Solutions for fixing HA and other formats

Here's a simple idea, I think it could do worlds of good for HA. HA is all but empty. New players shy away from the format for many reasons( frustration in finding a group, elitism making some aspects of the game near impossible to just pick up, Rank discrimination being the main cause.), and without new players the game stagnates.

Solution: Teams are matched by rank ; r0-3, r4-6, r7-9, r10+ or something along those lines. It creates a balance between teams, eliminates farming lowbie players to grind ranks, and creates an environment more conducive to new players.

Upon hitting r4 for example, a player will be unable to join a team with players below his rank. Same applies for every transitional rank. Players with experience get to play at the level they are comfortable, competition will be on par with their ability.

Newer players will be more evenly matched with players in their respective play levels. This will allow more casual players to gain the valuable experience they require, and still be able to play in an evenly matched environment.

I think that separating districts by rank rather then by location will also allow for better team formation.

It had been suggested that HA go the way of RA and do random team matching. At that rate it might be easier to add restrictions on team composition (no more then 2 of any class in a team for example.), which would also balance game play quite a bit, reducing spiking, ball healing, and forcing innovation, though I don't feel randomizing HA is a valid solution.

So there it is, I would love to see any other ideas, or suggestions on here.

So what about players who are playing in a guild/alliance, that are all higher ranks, you would now be unable to play with these people.

The PvPrs in HA ruined there own format by pushing those who tried to get into it out, and now there all crying its dead.

Random does not work in HA, its a structured PVP arena for dedicated teams, and the rewards match that,

And no i dont do HA.

A system that put people of similar rank against each other would be nice, but such a thing should be implemented from the start of the game (imho). In such a scenario I would split HA into different arenas: one for r0-3, one for r4-6.... you could then put more tactical maps in the high rank arenas and easy annihilation maps in low rank arenas.
Splitting up the almost non-existant HA player base (I mean pugs), would mean noone would get to play at all, I'd think.
That's my 2 cents, but I don't really pvp anyway ><

Limiting grouping (by an account wide title, no less) could cause problems at different ranks for just plain finding people within your rank, specifically those that have less people (ex, mid ranks).
Wait times are also likely to increase, but I don't really know how much of a problem that may or may not be.

Perhaps groups could match a team based on the player in the party with the highest rank. Or, if that's a potential problem for farming low rank players, the group average. A rank averaged group could be weighted towards the rank of most players in the group, in the case of a party with something like 7 r0-3's and 1 r10+, to make sure they still compete in the lowest tier.
This completely does not address high rank players on alternate low rank accounts.

$.02 from a PvE player. The reason I don't PvP is not because of rank discrimination, nor is it poorly matched teams. While I like random groups for PvP more then selected groups, changing a format like HA to random would not attract me, it would simply destroy a format.
The reason I do not PvP is simply because I do not like PvP. Sure, I've bounced around the different formats just to see the maps and whatnot. And I didn't return simply because PvP doesn't interest me. I wasn't offended, I wasn't affronted; I simply am not interested in that part of this (or any other) game. Many, maaaany PvE players will say the same thing, and we don't want to try to be "attracted" to the PvP formats.
As for new players... There's hardly any of those. There's more people getting bored with the game and leaving then there are actual new people coming in or old players returning in anticipation for GW2. They all want 30-50 in their HoM, and maybe a GWAMM. While they may be pushed out of HA due to its many problems, they're much more likely not interested in the first place (particularly if they have read guides or forums topics in preparation) as HA (and PvP in general) is perhaps the slowest way to meet their goals.

I swear this thread will get deleted as you didn't really get that rank discrimination isn't the main reason HA is empty( every format is empty in fact, and the reason of this is quite obvious...)

Even assuming it was the problem, the idea doesn't fit with inactivity...You would basically divide the low population into several parts.. In theory, that works if there are a lot of players from each level, but unfortunately, here is what would happen :
- most " addicted " players wouldn't get any more opponent and would use second accounts to play on lower ranks
- higher rank players wouldn't get any more opponents and fair players would stop
- the place ends in a similar GvG bis : randomways get farmed by top players faking their rank...

I don't also think the idea of " not being able to take people from higher rank" is really good and fun.. We would need a lot more than 24 players to make the format active, and it's really already a pain to find those...

So, /not signed

Are you trolling or what???? Seriously, this rank discrimination is getting boring. Get good, make friends and play. I never complained about rank, I worked my way up to high rank by playing against high ranked people and you should do the same. You can't expect everything to be easy like it is in pve with consets and heroes.

Props for your ideas, however it won't work.

Dividing what is already a wasteland would be sheer folly.

PvP is simply a basket case, those who still play are chasing PvE titles simple as that.

Ask most guild leaders how many inactive people in rosters, it is endemic

Here's a long-time PvEr with GWAMM and 50/50 obtained for three accounts. I got severely bored with PvE in the process, so i decided to play the market more... and get into PvP.
I did encounter rank discrimination. Even after joining 'newbie-friendly' HA guild, i could never get into a team unless six other players were offline (and i'm not talking about the 'core team' composed of r10+ people). After finally getting into a group, the officers decided to run r-spike, and r-spike only, with the newbies. I'm fine with that, but then imagine how many wins we had over hours upon hours of playtime... nearly none.
I proposed running another build - sure, i was well aware we weren't going to win a lot, being composed of newbies led by two-three experienced players (not very top, too), but once we learned the basics of r-spike and we saw how HA looks (a lot of us have never been to a HA match before, though two guys were r7+ glad), we wanted to learn something different. My suggestion was declined and when i asked why, i was kicked from the guild for 'arguing with an officer'.

So then i tried to pug my own group of like-minded people who wanted to get into HA. I spammed even outside HA outpost to gather the party, and finally succeeded - after a few hours (because, you know - i found two guys in LA, but before i found three more in GToB, one of the original two left, and so on...). One of them was even r4, yay.
After sorting out all the builds (led by the r4) and beating the zaishen, we got into the first match and, surprise surprise, got steamrolled. It happened a few times more, in a row, and people started to leave. In 20+ games, we won three times - once we even met bots who quickly resigned.

I tried a bit later on, joined a HA guild as well (again, got into the group a few times before the guild totally dissolved), tried some pugs, but it's of no use. So i decided to ditch HA and focus on RA, even though i was really, really interested in getting into HA - and i thought that PvPers would be so as well, since it's one more dedicated player towards a 'dead format'.


With all the above said, i believe there are two biggest problems with HA (and, to lesser extent, GvG and, even lesser, AB).
First of all, you can't practice by yourself. You can't get familiar with the maps, or how the format is played, or what people run there (by actually watching them play it, being part of that game) unless you find seven other people who would like to try themselves. Compare it to JQ, where a total newbie can just hit "Enter" with any skills, and even if they won't kill anyone, or contribute to the team, they may learn the map, the common builds, get accustomed to the carriers' speed, etc. Take RA - you can be a newbie in PvP, aspiring to monking in RA, and even though you lose the first 20 matches (if you're THAT bad), you at least learn something - and you don't need to bother three (or, oh gods, seven) other people in order to do so. Sure, other RAers might comment your shitty monking, so you need a thick skin when getting into PvP, and THAT is actually quite understandable... other PvP player-induced problems, however, are not.
Second thing is, that even after you finally form a group or get into one, you get easily steamrolled by semi-experienced or very experienced groups. Let's assume that there are five r0 players, led by two or three r10+. If they meet a group of r5-r7, they are easily beaten. If they meet a group of r10+... well, there's nothing to mop up. After a while, the r10+ leaders - usually on monks - get annoyed and bored with such a situation, and start leaving. Not surprising, eh?


So, the only way the playerbase itself might try to heal the format is organising teaching guilds, or accepting r0 newbies into their ranks, and playing with them. HOWEVER the team shouldn't be composed of newbies, led by highly ranked monks - no, it should actually be the other way around, with only one or two r0's per group. This way, they may actually pick something from their teammates, and a group like that may win some matches, positively buffing the morale of everyone.
This way would require forming quite a bunch of incubator-guilds like that, not two or three total.


From ANet's side, there are two possibilities - breaking down HA into two, or more, outposts with respective rank ranges, or making HA randomized. The latter would actually kill the format, since being organised is one of its main reasons to exist. The former would prove difficult not only in implementation, but also wouldn't really heal HA, given its low playerbase nowadays.

So, how about mixing the two ways?
Break HA into two outposts.
The first would be for players (let's say) r0-r6, and it would be randomised. Some additional mechanics might be added to the randomisation process, so that we don't end up with a team of eight monks all the time. The rewards for winning would be much smaller, except for fame gained.
The second outpost would be for r7+ players, and it would be organised - it would work just as HA works nowadays.
On top of that, the requirements of fame for ranks could be cut down a bit, or fame might be acquired a bit faster than now - if not for r7+, then for the low-tier outpost.

I think you are missing the point. Poor or no accessabilty = low population. If you devide the ranks sure it will take some time, but that population can rank up a lot faster instead of giving up due to being farming fodder. I think the main reason the average ranked player would oppose this is NOT being able to farm low ranked players. assuming a divided rank was implemented, higher ranked players would be unaffected. In the while lower ranked players would have an easier time ranking up. Truly the only loss would be to rank farmers. I have yet to see a ranked group take a no or low ranked player. If ranked players were forced to play within their ranks ot would only make HA more of a challenge, isn't that the point?

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Nothing about this would be easier, same game, just no rank RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs keeping people out , or farming them.
Hell, read drkn's post, its almost always a slaughter fest assuming anyone even gets in. I understand that the handful of Hardcore PvPers are all about staying in tiny groups, and keeping the world out (hell, thats how PvXwiki does everything) but thats why your format is dead, you honestly did it to yourselves. When anyone suggests changing that by bringing in new players we get responses pretty much like this "NO GO GRIND LIKE WE DID!!!" Really? How many people got Bambi playing Iway? Exactly...

I do understand your point, but that's quite the reason why do people smurf in GvG...Matches are made according to whether you are worthy or not, and it's been shown than not many top100 are playing rated matchs on ladder, whereas there tend to be a few players on lower ranks.. It still happens that those people go smurf on lower rank, thus matchs are faster but those low ranks are still getting farmed...

The place is empty, when i go there i just want to take anyone to go fast, although i am r12, if i see there are few players inside. Only addicts or ridiculous players would just want absolutely r12 players, even if they had to wait hours... Besides, alliance battles or codex arena are empty( or very low population), but it's nothing with the low accessability...

If you have a correct level at mathematics , you can apply to this a population check with variables to each rank and see the obvious problems after some periods..

Its debatable whether splitting the pvp population by rank at this stage will hasten or slow the demise.
There are lessons to be learned for the future on how to run pvp, I favor a league system and always have.

Want a fun experience play with the beginners want a challenge move up to a higher ranked area.
Win enough and your forced to move up anyway.

I hope for the sake of gw1 generally some form of pvp remains for those who stay.

Granted its a very temporary solution, but adding that it would allow easier access via no trepidation about being pushed out due to lack of rank, that population would blossom rather quickly. Once people have excelled past their lower ranks, moving on to the next area would naturally grow the population. Its a double edged sword in that, for a short time the higher ranked players would see little to no population growth, inevitably players would gain ranks, and that population would then grow.

@ gremlin, as much as I like the idea of league play, it would do about the same thing. Good suggestion.

You don't solve an inactivity problem by further segmenting the population. Worse, I can tell you exactly what happens if we implement your suggestion:

Red /resign. If you guarantee low rank PvE players the opportunity to match up exclusively with low rank PvE players, they're simply going to exploit the Zaishen quest for free ZKeys.

People that complain about rank discrimination and elitism simply haven't experienced the problem from the other side. One subpar player can and will sink your team, and the best teams didn't get that way by bringing players that can't do their job. You should think less about what a prospective team can do for you, and more about how you can show a prospective team that you're worth taking.

Then force the zcombat to change as well, HA has relatively nice rewards as it stands. Make the Zcombat ranked as well. The higher the Rank, the Higher the difficulty, the higher the rewards.
As to having experienced the other side , I have seen what a bad player can do to a good group. But being forced to either BE ranked or GTFO is a condition of the system our own players have implemented. If HA players are content to only play the same 100 players for the rest of eternity so be it, but then don't complain about outposts you found a way to empty yourselves. As a higher ranked player with the system I suggest, those low ranked players you say can drag you down will have no impact on you, as they wouldn't be something you would even see until they have that precious experience. If High ranked play is the only concern, then there is 0 effect on your gameplay, that is , unless you are farming low groups, in which case, your out of luck.

There is no effect on the PvP population if we segment lower players, as you aren't taking them anyway. All this would do is segment the higher ranks from the lower, insuring newer players have an equal opportunity to play and enjoy the format.

Which will solve nothing, since your hypothetical PvE players that /resign will rapidly get enough fame to reach the higher tiers of rewards.

Eventually they'll reach a tier where people actually play, get trashed repeatedly and either quit or switch to an alternate account and repeat the process.

I fail to see how this improves things.

So failing to match for hours on end, or facing the same opponent repeatedly would be a good thing? People already run teams of alts during off-peak hours just so that they can get a match to spawn in Halls. Locking the scrubs out confers the opportunity to sit in Halls for hours on end abusing /resign for fame and profit.

Which is an incredibly terrible idea for the reasons above. You solve an inactivity problem by getting the players to pool in the same place, not by balkanizing them further.

First, I get your point, and understand where you're coming from. And I'm not gonna whine about rank discrimination, because from my experience I encountered enough people that didn't care about rank (my g2 helped to show I do have some very basic experience in pvp though).

True that one player that's sub-par has an impact on the team, but if you aren't taken in by any team, you aren't going to learn to play better either. When I was trying to slowly work my way towards a bambi with pugs, I was lucky enough that from time to time high-ranked teams took me in. Sure, they would have been alot better with a decent front-liner instead of me, being all ignorant spamming my derv skills. But thanks to them I learned some basics that other low ranked players wouldn't be able to (or wouldn't bother to) teach me. Hell, I was even allowed to play mesmer in an r7/8 team, when I didn't even have r3 ><. When the format is as dead as it is, giving new players a chance to show they can learn something is the only way to keep it alive a bit, I think.

What surprised me the most about HA is that after getting r3 with pugging, I took a small break. When I came back about a month later, there was litteraly no pugs forming (neither high or low rank, or even randomways). And it seems it's still that empty nowadays... How come it bled out so fast?

Higher ranked PvPers become hostile so quickly to newcomers because the newcomers don't listen. If the r0 newcomers were willing to listen to what the more experinced players tell them, they wouldn't be yelled at so much. Its funny to see these PvE kids that think after an hour of PvPing they are going to be able to compete with the higher rank PvPers. You need to understand these players have spent hundreds of hours PvPing. Your going to get rolled many times before you get good. You can't come in with the expectation your going to win every time. You have to put in hard work and time like the higher rank players did, they didn't get there over night and nor will you.

All you have to do is open your ears and listen to the more experinced players. I guarantee any newcomer who approaches a higher rank player and asks questions will NOT be turned away. They may not be willing to allow you into their current group, however after they are done farming their fame they would gladly offer to help. After every GvG match (I'm a gvger not HAer) with a low end guild I say 'GG, pm me if you need a guest'. If the Pvers are willing to listen/learn any GvGer/Haer will help you and your guild.

Next time any newcomer wants to form up GvG/HA. Ask questions and please listen to the answers. They (PvPers) might seem rough around the edges, but I find 90% of them will be more than willing to answer any of your questions.


Best of luck,
Slippin


Side Note: I don't claim to be good at PvP, I just enjoy it.

pretty much /winthread post

Problem with most of pve players is they don't wanna try to get better, they just want everything to be easy. I'm strongly against this idea, I want to get rewarded for my skill and hard work I put in the game, I refuse to have the same rewards as some guy wiht barely 20 hours of pvp experience.

And my point is made, they get trashed, they quit and move on, those that actually enjoy playing and CAN do so would only improve a dead game. Every zcombat has its downside. Offer no zcombat for HA for all I care. Hardcore players aren't there for the zcombat rewards anyway, and given the formats already ample rewards, there isn't a need for it.

Taking Part of a quote to suit your own needs is effective
It already happens, I fail to see the difference there... You already lock the "scrubs" out, you already wait for hours for a match IF you are lucky AND you already face the exact same opponents constantly.... poor argument there.

Where do you think they would go? They would go to there own Districts as suggested... The only real difference is that you would never have to deal with the "scrubs"... Its get better by learning or never move on... Not sure what you fear so much, is it that you might have more people playing the dead PvP? Loss of Epeen? Not sure what you oppose about it... clarify what would happen in a format that already has all the problems you think "might" happen, because for my money you are too late.

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Ah so for you it IS loss of epeen... they make meds for that I think... You must be very lonely since you refuse to share your experience... seems you like the idea of a dead format, OK. Go to PvE, you can pretty much play alone, would seem thats what you want.

Problem with the minority of PvE players (which i'm sure it's still plenty of them) that do want to get better, is that they don't even bother to try to play HA, or else they'd need to spend hours not playing the game to find other people and/ or do obscure stuff like going to forums asking for help.

Huge generalization. There are plenty of good PvE players, regardless of how many kids play PvE.

I play RA occasionaly because, you know, I actually get to play it, and I'm rewarded for my skill and investment. Ridiculous, right? I can consistently get more zboxes and zkeys for RA than a newbie! AB used to be like this too, when it was alive. Sure, random formats depend a lot on luck, but bad players screw their teams in RA/ AB over time nonetheless. JQ/ FA might be the exception because of the way they work (no streaks like RA, no organized team forming like AB).

I'd love for AB/ HA to have the option for random play in addition to team creation OR be totally randomized but with organized tournaments for the best players. Ah, and no title/ emote show for HA. Regardless of what some elites try to say even when the evidence is against them, when I and many others try to join a team in HA, it IS the title that determines who is to be accepted or not.

EDIT: And tone down the HA rewards if it were to be randomized, if it's needed. GvG is still there for the best players, it's also the better format, and casuals would have a new, fun option for 8v8 pvp instead of something dead.

Iv recently come back to GW after about 2 years break. Prior to the break i PvP'ed hugely, got rank 4, played RA very frequently, TA frequently. Getting a HA group was relatively easy.
Now its impossible, i only see R10+ advertised.
In RA alot of groups instant-resign.
Its very very hard for anyone to progress in PvP in the state its in

The random format is the best option for HA now. Its too late for anything else.

hahaha, I love all these people trying to say that rank discrimination is not a problem, and that people should just get better or just go out and make HA friends.

There is a reason that GW pvp is dying. The people who do it are too exclusive. If you don't want to join up with new or inexperienced people, then fine. Just make sure that you realize that people like you are the reason why so few new people are joining GW pvp (and don't try to blame it on other crap like lack of work ethic among PvEers).

Anyway, more on topic:

I would like to see an idea like this implimented in RA first. I am skeptical about how well this would work in an inactive, non-random 8v8 setting, but think it would be really nice for the active, random 4v4 setting that is RA. Make it so that the game only groups up people who are of a similar ranking in RA, and you end up with a win/win situation, since elitists and "pve scrubs" dont have to play with each other, and people get to compete against others with similar amounts of experience.

You're focusing on rank too much. It isn't the problem. The people who want to progress DO progress. Everyone else goes back to RA or cries elitism. I mean, this is basically whats going happen with this proposal:

r0-r3 - idiots vs idiots. 50/50 coin toss on who wins. Yay everybody gets a bambi, but nobody really learned much, except what the maps looks like (but not how to play them).

r4-r6 - Mostly idiots vs idiots still. A few people with brains are staring to shine, but the fact that most wins are easy due to nobody knowing how to best play maps and builds means that again, nobody has learned much.

r7+ - Everyone who zerged their way here against idiots is now dropped in with people who are experienced. 95% of people are going to drop out because they're no longer winning 50% of the time like they were against idiots. The people with a brain and the desire to improve are going to advance just like now. Pretty much the r7+ bracket is going to be as popular as it is now (ie not very). Maybe you'll get a short revival when old vets find there are a bunch of new players to farm, but both sets will soon quit again.

The point is, with the current system, its hard to rank up at first. But when you do so, its because you learn and improve and hence win against a r4 group for example. If its all in different rank brackets, then lower ranked people aren't going to have to think much, because nobody else does. They aren't going to have to improve much because nobody else does. All that happens is they gain an arbitrary number after their name.

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The only thing that will save pvp is more people with the right mindset. The portion that had the right mindset was never that huge to begin with. Considering the fact that the game is losing players left, right and centre, its unlikely that it will be revived (short of say, pvp going f2p, but that in itself would introduce a whole string of new problems).

The problem with PvP is that its not fun... and even if it was fun it is a system that is full of exploit...

As certain pvpers personally attest to on any pvp suggestion thread seen here... people play for the peen, the exclusivity of being able to exploit the system, and they don't want to share their status with anyone else... That is why it is a keep scrubs out closed system... people have no means "prove" themselves other than hours of getting there @$$ handed to them... and even then most of the time there is no avenue to make your total play time experience readily recognizable... That is not a fun game... "don't expect everything to be easy and work hard" is a good quote for life (or what you treat like life) but not for a game meant to be for enjoyment.

So the question is, should the format be kept the way it is to satisfy the few players that have manage to climb and close high ranks or fix it so the majority of guild wars players can enjoy it?

I am going to assume the answer to that question is "PvP should be made to where the majority of players enjoy it" because these threads keep getting made, and there is few that would argue nothing needs to be changed.

This being said... it probably can't be totally solved without a complete overhaul of the format.... but there are things that can be done to alleviate the symptoms of a dead format...

Manipulate the means of discrimination:

Part of the big problem with find groups is that little number under you name we come to know and love as rank... People that are not readily recognize as elite or experienced have a snowballs chance in hell of finding a group to accept them. Thus stopping their interest before it even began.

For this I would suggest fame should be awarded on the basis of participation and wins of completed matches... Of course wins would rewarded with reasonably more.... but this would give starting players and teams an avenue to make it easy to get into higher rank teams as they are "learning" the amount of discrimination against them lessens....

Limit consecutive win streaks to a single digit number:

Part of the reason it takes so damn long to form a team is because people want it to be absolutely perfect... If there was less focus on hours long streaks... people will find it more productive to take the risk of talking a not so experienced player because there is not high benefit to be had by waiting for a more perfect player for hours long win steaks.

Remove the resign function from all PvP:

Another problem with attitude towards the means of discrimination its easily exploitable by this red resign like syncing that we have.... People don't want to enter a game if they know already its not being played fairly.. Some generally look at PvP titles especially codex as syncer titles and don't feel like its worth their time to enter the PvP system legitimately. Not to mention the addition of PvE rewards has only giving more incentive to exploit the system and hurting the legitimacy of the entire game economy. (but thats a story for another thread)

I realize that some people would say "do you know how much a pain of the ass it is when you bring the wrong skills and exit to reform your team" well that enter button is only meant to be pushed when your ready... if you screwed up... that is the game play it out and try again.


Given that the format itself is a major problem because people don't find it fun or worth their free time... These are simple effort effective solutions that could be put in place to alleviate some of the social symptoms of why the format died

Thank you, I think you just showed why HA is dead. The "right Mindset" is just elitist BS doublespeak for the exact same thing being said by everyone not rank masturbating or stroking each others ample egos. "NO RANK?!?!?!11! GTFO SCRUB!" is exactly why the VERY small handful of people left ARE the very small handful to begin with. Generally speaking, nobody likes a jerk.

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Come on now, you really don't think every idiot in the game is gonna go in there to get a bambi now they're only going to face other unranked players, most of who are also gonna be bad? Seriously? The lower tiers will be RA 2.0. There's a reason these people never made it over the course of the last 6 years, they don't have the right mindset. As in - You lose. What do you do? Rage on the group? No, you think - why did we lose? Tactics, build, positioning, calling, a weak link in the team? The idiots I'm referring to pay no attention to self improvement or analyzing. These are key aspects to PvP, they were never cut out for HA anyway. All that happens with this is they get a bambi by farming other poor players, they don't LEARN. When they encounter the experienced players they will quit, just like they do now.

Cry elitist all you want, but this is a fact. Its quite clear HA needs people with the right mindset, not people who quit when they encounter good players. It was active and people advanced from nothing to r8+ for what, a good 5 years? Explain that if its all because of elitism herpderp.

It isn't rank. It never was an issue for the 5 years of HA's activity and it isn't now. Its because the game is 6 years old, a sequel is out this year and the playerbase has completely dropped of a cliff. Its dead.

The lack of activity can be directly attributed to rank.... for someone thats been here since the very beginning and used to play HA when it was still in tombs of primeval kings.... before the whole title function intro-ed near the release of factions... it was damn easy to get a team because all you had to do was show up.... They added rank and it was a degenerative effect to what we have now, because it turned to a e-peen focused format.

And people seem to be forgetting this is a damn video game... not a job... not a blood sport... It shouldn't need incentive.. it shouldn't need community organization... it shouldn't need the right attitude to play... the idea that "people just to have the right mind set" is just lunacy.... People don't play things they don't find fun, period... therefore pvp is a broken game, period... to fix things you need to change things....

People are not going to learn much by getting totally dominated... you cant expect people to get rolled and go hmm I lost because of X reason, it isn't that cut and dry... because you don't lose for the same reasons, nor are those reasons even clear to an inexperienced person.

You want people to stop crying elitist stop essentially yelling at people "just be better like me and everything will be fine". and talking about lower ranked people like there idiots... that is the very definition of elitism my friend. your proof for anyone that has ever cried elitism, you ain't nothing special just because you happen to have a number under your name and others don't, and doesn't mean the format shouldn't be tailored to be a video game everyone wants to play..

You want to fix HA? You should be talking to people that playing the game (not people on guru) and creating community events that arise interest and awareness .

-Changing and playing around with formats does not arise community interest. We saw that with Codex.

-Adding new rewards does not arise community interest. We saw this with most formats aside from title-grinding areas, aka JQ/FA.

-Shaking up the meta with skill updates arises little interest for new players, right up until the next cookie-cutter build dominates the meta. We've been seeing this with the flux every month.


I can tell that this thread is going to derail fast into the people who don't believe in rank discrimination vs. the people who do, right up until a mod decides to close it. This happens every. single. time.

you see the problem is
old player see new players noob
new players see old player elite.
there is no middle ground for them to cooperate.

this year april fool idea
friend/guild list disappear
rank remove.
see whether this will help HA for a day....

Sure rank added a boundary to entry, but that boundary didn't kill it, everyone quitting the game because its old and they're bored of it killed it.

Hence why there's plenty of easy to join & play formats. RA, FA, JQ, AB. theres a big difference in the ask of players between high level and low level play. You can't get by never wanting to put in a lot of time, take advice, analyse and improve hence there is a mindset required for it. If you don't want to put in that effort, that's completely fine and that's why there's plenty of other formats for those who don't.

They wouldn't be getting totally dominated if there was a steady flow of the right kind of players, because there would be a steady stream of all ranks just like yesteryear. That isn't happening because the game is dead at this point.

You sir are proving the point with each post that there IS a problem with the mindset you want.

The reason organized pvp in GW is dead is because it feels like work. The game is meant to be fun, enjoyable and rewarding. HA has not felt like these since 2006. As I have said before people work and go to school, they have lives. They don't want to waste their game time getting nowhere in HA because it takes forever to find a group, guilds don't take newbies often enough for them to progress and there are 11 maps on the way to HoH if there are no skips.

GWs was meant to have PvP as endgame but that was a mistake. When Anet finally shifted for PvE to have its own endgame they didn't balance out many of the PvP formats to be more casual. This is why JQ/FA/RA reign supreme and GvG/HA are corpses.

Elitism is a problem or else you would see more life in HA. The design of HA makes people act this way though. The title bar moves slower as people rank up and with the next shiny emote is further away than than last one. This makes the higher ranks think the newbies as nothing but liabilities. Its also impossible to win a match with r3s when its mostly populated by r10s.

At this late stage in the game HA requires a significant format change to become active again. The proposed idea by the OP would only make it more hated and Anet would be cursed by the players for it.

1.) If it was just because of people leaving the game... there would be problem areas in other formats that are non-ranked based.... This has amplified the problem but is not the direct cause.

2.) There is a huge social barrier when it comes to formats like HA and GvG because once people have their defined teams they have no interest in helping others come into the format. Its not that people don't have the right mind set, and it can't be fixed by telling people to get the right mind set, nor is it something anet can fix... this is a problem because have no reasonable and clear cut avenue to improve themselves and become acceptable into higher formats... until there is a solution to simplify the situation.. or give people some kind of in game training to complete... this will remain a problem. There are community events for this but its to little to late. an adjustment of the means of discrimination is required.

3.) I can agree with you there.... this may be a time to find acceptable the idea of awarding fame for participation so people will feel like they are gaining means to fight discrimination and stay. In other words... its completely acceptable to roll over newbs... but if you want them to stay throw them a bone... don't expect many people to be satisfied with just the learning experience of a video game and nothing to show for it in game.

Even with idiots vs idiots eventually one idiot will learn enough to start winning consistently and will move up to harder opponents.
The problem with a totally open pvp often there are some very good people in there and being beaten continuously discourages rather than encourages.

When many of you started pvp some 6+ years ago you began on a level footing and all learned together.
Anyone entering now is likely to come up against players and teams that have such an advantage in experience it will take a very long time to learn much and begin winning.

I think the real reason the older players are against a league or ranking system is that it will remove all the easy wins they get from playing idiots.
Instead every match would be against their peers which is as it should be.

bring back 6v6

It's probably already stated but trying to split districts by rank in a format that's already dead isn't a good idea

cormac man, i thought itold u this on vent a while ago, i suggested this already and it was shot down. the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thing is always mouthed like a parrot from everyone.

"too much to implement"
"too much cause of gw2 they wont do it"
this is a public forum. your job is to post your thoughts and opinions and ideas. NOT to say what goes and does not. but to vote on if u woudl liek it done. THEY decide if it can be done, THEY decide if they WILL do it.

simply

/sign
or /unsign

dont do this for personal gain. do this for the GAME and the community.

"ectos will shot up, HA will be over farmed"

so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING WHAT?!
just so u can run the same damn team build over and over?! which couldnt take any skill at all?! indeed....rage completed u Fxn Muppets!

Could always try putting the 3 formats on a rota system. 3 days RA is available then switches to HA for 3 days then CA for the final 3. That way all the PvPers will be funnelled into one format for a limited amount of time, and if they really hate that format they just have to wait a little time(i.e. CA for me, i can go without doing it for 3 days and do JQ/FA instead.)
Although the one major problem with this would be the bonus weekends, but i'm sure Anet could work out a way to either make it applicable for all 3 formats for the weekend(in case of it switching whilst the bonus is running) or having it so that that format is open for the weekend too(i.e. HA bonus weekend falls when CA is on the rota so you get access to both)

Just an idea seeing as the majority of PvPers play in both RA and HA(and to some degree CA).

There's probably a reason as well codex has been empty since the 1st day it was implemented, yet it has nothing to do with rank discrimination. The problem is like someone stated, it's not rank discrimination but about fun...

You can include in " fun" :
- rank discrimination in the form of " it's not fun being rolled by top players 24/7", but even if there was no discrimination, people would complain about pugs getting rolled by guild teams, nothing new...
- not fun waiting hours to find people or to get an opponent while a few guys are syncing codex/gvg/ha permanently and instantly leaving if they see you
- it's not really fun facing the same build on each map
- it's not really fun requiring hours to expect a full run + praying to not get any leaver/disconnect
- halls map 1v1 is completly unfair and isn't fun

The best that could be done, like i said i don't know how many times, would be to use embark bay as a start place for every PvP district.. By then, players will see which formats are played and it will be much easier...

Aside of that, making 1 international districts , removing /resign and making multi launch obvious abuse bannable would be great... But well, you see that's much work...

side note :I'm sorry to say this, or to even talk about hero battles, but it was quite a easy format for PvE'rs to begin and work with, yet not that many did try to play seriously...