I would try to get MoP in there though and make myself a war secondary for SY.
I've tried an AP/MoP hero (which works at keeping MoP going), but I had a couple of problems. One is gettign the hero to cast MoP at the right time (needs micro), the other is that the monster AI is treating MoP as scattering AoE these days, unlike the rest of the build.
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Panic is for the earth warders I think? Too bad they are usualy behind their melee line enough for panic to be of any good.
That was the biggest reason, yes, though as you say it has problems. It can also be handy if you aggro lots of dragon moss + blood drinker at once. I find that if I switch it to ESurge I have to be a little more careful, which leaves the time back where I started.
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Myself I think I drop SOS and took Clamour of souls because you move so fast from mob to mob sos was not so handy for me.
Well, I think that's the really question. "Do sprits and minions slow you down" is a well-discussed subject. I think I might save 3-5 minutes of waiting by not having spirts and minions, but they do a lot of damage and they soak up enough to let me drop a healer.
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There have been topics about this before and quite a lot faster.
I did search. I found people going a lot faster in player teams with splits, or using heroes with consets, or not looting, or avoiding the popups. But I have a feeling I might have missed something. In particular, I wonder if there's something one needs to know about routes or quests.
21 Mar 2012 at 18:06 - 5
I do an average 40min vanquish, running the standard Discordway Team Build.
21 Mar 2012 at 18:50 - 6
Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:
bu is quite easy to come by but then again you might want to try out your own build with the use of a BU instead of someone elses.
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.
21 Mar 2012 at 18:53 - 7
Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...
About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots). Wardens tend to ball up nicely. I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one.
Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish ; I would take 2 E-surgers (or 1 RoJ/1 E-surge) instead of Panic+Inept.
I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course).
21 Mar 2012 at 19:29 - 8
I would drop UA in a sec. In HM with the exception of elite area and couple end game area there is no need for UA because you "should not" really die with the right balance team. You do need to add couple more of heal skill, probably why your dying so much. I would move the Bip down to Icy Veins and drop Icy Vein. Replace that UA with discord/mm. Since your using communing sprite is a waste not to use SoGM. Other then that should be good.
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Originally Posted by aspi
21 Mar 2012 at 21:31 - 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspi
Indeed there is talk of a use of BU to speed things up in an older topic, that guy used this build for his team:
http://s3.postimage.org/m9duus722/bns.png
This guywas using a standard WOTA sin so pretty similar to yours. Only he got runs of 23 minutes almost everytime.
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Thanks. 23 minutes is quite the eyebrow raiser.
That is very much a build for a BU, it'with no fallback chain. You can see it's an old build, the ER wouldn't run Shield Guardian anymore. It's got slightly more heal/prot than me, but no minions, so I'd call it more aggressive over all.
What I'd really like to know is how he tackled the mobs with multiple earth eles using that -- I pull onto minions and let them take the heat while my sin goes after the eles.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyv
Which route do you usually take ?
I start from Unwaking -> Vasburg by the northern path, then the southern part, finishing in the lake. Can't remember if it's the same as the route used for MTSC...
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Roughly this, with some wiggle for spawns and how the locals fight the afflicted:
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About the build : if you try to ball mobs, you could swap the BiP hero for a RoJ monk (16-specced SoH, blood ritual if you need it, some prots).
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Never had much luck with RoJ because of scattering, but I'll give it another try.
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I never tried playing with 2 splinter though, so I can't say if it will be profitable to ditch one.
2x splinter is glorious, especially combined with Death Blossom. And it's 2x Ancestor's Rage, and making a channeling/communing rit means he can have Spirit Siphon for quasi-bottomless energy.
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Panic seems a bit overkill for general vanquish
I agree. It's something I want to change, but ATM the earth eles are my weakest point and it helps with them.
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I usually get 30/35 min times with such a setup (picking loot, no cons, playing R/A or R/D), although I found it to be a few minutes faster when playing caster (different team, of course).
How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map?
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I find RoJ to be godly on the bottom-right zone of the map. Pull 2-3 groups of Wardens, block the warriors and kill them before they scatter (they do after 3 pulses iirc).
However, I will try with 2x splinter, seems cool 
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How many kills is that? Do you spawn the popups? Do you have the afflicted on the map?
Around 270-280 kills.
I follow the same route as you do, only difference is that I pull the Elem boss at the end to avoid annoying popups, and then go north and west of the lake to finish.
I can't see that making a huge difference, but well...
Standard spawns, no WoC afflicted.
22 Mar 2012 at 09:50 - 12
I don't doubt that guy, if seen faster times with just heros. Take a look at this time:
And thats with an AP build
Here is the topic where that's from:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/7...0494701p2.html
22 Mar 2012 at 12:28 - 13
Important to remember that we've had a 50% HP increase on HM mobs in the meantime though. Both the competing times we've seen this far are pre-elementalist patch.
That said, the 35-45 minutes in OP is not a good time. How bad is it? We'll I've seen builds with both MM, ST, 3x Discord (with standard builds), Panic, Shared Burden and a craptastic AP bar with low levels on PVE skills do 40 minutes postpatch. And the one playing them was very far from good too.
22 Mar 2012 at 12:56 - 15
I haven't used your build and am not very familiar with MT yet. But some things come to mind, judging from my general playing experience.
If you aren't going /W for SY, then I would go /P take incoming and fall back myself. That opens up a slot on the mesmers for e-management, which enables you to drop the bip.
I would take a roj instead of bip, which means you can slot some healing onto your SoS.
Will be testing out MT myself based on your team though, thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspi
Take a look at this time
If using merc heroes, why not go all the way and use cons as well... that should speed things up also.
22 Mar 2012 at 15:39 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspi
22 Mar 2012 at 17:10 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenough
As far as OP talking about earth ele's, the 2 places where they spawn just flag your hero's back and then run in and grab argo, then unflag them so all the pressure will be on you. Don't waste time pulling a group at a time, just argo them all, pull them back a little and watch them explode.
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Yeah, I worked that out today. It's much better that way.
I'm getting better at it, I shaved 3-4 mins off with build changes. I also shaved 3-4 mins by removing the afflicted and avoiding popups, which is about 10% less time for about 10% less kills. I'd actually rather have the extra kills, given that I'd probably do the same number of runs in an evening either way. ATM I can just about do ~275 kills in 30 mins with a BU, next goal is the full 300 in 30 mins.
I'd love to know what sort of average times people can get today, with current mechanics, looting, with/without cons.
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The build at the top was actually a post i made a long time ago and i was getting 23 minute runs. I improved it after posting that and remember getting 21's and 22's [..]
I'm mildly surprised that you can run that route on an empty map in 21 minutes. Actually killing the monsters as well is... pretty impressive.
My one man guild now has half a million faction. How much do you need for an outpost?
22 Mar 2012 at 18:13 - 18
My first run today, haven't done this in about a year so it was pretty sketchy, i picked up loot and opened chests and managed to get a 24. Just grabbed the hero's i've been using for bogroots, didn't change one skill. so 21-22 is still easly possible after hp update.
22 Mar 2012 at 22:32 - 19
Haven't done this in like a year either(since I maxed my Kurzick title  ) but this kinda piqued my interest. I didn't feel like using a BU so I only registered at a hair over 28. Can post the whole build if you want but I'm sure it'll change and it's hardly optimal. I also blotted out my total playtime so people don't find an excuse for derailment @_@
Might give it another try later with a BU and some tweaks. Shit on Double Dragon if you want, but it works wonders here on a melee character.
23 Mar 2012 at 09:09 - 20
Greenhough/DRGN, thanks for confirming that I'm not barking up the wrong tree. If I may ask a couple of questions...
Do you use mercs, and if so do you think they make a big difference?
In the southeast corner loop, do you go round clockwise or anticlockwise?
I've seen some promise in ball and spike with an ER bonder keeping the sin alive to do the balling. Do you think this is a good avenue to explore?
Any thoughts on caster vs melee for this? I've been using my sin because he's a new character I'm getting to know, but I do have Ele + Rit + Nec + Monk + Mesmer + Warrior with decent skills and heroes and so on.
23 Mar 2012 at 11:51 - 21
Just tried it. My unfamiliarity with the area showed, and I ran two full circles around the map before finding the last few mobs. Not knowing where the popups are led to one Stone Rain using Shockwave right on top of my party, killing the two hardressers.
Considering the number of avoidable popups, I don't think a straight /age is a good comparison. With strong play, mobskipping and avoiding popups, a time of maybe ~18 minutes might be doable without requiring mercenaries.
Considering the amount of physical damage in the area Illusion Mesmers might be usable but I've got a strong aversion to ever using them (go figure).
23 Mar 2012 at 12:39 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Considering the number of avoidable popups, I don't think a straight /age is a good comparison.
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It's a very predictable map once you know it, with not much patrolling going on. I've found a couple of places where you can take a shorter route if you time things right, e.g. at the northwest you can get a couple of dragon moss groups without doing a loop.
Time is not the whole story when you're doing it for faction. If you take the flashback quest to put afflicted on the map you get a whole extra boss, and the afflicted fight the locals which saves you some time killing them, so it's a lot of extra faction for the time. And couple of the warden popups are a very minor diversion for 4-6 easy kills, they might be worth it on a faction/hour basis.
OTOH I think it might be worth pulling Arbor Earthcall and killing him without spawning his Wardens of the Spirit, they're a lot of work for the gain. I also think I'll try a route to avoid as many stone whotsits as possible, they're more effort than they're worth.
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Considering the amount of physical damage in the area Illusion Mesmers might be usable but I've got a strong aversion to ever using them (go figure).
IMO the question is do you bring one or two.
23 Mar 2012 at 19:22 - 26
I gave 7H MT a go as I still need some kurzick points. I got 24 mins on my first go and I reckon you can get 20~ish with some tuning and using a proper route to avoid unnecessary spawns.
img651.imageshack.us/img651/8598/gw208e.jpg
Painted area is covering my friendslist and for some reason it's on top of my effects monitor, but for what my word is worth I didn't use any cons etc.
23 Mar 2012 at 22:39 - 29
It was 269 monsters(1345 gold/5 gold per monster )
23 Mar 2012 at 23:45 - 30
Just for a baseline, I did a VQ including all chests, some loot pickups and all the popups (including the extras in Sunreach's loop) apart from Arbor's Wardens in 39 minutes.
No speedboosts on any heroes and a far from optimal route. I reckon cutting 15 mins off that is pretty good going
24 Mar 2012 at 11:14 - 31
21 mins after giving the run/build some thoughts. I bet 18 mins is doable with some specific setups and strategies using 7H.
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4741/gw211.jpg
24 Mar 2012 at 17:11 - 32
Right folks. Less commentary on each other and more on the topic at hand.
I'm quite happy to give trouble instigators time off as are paranon and Xenomortis.
Consider yourselves warned!
27 Mar 2012 at 03:27 - 33
My best time is 21 min with heroes and no con.
Average milage is 22~24 min.
27 Mar 2012 at 20:05 - 34
I'm coming in about 30 minutes, looting everything, with roughly 295 kills.
I suck at this. I don't know why, on Silent Surf I was about 3 minutes behind Jeydras' speed runs using a reliable casual team. There's something about this area that just throws me.
I think the magic word might be "balling".
Oh well, better get back to it.
04 Apr 2012 at 21:13 - 35
I do this in 30 minutes with Myself and 6heros and 1 person who tags along or afk's. So yeah 21-28 minutes with a full party of heros is quite simple enough. I am also taking the exact same route and such but as far as Spiking i'm running A/P Ele, and a mix of Supportway/Ritway heros and bear in mind i'm only using 6H's so my options aren't the same as all of yours.
05 Apr 2012 at 00:32 - 36
I'm trying to vanquish this area, yet keep dieing when battling the group with Sunreach Warmaker. Furthermore, I'm running a standard AP Caller bar.
Please comment on these builds and offer improvements, as I will greatly appreciate it.
Talkhora:
Owkj4wQpZO+M8K13lcR2xW/qPA
Dunkoro:
Owkj4wQpZO+M8K13lcR2xW/qPA
Xandra:
OAmjIykpZOYMv51scWNZm74aMA
Ogden:
Owkj0oQsJSbENgTf3N7YMEdRXEA
Master Of Whispers:
OAhjUwGc4QyBVBfBoBKgpBVVJXA
Olias:
OAljUsGqpS1MKgpBVV+Y1Y7YbhA
Gwen:
OQhkAwC7gFKyJkDTvGMEZARcxA
05 Apr 2012 at 02:51 - 37
You said it yourself, youre running an AP bar so run a build designed to be played with one.
Your mesmer, RoJ heroes, UA healer and Icy veins necro is all designed to be used with a physical character. Ball up foes and spike hard.
AP callers are best when played with direct damage heroes with short recharges.
3x discord, panic, esurge, SoS, SoGM hero would perform way better then what you run today. And panic and esurge should be designed for direct damage packets using skills like Unnatural Signet, Cry of Frustration, Mistrust, Shatter Hex and spiritual pain. Not empathy and Shatter hex.
Anyhow, there are more advanced setups then the one above again and better ones too but I don't know what heroes you have available to I'm just giving you a nudge in the right direction.
Provided you don't have mercenary heroes available the best approach IMO is:
Discord/resto
AoTL/prot
Panic
Esurge
Esurge
SoS
SOGM
05 Apr 2012 at 10:38 - 38
The Sunreach group can be tough, especially as heroes have a propensity to overextend. My advice would be to kill the mobs on the other side of the Sunreach loop, then come back down that side, precast siprits and pull the Sunreach mobs towards your position. With careful pulling, you won't get the whole bunch falling onto in an you enclosed space as they tend to do if you charge in.
05 Apr 2012 at 17:14 - 39
Your build's fine. The severe overkill on "Fall Back!" and defense works against you, but then again, it's a vanquish and you aren't shooting for very fast times, so not much of a problem.
Just take out a Longbow and pull the mob. Don't overaggro, and you should be fine.
05 Apr 2012 at 18:10 - 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Your build's fine. The severe overkill on "Fall Back!" and defense works against you, but then again, it's a vanquish and you aren't shooting for very fast times, so not much of a problem.
Just take out a Longbow and pull the mob. Don't overaggro, and you should be fine.
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Not sure you noticed him saying this:
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Furthermore, I'm running a standard AP Caller bar.
You really saying his build is fine in combination with an A/P caller?
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And it's not costing much on the bomber, it's not like any of the usual bomber elites are that special. And FoC would need points in curses, UA costs no attribute points.
