In short, I've been messing around with AP lately. Testing a few different builds on a few different characters. Trying to figure out which one does the best overall job as an AP caller. And perhaps making a list of all classes with pros and cons after.
Hoping some others will chip in here with some pros and cons lists for their professions. Since they exist in almost infinite variety. Might burn myself here but only including the ones that I concider actual contenders. And I also concider alternative builds and variety a factor since having a character that is effectively tied up to a single type of build in order to stay effective is no fun. Alternative builds must be hero friendly, meaning that it must be a build you would want to play as a player character in a hero team.
And though I have not mentioned it in the pros and cons, effectiveness when AP gets stripped should also be a factor. Aka are you just standing there doing nothing if you mess up or are you still going to be contributing to the teams efforts?
Fully aware the lists of pros and cons is incomplete ATM but i will edit the main post later.
Assassin
Pros:
Variety of builds and higher level Deathly Arts, AL 70.
Can run any secondary effectively.
Can effectively run melee builds as well, even AP ones.
Cons:
Using secondary professions for damage can often be subpar to using primaries.
Elementalist
Pros:
Large energy pool
Allows for both strong single target and strong AOE, helping to finish off targets.
Can bring utility such as KDs
Can use several different builds (Air, Fire, Earth and Water are all viable)
Several other viable builds for variation
Cons:
Lack of effective cover hexes
Needs attunement and GOLE for energy management
Mesmer
Pros:
Fast casting
Double EVAS build
Easy and effective cover hexes
Several other viable builds for variation
Can remove protective enchantments
Cons:
Active Energy management (presuming you use aspicious incantation)
Monk
Pros:
Access to both offensive and defensive AP builds, such as Aegis Chaining, AP bonding
Low energy recuirement
Signets penetrate spell immunity
Cons:
No effective cover hexes
Necromancer
Pros:
Several viable AP builds
Soul Reaping
Easy cover hexes
Can bring Necrosis over YMLAD or FH
Can do good AOE damage
Can remove protective enchantments
Cons:
Slow casts
Ritualist
Pros:
Explosive Growth, Boon of Creation and Spirits gift works with AP
Very good when stuff dies fast
Cons:
Vulnerable to enchantment removal (slow recasts)
Massive lack of single target damage to help spike
Best AP caller?
Gabs88
Outerworld
Probably either Mes or Nec for best. Eles ran it because they had shit all else (not sure if thats even changed), and likewise for Monks. Can't say I would ever feel to the need to even run the Rit or Sin varient.
Alboo Assassin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
Assassin
Pros:
Variety of builds and higher level Deathly Arts, AL 70.
Can run any secondary effectively.
Can effectively run melee builds as well, even AP ones.
Cons:
Using secondary professions for damage can often be subpar to using primaries.
Necromancer
Pros:
Several viable AP builds
Soul Reaping
Easy cover hexes
Can bring Necrosis over YMLAD or FH
Can do good AOE damage
Can remove protective enchantments
Cons:
Slow casts
When i was getting GWAMM on my dervish, i ran AP bars with discord hero's almost everywhere, wasnt exactly the greatest option for a dervish.
Lately ive been title hunting on my sin, and when i have run AP bars on him, it seems really underpowered in terms of outside damage, I feel people make this one out to be something that it is not, Necro on the otherhand i think is one of the best AP callers in the game and has been the most effective in my experiences. But hey, everyone has their opinion xD
Kunder
Power-wise it boils down to Necromancer Vs Mesmer, MoP vs 2x EVAS. Which is better is very situationally dependant. MoP is useless against low numbers of strong enemies, but balls to the wall awesome against large groups. Would give the edge to Necromancer for most of PvE myself, since I feel the loss of 2x EVAS isn't too much of a burden even in small group areas.
A/Me is just a Me/A without Fast Casting, overall weaker but not significantly so.
Rit is fairly meh. Spirit's Gift/Explosive Growth aren't that reliable with enemies moving all over the place, even when they do work they don't make up for not having what Necro or Mesmer has. The condition removal is cute but conditions aren't important unless its dazed.
Elementalist has nothing useful.
Monk isn't really an AP-spike build, merely a defensive build that utilizes AP. Running AP offensively is impossible without good energy management, which monks do not have.
As far as build variety goes, every class has infinite build variety so long as you are ok with crappy builds. Most of the time you use AP you only use a max of 1 or 2 non-PvE skills anyway, so all AP builds end up playing 95% the same between the classes (other than monk).
A/Me is just a Me/A without Fast Casting, overall weaker but not significantly so.
Rit is fairly meh. Spirit's Gift/Explosive Growth aren't that reliable with enemies moving all over the place, even when they do work they don't make up for not having what Necro or Mesmer has. The condition removal is cute but conditions aren't important unless its dazed.
Elementalist has nothing useful.
Monk isn't really an AP-spike build, merely a defensive build that utilizes AP. Running AP offensively is impossible without good energy management, which monks do not have.
As far as build variety goes, every class has infinite build variety so long as you are ok with crappy builds. Most of the time you use AP you only use a max of 1 or 2 non-PvE skills anyway, so all AP builds end up playing 95% the same between the classes (other than monk).
Gabs88
Crappy builds are not real options though. Btw, Necro is pretty darn good with AP / Death too. Probably better then AP / Curse cause of bigger AOE
Kunder
I must be missing the death magic skill that can do 500 AoE damage with a single casting, could you point it out to me?
Xenomortis
For the most part, I think the Mesmer variant is inferior to the Elementalist; as good as EVAS is, I don't think the advantages of two copies are that large.
Rit AP builds are nearly hopeless. I can't think of a particularly good reason to run AP on a Monk either.
The Necro bar is something of a special case, since it's effectiveness really depends on outside factors; i.e. your team composition. If you're running with multiple physicals (ideally humans but whatever); it outstrips the others by a mile; in a caster ball (most hero setups), the Ele and Mesmer variants likely outdo it, even with minions.
Rit AP builds are nearly hopeless. I can't think of a particularly good reason to run AP on a Monk either.
The Necro bar is something of a special case, since it's effectiveness really depends on outside factors; i.e. your team composition. If you're running with multiple physicals (ideally humans but whatever); it outstrips the others by a mile; in a caster ball (most hero setups), the Ele and Mesmer variants likely outdo it, even with minions.
Kunder
Quote:
For the most part, I think the Mesmer variant is inferior to the Elementalist; as good as EVAS is, I don't think the advantages of two copies are that large.
Even if we assume that the sin doesn't live 15s, about 300 damage is done in the first 3s due to the combo, and the sin dying means it soaked up at ~600 damage that would have gone to something else. So if we take that it does 300 damage and prots 600 health at the same time with one cast, thats just as enormously impressive.
In actual play its probably even better, with AoE enemies often wasting their attacks that would otherwise do 1000s of damage cast on your hero ball, and the sin living more than 3s on average (other than the first one, more reason to bring a 2nd copy).
So yeah, I rate EVAS pretty high lol.
Quote:
Quote:
|
It's not about what it can do it's about what it does. Putrid Bile, Putrid Explosion and Deathly Swarm has huge AOE and when youre calling targets they die fast. Mark of pain on the other hand might do 500 damage, but it's adjacent AOE and it doesnt always work. Both builds are viable but Death will affect more enemies which help over time. AP casters need to optimize their damage/time spent per spell. MoP does that a hell of a lot better, in most casts you can get 1000 total damage from a spell you spent 2s casting, sometimes as much as 2000 damage. Keep in mind that EVAS+YMLAD+FH+AP does ~550 damage to a single target over the period of about 3s. Unless you can beat that its better to simply keep spamming those 4 skills. Deathly Swarm, for example, does a max of 270 damage, reduced further by armor (probably slightly above 200 on average), and it takes ~3s to do that. The only skill that comes close to being worthwhile is Putrid Explosion, but you can just take that on a hero and let them spam it, no reason to waste your AP time on something that doesn't need AP to abuse. Gabs88
Lol, if you can get damage in the 2000's from MoP then sure, go ahead and use it. xD I would too. But II think that's very far from beeing realistic
In either case both options are totally viable with both advantages and disadvantages. I just believe that in most situations a Death Chain will outperform Curse Chain. Actually not even importaint so lets just agree to disagree. Because both chains are good MoP chain: MoP, Rigor, Barbs, YMLAD, EVAS, AP, FH Death Chain: YMLAD, Putrid, EVAS, AP, FH, Putrid Explosion. - Add in Deathly Swarm if you gotta wait to finish target. Other then that your numbers for EVAS and other stuff generally seem somewhat overexaggerated but as long as I get your point it's no big deal.
Icy The Mage
Necro is definitely the best, with soul reaping and massive AoE damage to compliment the single-target spike.
You're definitely underrating Eles though, you don't need an attune to manage energy unless you're playing very poorly, Maelstrom is hilariously good, and wards against KD / Melee are amazing as well. Mesmers with CoF / Arcane Echo with their Fast Casting will always be a top contendor, but I still think Necros come out on top by far. Gabs88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icy The Mage
You're definitely underrating Eles though, you don't need an attune to manage energy unless you're playing very poorly, Maelstrom is hilariously good, and wards against KD / Melee are amazing as well.
Is this true for other builds then Water spec though? And do you use GoLE instead then?
Icy The Mage Jeydra
No experience with the other builds, but real pros for Elementalists should be high single-target and AoE damage with ability to focus on either if required, GlyphSac Meteor Shower, and GoLE being excellent energy management (especially with the Attunement).
Originally Posted by Kunder
Weaknesses are no cover hex / hex to break Hex Breaker (although you CAN run something like Enduring Toxin if it becomes critical), and you spend a lot of time casting GoLE (as opposed to passive energy management from Soul Reaping). I've never understood why Necros don't just run Desecrate and Defile Enchantments to mimic AP Air, minus having to use GoLE and the fact that Curses has plenty of hexes to go around. So something like MoP, Defile and Desecrate, and Weaken Armour or something. I imagine the big drawback with Mesmer AP bars is that they don't have that much single-target burst damage. Where Eles can use Lightning Orb + Chain Lightning, both of which deal fine single-target damage, Mesmers are stuck with stuff like Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet, not exactly appealing. The extra EBVAS takes some setting up to field, too. Quote: Keep in mind that EVAS+YMLAD+FH+AP does ~550 damage to a single target over the period of about 3s.
No, it does not. Don't believe it, try it. At this rate I'll say the Death Magic skill that does 500 damage (actually it does 1000 damage) in a single cast is Putrid Explosion, since I hit 10+ enemies per cast, something you should be able to do too if you are half decent at balling.
Exaggeration much? Gabs88
Single target burst damage on mesmer aint bad at all, and you get triple KD with it too. And you can spec in to either Illusion or Domination magic to fit the bill.
You also have to account for fast cast. Making the prep time significantly shorter
aspi
Necro, easily. I have tried it with many more and necro wins quite simple due to SR.
HigherMinion
Necro. Especially when running Markway. The advantages of spamming MoP for impossible AoE damage along with a strong single-target spike is stronger than any other team.
Drk Dervish
Sry for bring up an old thread. I just got my mes doing AP but I not running with the general AP --> YMLAD! --> EVAS --> FH because PvE title is pretty low for her.
For now I only cast AP on target with HP below 50% marker. Currently running AP|Auspicious incantation|echo|Evas|CoF|LeechSignet|UnaturealSig net|Arcane Mimicry(copy esurge). Its working pretty good can pump out a good number of Evas (even tho my rep isnt even at L5 yet). It about 4-5 on average vs non charr and 6-7 vs charr. Think the best was 9 so far. Just want to know how fast does YMLAD + FH help with AP? Is it worth it for me to put sometime in to get those two skill. Jeydra
YMLAD and FH are two of the most powerful PvE skills in the game. You can run without them but they seriously increase the power of AP builds. The power increase is so great that they've completely displaced any alternative PvE skills for me - the teambuilds I use can certainly use EBSoH for example, but I can't use it because YMLAD and FH are stapled onto my bar.
In the case of a Mesmer it's possible Cry of Pain is more powerful than FH, but likely not YMLAD, and in any case you should try out both variants. Go get both. They're too powerful to give up.
HigherMinion
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Did you notice mobs reset to a nice ball by themselves? Just a few procs with MoP and you deal more damage than any other AP bar.
Not really and I have tried Markway before, some foes do slip past the dervishes and into your casters. Melonni is no EFGJack.
 If they ball up the enemies nicely for you everytime, then you should make a video.
HigherMinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Not really and I have tried Markway before, some foes do slip past the dervishes and into your casters. Melonni is no EFGJack.
If they ball up the enemies nicely for you everytime, then you should make a video. It doesn't require perfect balls to out-perform the other AP bars.
Daesu Spiritz
Personally i prefer necro - the idea of having 2 evas via mesmer i feel is a bit wasted - echo+evas uses quite a bit of energy and if you`re using ap correctly things should die quite fast and you wont need to waste energy.Also consider AP recharges skills so as a necro i can easily pull off evas on 1 foe an before the evas goes i can get another up on a new target - ive had 3 evas running around which was quite funny.
Necros are also gd for the energy pool and unless you go a bit stupid and use high cost hexes - you shouldnt really run out of energy. Only thing i find and its nothing to do with the players class but the daft hero/hench ai - both like to stand behind you , especially if casters and often you`re in range for soulreaping ( plus the extra off AP ) and they are not and they seem to get low on energy because of that.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritz
|
Actually you don't use up a lot of energy if you know how to play an AP mesmer because Auspicious Incantation returns about 23e (with 6+1 inspiration) everytime you use it with arcane echo. Furthermore, AP recharges AI and returns 17e each kill so you can keep this up for a long time. Max EVAS stays around for up to 15s (30s for charrs), if current target dies, they continue to attack the next foe so their damage accumulates, not a waste at all.
|
Also consider AP recharges skills so as a necro i can easily pull off evas on 1 foe an before the evas goes i can get another up on a new target - ive had 3 evas running around which was quite funny.
Same thing with a mesmer except double of that.
Drk Dervish
Thx for the feedback YMLD it is a good skill to get for the bar going to farm some title pts hehe. I haven't try other professional other then mes and sin on AP. No doubt each profession got pro and cons as OP listed.
As mes and for echo EVAS yes it does eat energy but what i been doing is I'll echo Evas in beginning of the fight. But at the middle of it (~2 AP) round into it most of the foe is ~50-60% hp then I start Echoing AP and not EVAS. The energy coming back is just crazy. At that point its pretty much just back to back AP + EVAS. 3 EVAS.. I been getting 4-5 on average running around, and 6-7+ vs charr.
Daesu
The AP mesmer build is quite flexible and there are many ways which you can vary based on the situation.
Besides what Drk Dervish posted, you can also choose to echo CoP instead of EVAS. This means that, even though it is problematic if your AP is removed, you still have many options available for you to attack. You can also choose to echo AI itself if you really need the energy. With a high fast casting level, your mesmer spells like AI and CoP would recharge faster even without AP. My mesmer has 11+2 FC so my echoed AI and CoP can be used twice before arcane echo reverts back. Premium Unleaded
I would sooner swap out YMLAD than EVAS for CoP tbh on a mes AP bar. FH is the real star of the AP caller concept because the instant ~180 damage is what effectively guarantees the chain cycles over, barring any bad luck.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded
I would sooner swap out YMLAD than EVAS for CoP tbh on a mes AP bar. FH is the real star of the AP caller concept because the instant ~180 damage is what effectively guarantees the chain cycles over, barring any bad luck.
I know what you mean. However, the biggest drawback of FH is the 50% hp requirement so it still needs skills like CoP and EVAS to bring hp down to half.
HigherMinion Gabs88
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
It doesn't require perfect balls to out-perform the other AP bars.
Bullshit lol. Markway blows, it's like rolling a dice sometimes getting a 1 or 2 and other times getting a 5 or 6. Usually something in between.
Meanwhile, there's other AP caller builds out there who get only 4's, 5's and 6's never striking out never having trouble. Relyk
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
"You Never Fight Alone!"... Just reiterating for you.
That doesn't invalidate anything I just said.
HigherMinion Drk Dervish Premium Unleaded
He is literally assigning scores, as in 7 points/6 points/10 points/15 points.
|