-2 henchmen. This arena would share aspects from AB,gvg,HA,TA,HB and so would possibly be a nice place for players from these arenas. Can't gvg due to few people? Great, CB needs only 4-5! Missing AB? Great only 4-5 needed and cap tactics still apply! Miss the team aspect playing with friends from TA? Great, a new small arena! Missing HB? Great, cap tactics apply and you can order players and maybe 1-2 hench around! ;-) Also allow for both random entry and organised entry. Maybe think of a way to give a slight handicap to teams entering organised.
Make it happen.
- Delete codex.
- Make CB permanent. Add more maps or rework RA/TA/HB maps to work with a 5-man setup. Allow for 1-2 henchmen. This arena would share aspects from AB,gvg,HA,TA,HB and so would possibly be a nice place for players from these arenas. Can't gvg due to few people? Great, CB needs only 4-5! Missing AB? Great only 4-5 needed and cap tactics still apply! Miss the team aspect playing with friends from TA? Great, a new small arena! Missing HB? Great, cap tactics apply and you can order players and maybe 1-2 hench around! ;-) Also allow for both random entry and organised entry. Maybe think of a way to give a slight handicap to teams entering organised.
Make it happen.
Coast
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Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
- Remove consecutive bonus from RA. 1 pt per win.
- Delete codex. Make it happen. |
Hb back for the people who enjoyed that format.
-Codex is a nice format, don't blame Anet that nobody is in there.
Rather blame the community that is too lazy/impatient to make up builds/form teams. Deletion isn't needed here.
Hanok Odbrook
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Originally Posted by ruk1a
They've made some stupid decisions but people learn from their mistakes and you will just be missing out on a great looking game. Don't lie to yourself.. who isn't going to buy GW2? My 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by Coast
-1pt per win ra: no ty, rather remove title from there and put ta back.
Hb back for the people who enjoyed that format. -Codex is a nice format, don't blame Anet that nobody is in there. Rather blame the community that is too lazy/impatient to make up builds/form teams. Deletion isn't needed here. |
Hanok
urania
friends' list says hi.
Hanok Odbrook
Well yeah, that and if you have a decent active guild. But lacking those options (say none of your friends are on at the time you have time to play), Rank discrimination is a big barrier to entry for many players.
Hanok
Hanok
urania
i didnt mean (only) you should be playing with friends instead of pugging, but that if there'd be no ranks to tell you (approximately) who has some exp at least and who has little to none, people would mainly form with ppl on their friend's list, their friends, their friends' friends and so on.
Sankt Hallvard
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Originally Posted by Coast
-1pt per win ra: no ty, rather remove title from there and put ta back.
Hb back for the people who enjoyed that format. |
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Originally Posted by Coast
-Codex is a nice format, don't blame Anet that nobody is in there.
Rather blame the community that is too lazy/impatient to make up builds/form teams. Deletion isn't needed here. |
Coast
Because the other half of your post was alright, I only quoted the wrong part.
An ideal system that takes realities into account.
Ra syncing became major annoyance since the removal of ta.( yes, this was anets big mistake)
An ideal system that takes realities into account
.Ra syncing became major annoyance since the removal of ta.( yes, this was anets big mistake)
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
I've heard the "blame the community"-phrase before. I guess you also blame players for "rr day" and ra syncing as well? Thing is communism would also be an awesome system if it wasn't for human nature. But being that we ARE humans wanting to maximize our personal profit we have invented an economic system based on market theory which in practice seems to work a lot better. So what would you rather have? A system that takes realities into account and work or an ideal system that will never work but retain the right to criticise its participants to feel good about yourself?
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The community is responsible for abusing those formats and finishing killing them off, but if something was done to ban obvious match manipulation with multi launch, then maybe people would think twice before doing it .Come on, that PvP version of great snowball fight of gods, which was synced and abused since the 1st day, was probably their second epic fail after codex arena....
What they did with codex was horrible( no link at all with HB, no tournament implemented, no support behind), so they deserve a blame...It's partly about players lazyness, but let's be honest, you think there would be that many more players if it was team arenas?
His idea of costume brawl is probably the best since it's still some kind of random, people will still be able to sync it anyway, and it won't be just about smashing your bar against no heal and winning every 10 sec..People will have to learn how effective their build is, learn tactics, basics, etc....Actually replacing codex with such an arena would be great and fit well with GW2 ideas...
MithranArkanere
Random formats are like casual FPSs like TF2 open servers. Anyone joins in, and those that are good get more score. It's mainly just about fun. You can have fun even if you lose or have horribly shameful blunders.
Party-formats are like the higher end of competitive FPSs. People make teams, and they often get rather elitists about who they let join. They want results, after all.
There's nothing wrong with higher-end of competition, but it's always easier to hit a button an join a team for sure in less than a couple of minutes that depending on being picked by some leader like when forming teams to play games in recess, which may lead to you being picked last or left out.
That's why I'd rather have a both a random-party version and a team version of all PvP modes.
But then the party version will likely get empty, played only by the higher end of the PvP community. Well, the current players would become the higher end, since such a change would likely attract more casual players to those modes, not having the requirement of being picked for parties.
Party-formats are like the higher end of competitive FPSs. People make teams, and they often get rather elitists about who they let join. They want results, after all.
There's nothing wrong with higher-end of competition, but it's always easier to hit a button an join a team for sure in less than a couple of minutes that depending on being picked by some leader like when forming teams to play games in recess, which may lead to you being picked last or left out.
That's why I'd rather have a both a random-party version and a team version of all PvP modes.
But then the party version will likely get empty, played only by the higher end of the PvP community. Well, the current players would become the higher end, since such a change would likely attract more casual players to those modes, not having the requirement of being picked for parties.
Reverend Dr
They had a random format for GvG in beta, but it was so horribly received they removed it.
In RA a match will last for no longer than 6 minutes and very rarely longer than that. A random GvG match will much longer and force people to stay in undesirable teams for much longer periods of time. I've been playing League of Legends and it is annoying as hell when around the 20 minute mark (when your team can first resign) your team refuses and makes the match last 40-45 minutes when it is clear that they are just not going to be able to win.
There are good reasons that the PvP formats that require more organization are bad formats to have random.
In RA a match will last for no longer than 6 minutes and very rarely longer than that. A random GvG match will much longer and force people to stay in undesirable teams for much longer periods of time. I've been playing League of Legends and it is annoying as hell when around the 20 minute mark (when your team can first resign) your team refuses and makes the match last 40-45 minutes when it is clear that they are just not going to be able to win.
There are good reasons that the PvP formats that require more organization are bad formats to have random.