Anti-Sulphur Mask for NF

So once you did the mission the lore can be wiped and forgot of without problems? It makes no sense. Let's just make Glint a monture so you can travel everywhere faster so, but just after we completed prophecies so it wouldn't have anything to do with the lore.../sarcasm
I don't wanna sound bitter but as Dewshine Wildclaw said, the lore is one of the major aspects in the game, treating it like pongo makes me shiver a bit.

What is this nonsense about lore? Have you people never heard of this wonderful thing called 'progress'?

Were you out shouting: "Men can't fly to the moon, no one has ever flown to the moon!" when they launched Apollo 11?

So someone, god or mad scientist, thinks of a spell or gadget to cross the Desolation some time after Kormir ascends. How does that ruin the lore?

Maybe an asura does it after they're forced to the surface. That's not destroying lore, that's expanding it.

Lore is fun if playing the game is fun. Worms are not fun.

Worms utterly kill the replayability of those areas for me. The joy, to me, of this game is developing that synergistic group of heroes.. something a worm group with canned skills will never have.

I vanquish zones in other campaigns for fun.. or z coins, whatever. There is no bribe in this game enough for me to enter a worm, or enter a worm zone now unless forced to in order to finish NF on a character. I have VQ NF on ONE character, and that will be the last one.

Worms never change. One elite.. and then.. no matter what you do, no matter how much you have learned, progressed, no matter your experience..you are stuck in a slow, stupid, unchangeable skill set and so are your heroes.. with worse AI.

We work hard, unlock skills, choose our appearances to the point of shelling our rl cash for looks and mercs.. millions in ingame cash for looks, and these stupid canned missions rip all of it away. I want to play my characters, period. (I will add that I have NEVER done Kilroy, Hearts of the North one time.. never again, have never done an Asuran pokemon match, and generally opt out of anything that removes my char and skills from me, including the Bonus Mission pac I stupidly paid for)

I despise worms so much that I will forever be locked out of Elona master Cartographer.. because I refuse to do the ersatz pacman worm challenge.

I have finished NF on a few of my 14 characters. The rest are stalled at the sulfurous waste.. because I have to FORCE myself to continue at that point.

No aspect of a game should be so distasteful that it becomes a burden to repeat.

Choice is a good thing. We are not forced by lore to slavishly repeat every step of every campaign, we get to skip tutorials, we can skip travel by mapping after one trip, we are spared finishing each campaign on each character to unlock HM because it is by account. We are spared taming each and every charmable pet ingame per char now.

I would heartily support being spared from worms after NF completion, by any mechanic. Gas mask, foam booties, divine providence, whatever.

Assuming your zero setup cost ignores what I've already done to make my team useable elsewhere, then yes. Big groups? Panic and splinter wep eat them for breakfast.

So it would seem. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the lore from tyria and cantha, but NF's bored me and is weak anyway. In any case I am not suggesting a change to the lore. My suggestion would have been an addition to the lore. i.e. no-one crossed until X happened. We have a new god, no reason she wouldn't have some tricks up her sleeves.

While your comment was indeed sarcasm, I have an answer. No, why is anyone talking about wiping out lore? My suggestion is addition. You can still have Palawa teaching crossing in a Wurm, so you have to do it that way, but why not later on allow this to be granted without a Wurm.

well, i never said to change the whole lore, just add a bit after it (and it wont hurt the lore a bit)
as people said, kormir has become a god, and we were the ones responsible for it, so she could help us with 1 tiny thing, which people may like alot
which is the possibility to walk over the desolation sands, or use the wurms

it also gives something new, as most groups we face now as wurms, barely are in our way when on walking parts

i also dont get why people say wurms are weak, i mean, i liked them back then cuz they were stronger than h/h, and in some cases you need em (remember that part where you have to blast an enemy on a certain spot to get through?)

and since there's no wurm spoor in the middle of the sand (or else you will die), you'd have to choose what to do before going

siege devourer is kinda fun as you dont really need it that much, not even to kill molotov rocktail, as i know people who did without siege
so you can choose

now why not choose after you completed elona

i've seen several stuff not being with the lore
like doing older campaign missions, and it may say "this has happened in the past" but its not true, as rits didnt exist in ascalon, and in the lore it was all solved
what about being able to do elona before proph storyline? ever seen a paragon fighting the lich? well yea, but its not possible lorewise, as they started to exist and being trained AFTER proph (lich's death) and factions (after shiro died)
and yet they can kill both

so lore-wise, GW isnt 100% accurate anyway, so what would be worse? paragon/derv/sin/rit killing those who already died a few years ago, or some change to the ones who completed elona, as a thanks from kormir maybe?

also note: dont change this in missions, cuz that would screw up not only the lore, but also the missions, i mean.... walking to young wurms, while you are supposed to be with a wurm

so only exploreable areas should be passable on foot after NF story completed
AND of course if someone is with you who hasnt completed it yet, you wont recieve the blessing (or anything) either, cuz that would be runnable, and people should be able to at least see the story going as it should be, BEFORE completing elona's storyline/lore

so its no changing, its adding
look at WiK and WoC, which also are added
i wouldnt like seeing this coming only after the next elona content they were talking about, as by then GW could be empty(-ish)

EDIT: oh, i was afk while typing for dinner and stuff, so didnt see above post, which also explains it

/unsigned for lore reasons.

There's NO way to travel through the sulfurous wastes, per lore. Keywords being "no way". It's not just that sulfurous sands are deadly and no one bothers to solve the problem for travellers: there's a reason for the Desolation to have such characteristics and it's strongly connected to the Abaddon lore, to the point that simple "progress" makes no sense. It's an otherworldly condition of the area living creatures should have no influence on.

Some sudden hi-tech invention from nowhere doesn't sound like a proper solution to me, nor does a divine intervention by Kormir - who by the way is the Goddess of Truth, so what has truth to do with yellow sands and toxic gasses anyway?!

What's next? Suggestions for an asuran time-machine to travel back to pre-searing?

Good news Lasai,you can still get master cartogapher without doing the pac-man level. You just need to embrace portal jumping to unlock normally inaccessable areas. Here's a link.
http://www.guildwiki.org/Portal_jump...rtal_Jump ers

Abbadon was the keeper of secrets. He WOULD know a way for mortals to traverse the sands, but he would NEVER tell any of his worshipers this info because that info would remove some control he has in the world. Kormir on the otherhand, may tell the truth of the sands so mortals can defeat it.



already done. See April fools 2011.

No! I had to VQ Joko's Domian, it was a pain, and you should suffer through it to! If your having trouble use a powerstone or two if you really suck.

Adding to lore as I said could work, I would just prefer to add something ala beyond as in the other campaigns to unlock it, imo that would make more sense than just making it for something most have already done... even if it is only on one character.
Since this really bothers some, I suppose the same way as most solo missions/quests truly bother me, maybe add it after only one small quest, early NF beyond or something as such.
Beyond is all about adding to the lore, connecting it with gw2 and such, this could perhaps be part of that.

Trying to compromise a bit here
I am really neither completely for or against.

You know what I find far more unlikely? Humans not trying to tame their neighbouring environments. It's what we do. We built submarines, we put men on the moon. People in Elona are supposed to be sheep then? Heck, even sheep are curious about the other side of the fence.

The real problem with the wurms, apart from the boring fixed skillbars, is that they remove an essential element of good game play: a broad spectrum of accomplishment levels.

You can't lose while in the wurms, but you can only win awkwardly.

There's never a sense of apprehension before you start a fight, and never a sense of accomplishment after you finish a fight. It's a bit of non-gameplay. And there's far too much of it. One such area would've been plenty.

Fair enough.

But then again... Why would Kormir tell about it now, when you don't need to traverse the wastes anymore?

So, if anything, this might be good for Beyond content - if the Elonian part ever happens, we're supposedly seeing more about the events leading to Palawa's domination over Elona, so a part might take place in the Desolation, in separate instances of these areas where you're given some help from Kormir in the form of a skill, or whatever.

As an endgame addition for NF, tough? No, thanks, see above.

Elonians tried. And died trying.

Well done on making a suggestion which is stretching my thought and applying it to a situation in which it would not work.

Haha, I've already VQed all the desolation, it is indeed a pain, but I have done it, I'm not whining because I can't manage it.

I really don't understand why some of you dislike the Junundu. I've never had problems in the Desolation and I have vanquished Nightfall on two different characters.

From my previous statement, ask yourself which is harder: Getting infusion and surviving the last four/five missions in Prophecies, or using a wurm to travel across less than three areas to reach Ruins of Morah.

This mask would benefit runners more than anyone else.

It just feels like this is another excuse to add something to the game because a bunch of people can't accept using something different than their normal skills.

... and yes, seriously.

Well, personally I had no problems with getting infusion or beating the last few missions back when there was only prophecies, so no heroes. If anything it is even easier to get infusion and beat those missions now. It's not a case of difficulty, it's a question of why not.

As has been said previously, people have suggested that this effect be disabled if anyone in the party does not meet the requirements. This would combat runners exploiting it.

It's not an issue with people being unable to accept not using their own builds, it's an issue with having the choice to do so, under certain conditions, as I have said. If you want to go ahead and keep using the wurms, fine, but there's no reason to badmouth people who don't.

So? That doesn't stop people. We try harder, smarter. In your world, we'd still be chucking stoneheaded spears at woolly mammoths.

In any case, lore should never be an excuse for bad gaming. GW lore has never been sacred anyway. Remember when we entered the Mists to battle our way to the Hall of Heroes from the Tomb of Primeval Kings, on the continent of Tyria? Lore didn't stop ANet creating an off-continent PvP nexus when they introduced more continents. They expanded the lore.

And personally, introducing an island chain where people expressly go to beat the living snot out of each other seems a hell of a lot sillier than having someone invent some kind of breathing apparatus.

So you actually went and did it? don't think so >_>.
get up to "Alem" get outa wurm n try clear the rest including monoliths? HM

The point is: If iv'e "completed" NF why would i want to walk sulfur with a mask?
is it faster- no
is it easier- no
vanquish? i thought i'd finished NF? plus its only 5 areas?
I'm bored of wurm gimmick?... bad reason, nuff said.
lack of skill choice? lets bring ELITES to pre searing then? oh once u have LDOA >_>

That AND it flys in the face of the Lore... if you dislike the lore so much.... why make it worse..?

The only reason i can see you want this is ...?
you don't like wurm skills? or you want to /emote in the sulfur?

If you had read the thread, you would know that i have already vqed the desolation areas. Hence me not going "QQ it's too hard". Please offer constructive comments rather than posting whatever you fancy without reading.

Sure I did, I need LB points, so why wouldn't I try it. Mesmers cut through his group like butter.

I would argue it is easier, perhaps not faster for running, as wurms has that 66% IMS, but for fighting I'd have to say I think h/h would be faster.

Pre-searing is a different area completely to the rest of GW. Any game-breaking changes there are pointless. While your comment was, I assume sarcasm, applying a warped version of my suggestion to Pre is not in any way a comparison of what I am saying.

I don't feel it would make the lore any worse. There's plenty of examples of bad lore around, this is no worse.

Correct, I do not like the Wurm skills, I dislike being given a set bar which heroes do not use well, and being forced into a low AL wurm.

I am not asking that the wurms be removed, by all means, keep them for use in quests/missions, and for people who want to use them. Just give an alternative for those who don't.

Turai Ossa's migration north through the Desolation into the Crystal Desert happened without the aid of wurms. Kormir, after becoming a god, tells the player how Ossa did it - or begins the cleanup of the mess caused by Abaddon's fall by clearing the Sulfurous Haze. Or records somewhere in Vabbi or Kourna tell you how Ossa planned to cross. Or Palawa Joko could grant you magical protection (the limits of his power was never defined) to allow you to cross as payment for freeing him. In any case, the lore isn't a problem. The problem is being forced to use the wurms Just Because, it seems, the devs wanted to show off skillbar replacement.

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The latter, of course, unless you demand that the former be done under 2005 conditions.

They were forced to and expanded the lore in a way that makes sense. Which...

... is not the case with a human-invented breathing apparatus to overcome an otherwordly condition in an area disliked by some.

Otherworldly things always turn out to be not so otherworldly. I guess things aren't seen that way by religious. I didn't include anything about lore in my first post and I can understand how lore can add to fun, but if it gets in the way of fun I don't even care if there's a mask or not. Just let players walk over it.

Soo, you don't like wurms. But you already did vanquishing and such.... then why? Just go somewhere else to get LB points or whatever makes you go there again. Just wondering here. Why let yourself get so bothered by something you have already reached the point where you can easily avoid it?
Unless you are intend to get more than one GWAMM character, you wont need to set food there ever again for other than completion of the campaign, which you would still need to do even with your suggestion... so why?

I keep to if added it should be in beyond and with a good lore explanation. Lore has everything to do with it, like it or not. If Anet does something akin to this in beyond with a good explanation I wont mind.

/signed

I'm a wurm hater as well and would welcome an NPC that could give you immunity to the sulphur. Call it "Joko's Blessing" or something and make it available after completion of NF. For those who like wurms, they can still hop into a spoor if they want

So by that logic I ought not to comment on the recent "remove charm animal for PvP" thread, because I don't use beastmaster rangers anymore, but have done at some point.

Blanace and Player Enjoyment should come before Lore. I have suggested a "lore reason" for my suggestion, yet I don't see anyone who is moaning that the lore won't be good doing so. Lets hear some form you.

If there's one thing I hated about NF it's the wurms. Before completing NF I'd say: okay, keep them in, just to keep the lore in the story. But as soon as you finished it and want to to other stuff like VQ's it's a pain IMO.

Sure, it's only 5 areas to VQ. But the areas where the wurms are necassary are the worst VQ's in NF ever in my opinion. There is a part in Joko's Domain where there are like 3 or even more groups of awakened walking very close to eachothers aggro. I am having quite some trouble with those IN the wurms while i did vq's. (And please keep your comments with saying those are easy) I've had trouble with them doing it with wurms I'm nearly sure that my heroes WITHOUT wurms eat these groups like pie. But those wurms made it annoying and boring. I mean tbh I don't give a shit about lore when I did VQ's. I mean VQ'ing doesn't have anything to do with lore right? Except that you are visiting areas which were part of lore.

/signed to add some blessing after completing NF.
OR:
/signed to change the wurms in some way. Just give them more interesting skills or make playing them more interesting.

I was asking a valid question I think... not judging you...
I don't enjoy farming, I don't farm.
I don't enjoy speed clears, I don't join them.
I don't enjoy the bonus mission pack, I never completed it (this despite being a completionist and interested in the lore from it).
I did not enjoy the punchout dungeon, never done it since I completed it once in nm and hm.
Sorry but it seems pretty simple to me.

Btw if you read my posts more carefully you will notice I am not really 100% against you, but somewhat neutral. I even suggested/agreed to it if added with something akin to beyond. So I don't understand why you would rage at me.

I have read your posts and previously I did note you said your opinion was neutral. However, posting why I would want this if I have already done it is an irrelevant question. 90% of suggestions are by people who have already done the thing they want changed.

I don't see why I ought to be made to exclude myself from the desolation areas just because I don't like Wurms, hence, I have already done them, but think a change is in order.

There are other people who are new or returning to the game and those who have several characters who haven't finished every area of the game. I think this is obvious.

Alright alright, I stand corrected. I was wondering and I got my answer

I still believe the best solution is to add it in with beyond, or even just 1 or 2 quests if a full on chapter of beyond is not going to happen there, that you can do after completing nightfall (hence not for the completion of nightfall itself)
That gives room to give us a reason that fits within lore, a bit of new content and hopefully make everyone happy.

/not signed

People who have a problem with the Junundu wurms should read the skill descriptions, play smarter, and use Junundu Feast more. Used correctly, a Junundu party is seriously powerful.

Not to mention it would totaly mess with the NF desolation lore.

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Mmhmm... could work. Perhaps the charr or asura could invent some tactical masks that enable mortals to survive extended periods of exposure to the sulphurous sands. Environmental suit disguises for a handfull of future Beyond content maybe? I'd like that.

But yes, for the NF campaign, exploration of and vanquishing of regular NF lets keep the wurms, just for the sake of that "oh snap!" moment when you get into a Junundu for the first time.

I think part of the reason for why people develop junundu hate is because they're not use playing dynamically since they spend most of the time c-space-facerolling with their PvXQQway hero set ups and start failing as soon as any real thought is required.

The problem isn't that Junundu are hard; they're a joke. It's that they're boring as all shit, extremely repetitive, the risk of failure is almost as close to zero as you can possibly get.

I also like the "read skill descriptions" argument when 99% of the time you're going with heroes who can't use Junundu even remotely close to their full potential.

Are you saying that being able to quadruple pull mobs in HM and then go afk to the restroom while your heroes die ten thousand times but eventually finish, despite being horrible, because they have a 100% health AoE hard res to win a war of attrition is "thought"? I'm sorry, playing Go Fish takes more thought than Junundu do, and that's part of the problem.

This whole "You don't like to play the game the same way as I do, you must be a fail player and I'm going to stick my head up my ass and insult everyone" attitude is getting really, really old. Some people don't like the Junundu because they feel they're poorly designed, they don't like being shoehorned into one skillbar that their heroes don't use well, the DP their cause is not particularly suited for vanquishing(like pretty much anything else in the game since it was a pretty obvious afterthought) and they don't like their heroes randomly popping out of Junundu and dying in an unressable spot. Instead of telling people to lrn2play, maybe you need do some of that thinking that the Junundu don't require "Hmm, maybe there's more than one reason someone wouldn't want to use this."

I just find it interesting that you find junundu brainless yet you still pick up DP while using them. Maybe you shouldn't afk after throwing heroes into 3-4 mobs. Just a suggestion

And no, I don't set out to insult anyone. Truth is Truth and sometimes it sucks, but its better to know and improve then ignore and fail. You can PM me if you want DRGN. Lets not digress from the thread too much.

But that's the only way to play with them that's borderline tolerable...

The fact that heroes can die over and over and still do fine was the part of the reason why I said they were brainless. Witty replies work better when you actually comprehend what you're replying to.

Again, the concern here isn't for me, it's my heroes. They know how to use Junundu Feast to take away my chance at Blinding Breath and that's basically the ONLY thing they do well with Junundu. What do you expect when you combine bad AI, lack of any reliable healing, and significantly reduced armor that puts a nice big dent in the extra health? Hell, don't you think that's WHY they made Junundu Wail they way they did? At least they had that foresight.

If you want to teach my heroes how to properly use their Junundu, then by all means do so. But if I'm going to perform 100 apm to make my heroes not be god awful, then I'm just going to go play an RTS.

Maybe I'm being overly abrasive, but it's hard to be civil with someone who comes in and shits all over a bunch of the player base and makes a bunch of baseless generalizations.

There's also this.

By all means if you're not good with junundu and can't bother to get good with junundu then go. Go play a RTS.

If you want to learn how to play better, or just call me an "elitist-know-it-all-%^$#" you're welcome to PM me (mind you I'd just ignore it if its regarding the latter).

Lets not digress too much from the thread here.

That is the issue we have here, and part of the base of my suggestion. Heroes suck at using these bars. Whether you have a good time using them or feel that you do well with them, the Hero AI for using Wurms sucks. If it did not I would not feel any need to make a suggestion to allow people to use their heroes.

Whether you are a fan of Wurms or not you cannot dismiss the miserable AI usage of them.

I think it's safe to say that there are several different reasons mentioned here why people want to get rid of the wurms.

Speaking for myself, they just bore me to tears. My desire to play GW drops to near zero as soon as I hear the rumble of their movement. It would be more tolerable if they hadn't overdone it. Six explorables, a storyline mission and a challenge mission, that's just an insane amount of content to tie to a gimmick. Imagine if they'd designed the entire Charr Homelands region of EotN as a dwarven boxing areas, boy, what fun that would be.

As for hero AI, there's no excuse. Observe your heroes behaviour and take countermeasures against the shortcomings in the hero AI. All you might need to do is use a flag to get them out of a nuke zone or flag them out of enemy range to let them heal up with Junundu Wail or ctrl-call a target every now and then. If you must, open up their skill bars and take even more control for select moments. Real players do these things in live parties so its only logical that the players use the hero control tools to emulate the same.

Anet has given us control of heroes and henchman for a reason therefore we can't whine and moan at Anet to change things in the AI where the issues are born in the carelessness of the players.

Thats the only reasonable argument against the wurms. They do feel that they drag a bit. The endless rumbling does come to mind.

That's...that's the point I've been trying to make this whole time, though just for additional reasons on top of what Gli has been saying.

I thought this forum used to have a "Beating head on wall" smiley. I think that must be another forum I'm thinking of

Hang on, supposedly we just had a Hero AI update. If they used all the skills on their bar properly, I woudldn't mind. However, I only ever see my heroes using maybe 4-5 of the skills the Wurms have.

I can't open every heroes panel and micro all their skills, that would make using them even worse. Also, there wouldn't be a need to flag them around AoE if their armor rating didn't suck. 3000hp but less armor than a normal player? These things are supposed to be tanks.