[Feb16 Update] Hero AI Improvements

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

Patch notes say that Hero AI was improved as of Feb 16, 2012, but unhelpfully provides no details whatsoever. As of such, this is an open thread to discuss any new related findings such as "Assassins heroes don't completely suck anymore" (I wish).

What do you notice different about your heroes now?

spun ducky

spun ducky

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

WTB: q8 bows

R/N

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=12

I think that is a good start as to what happened. It will take direct testing to see what exactly the changes are but it is a nice starting point to know what to check.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

Thank you very much for cross-referencing that post! I had no idea to look there. At least I have a rough idea of what skills to test now.

If you notice any significant changes at all, please feel free to list them here, so we can consolidate all the new information. It'd help me create stronger builds.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Awesome, gonna have to log in and check a few of em ^^ I imagine Ritual Lord could be a very good choice now

Aria Frost

Aria Frost

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Italy

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88 View Post
I imagine Ritual Lord could be a very good choice now I did a very quick test this morning and it seems that heroes use it properly.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

From first looks, updates to some of the already-key skills in hero builds:

- Mistrust: AI uses it on targets that don't have offensive spells (healer monks & restoration ritualists).
- Heroes will use Signet of Ghostly Might and/or Armor of Unfeeling soon after summoning any spirits, rather than waiting until they have finished raising them all.
- Glyph of Lesser Energy when activated only, the AI prioritizes skills of high cost over lower ones. Monks ignore 5 energy spells except when an ally is near-death.
- Heroes do not use Panic to its full potential: when it recharges, they do not cast it on a second foe, but wait for the hex to expire on the original target.
- Ancestors' Rage is used on characters who are within range of more than one foe and taking damage. Unlike most damaging skills which target allies, heroes will not use Ancestors' Rage while set to "Avoid Combat".
- Heroes will not reapply an enchantment or hex before it expires, even if doing so would be advantageous. Examples: 1) Necromancers will not recast Aura of the Lich to create more minions if the enchantment is still active. 2) Necromancers will not recast Masochism while the enchantment is still active, and miss the +2 Soul Reaping boost opportunity to boost the spell itself, lovering the sacrifice cost.

Skills that might potentially benefit a lot from this update, but aren't currently meta:

- Judge's Intervention is used differently than Divine Intervention: heroes will frequently spam it while out of combat (like Death Nova), but rarely use it during combat, either to save an ally's life or deal damage. In particular, they seem less likely to target minions, which might otherwise be the most effective recipients of the skill.
- Wastrel's Worry and Wastrel's Demise are spammed constantly over other skills and can drain energy rapidly.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
From first looks, updates to some of the already-key skills in hero builds:

- Mistrust: AI uses it on targets that don't have offensive spells (healer monks & restoration ritualists).
- Heroes will use Signet of Ghostly Might and/or Armor of Unfeeling soon after summoning any spirits, rather than waiting until they have finished raising them all.
- Glyph of Lesser Energy when activated only, the AI prioritizes skills of high cost over lower ones. Monks ignore 5 energy spells except when an ally is near-death.
- Heroes do not use Panic to its full potential: when it recharges, they do not cast it on a second foe, but wait for the hex to expire on the original target.
- Ancestors' Rage is used on characters who are within range of more than one foe and taking damage. Unlike most damaging skills which target allies, heroes will not use Ancestors' Rage while set to "Avoid Combat".
- Heroes will not reapply an enchantment or hex before it expires, even if doing so would be advantageous. Examples: 1) Necromancers will not recast Aura of the Lich to create more minions if the enchantment is still active. 2) Necromancers will not recast Masochism while the enchantment is still active, and miss the +2 Soul Reaping boost opportunity to boost the spell itself, lovering the sacrifice cost.

Skills that might potentially benefit a lot from this update, but aren't currently meta:

- Judge's Intervention is used differently than Divine Intervention: heroes will frequently spam it while out of combat (like Death Nova), but rarely use it during combat, either to save an ally's life or deal damage. In particular, they seem less likely to target minions, which might otherwise be the most effective recipients of the skill.
- Wastrel's Worry and Wastrel's Demise are spammed constantly over other skills and can drain energy rapidly.
Quote:
In addition to base-level AI changes, today's build made specific adjustments to the AI's use of every skill in the Unused Skills and Misused Skills sections of this page He did quite specifically state that it was unused and misused skills though. Heroes are still as dumb as ever using SoGM (tested it) at least.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Lol yeah I read it as "every skill in this page" and was wondering why Jurah never re-cast AotL and Masochism.

Bar Mistrust, nothing major then.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

Well, I've only run a little, but I have to say from preliminary testing - the AI is fantastic at Guilt/Mistrust now. It seems to prioritise huge groups for Panic (tested with random multi-pulls in Wajjun). The funny thing is Panic wasn't on that list of fixes, so maybe it's just coincidence.

Power Drain is now only used as an interrupt when your hero is low on Energy. Mesmers may require more interrupts to compensate. I assume Leech Sig is the same, but haven't tested it yet.

I'd have tested AP on a hero (AP AE meteor shower might have promise), but it's infested with mesmers with Expel Hexes, not exactly the best place to test AP.

According to the discussion page, this was supposed to be the melee AI patch - I tried sticking in a melee dwayna healer and didn't really notice much of a difference, except the golem seemed to run further before leashing than before. This is probably not a good thing, even if it balls up faster. On the other hand, EVAS AI seems a -LOT- better, but that could just be me.

Related dev comments:
This update did include fixes to melee hero AI, mainly for their positioning and tendency to stall out entirely in the middle of a fight. The skill speed issue for Assassin heroes won't be fixed yet, but it's something we're continuing to look at. - Joe Kimmes

Yes, this is the melee AI update. There's more that I'd like to put out later, such as Assassin chains and more skill-specific changes, but that'll be determined by how much time the Live Team has in coming weeks. - Joe Kimmes

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Out of the list of skills updates the major one I spotted was Leech Signet/Power Drain. If heroes are using that better now, not just for the interrupt before they have even spent energy, that's a big buff to both Mesmers and Mo/Mes.

Rest of the skills look pretty marginal though, even if the AI used them perfectly they wouldn't see much action. Ritual lord is close to runnable but still just not on par with SoS/ST.

Sagittario

Sagittario

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

Czech Republic

The Dragonfly Effect [Phi]

Rt/

Is there a full list of changes or do we have to make a reasearch on ourselves?

Aria Frost

Aria Frost

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Italy

E/

We have a list of skills for which the AI usage has been fixed here. Corresponding to the unused & misused skills reported on the official wiki article about Hero behavior and some comments by the Anet AI developer Joe Kimmes on the relative talk page.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

So, i've been doing HM WoC on other chars ...
- Took me an hour for favor returned because mai kept teleporting randomly and suicided
- Took me few hours for trading blows because it was purely about luck ( kurzick displomats are having the same kind of bug as gunther in FA)
- Other quests aren't especially hard, but it's only about agro bugs

I'm sorry but i can't consider there was any improvement in IA. I would even say IA is worse than before..

Styxgyan

Styxgyan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Spain, UTC/GMT+1/+2

I just test Melonni with a scythe build and she never use rending aura or winds of disenchantment at all.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Styxgyan View Post
I just test Melonni with a scythe build and she never use rending aura or winds of disenchantment at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
I'm more disappointed about the AI tearing down non-FEs. I was hoping I'd be able to start using Staggering Force + TMS on my derv heroes. Not a chance. Staggering Force, TMS, Rending Aura, Winds of disenchantment are all NOT in the list of the recent update, why would you all expect them to be changed?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_...#Recent_update

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Staggering Force, TMS, Rending Aura, Winds of disenchantment are all NOT in the list of the recent update, why would you all expect them to be changed?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_...#Recent_update I am disappointed that they didn't update the AI to use one of their most recent changes to skills. Is that not hard to ask? If you're going to claim to have "fixed" or "improved" melee AI, start with the basics that we know and can identify are broken; dagger chaining and teardowns.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
View Post
I am disappointed that they didn't update the AI to use one of their most recent changes to skills. Is that not hard to ask? If you're going to claim to have "fixed" or "improved" melee AI, start with the basics that we know and can identify are broken; dagger chaining and teardowns. They already said that they are looking into those other issues but the Feb 16 update was only for all the skills listed under the missed-use and unused-use sections.

HigherMinion

HigherMinion

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

East Anglia, UK

Order of [Thay]

N/

Then is it the wiki's fault for not putting those FEs into "mis-used" section? I don't think so. Did the dev just quickly glaze over the page? Just seems a bit lazy to me.

Styxgyan

Styxgyan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Spain, UTC/GMT+1/+2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
Staggering Force, TMS, Rending Aura, Winds of disenchantment are all NOT in the list of the recent update, why would you all expect them to be changed?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_...#Recent_update I don't expect it. Just noted (as you said, they aren't in the list).

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Frost
View Post
I did a very quick test this morning and it seems that heroes use it properly. Not with Sig of Creation. Ritual Lord doesnt offer anything in the e management department so skills such as Sig of Creation are needed yet the AI still cant use the skill properly. I witnessed my Rit hero using the signet after using Ritual Lord, thus putting Rit Lord on recharge.

Aria Frost

Aria Frost

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Italy

E/

I agree. After a closer look Ritual Lord does not seem much improved. Probably would work fine only if taking RL + all spirits and supporting its energy through a BiP hero... not very attractive.