WoC is driving me nuts.

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

So with the new quests being out I decided to try and finally catch up. My problem? Zen Daijun took me 30 more tries today (after the at least 50 times since they've released it) before I finally gave up and had to buy consets. I've bought 3 of them (one for each quest I couldn't do, the other one was where I had to go kill the last Am Fah guy) and right now I'm stuck at What Waits in Shadows. Even after buying one conset for that quest, after it ran it out I immediately had a party wipe. I know some of it has to do with me not knowing how to play a fire ele effectively anymore, I typically just farm feathers/granite with an Earth+Mending solo build, and have been doing so for the past year so basically everything I use to know about playing a fire ele is gone. I have checked out Wiki and have been keeping that up as I do the quests so I know where to go, blah blah blah, but I'm just seriously fed up with having to spend money to do quests basically. And I know I'm not getting my money back when I spend the money to get through the quests.

But, to be clear I know I'm part of the problem. What I don't understand is why these quests seem ridiculously hard, even the ones I didn't have to use consets for.
And as much as I'd like help or to have someone run the whole of WoC for me for free I know that's not going to happen, so I'd like to understand what I'm doing wrong so I can try to fix it before I look for a group/run.
I do know that most of the following skills were meant to be used by players, but I've had some success with them on the heroes.
My typical parties for any quest/mission includes the following:
Xandra 16 Communing, 15 Channeling, 6 Spawning Power:
-Bloodsong
-Pain
-Dulled Weapon
-Signet of Spirits
-Anguish
-Disenchantment
-Shadow Song
-Ressurection Chant (so no health has to be sacrificed.)

Merc Monk 16 Healing Prayers, 15 Divine Favor:
-Patient Spirit
-Dwayna's Kiss
-Watchful Healing
-Cure Hex
-Ressurection Chant
-Heal Party
-Healer's Boon
-Arcane Mimicry

Ogden 16 Healing, 15 Divine Favor, 3 Prot:
-Patient Spirit
-Dwayna's Kiss
-Watchful Healing
-Dismiss Condition
-Spotless Mind
-Healing Seed
-Heal Party
-Unyielding Aura

Merc Mesmer/Mo 16 Domination, 12 Inspiration, 9 Fast Casting, 3 Prot:
-Panic
-Mistrust
-Unnatural Signet
-Overload
-Mantra of Frost
-Convert Hexes
-Wastrel's Worry
-Ressurection Chant

Merc Rit 16 Channeling, 12 Inspiration, 3 Spawning
-Arcane Echo
-Destructive Was Glaive
-Spirit Rift
-Ancestor's Rage
-Channeled Strike
-Power Drain
-Flesh of my Flesh
-Mantra of Frost

Gwen 11 Illusion, 11 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting, 2 Curses
-Signet of Illusions
-Fragility
-Mark of Pain
-Barbed Signet
-Oppressive Gaze
-Arcane Conundrum
-Ether Feast
-Drain Enchantment

And then either

Acoloyte Sousuke 16 Fire, 15 Energy:
-Glyph of Elemental Power
-Searing Flames
-Meteor Shower
-Liquid Flame
-Fireball
-Searing Heat
-Aura of Restoration
-Firestorm

Olias 10 Blood, 10 Soul Reaping, 12 Death Magic, 4 Healing Prayers:
-Animate Shambling Horror
-Animate Vampiric Horror
-Animate Bone Fiend
-Animate Bone Horror
-Animate Bone Minions
-Unholy Feast
-Aura of the Lich
-Ressurection Chant


TL: DR. WoC is too difficult for me, I'm tired of spending my money to not get it back for doing the quests, what can I do/change to make it easier for me?

And if the mods feel this needs to be moved, then go ahead and do so that way next time I have a question like this I won't end up putting it in the wrong place.

chullster

chullster

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2008

Blighty, Land of bad weather and plucky Brits

R.I.P. DJ HMS [BZRK]

Sorry to be blunt but those hero builds are terrible.

You should try looking for hero builds on PvX wiki to get yourself started, it's no wonder you're struggling if you have a necro using nothing but summon skills for example or a fire ele with no fire attunment.

I'm assuming you're a new player, so using PvX builds is the best to get you started until you understand how to put your own team build together.

Some may go through each of your builds, but there too many changes to suggest and would take an age, so cut n paste some popular ones for now.

Johno77

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

England

Apocalyptica UK

N/Me

Hi, these are just a few fairly general points that might help.

think about losing the superior runes on certain chars (do you have two on the rit?) - the extra health can be a life saver - maybe limit sup runes to the damage dealers and use minor elsewhere

check insignias etc - many people (me included) rate going for extra armor over health + energy etc

Party looks too defensive to me - and not enough damage dealing - you can get by with, for example, just one of those monks and one restoration based ritualist no problem. so i would suggest:

take out a monk and try a curses necro instead (feast of corruption, hexes, whatever etc)

make xandra a restoration based defensive/healer - use stuff like shelter, union, recuperation +armor of unfeeling (for the spirits) + spirit light (healing), perhaps with a soul twisting elite


maybe sacrifice the minion master for an earth ele with more aoe skills - although you could get by with anything here really


more direct, armor ignoring party-wide damage on the mesmers - e.g. - shatter hex, mistrust, energy surge, cry of frustration + party wide interrupts

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

Chullster - No, I'm not a new player, I got those builds FROM PVX Wiki. Minus a little tweaking because some skills were PVE Player only.

Johno77 - Yes, I try to invest in superior runes because I'm not exactly afraid to spend money on Superior Vigor runes if I need to.

Johno77

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

England

Apocalyptica UK

N/Me

I meant it might be a good idea not to use ALL sup (e.g. sup healing) etc as the -75 health can be a killer

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

If I make them all /Me how would I go about the whole ressurection thing? Just add a signet to the classes who don't have a primary ressurection, or don't and hope that I don't die/have a party wipe?

Johno77

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

England

Apocalyptica UK

N/Me

death pact signet is a really good rez to have (rit) - stick a few in, no need to go /me on everything

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

Would Spirit's Gift be an okay spell if I were going to turn one of the Rits into a resto/damage to take one of the monks out?

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

Aaaand bookmarked. I will definitely be searching through that site.

Venganza

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2011

Fire

PM me in-game: Venganza Espirito

Be glad to help you with a few of the quests and help in any way I can my friend, free of course.

Damian Manson

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

D/

One thing like has been said get rid of the 2 Superior skill runes on almost all your hero set ups -150hp is just not funny unless its specialized builds, for your main attribute stick a major rune then minors else where and obviously if able then a sup vigor but I just had to shake my head when I noticed the 2 sups on each hero plus also refine the builds a little that MM one is terrible there is never any need for 5 minions skills.

To be honest some of the builds made me think they were posted as a joke when you said you aren't new to the game but good luck and I hope you get done what you need.

PS just notice Aura Of The Lich on the MM as well I take it you never read what it does? for you to load up a further 5 minion skills on top.

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

Okay, the reason why I did that with Olias is because I always wanted to make sure he'd have at least one kind of minion ready if one of the minion(s) died and other skills were recharging. Even with Aura of the Lich, they always seemed kind of a safe back up if that was still recharging and there were exploitable corpses around for him to use.
It seems that I'm the only one who really thought that a good idea, and can be wrong (I am only human afterall). I've been playing/learning this whole game practically by myself and anytime I try and seek out help I get screwed/trolled or told to "wiki" after hours of looking. And please don't think I'm trying to sound like I'm complaining or being "victimized" because I apparently had bad builds I just realize it.

Is it safe to assume that the Major runes would be the skills that are least on the bar? That's basically why I use all Superior is because most of the skill type is evenly distributed amongst the bar.

And what would/do you guys have Olias' build as? I'm genuinely interested since this has now been brought up twice.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecedarling View Post
Chullster - No, I'm not a new player, I got those builds FROM PVX Wiki. Minus a little tweaking because some skills were PVE Player only.
Quote: In October 2010, a copy (or fork) of this wiki was established at www.gwpvx.com. Since then, most of the community has moved over there and [email protected] is now receiving little to no attention from active editors.
As a consequence, the information presented on this site is getting more and more outdated. The ongoing changes in the game and in the metagame require continuous maintenance regarding both our skill descriptions and the design, description and categorisation of the builds presented here. Moreover, experienced editors are missing who could help new contributors with the formatting of their submissions in order to make them accessible and useful for interested readers.
In this situation, information found on [email protected] should be taken with caution. Are you sure about that?

Quote:
Merc Mesmer/Mo 16 Domination, 12 Inspiration, 9 Fast Casting, 3 Prot:
-Panic
-Mistrust
-Unnatural Signet
-Overload
-Mantra of Frost
-Convert Hexes
-Wastrel's Worry
-Ressurection Chant Mantra of Frost for what? Are you sure the mes will be taking cold damage? Why take convert unless you have a physical vs a hex heavy area? Cure Hex on the monk is sufficient

Quote:
Olias 10 Blood, 10 Soul Reaping, 12 Death Magic, 4 Healing Prayers:
-Animate Shambling Horror
-Animate Vampiric Horror
-Animate Bone Fiend
-Animate Bone Horror
-Animate Bone Minions
-Unholy Feast
-Aura of the Lich
-Ressurection Chant You DID NOT get this on pvx. Even though pvx is trashed to hell,it's not that bad. I can't put into words how terrible that bar is.

Zen Daijun took you 30 attempts before you bought cons? Zen Daijun which is a misson on the starter island. Dear me...

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

It was Cleansing Zen Daijun, part of the WoC content.

Okay, THIS was the site I got my info from.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

I haven't even heard of the other site until today. I didn't even realize the other one was hardly attended to because I mainly farmed. I go through the starter area just fine, but when they're level 26's and I have a six man group that apparently has a crappy build set up, I'm OBVIOUSLY going to have trouble. So stating that it's the "starter island" is completely irrelavent.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecedarling View Post
It was Cleansing Zen Daijun, part of the WoC content.

Okay, THIS was the site I got my info from.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

I haven't even heard of the other site until today. I would suggest making use of it.

Cecedarling

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Candie Zombie

E/Mo

Which I what I'm going to start doing. I've already stated it's bookmarked. That wasn't just for show.
What I don't get, is why there's people saying "it's such a terrible bar" and then not giving any examples as to what COULD be done. You're just telling me something that's already been said.

loopysnoopy

loopysnoopy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2010

England

The Ministery Of Cookies (MC)

W/Mo

A standard minion bar consists of a few things take this as an example as I'm not at home yet.

Elite: Aura of the Lich,Jagged Bones,Discord etc etc
Skill 1 Minion skill any will do use the 1 you like the most
Skill 2 this depends on a few things but lets go with it Death Nova
Skill 3 putrid bile
Skill 4 Signet of lost souls
Skill 5 masocism or another minion,foul feast,dark bond
Skill 6 opt
Skill 7 opt
Skill 8 opt

That then leaves you 3 optional skills most take monk prots most fill with curses or blood all depends on you

Axel Zinfandel

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecedarling
View Post
Which I what I'm going to start doing. I've already stated it's bookmarked. That wasn't just for show.
What I don't get, is why there's people saying "it's such a terrible bar" and then not giving any examples as to what COULD be done. You're just telling me something that's already been said. I'm sorry you have to put up with how people are acting here, I wish they'd be more helpful to.

GWPvX and, to a lesser extent, PvX.wikia (which is very outdated at this point.) is a very good place to start. Copy/Pasting builds from the PvE Hero section is lackluster, but effective way to grasp what heroes need to be effective, and how they work with certain skills. Do keep in mind that heroes need different kind of attention and can NOT run normal bars that we can. Even if the bar has no PvE skills, there are some things Heroes can not prioritize well enough to run effectively (energy management). In the same manor, Heroes do a lot of things better than humans can, which is why you'll see a lot of hero builds running interrupt and/or energy management skills like Waste Not, Want Not.

Looking at the old Sabway, Racway, Discordway, and even the new meta of Mesmer heroes gives you a good grasp on synergy and why it is so important to a really effective team build. Once you get even a halfway decent grasp of synergy, you can start tweaking your builds and even creating your own team builds that work well.

Side note as far as MMs too, It's generally good idea to think of minions simply as meat shields. The damage is a complete after thought. MMs are used in a lot of popular team builds because the whole team is caster-oriented, thus has no front line. Minions act as a sort of makeshift front line for body blocking and soaking up damage and hexes, or at least that's the idea of it. Even in non-caster oriented teams, minions are sometimes used simply because extra targets and bodies are good. This is why you don't see many people running anything other than Animate Bone Minions or Aura of the Lich

Shayne Hawke

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

Definitely take a look at your runes again. Few heroes benefit much from any Superior attribute runes at all, and there's probably not even a handful of decent builds for which you'd want to use two. Using a ton of +health upgrades and runes to make up for the cost doesn't really count as an excuse to just dump superior runes on your heroes. Sometimes, you just really want the health for those HM encounters.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

http://www.youtube.com/user/GWXeno

There are only a small handful of quests that cannot easily be done using the methods and builds shown in the videos on that channel. Sure, half the videos are for Slaver's Exile, but it's the same stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecedarling View Post
What I don't get, is why there's people saying "it's such a terrible bar" and then not giving any examples as to what COULD be done. You're just telling me something that's already been said. It's easy to explain why something is bad. It's easy to spot potential problems.
The next step is seeing how to address these problems, learning what can be cut, what's beneficial to your team, what's detrimental, what's pointless, etc. This is harder. You then need to further restrict your solutions to what heroes can actually run to an acceptable standard; which isn't a lot.

For instance;
Your heroes have very little health; they all have multiple +attribute runes; limit yourself to one superior or one major attribute rune per hero. You hardly ever want for more.

Your Monks are ineffective and running out of energy; a symptom of a poor build. What's wrong with their build? Multiple single target healing skills that clash (Patient Spirit never plays out well), expensive party heals they can't afford (Heal Party) and redundant healing boosters in Healer's Boon and Arcane Mimicry.

Other examples include the limited scope of your Minion Master, the near pointlessness of your Me/N hero and the lack of any form of Protection past your minions and spirits.

It's hard to really know what to do until you see other builds; watch the videos linked to above, even though they aren't all WoC stuff and the ones that are are all dealing with Afflicted, it is in HM and it is relevant.

Before you do that though, if you want to test your ability to identify good skills, look through the whole of
Protection Prayers. I consider exactly four of the skills in there as good skills that I might put on a hero (this is increased to 5 or 6 on a human, 7 at a push). Identify what you would have as the best skills out of that line that you would put on a hero.
Then watch the videos and then try to work out what my choice skills are (off the top of my head, only four prot skills feature in those videos, so it shouldn't be hard). Then try to work out why I choose those skills.


Another thing of note, and another reason why I opened with a link to a set of videos:
Your build really is not everything. The reasons for success and failure extend beyond the strength of your build; I hope that is clear from the videos.

CE Devilman

CE Devilman

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

hell

Do U Trust Anet

N/Mo

(me) necro
OAVDIcNGTCO3kui1M3gmOVVahA

3x necro (1 well of blood necro)
OAhjUwGTIPxspwVIjNMncSzLGA
OAhjUwGTIPxspwVIjNMncSzLGA
OAhjQwGTIPWbin0cYyFAbV1kLA
monk
OwYT043AZySb6z3JnoBUiAZImAA
ranger/rit
OggjcNgsIPQzjr17xxMDnFsLGA
mesmer
OQBDAcwzQhQmO9A5ZrAIgOB8UA
OQhCAswDNw01Dyz5Ae6O4iB

use well of blood and U can take a lot.

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

To answer your question: 6 minions on a single bar is pointless because that hero can't do anything except summon minions. One minion skill with a 5s recharge + AotL will keep up with basically all your minion summoning needs, and leave you with 6 skills to actually do something to help your party.