Replacing the Invoke Ele

Quote: Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Well, I've been getting quite a bit of success by replacing the Invoke Eles with Clamor Rits. Basic build is:

Clamor of souls
Spirit rift
Splinter weapon
Ancestor's rage
Cruel was daoshen
Ghostly Haste

+ 2 more. (Fall back and whatever, you can even offspec for a heal if you want)

Lamentation is sort of ok, but requires ghostly haste, and for obvious reasons, you need a MM (splinter targets) and something like a SoS in the party.

As for Energy management, I'm addicted to BiP. Dang, you've been faster then me. I was testing this idea (Clamor of souls) but the loss of SoS or ST is a big hit. Or you're primary Rit, or you have mercs, or we'll have to play around with the team build a bit more.

I still use Searing Flames on my ele hero, and find it to be really good, but then maybe it helps I am searing flames too?

@Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb). Ideally, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s. There is no time to deal damage with Searing Flames. If you want you can compare the single-target damage coming from Invoke Lightning + Lightning Orb vs. two casts of Searing Flames. Especially since you're not using any other skills with Searing Flames (e.g. Liquid Flame Fireball etc), which means you deal even less damage.

Not using AP Air is a big gamble because the control ability of AP Air relative to every other non-AP build is huge. Being able to take out any monster I choose in 6 seconds can easily swing a fight, and lets me get away with less healing.

@Dervish - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not. Going with melee heroes brings a crap ton of restrictions, and they don't provide damage on demand since they might not be able to get to the called target.

@3.14159 - I'm skeptical that Chain Lightning @ 14 Air outdamages (say) Fireball @ 18 Fire. Besides even if it does there are two 25e spells on that bar, both of which need to be cast fairly often and so might strain GoLE out.

@SongOf - if you don't use Rodgort's what else is there to use in Fire? Immolate? Incendiary Bonds? How do those even compare to Rodgort's? As for not using Fire Eles vs. monsters resistant to Fire, one of the nicest things about Invoke Eles are that they work everywhere. Thanks to Cracked Armour + armour penetration, they continue to do great damage against Lightning-resistant monsters (which are uncommon). Also, that simply shifts the burden to another hero. What other Invoke replacement works against monsters that resist Fire? Do you have a build?

@WarcryOfTruth - they don't get zeroed out, sure, but they stop casting Invoke. At some maximum energy the AI stops using Exhaustion spells.

@LexTalionis - I only have two Rits and they're both occupied too >_< Still it's an interesting idea. I tried using Channeling not so long ago but the big damage spell (i.e. Spirit Rift) is delayed effect that easily misses, while the rest don't deal anywhere near as much damage as Air Magic (although they are admittedly cheaper). Ghostly Haste is an interesting idea. I'll give it a closer look later.

@Daesu - The drawback is the smaller spec in Command, and the fact that Dom Mesmers can use every point in Dom, FC and Inspiration. You can drop from 12 Energy Storage to 9 with little drawback, but not for FC or Inspiration. And if you skimp on Inspiration, you have less energy to power "Fall Back!" too.

@Skyy High - there already are builds that work against (almost) every area in the game actually: SDM. It's not much slower than pre-nerf Invoke for the majority of players. And I wouldn't care if ANet nerfed Invoke because it's a vital PvE 7H build. That's not the reason the nerf happened, however; it's a PvP change that probably spilled over to PvE because ANet isn't aware of Invoke's place. No surprises there though because Invoke users are rather rare.

Anyway I suspect there's a satisfactory solution out there, I just have to find it.

@AndrewSX and Jeydra:

Yeah, sorry >_< I forgot to mention that I'm using mercs. In my opinion, it's a lot more effective than just going with 3 mesmers though - if you can ball stuff up for spirit rift and multiple splinters, the cracked armour and ancestors rage spam tends to wipe stuff pretty quickly, especially with cruel was daoshen backing it up. It's a pity Hero Rits don't use DWG properly, or I'd use that instead.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that I'm running it tankstyle on my Water Ele, abusing the fact that Mirror of Ice becomes a 140++ damage AoE nuke with a 6 second recharge(!) and a near perpetual 66% snare if you target yourself. This balls up enemies really nicely for all the Rit AoE and stops them from escaping. For single target damage, Vapor Blade really isn't that bad, especially with cracked Armor. It does really huge damage if you carry enough enchantment stripping.

Water Ele main build list is:
Mirror of Ice
Frozen Burst
Vapor Blade
Armor of Mist (sometimes Frost)
Water Attunement
+ 3 PvE skills or Glyph of Elemental Power or whatever. For Melee heavy areas like raptors, pump Air magic to 8 and use Lightning Touch. Of course, it's not as strong as AP caller will be, but it's kind of fun to play.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

@3.14159 This made me smile. I wasn't sure how useful the snare would be either tbh.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra @Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb). Ideally, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s. There is no time to deal damage with Searing Flames. If you want you can compare the single-target damage coming from Invoke Lightning + Lightning Orb vs. two casts of Searing Flames. Especially since you're not using any other skills with Searing Flames (e.g. Liquid Flame Fireball etc), which means you deal even less damage. Searing Flames isnt about dealing spike damage on 1-3 targets, its about hitting whole groups of backlines or frontlines and taking them down within 3-4 seconds. The advantage over Invoke is that it hits everything within Invoke range and adds a small amount of pressure through burning. You don't need to focus on important targets because no mob can heal x3-4 Searing Flames on an entire backline. You shouldn't be using any other fire spells besides GG, heroes need to spam Searing Flames with a 40/40 set.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX Returning IT, i think i'm going to test a bit more a simple change to the elite of the onl builds. Replacing 2x Invokes with Thundherclap, BSurge or something else looks interesting, but don't know how much powerful. Btw, i'm quite sure that there aren't great direct dmg option anymore for elites, but shifting the builds more to support/utility will probably be the result. As i said before for example, old build switching Invoke for Gust works wonderfully if using a meele. Matter of try out all the options - maybe looking down to 2nd profs and EStorage too. Tried tons of combinations with the new elites and they are all pretty lackluster.

Quote: Originally Posted by Swingline Searing Flames isnt about dealing spike damage on 1-3 targets, its about hitting whole groups of backlines or frontlines and taking them down within 3-4 seconds. The advantage over Invoke is that it hits everything within Invoke range and adds a small amount of pressure through burning. You don't need to focus on important targets because no mob can heal x3-4 Searing Flames on an entire backline. You shouldn't be using any other fire spells besides GG, heroes need to spam Searing Flames with a 40/40 set. And that's why it's bad. No, you do not kill mobs in 3-4s. Proof: it takes 2s for Searing Flames to recharge, and then another 1s to cast Searing Flames again. Unless you are killing mobs with two Searing Flames casts - which I need video evidence to believe - you are exaggerating.

If you think no mob can heal through SF, try bringing a team of 6 SF Eles with 2 E/Mo Prots and killing the first mob in Duncan HM. I'll be one of the E/Mo's if you like, and bring three fully runed SF heroes.

I think Searing Flames is quite bad in general, and especially bad as an Invoke replacement.

@AndrewSX - that's what I'm trying ... in fact I'm trying to revamp the entire teambuild, doing things like taking prots off the MM, heals off the SoS, etc. I just haven't found a solution yet. I can't imagine Gust taking the place of Invoke however. Not only does it deal less damage, it doesn't get armour penetration and has longer cooldown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis It's a pity Hero Rits don't use DWG properly, or I'd use that instead. How do heroes use DWG? I imagine they'd maintain it, and then run up to mobs to drop it?

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

The hallmarks of the original Invoke Ele were:

1. Ability to spec 9 points or more into a second attribute, e.g. Command Shouts. You're lowering your Energy Storage, not your Air spec. How is that any different than people who do for example 16 Fire, 10 Energy, 9 Protection and run Aegis/Prot Spirit on their eles?

The Cracked Armor + armor penetration argument is moot now that HM armor is replaced with high HP. Cracked Armor helps any line of magic, not just Air, but if you insist on using it, Weaken Armor, even at dirt low spec is a far superior source than Air.

You seemed to have missed the point again regarding resistance. Why you would argue that Air is still good against Air resistant enemies is beyond me. Why waste your time knowing you're damage is being gimped?

So yeah, again there are more Fire resistant enemies in the game (the majority of them end game), but that doesn't mean in comparison Fire is less desirable than Air, it means you're incompetent if you don't swap Fire out.

Anyway it sounds like I'm just a Fanboy of Fire magic, I'm not lol. I really love putting together counter builds versus dungeon themes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

@AndrewSX - that's what I'm trying ... in fact I'm trying to revamp the entire teambuild, doing things like taking prots off the MM, heals off the SoS, etc. I just haven't found a solution yet. I can't imagine Gust taking the place of Invoke however. Not only does it deal less damage, it doesn't get armour penetration and has longer cooldown. The point is that probably there isn't anything atm able to perform what old Invokers were able to. I mentioned Gust only in a Meele Player enviroment, and it works...quite good, if you can be satisfied by seeing every mob around you be KD (with all the tactical and rupts meanings).

But it's obvious that is isn't even closer to the uncond low CD low cost on demand high dmg of the old Invoke.

doesn't the third fall back only need to be like 5-6 seconds anyway?

other than dual attune fire, i think ranger might be workable with low command spec and change ancestor's for splinter on the rit - although you have to work around awkward attributes and possible energy issues (14exp, 14 mark, 6 command or something)

Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Quote: Originally Posted by Swingline

...and there's the problem. They can't be satisfied. Well, it's right too, Invoke was soo good.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have a feeling that people tend to underestimate the value of the 25% armour penetration from Air. If you crunch the numbers you will find that they do not support Jeydra's blanket conclusion that Air is dead. Injured yes, but no more dead than say, fire.

In part this is why it's so hard to find a replacement for the old Invoke build. Air magic becomes (relatively) better as the armour level gets higher.

Fire serves well for groups of Lvl26 human foes that now have AL60. Beyond that it starts to lose it's advantage. It could be argued that fire helps most when you need it least.

I do not believe an equal replacement to invoke can be found within the elementalist class.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra Switch primary element to Fire and use Elemental Attunement - feels like the most effective replacement right now. The main build is 16 Fire, 10 Energy Storage, 9 Command @ Immolate + Fireball + Liquid Flame + Rodgort's Invocation + Fire Attunement + Elemental Attunement + Glyph of Lesser Energy + "Fall Back!". It sucks to have to use GoLE with dual attunements but the hero has the tendency to cast Rodgort's without both attunements up, and once that happens he can't dig himself out of the energy hole (I tried Glowing Gaze + Glyph of Elemental Power and he ran out of energy). It's possible this build can be improved but I'm not sure. I've tried several variants on this build, and they all suffer from the same problem: the $%&#@! hero AI just doesn't like to use Rodgort's. Open the hero panel and watch it through an easy area, and you will see that:Roughly 9 out of 10 times, if given Rodgort's and at least one other recharged offensive spell to pick from, it will pick the other spell. Roughly 7 out of 10 times, if given Rodgort's as its only recharged spell and available targets that are solo or adjacent, it will $%&#@! wait for Fireball to recharge and use Fireball instead. I shit you not, the AI will stand around and wand stuff while waiting for Fireball rather than use Rodgort's. This is quite infuriating, since much of the potential for the build is wasted by the hero AI being dumb.

(Since humans don't suffer from the same idiocy, it might make a nice player build for people who refuse to use AP. Something like: Rodgort's, Fireball, Lava Arrows, Weaken Armor, EBSoH, Ele Lord, E Attune, F Attune maybe...)

Also, while one can debate whether EA-Fire is superior to SF if both builds are used properly, I don't see much of a question which is better when the AI uses SF correctly, but won't $%&#@! use Rodgort's when it should.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra @Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb). Ideally, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s. There is no time to deal damage with Searing Flames. If you want you can compare the single-target damage coming from Invoke Lightning + Lightning Orb vs. two casts of Searing Flames. Especially since you're not using any other skills with Searing Flames (e.g. Liquid Flame Fireball etc), which means you deal even less damage. 1. You exaggerate too. In practice, SF is usually damage on demand since the target is usually already burning. In the optimal case, you lose only one cast of SF on one of two SF heroes towards burning at the very start of the battle; after that MoR goes up and SF's large AoE radius means it keeps re-triggering MoR on everything, thus keeping SF doing direct damage rather than burning. You don't always get the optimal case, but what you usually get is a lot closer to the optimal case than to this "no damage on demand" case that you're describing. (I'd hazard a guess that two SF heroes with one copy of MoR probably waste SF casts towards burning less frequently than EA-Fire heroes stand there and wand because they don't want to cast Rodgort's.)

2. It's unreasonable to expect 6-sec spikes from potential replacement builds when Invoke+LS didn't really live up to that in the first place. Monster number 1 is a dead duck since he's going to get everything chain cast at him; but monster number 2 is going to get a respite while things recharge; and from there on out recharge issues are going to make unloading the full payload take somewhat longer than 6 sec. (Of course, unhealed AoE damage is going to make later monsters not necessarily need a full payload to kill; but that's true for every build that uses significant AoE.) SF damage over the same realistic average time period old Invoke-CL needed to drop its full payload is slightly lower (so is every other option on the table) but at least in the same ballpark. (Spikiness aside, it also seems to be the highest DPS.)

3. Who says you can't slot fireball in a SF build?

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142 Master of magic!!!1111 Take a few useful skills from everywhere.

Flawless. I thought of that too. Unfortunately, the hero AI does not prioritize MoM. Often it'll sit there casting its spells at 0 spec. Doh!

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra Keep Invoke Lightning, ditch Chain Lightning - tried this out, hero still runs out of energy. He runs out of energy slower, but run out he will. Does not work.

Keep Chain Lightning, ditch Invoke Lightning - tried this out, not only does the hero still run out of energy there aren't many good skills in Air Magic to compensate. Does not work. I didn't fool with it for too long, but I found that using just CL the exhaustion never hit the point where the AI would stop using it. The bigger issue for me is that Air no longer has two big-damage AoE spells on acceptable recharge.

Quote: Switch primary element to Water - not enough useful skills in Water to even try. If Shatterstone had 4s cooldown + 1s cast + detonated on death it might be able to carry the entire Water line on its back, but no, it does not. Are you sure Shatterstone doesn't pop if removed early? Wiki says it does. Of course, wiki could be wrong...

Quote: Use Death Magic - there aren't many good non-minion skills in Death Magic. There's Deathly Swarm, Discord and Putrid Bile; that's all. That does mean there's plenty of room for something else, but also means there's not much in the way of damage. Deathly Swarm is NOT Invoke Lightning; in fact it is very much worse. Putrid Bile isn't very good either, but then it's a non-elite so can't complain. Discord being conditional is a big strike against it as well because it forces me to AP (and even then the AI doesn't cast it on recharge, and it isn't AoE). Other skills like Vile Miasma tend to tempt the AI into casting them instead of Discord, even if the conditions are met. Assuming (even though you disagree) that Deathly Swarm post-update is more-or-less on par with LS pre-update, the damage obviously doesn't compare because Discord is just so much worse than Invoke. I wouldn't look at this sort of build as replacement for Invoke+LS so much as a change to the minion guy your party already has to bring more of a "rainbow spike" capability to the overall team.

Quote: If all the monsters who heavily resist Fire left bodies, it'd be possible to patch up the Death Magic bar with Animate spells and only use them when the Fire Eles aren't viable, but no, things like Ruby Djinn exist. Seriously? How many zones that have Djinn are also so short on corpses that minions aren't viable? Hidden City mission, maybe Forgewight, and I can't think of any others.

Lol Swingline just can't accept that SF is a bad skill. No, you cannot stomp one Stone Summit Defender + one Stone Summit Healer in 3-4s with SF. Or if you think you can, upload a video, or some form of screenshot with inherent timing (e.g. you stomp the Monks before "Fall Back!" recharges more than 1/4 of the way). Until then I rest my case.

@SongOf - there's no difference, I do it all the time with all my builds. Cracked Armour support affects Air less partly because of armour penetration and partly because of Lightning Orb's auto-application of Cracked Armour. Weaken Armour is sexy and all but it's not always available on demand (and to see the increase in damage you need to have Weaken Armour up before you cast your spells). Air Magic can punch through Lightning-resistant monsters, so it's not that much of a drawback. Finally I think Fire isn't a complete replacement to Invoke, but it's a good partial one. The problem is there hasn't been the second half of that replacement, the one that covers Fire-resistant monsters.

@Gabs88 - not dropping DWG might actually be good since the armour penetration is much appreciated. As for that SoI bar, only primary Mesmers can run it so it's out too.

@Dust - the spec for Rangers is difficult because you need 14 Expertise. Choice is not a factor; not having 14 Expertise means the 10e Bow attacks are very expensive. With Marksmanship spec not negotiable as well that leaves like 3 points for Command. I could drop to 15 Marksmanship, but still it's 10e for "Fall Back!" and Rangers don't get good energy management.

@Cthon - no the AI doesn't use Rodgort's Invocation on recharge. So what? Liquid Flame and Fireball still deal 133 damage in an AoE; that's still pretty impressive. The AI doesn't use ESurge on recharge either; I learn to live with it.

SF is usually not damage on demand because the target is usually not burning. It takes one cast of Searing Flames to set him on fire, and after he dies, it takes another cast of Searing Flames to set the next target on fire, unless you are getting good balls (which I usually do not get). Besides if it takes 3-4s to kill one target then by the third target the original burning from the first cast is gone. Mark of Rodgort's AoE is too small to be of much relevance, and you need to get it onto a target before you can start dealing damage. The only way to ensure SF damage is on demand is via Glyph of Immolation, which is not cheap since it conflicts with GoLE. EDIT: Oh yeah and condition removal pwns SF damage.

Invoke really did do 6s spikes. It has enough skills. 6s recharge on Invoke + Chain as well as 5s recharge on Lightning Orb means targets die on demand. The same does not apply to Searing Flames (and to some extent Fire Magic as a whole).

Swingline said you can't (shouldn't) slot Fireball / Liquid Flame etc in a SF build.

I meant Shatterstone does not detonate when the target dies, unless it is Shatterstone itself that did the last hit (this link.

The fact that monsters heavily resistant to Fire and don't leave corpses exist means Death Magic + Fire Magic is not a universal replacement to Invoke. It leaves holes, because it means now in addition to Fire Ele + Death Nec you need something that specifically targets Ruby Djinn. The search for the ultimate teambuild goes on.

I suggested Curses because however you look at it it's an option. Not a very good one, but it's an option.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ichibank

Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon

I really don't care for Spirit Rift -- it's just too clunky no matter how you cut it. Clamor is pretty low damage. I really think the fire-based options -- both SF and EA-Fire (despite the AI problems) -- are going to out-damage this. The only thing it really has going for it is compressing your melee-support Channeling stuff with a nuker of sorts. I guess that might pay off if it means a free party slot that you can spend effectively. Not really. SF has always had nasty issues with Natural Resistance bosses on HM (duration goes down to 3.5 sec) and I've always said the main problem with SF is that it's great at killing stuff that's not very difficult to kill already.

I've already said the only reason Spirit Rift works well on that build is because I'm Mirror tanking, which makes it nearly impossible for enemies to get out of Spirit Rift. The benefit of Ritualist nuking is burst damage - With the obvious exception of Rift (which is really there for Cracked Armor, and not the damage), most Channeling nukes are very very fast - and you still have full access to other Ritualist trees + runes, which gives you access to a whole lot of useful skills - Spirit Light is a decent heal at 5 resto, for example. Clamor of Souls is a lot more impressive once you factor in 10% AP and Cracked.

Other bonuses include massive splinter weapon abuse, which frequently (but definitely not always) outdamages anything SF could reasonably do (using balling + minions) and not being horribly dependent on fire attunement.

This seems to have potential: heroes actually use Arcane Mimicry fairly OK. They will target it on anyone who has an elite he's specced into. That means you can have one Elemental Attunement hero and then one E/Me SF Ele with Arcane Mimicry, and he will "maintain" Elemental Attunement on recharge (up to downtime). You can't run more than one of this hero unless you're prepared to micro however, because they will mimic each other's Searing Flames. Still, micro'ing isn't too hard since EA has such a long uptime; the drawback is you have to micro the skill twice (since you must disable Mimicry, the hero will not put up EA himself afterwards). The one time I actually had two such Eles and microed them, they exploded mobs noticeably faster, so the build must be doing something right.

This template feels like a good starting point:

16 Fire
13 Energy Storage

Searing Flames [E]
Arcane Mimicry
Immolate
Rodgort's Invocation
Glyph of Immolation
Liquid Flame
Fire Attunement
Aura of Restoration

+20% enchant weapon is essential, and even then there's downtime on Elemental Attunement.

The big (BIG) drawback of this build relative to the original Invoke Ele is that it can't have "Fall Back!". It's also very vulnerable to enchantment removal, and you must have one EA Ele. But in return the damage it pumps out is definitely superior, especially with a 8s burning Searing Flames that really is damage on demand. Hero doesn't run out of energy during EA downtime either, for some reason.