Did you ruin the experience for other players? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

17 Jan 2012 at 17:29 - 1

I was reading though PC Gamer this month about GW2 and this paragraph stuck out.

MMO communities are notorious for mapping out and documenting every inch of the games they play: a task that won’t be easy with Guild Wars 2, according to Flannum. “We never underestimate the ability of players to do things we don’t expect, but they can’t ruin the experience for other players and they don’t have to do that in order to get rewards

Whole article:
http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guild-wars-2-preview-4/

If someone is asking for help with a quest or something and we help or direct them to a walkthrough/wiki did we just ruin the experience for other players?

I realize he is saying that the MMO community will not be able to ruin the GW2 experience, even though he states "we do not underestimate the players to do things we do not expect"(sounds like he is underestimating them already) The flip side of that statement is that GW1 was ruined by the notorious MMO communities who have mapped out and documented every inch of the game.

Also, what experience can I ruin to get a reward from?

So what do you all think...Did we ruin the experience for other players?

Zaph

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

UTC+1

--- ???oo ???ugs ???lan --- [?????????]

Mo/

17 Jan 2012 at 18:42 - 2

I once wanted to ruin an experience for rest of the GW community by using bots and getting shitload of ekto stackz... but then I took an arrow to the knee ... banhammer to the face!!!

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

17 Jan 2012 at 18:49 - 3

No, because the choice to utilize those resources exists. You could choose to insulate yourself from those sources of information if you really wanted to.

The devs come across as very, very naive in that article you linked.

Mireles

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2009

W/Me

17 Jan 2012 at 18:52 - 4

Its sounds like his argument can be applied to wikis, people ruin their own experience by giving up and accepting the easy way of doing things.... if that is how u define ruining..

And if thinks there wont be people with nothing better to do than sit at home all day and try to be the first one to document every corner of the game... he doesn't know MMORPG players very well does he...

Vernphos

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2011

North Carlina

BAD

D/

17 Jan 2012 at 18:55 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

Only way I ruined the experience for other players is beating them over and over again in HA, HB, RA, and at one point even GvG

So your only fault was you were just too darn awesome for the rest of us.

Tough break I guess

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

17 Jan 2012 at 19:25 - 6

Sometimes i should have kept my mouth shut.

Or actually: My fingers from the keyboard.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

17 Jan 2012 at 20:14 - 7

EDIT: Shouldnt have read the quote then posted

Its always going to happen soon after the MMO is released. Gamers rush through the entire game to be first and in doing so everything is mapped out. IMHO its the gamers asking for help that ruin the experience themselves. Some buy strategy guides or use the wiki from day one.

There was one incident that ruined prophecies for many people though...

... Vizier Khilbron Is The[Lich]

That was just a dick move.

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

17 Jan 2012 at 21:05 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

No, because the choice to utilize those resources exists.

Not true, when participating in coop in GW players are expected to know and use these resources, just as they were expected to skip through cut-scenes.

Naïvety is in the idea that players are independent from other players in MMO's

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

17 Jan 2012 at 21:12 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Not true, when participating in coop in GW players are expected to know and use these resources, just as they were expected to skip through cut-scenes.

H/H

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Naïvety is in the idea that players are independent from other players in MMO's

Yes, that's endemic throughout the PC Gamer article...but not in my post.

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

17 Jan 2012 at 21:50 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Yes, that's endemic throughout the PC Gamer article...but not in my post.

Well, actually, it was in your post, it is naive to believe that people have a choice to use these resources or not, when in fact they are expected to use them. The days that one could just 'enter mission' unprepared with a ragtag bunch of pc's are long gone.

It's also reflected by a main theme of the forum, btw, use search, and PvX. People are expected to use wiki's.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

17 Jan 2012 at 22:49 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, actually, it was in your post, it is naive to believe that people have a choice to use these resources or not, when in fact they are expected to use them.

It is self-evident that people have a choice. This game was designed to be playable by a single player, although that didn't work too well until they gave the henchies infused armor. Insulating yourself from community resources and other players is a rather early-1990s way of doing things, but you can do it.

Sure, that choice may come with a high opportunity cost (the social aspects of the game), but it is there and has been from the beginning. If you didn't like being dictated to, you could always take your toys and go play in the solo sandbox. Ditto if you didn't want people spoiling the plot or techniques for completing the missions, with the added possibility of using in-game and community resources to play the missions with a group of like-minded people the first time.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

17 Jan 2012 at 22:49 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, actually, it was in your post, it is naive to believe that people have a choice to use these resources or not, when in fact they are expected to use them. The days that one could just 'enter mission' unprepared with a ragtag bunch of pc's are long gone.

It's also reflected by a main theme of the forum, btw, use search, and PvX. People are expected to use wiki's.

His comment was not directed towards MMO players but the devs for saying players wont ruin the experience for other players in GW2.

This idea of not ruining the game experience of other players is flawed with GW1 because of what me and Martin talked about in the Jan 5th update thread. His comment against my argument was that Guild Wars combat was a knife edge system where everybody is walking on the line between life and death. This is true about PvE to some extent and finally manifested itself even more with the introduction of HM, where you can get 2-3 shotted as a heavy armor wearer. After GW HM was introduced people were expected to be prepared because walking right into HM will get you killed fast. Thus you must know the details of a dungeon/elite area if you intend to go with pugs.

Now about the devs... I don't think they are completely naive. GW2 is more MMO than GW1 and its combat system seems more comfortable than GW1. What I mean is your ass wont be clenched 100% of the time with the fear of death knocking on the door the whole fight. You should feel that rush in the instant it might occur when your health bar is at 5% hp. To say not one person will have their game experience ruined is too confident. Its going to happen to someone. I just hope the odds are good enough for new players to have a chance after the game has been out for a while and I think GW2 will give them that chance.

TBH the introduction of heroes is what kept this game going. No one would put up with the ass-hattery of people in this state of the game today. I had a monk in today's ZB raging that the dungeon wasn't going fast enough. He started to agro because the tank wasn't going fast enough for him. Talk about someones experienced ruined because he didn't do the dungeon before.

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

17 Jan 2012 at 22:53 - 13

When I reached Borlis Pass for the first time, a friend told me on accident that

When I reached Bloostone Fen for the first time, someone who was bored with the game said

When I reached Thunderhead Keep for the first time, a party member told our group, who were also first timers then, that

I have now created a rule what I call Gamer Rule N-2: When you start a game for the first time, be as ignorant of people as possible.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

17 Jan 2012 at 23:20 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This idea of not ruining the game experience of other players is flawed with GW1 because of what me an Martin talked about in the Jan 5th update thread. His comment against my argument was that Guild Wars combat was a knife edge system where everybody is walking on the line between life and death.

To be clear: the argument is that balance in GW PvP is a knife-edge condition. The problem isn't that players are frail, but that PvP requires players' fragility to exist within a very precise range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Now about the devs... I don't think they are completely naive. GW2 is more MMO than GW2 and its combat system seems more comfortable than GW2.

That's a potential plus. The problem in the article is that the devs don't seem to realize the likely end results of the mechanics changes. What they're doing isn't going to end build discriminiation. It's just going to cause players to organize more broadly.

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

18 Jan 2012 at 00:35 - 15

From http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:About

Why would ArenaNet offer to host a wiki? What's in it for ArenaNet?

The wiki is a fantastic resource for Guild Wars players. It's often more complete and useful than the documentation that ArenaNet generates internally. Wiki documentation is featured prominently in Guild Wars through the help menu.
Because the wiki is featured in game there are a few factors ArenaNet needed to take into consideration. First, the game's wiki documentation needed to be hosted on a site that could scale to handle the potentially huge volume and huge bandwidth that comes with game integration. Second, it needed to be hosted on a site that they could guarantee would always be available. Third, the wiki needed to be hosted under a license that permits integration with the game. For these reasons, ArenaNet decided to start providing free hosting for a wiki site on their servers, and started working with the community to document Guild Wars.
--------------------------

Now I wonder if ArenaNet ruined its own game by hosting this wiki and making the wiki available directly from the game. According to this FAQ ArenaNet started working with the notorious MMO community to document Guild Wars.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

18 Jan 2012 at 00:36 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That's a potential plus. The problem in the article is that the devs don't seem to realize the likely end results of the mechanics changes. What they're doing isn't going to end build discriminiation. It's just going to cause players to organize more broadly.

That may be true if they fail to balance the skills per weapon set or if the game itself enforces build discrimination(ex. destroyers are strong vs fire damage and weak vs. cold). The truth is we don't really know how GW2 will turn out in terms of build discrimination. Chances are that the game will enforce it but hopefully in a more balanced manner than just making many end game creatures resistant against fire and none of the other elements, I certainly hope they learned that mistake. Players tend to discriminate if one build is highly effective over the other, therefore if the game doesn't favor one damage type over another and one mechanic over the other then the majority of players will ease off on other players and allow them to run what they want. The trick is to not do it too much or too little.

Quote:

Now I wonder if AreaNet ruined its own game by hosting this wiki and making the wiki available directly from the game. According to this FAQ ArenaNet started working with the notorious MMO community to document Guild Wars.

Its an interesting question. IIRC the wiki was officially endorsed by Arena Net much later after the game was released. I like to think they did it for security purposes along with many others. Mostly because GW players, once hacked, were shit outta luck and I wouldn't trust the non official wikis at all. Other reasons may include the lack of a helpful community. Try asking for help in LA(I dare you), ask for help in Ascalon(crickets), guilds are pretty much dead and getting deader(if that was possible >.>) and tumbleweeds roll through almost every mission outpost. They endorsed the wiki because they knew the game was going to end up like this. It was to help their newer players because the old players were too busy doing speed clears.

Omar Charrbane

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2011

Imperium Von Aurion

W/E

18 Jan 2012 at 02:42 - 17

I would say yes, absolutely.
But most of it is purely inadvertant, so the person "helping" isn't nessecaly to blame.

Reason I say this is because when I first bought Guildwars, and was in presearing, I needed to adventure with an ally to get the ressurection signet.

Unbeknownst to me, since I've only been playing this game for about 20 minutes, is that the guy who helped me was a level12, who had his dialouges with gwen.

I was screwed out of the full experience and dialouges with Gwen, and so by extension couldn't get the cape/flute, whatever the end item was, and so I couldn't get the quest much later in EotN.

The same is with ALOT of NPC speeches/interactions in Explorable Areas that are triggered because a player is far more advanced. This screws up the storyline for me, because you know what, I play the game for the story, not to grind for titles.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

From http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:About

Why would ArenaNet offer to host a wiki? What's in it for ArenaNet?

The wiki is a fantastic resource for Guild Wars players. It's often more complete and useful than the documentation that ArenaNet generates internally. Wiki documentation is featured prominently in Guild Wars through the help menu.
Because the wiki is featured in game there are a few factors ArenaNet needed to take into consideration. First, the game's wiki documentation needed to be hosted on a site that could scale to handle the potentially huge volume and huge bandwidth that comes with game integration. Second, it needed to be hosted on a site that they could guarantee would always be available. Third, the wiki needed to be hosted under a license that permits integration with the game. For these reasons, ArenaNet decided to start providing free hosting for a wiki site on their servers, and started working with the community to document Guild Wars.
--------------------------

Now I wonder if ArenaNet ruined its own game by hosting this wiki and making the wiki available directly from the game. According to this FAQ ArenaNet started working with the notorious MMO community to document Guild Wars.

I lol'ed! (alot more characters)

Glider of chaos

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

A/N

18 Jan 2012 at 06:59 - 18

Reminds me of this comic

On a more serious note I'm not sure what to think. I kinds see his point but on the other hand I'm not sure if accessible information really ruins experience for players. Take War in Kryta quests for example: search for Keiran clues is plain abysmal - no clues, no hints, no anything. I was thankful for wiki at that point

godis

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2009

LOVE

N/Me

18 Jan 2012 at 07:00 - 19

I would never have beaten the game without the wiki. Without the help of others I would never have known that you could add heroes and henchmen to your party. I would never have figured out what runes to add to the armor, or that you could add them to heroes also. I probably never would have left the starter island in NF ( where I started)
So thank you MMO community for still keeping me in the game !

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

18 Jan 2012 at 07:08 - 20

I would say that my husband 'ruined' it for me since he got me playing the game---I first saw him at perdition rock playing (I had just come home from working overseas).....so I had seen the end game stuff --knew about rurik and the lich et al....but I still bought the game and for the past 6+ years have been playing it (too much)....so even though I saw the spoilers so to speak, it didnt 'ruin' the personal experience of playing it myself.

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

18 Jan 2012 at 07:59 - 21

One of the last things that people enjoy reading in the chat channels after account and gold sellers / buyers, is a flood ofquestions asking for help. Most people want to actually have a discussion or chat about whateverthey want while playing without having to answer every question from new players.

TBH I never understood why people need to ask so many questions about how to play, if they simply spent more time playing and less time asking they would likely figure it out themselves like most people did. For people who are still too lazy, there is an official, and several unofficial wikis for the game that they can use. I always thought that the normal thing to do if you dont understand something in a game is to google the problem and find the answer on a wiki for that game, but I suppose that bombarding the general chat channels is an easier and lazier way of doing it.

A lot of other MMOs actually have a dedicated /help or /advice channel where people can ask for help without disrupting the general chat, and get advice from players and even GMs who like to provide help.

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

18 Jan 2012 at 14:27 - 22

Damn I almost forgot about this from the GW2 wiki here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:FAQ

Why does this site exist when the game isn't out yet?
ArenaNet opened the Guild Wars 2 Wiki in December 2007 so that the community would have a place to document the bits of information to be released through interviews, articles, etc as they became available. To quote Emily Diehl: "We'd like to make sure that you guys have a good place to put that stuff when you get it, without having to move it later."

and

Will the wiki be accessible from in-game?
Yes, though the integration is likely to differ from Guild Wars 1. A blog post has stated that there will be "a much tighter system for accessing and consuming wiki content. This will greatly reduce the need to continuously jump out of the game to access web sites for information." Specifics haven't been revealed

So is GW2 is already ruined before it came out using Mr. Flannum's quote? He cannot blame this one on the MMO Community. ArenaNet opened the Wiki in 2007 and they will integrate it into the game. They enable us to document every inch of the game and then bust our chops for doing it.

I feel like a drug addict whose mom is telling me to stop taking drugs, but handing me money to buy drugs at the same time.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

18 Jan 2012 at 14:50 - 23

Impressive how the most frequent answer seems to be spoilers related to the Prophecies plot.

About Rurik... on my first playthrough, I too was told Rurik was going to die and to resurrect as a undead, summoned by the Vizier Khilbron who is actually the Undead Lich and the final boss of the game.

Nothing special, you say...

Well... It happened while I was looking for the special birthday present for Althea, in Pre-Searing Ascalon. I was also informed about her scripted demise soon after the Searing - the Searing itself being spoilered for me.

Nice to have a well informed guildies when you're a noob, isn't it?

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

18 Jan 2012 at 15:14 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I feel like a drug addict whose mom is telling me to stop taking drugs, but handing me money to buy drugs at the same time.

Its more of stop taking drugs, here are some money to buy sandwich.

Wiki for game mechanics and related items (items, skills, etc...) is necessary to have.

That same wiki might and might not be used to get some insight about storyline, but storyline in GW2 is pretty much spoiled already (get five heroes, fice nations and thee factions together to kill big bad dragon).

Unless we learn that big bad dragon is Lich-Vizier in rather impressive costume, there are not any suprises.

Voodoo Rage

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Sacramento, CA

Geezers

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 15:28 - 25

When I first started I was playing just fine, I got to level 9 or 10 and was progressing through the Prophecies campaign normally. A friend of mine then gave me a bunch of money, ran me to the other campaigns, got me max armor, leveled me up to 20, and got me heroes. Because I missed out on that whole learning curve, I really never learned to play the game properly. As I have posted several times, my build of choice end up being a TOUCH RANGER which I played consistently for well over a year. I didn't really learn how to truly play the game until I decided to roll a new character and start fresh. In retrospect, I think my personal experience was ruined in that respect.

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

18 Jan 2012 at 15:29 - 26

there were no wikis when we started playing--though we did have the prima guides (mine is still here somewheres next to my computer...under..no..next to...no...its here somewhere)....even though they were not perfect they did help with finding collectors and bosses et al....not nearly as comprehensive as the wiki is (though I do like having the books in my hand while also playing the game on the computer---much easier than minimizing all the time).
ah the good ole days....so if the wikis ruined it..what about the old prima guides?

Relyk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

W/

18 Jan 2012 at 15:29 - 27

People are so lucky to have wikis. Compared to looking on fansites, forums, or gamefaqs, wikis make looking up information accessible and easy to find. I can usually find information on a wiki in a matter of seconds instead of scrounging around with google searches going through forums. i consider it an amazing accomplishment when one site can provide all the hints, advice, walkthroughs, and information a person would ever need for a game.

That's also to say guildwarswiki sets the gold standard for what a wiki should be. Blame it on the awesome community for ruining everyone's gaming experience for making the wiki too comprehensive and thorough.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

18 Jan 2012 at 15:32 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Unless we learn that big bad dragon is Lich-Vizier in rather impressive costume, there are not any suprises.

You mean, unless we learn that the dragon is actually the master of a group of yelling sages and we're killed by an arrow in the knee to prevent us from revealing his secret...?

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 17:25 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Also, what experience can I ruin to get a reward from?

Quite obviously, a new player's first experience with, well, anything. Think about how veterans tend to play new characters (particularly a few years ago, when NM was the only mode available and most people still at least attempted to group before resigning to henchies and/or heroes). You know exactly where to go, what to do, and how to beat the mission the fastest. You know what skills to bring, what skills will be useless, and what roles need to be filled. You got to learn all that for yourself, playing with friends or PUGs or even just with henchies, until you could beat the mission yourself. On your 2nd, 3rd, or 10th playthrough, however, you just want to beat the damn mission. You don't want to wait for Joe Newbie to learn for himself, you just tell him what to do and rage if he wants to use his flarespammer/beastmaster R/E build, or if he wants to stop and look at the pretty snowy mountains, or if he pulls a group that you don't need to kill because he still thinks the occasional white drop is worth the time.

In short: you get the reward of finishing the mission faster and easier if you force the newbie to play the way you, the veteran, want him to play. Everyone here has done it, some more forcefully than others. I'm not making a value judgement on whether you should or should not do it (because I'd be a hypocrite if I say that you shouldn't), I'm just pointing out that that conflict is there, every time you PUG with someone of a different experience / skill level than you.

Amy Awien

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 17:38 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

... ArenaNet opened the Wiki in 2007 and they will integrate it into the game.

Before wiki.guildwars.com was opened there was already - and still is - www.guildwiki.org, which essentially features the same content as anet's wiki. I don't know when it was created but I am pretty sure is was around and became widely used around the time that Factions was released.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

18 Jan 2012 at 18:11 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

That may be true if they fail to balance the skills per weapon set or if the game itself enforces build discrimination(ex. destroyers are strong vs fire damage and weak vs. cold). The truth is we don't really know how GW2 will turn out in terms of build discrimination.

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

This sounds like a good idea, until you realize that all this does is spur the better players to organize and time things to get dropped into the same instance, avoiding the lowly masses. However, you can bet that the power players will have some choice things to say to the masses when those efforts at coordination fail.

A strictly superior design would recognize the problem for what it is and react to it. The efficient solution is to create endgame 'containment areas' designed to attract power players by conferring just enough additional rewards to keep them happy, but with a sufficiently small boost that the social players remain happy to suffer the relative decrease in drops as the price of remaining in regions with like-minded players.

The devs also seem to believe that randomizing things will cause players to somehow permit greater build diversity, but the reality is that randomization will only shift the equilibrium in favor of flexibility over raw power. A team build which yields an optimal expected completion time given the randomization will still exist; the only change will be that the build's exact composition will differ.

X Dr Pepper X

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

The Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 19:41 - 32

This guy's article sucks.

People dont ruin MMOs by mapping out and recording data for plots, quests, lore, etc on wikis or discussing it.

Its optional to the player to view wikis or forums and entirely possible to avoid spoilers or easy mode walkthroughs by not using those sites for the express purpose of doing so.

What destroys MMOs are the tendencies of the fanbase along with the decisions developers put into effect in MMOs.

We all remember how they nerfed Ursan Blessing horribly after more than a year later because ANet refused to put their foot down on the brat pack PvE farm/grind mentality.

Many more examples across many games.

AngelWJedi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2008

orlando,florida

Society of Souls [Argh]

Rt/E

18 Jan 2012 at 19:48 - 33

i never gave out spoilers and ruined peoples game play. but i didnt think wiki did either. i know a lot of people who wont use it on the account they are just lazy..so even if its out there doesnt mean everyone uses it. i know people who told me the ending of movies/stories and other things but it never ruined it for me xD but then again by the time i reached the ending i had forgoten what i was told lols

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 21:21 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

Huh? No, that's not their plan at all. Their plan is to cut out useless skills and all skills that have the potential to be useless if used poorly (like, say, GW1 mesmer interrupts) and to replace them with a short list of powerful skills, fixed builds for each weapon so that everyone has a solid role that fits their equipment at the very least, and effects that are excellent if used well and still ok if used poorly (stuns replacing interrupts).

This lets the good players still be good, but compresses the bottom of the curve so that bad players aren't miles below "average" or "acceptable", like they could be in GW1.

enter_the_zone

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2007

R/

18 Jan 2012 at 21:30 - 35

Actually, reading that in the entire context, to me he seems to be saying that the wiki and having everything mapped out can't ruin the experience, at least in GW2. I suspect that largely has to do with the individual personal storylines they keep banging on about.

Personally, I can't play games without a decent wiki because half the time the outcome of an action isn't obvious from the options, and the rewards aren't known beforehand either. Sure, that adds some replayability, but let's be real here, no one wants to play 654 hours of a game to take a single different decision next time. Lay it out for me and let me choose.... or I'll go play something else and another game will just be added to the long, long litany of games I haven't finished because I couldn't help but go "Bored now.."

To be fair though, I predate wikis.... I've got a printed out FF7 guide somewhere that is so long it requires multiple ringbinders.

Guild Wars has one of the best wikis for any game I have ever seen, and hopefully it will stay that good for GW2.

Yes, choosing to use the wiki can "ruin" your experience, especially if you use it for everything as opposed to just when you're stuck, but that's a free choice.

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

18 Jan 2012 at 21:39 - 36

I'm on the fence regarding this. I can recall back when I started playing GW franticaly searching for a mythical city called "Yak's Bend" in order to purchase this unknown item called a Expert Salvage that would let me gain runes from blue armor as well as the much needed Fur for the Armor Crafter in Ascalon City.

Happily I found it on my own just by following the story and doing some exploring, but I must wonder what if there had been a wiki to show me the way? Would it have taken away my enjoyment of the game?

I don't think so. Though I will say that having people in a party who have complete a mission once or twice before can be hard on new players just because they wish to rush through it while the new player might wish to explore a bit and take his time.

Araiia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2009

USA

18 Jan 2012 at 21:50 - 37

The question is too subjective for me to answer. It's like asking if running a build taken from gwpvx or regarded as meta (panic, UA, SF etc) is 'ruining the game.' People have pretty different ideas of how the game 'should' be played and expect different things out of their game experience.

I generally try to avoid responding with "check the wiki" when people ask me for advice, but I don't hesitate to give tips that I know from reading the wiki. Some people just don't like reading wikis, so I won't force it on them - but knowledge is knowledge.

The one thing I do however, is recommend a ferry/run to LA when I notice someone struggling through the starting zones of Nightfall and Prophecies. Although running and skipping part of the storyline is obviously immersion breaking, it's perfectly possible to go back once you have an elite and a full skill build and play through all the 'skipped' content. Before you do anything else in that campaign, in fact.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

18 Jan 2012 at 23:55 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Huh? No, that's not their plan at all. Their plan is to cut out useless skills and all skills that have the potential to be useless if used poorly (like, say, GW1 mesmer interrupts) and to replace them with a short list of powerful skills, fixed builds for each weapon so that everyone has a solid role that fits their equipment at the very least, and effects that are excellent if used well and still ok if used poorly (stuns replacing interrupts).

Then why does every preview article show (and describe) large quantities of PCs that aren't in the same party engaged in combat with instanced boss monsters?

As for balance, I'll believe precisely equivalent power across classes when I see it. If the devs release a game where team parts are totally interchangeable, it'll be a first in gaming history. The reality is that given classes X, Y and Z, some combination will outperform other combinations.

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

19 Jan 2012 at 00:30 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

This sounds like a good idea, until you realize that all this does is spur the better players to organize and time things to get dropped into the same instance, avoiding the lowly masses. However, you can bet that the power players will have some choice things to say to the masses when those efforts at coordination fail.

A strictly superior design would recognize the problem for what it is and react to it. The efficient solution is to create endgame 'containment areas' designed to attract power players by conferring just enough additional rewards to keep them happy, but with a sufficiently small boost that the social players remain happy to suffer the relative decrease in drops as the price of remaining in regions with like-minded players.

The devs also seem to believe that randomizing things will cause players to somehow permit greater build diversity, but the reality is that randomization will only shift the equilibrium in favor of flexibility over raw power. A team build which yields an optimal expected completion time given the randomization will still exist; the only change will be that the build's exact composition will differ.

We can discuss it till our eyes bleed but the best thing to do is wait till we see the game completely finished. There may be small mechanics that we have not seen which might turn our ideas of GW2 upside down. I hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

19 Jan 2012 at 01:20 - 40

I've never given away story stuff to people. Never seen the reason to. I give skill and build help, mostly because if I don't then the average noob gets it from idiots who run warriors with blood magic.

I had exactly zero (PvE) interaction with other players before I finished prophecies on my first 2 characters (warrior and mesmer), henching it all the way. Nothing prevents new players from doing that now, the sad fact is that a very high proportion of them are MMOtards intent on ruining the game for themselves and racing as fast as possible so that they can grind UW/FoW/DoA for tehuberlewtz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

As for balance, I'll believe precisely equivalent power across classes when I see it. If the devs release a game where team parts are totally interchangeable, it'll be a first in gaming history. The reality is that given classes X, Y and Z, some combination will outperform other combinations.

I LOVE such statements as "devs plan to balance the game". As if there are devs whose objective is "lets make x class shitty because lol". One might as well say "devs plan to end world hunger with this game", it means about the same as far as what the final result is going to be.