Morostov Trail 7H

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

As if Silent Surf wasn't enough, I'm now hacking away at Morostov trail with my trusty heroes on various characters. It seems a bit slower/harder, at least so far -- for ~302 kills I'm taking 35 to 45 minutes, picking up all loot, no cons.

I wonder if anybody has any general advice for playing with heroes, in particular:
- are there any standout routes for non-split play
- should I seek or avoid the popups
- any thoughts on cons, partiularly Essence of Celerity, that wouldn't be obvious from trying it a couple of times?

Any thoughts, suggestions, anectodes, or general navel gazing would be welcome.


As for builds... The best times I've got are on my sin (narrowly beating my warrior) with this build:


SoH is microed on me. The dual inepttude mesmers are really good in this physical heavy area; the BiP keeps them going and losing SoGM off the commune rit is a small price to pay for it. I keep thinking the Panic mesmer could be changed for more damage, but whenever I try it (e.g. EA fire ele) I go slower and I'm not sure why.

I've run a frontlining spirit spammer rit with bomber + fire eles + mesmers, which worked quite well but the Consume Soul spam really hurts.

On y Ele, I tried my usual AP/air dungeoneering team (2 hero backline), which is not as quick -- it seems to miss the frontliner balling. I did find AP + Meteor Swarm more effective than usual because there are a lot of ranged foes who bunch and stand still, and the Ebon sin stays alive long enough for the knockdowns to start.

My necro (AP/MoP) and mesmer (Wastrel's Panic or Ap-AE-EWAS) didn't do as well as the Ele.

Maya Cerestiez

Maya Cerestiez

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2009

Sweden

HYAHHHHH!

I would skip UA and BiP and bring more AoE damage like FoC on necro or something eleish. Do you really need 2 ineptitude?

aspi

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

^ I would not skip the UA in morostov, with no so many protection and many spike possibilities there it's not unlikely you will die as frontliner.
I would try to get MoP in there though and make myself a war secondary for SY.
There have been topics about this before and quite a lot faster. Myself I think I drop SOS and took Clamour of souls because you move so fast from mob to mob sos was not so handy for me.
Panic is for the earth warders I think? Too bad they are usualy behind their melee line enough for panic to be of any good.

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya Cerestiez View Post
I would skip UA and BiP and bring more AoE damage like FoC on necro or something eleish. Do you really need 2 ineptitude?
I die enough to need UA. And it's not costing much on the bomber, it's not like any of the usual bomber elites are that special. And FoC would need points in curses, UA costs no attribute points.

I don't need 2 ineptitude, but it cut 5 minutes off the time when I swapped it in for an ele -- it's there as damage, the shutdown is bonus. But I do wonder if I could refactor the mesmers somehow, maybe I could get more useful secondary stuff on them. Also if they didn't have Clumsiness they might get by without the BiP, but Clumsiness is good damage so I want something decent in return.

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Quote: Originally Posted by aspi View Post ^ I would not skip the UA in morostov, with no so many protection and many spike possibilities there it's not unlikely you will die as frontliner. Quite right.

Quote: I would try to get MoP in there though and make myself a war secondary for SY. I've tried an AP/MoP hero (which works at keeping MoP going), but I had a couple of problems. One is gettign the hero to cast MoP at the right time (needs micro), the other is that the monster AI is treating MoP as scattering AoE these days, unlike the rest of the build.

Quote:
Panic is for the earth warders I think? Too bad they are usualy behind their melee line enough for panic to be of any good. That was the biggest reason, yes, though as you say it has problems. It can also be handy if you aggro lots of dragon moss + blood drinker at once. I find that if I switch it to ESurge I have to be a little more careful, which leaves the time back where I started.

Quote:
Myself I think I drop SOS and took Clamour of souls because you move so fast from mob to mob sos was not so handy for me. Well, I think that's the really question. "Do sprits and minions slow you down" is a well-discussed subject. I think I might save 3-5 minutes of waiting by not having spirts and minions, but they do a lot of damage and they soak up enough to let me drop a healer.

Quote:
There have been topics about this before and quite a lot faster. I did search. I found people going a lot faster in player teams with splits, or using heroes with consets, or not looting, or avoiding the popups. But I have a feeling I might have missed something. In particular, I wonder if there's something one needs to know about routes or quests.

CrazyFarmer

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2012

Brazil

Mo/

I do an average 40min vanquish, running the standard Discordway Team Build.

aspi

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:


bu is quite easy to come by but then again you might want to try out your own build with the use of a BU instead of someone elses.
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.

Lyv

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2011

Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...

About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots). Wardens tend to ball up nicely. I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one.
Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish ; I would take 2 E-surgers (or 1 RoJ/1 E-surge) instead of Panic+Inept.

I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course).

Drk Dervish

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2012

D/W

I would drop UA in a sec. In HM with the exception of elite area and couple end game area there is no need for UA because you "should not" really die with the right balance team. You do need to add couple more of heal skill, probably why your dying so much. I would move the Bip down to Icy Veins and drop Icy Vein. Replace that UA with discord/mm. Since your using communing sprite is a waste not to use SoGM. Other then that should be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspi View Post

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspi View Post
Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:
http://s3.postimage.org/m9duus722/bns.png
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.
Thanks. 23 minutes is quite the eyebrow raiser.

That is very much a build for a BU, it'with no fallback chain. You can see it's an old build, the ER wouldn't run Shield Guardian anymore. It's got slightly more heal/prot than me, but no minions, so I'd call it more aggressive over all.

What I'd really like to know is how he tackled the mobs with multiple earth eles using that -- I pull onto minions and let them take the heat while my sin goes after the eles.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyv View Post Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...
Roughly this, with some wiggle for spawns and how the locals fight the afflicted:


Quote:
About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots).
Never had much luck with RoJ because of scattering, but I'll give it another try.

Quote:
I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one. 2x splinter is glorious, especially combined with Death Blossom. And it's 2x Ancestor's Rage, and making a channeling/communing rit means he can have Spirit Siphon for quasi-bottomless energy.

Quote:
Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish I agree. It's something I want to change, but ATM the earth eles are my weakest point and it helps with them.

Quote:
I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course). How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map?

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I find RoJ to be godly on the bottom-right zone of the map. Pull 2-3 groups of Wardens, block the warriors and kill them before they scatter (they do after 3 pulses iirc).

However, I will try with 2x splinter, seems cool

Quote: Yeah, I worked that out today. It's much better that way.

I'm getting better at it, I shaved 3-4 mins off with build changes. I also shaved 3-4 mins by removing the afflicted and avoiding popups, which is about 10% less time for about 10% less kills. I'd actually rather have the extra kills, given that I'd probably do the same number of runs in an evening either way. ATM I can just about do ~275 kills in 30 mins with a BU, next goal is the full 300 in 30 mins.

I'd love to know what sort of average times people can get today, with current mechanics, looting, with/without cons.

Quote:
How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map? Around 270-280 kills.
I follow the same route as you do, only difference is that I pull the Elem boss at the end to avoid annoying popups, and then go north and west of the lake to finish.
I can't see that making a huge difference, but well...

Standard spawns, no WoC afflicted.

aspi

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

I don't doubt that guy, if seen faster times with just heros. Take a look at this time:

And thats with an AP build

Here is the topic where that's from:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/7...0494701p2.html

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Important to remember that we've had a 50% HP increase on HM mobs in the meantime though. Both the competing times we've seen this far are pre-elementalist patch.

That said, the 35-45 minutes in OP is not a good time. How bad is it? We'll I've seen builds with both MM, ST, 3x Discord (with standard builds), Panic, Shared Burden and a craptastic AP bar with low levels on PVE skills do 40 minutes postpatch. And the one playing them was very far from good too.

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenough View Post
As far as OP talking about earth ele's, the 2 places where they spawn just flag your hero's back and then run in and grab argo, then unflag them so all the pressure will be on you. Don't waste time pulling a group at a time, just argo them all, pull them back a little and watch them explode.
It's a very predictable map once you know it, with not much patrolling going on. I've found a couple of places where you can take a shorter route if you time things right, e.g. at the northwest you can get a couple of dragon moss groups without doing a loop.

Time is not the whole story when you're doing it for faction. If you take the flashback quest to put afflicted on the map you get a whole extra boss, and the afflicted fight the locals which saves you some time killing them, so it's a lot of extra faction for the time. And couple of the warden popups are a very minor diversion for 4-6 easy kills, they might be worth it on a faction/hour basis.

OTOH I think it might be worth pulling Arbor Earthcall and killing him without spawning his Wardens of the Spirit, they're a lot of work for the gain. I also think I'll try a route to avoid as many stone whotsits as possible, they're more effort than they're worth.

Quote:
The build at the top was actually a post i made a long time ago and i was getting 23 minute runs. I improved it after posting that and remember getting 21's and 22's [..] I'm mildly surprised that you can run that route on an empty map in 21 minutes. Actually killing the monsters as well is... pretty impressive.


My one man guild now has half a million faction. How much do you need for an outpost?

greenough

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

A/E

My first run today, haven't done this in about a year so it was pretty sketchy, i picked up loot and opened chests and managed to get a 24. Just grabbed the hero's i've been using for bogroots, didn't change one skill. so 21-22 is still easly possible after hp update.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

Haven't done this in like a year either(since I maxed my Kurzick title ) but this kinda piqued my interest. I didn't feel like using a BU so I only registered at a hair over 28. Can post the whole build if you want but I'm sure it'll change and it's hardly optimal. I also blotted out my total playtime so people don't find an excuse for derailment @_@



Might give it another try later with a BU and some tweaks. Shit on Double Dragon if you want, but it works wonders here on a melee character.

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

Greenhough/DRGN, thanks for confirming that I'm not barking up the wrong tree. If I may ask a couple of questions...

Do you use mercs, and if so do you think they make a big difference?

In the southeast corner loop, do you go round clockwise or anticlockwise?

I've seen some promise in ball and spike with an ER bonder keeping the sin alive to do the balling. Do you think this is a good avenue to explore?

Any thoughts on caster vs melee for this? I've been using my sin because he's a new character I'm getting to know, but I do have Ele + Rit + Nec + Monk + Mesmer + Warrior with decent skills and heroes and so on.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Just tried it. My unfamiliarity with the area showed, and I ran two full circles around the map before finding the last few mobs. Not knowing where the popups are led to one Stone Rain using Shockwave right on top of my party, killing the two hardressers.

Considering the number of avoidable popups, I don't think a straight /age is a good comparison. With strong play, mobskipping and avoiding popups, a time of maybe ~18 minutes might be doable without requiring mercenaries.

Considering the amount of physical damage in the area Illusion Mesmers might be usable but I've got a strong aversion to ever using them (go figure).
Not sure you noticed him saying this:

Quote:
Considering the amount of physical damage in the area Illusion Mesmers might be usable but I've got a strong aversion to ever using them (go figure). IMO the question is do you bring one or two.

EFGJack

EFGJack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2010

Finland

Pros At Inactivity [bleh]

W/

I gave 7H MT a go as I still need some kurzick points. I got 24 mins on my first go and I reckon you can get 20~ish with some tuning and using a proper route to avoid unnecessary spawns.

img651.imageshack.us/img651/8598/gw208e.jpg

Painted area is covering my friendslist and for some reason it's on top of my effects monitor, but for what my word is worth I didn't use any cons etc.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

It was 269 monsters(1345 gold/5 gold per monster )

Mouse at Large

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

Just for a baseline, I did a VQ including all chests, some loot pickups and all the popups (including the extras in Sunreach's loop) apart from Arbor's Wardens in 39 minutes.

No speedboosts on any heroes and a far from optimal route. I reckon cutting 15 mins off that is pretty good going

EFGJack

EFGJack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2010

Finland

Pros At Inactivity [bleh]

W/

21 mins after giving the run/build some thoughts. I bet 18 mins is doable with some specific setups and strategies using 7H.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4741/gw211.jpg

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Right folks. Less commentary on each other and more on the topic at hand.

I'm quite happy to give trouble instigators time off as are paranon and Xenomortis.

Consider yourselves warned!

Morte66

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

UK

LF slightly hardcore UK/euro guild

I'm coming in about 30 minutes, looting everything, with roughly 295 kills.

I suck at this. I don't know why, on Silent Surf I was about 3 minutes behind Jeydras' speed runs using a reliable casual team. There's something about this area that just throws me.

I think the magic word might be "balling".

Oh well, better get back to it.

_Deals_

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2010

Fort Worth, Tx

[DMNS][HEAT]

Mo/A

I do this in 30 minutes with Myself and 6heros and 1 person who tags along or afk's. So yeah 21-28 minutes with a full party of heros is quite simple enough. I am also taking the exact same route and such but as far as Spiking i'm running A/P Ele, and a mix of Supportway/Ritway heros and bear in mind i'm only using 6H's so my options aren't the same as all of yours.

Gamerpro21

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2008

I'm trying to vanquish this area, yet keep dieing when battling the group with Sunreach Warmaker. Furthermore, I'm running a standard AP Caller bar.

Please comment on these builds and offer improvements, as I will greatly appreciate it.

Talkhora:
Owkj4wQpZO+M8K13lcR2xW/qPA
Dunkoro:
Owkj4wQpZO+M8K13lcR2xW/qPA
Xandra:
OAmjIykpZOYMv51scWNZm74aMA
Ogden:
Owkj0oQsJSbENgTf3N7YMEdRXEA
Master Of Whispers:
OAhjUwGc4QyBVBfBoBKgpBVVJXA
Olias:
OAljUsGqpS1MKgpBVV+Y1Y7YbhA
Gwen:
OQhkAwC7gFKyJkDTvGMEZARcxA

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

You said it yourself, youre running an AP bar so run a build designed to be played with one.

Your mesmer, RoJ heroes, UA healer and Icy veins necro is all designed to be used with a physical character. Ball up foes and spike hard.

AP callers are best when played with direct damage heroes with short recharges.

3x discord, panic, esurge, SoS, SoGM hero would perform way better then what you run today. And panic and esurge should be designed for direct damage packets using skills like Unnatural Signet, Cry of Frustration, Mistrust, Shatter Hex and spiritual pain. Not empathy and Shatter hex.

Anyhow, there are more advanced setups then the one above again and better ones too but I don't know what heroes you have available to I'm just giving you a nudge in the right direction.

Provided you don't have mercenary heroes available the best approach IMO is:
Discord/resto
AoTL/prot
Panic
Esurge
Esurge
SoS
SOGM

Mouse at Large

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

The Sunreach group can be tough, especially as heroes have a propensity to overextend. My advice would be to kill the mobs on the other side of the Sunreach loop, then come back down that side, precast siprits and pull the Sunreach mobs towards your position. With careful pulling, you won't get the whole bunch falling onto in an you enclosed space as they tend to do if you charge in.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Your build's fine. The severe overkill on "Fall Back!" and defense works against you, but then again, it's a vanquish and you aren't shooting for very fast times, so not much of a problem.

Just take out a Longbow and pull the mob. Don't overaggro, and you should be fine.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Your build's fine. The severe overkill on "Fall Back!" and defense works against you, but then again, it's a vanquish and you aren't shooting for very fast times, so not much of a problem.

Just take out a Longbow and pull the mob. Don't overaggro, and you should be fine.
Furthermore, I'm running a standard AP Caller bar. You really saying his build is fine in combination with an A/P caller?