About a month back I deleted my Paragon cause I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna use it anymore, I may have to eat my words on that one. ;p
After exploring Physical heroes for a bit, I've come to the conclusion that they're capable of dealing approximately 80% of the damage a human player would. And that they tendensate to deal damage in cycles, aka spike really hard for 5 sec total slackers for the next 5. The big issue about them is that in order to support more then a single physical player, you generally have to bring so much defense and healing that the loss ends up outweighing the potential gains. So since the AI patch I've believed that the only class capable of utilizing a triple physical frontline would be a paragon, and in this case specifically a imbagon because of the immense defence this build provides.
I will be making a fresh Paragon to test tomorrow, but without further ado this is the concept build I've come up with. And unless I turn out to be completely mistaken, I'm pretty sure this build will allow a paragon a great deal of effectiveness in all missions, dungeons and vanquishes throughout the game. On par with the meta.
The assassins have been tested to 74 DPS single target vs master of damage over 180 seconds, which is highly respectable. I've been able to get 80 but that included bleeding which is 6 DPS and recuired an extra attack on the bar.
Triple Physical Frontline - Paragon Build
Gabs88
Lanier
Hmm, I'v been using a 2 melee hero physway for quite awhile and, well, I think you went a little overboard on the defense. That said, I still use dervs (which are sturdier than assassins), so that may account for the difference...
The 5 hero supporting cast that I use is:
SoS channeling/resto rit
curses/resto
MM/prots
Orders/channeling (for a second splinter copy + arage)
Tease smiter
Iv got the same number of resto heals and monk prots as you. In fact, the only difference is that I use SoA over shield guardian.
The "excessive defense" opinion comes from the fact that you are using an imbagon, a panic, and several more spirit bodies on top of the prots and heals. Thus, I am highly skeptical that being an imbagon or bringing panic is necessary.
Also, why no SoH? It increases physical damage big time.
The 5 hero supporting cast that I use is:
SoS channeling/resto rit
curses/resto
MM/prots
Orders/channeling (for a second splinter copy + arage)
Tease smiter
Iv got the same number of resto heals and monk prots as you. In fact, the only difference is that I use SoA over shield guardian.
The "excessive defense" opinion comes from the fact that you are using an imbagon, a panic, and several more spirit bodies on top of the prots and heals. Thus, I am highly skeptical that being an imbagon or bringing panic is necessary.
Also, why no SoH? It increases physical damage big time.
Olle
I say no more.
ultimak719
I would say get rid of your sogm rit for a n/mo orders/smite support hybrid. The rest looks pretty standard and good.
Gabs88
Ever assuming that you use OoTV @ 18 points with 19 lifesteal per attack and 5 attacks hitting per second. Heroes will still not recast it before the previous instance runs out. Which means the maximum potential uptime without cons is 6\8 sec or 75% of the time. And a maximum added DPS of 71,25, on a character that sacrifices ~25,5% of it's health every 8 seconds. Brings no bodyblock and is bound to repeatedly pull unwanted attention.
SoGM in combination with SoS having Painful bond will outperform this easily!
And in reality, any orders builds I see performs significantly worse then these numbers suggests. Only place orders has is N/Mo or N/P orders in SoOSC.
SoGM in combination with SoS having Painful bond will outperform this easily!
And in reality, any orders builds I see performs significantly worse then these numbers suggests. Only place orders has is N/Mo or N/P orders in SoOSC.
Gabs88
Hey, lucky for us this is VERY easy to test.
I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.
First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.
So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.
160-126 = 34.
After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.
DPS to beat is 34.
Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.
And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.
Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.
None of this changes the simple truth though.
ORDERS IS CRAP!
I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.
First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.
So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.
160-126 = 34.
After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.
DPS to beat is 34.
Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.
And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.
Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.
None of this changes the simple truth though.
ORDERS IS CRAP!
Azazello
There are very very few single skills that do 34+ dps, off the top of my head I would guess less than a dozen, mostly broken shit like splinter weapon and SoH. You can't call ootv crap without being laughed at, although I realise you're just using hyperbole for emphasis, since you're right in a way, because painful bond is one of those skills. On your bars, the only skills that have the potential to break 34 dps are: SoGM, painful bond, splinter weapon, and the minion skills. CoF if you pull big enough too, so 8/60.
Keep in mind that it's also a significant amount of pressure to take off your healers. For example, two of your bars use PwK, and that heals for about 65% of what ootv does, even counting the fact that it heals everyone, not just your physicals.
Keep in mind that it's also a significant amount of pressure to take off your healers. For example, two of your bars use PwK, and that heals for about 65% of what ootv does, even counting the fact that it heals everyone, not just your physicals.
loopysnoopy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
Hey, lucky for us this is VERY easy to test.
I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.
First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.
So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.
160-126 = 34.
After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.
DPS to beat is 34.
Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.
And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.
Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.
None of this changes the simple truth though.
ORDERS IS CRAP!
SoGm ritu does more damage but it to has the flaws and while your using hero melee why not buff them its okay to have a cushion effect but mass AoE will wipe the spirits out while orders have enchant stripping etc I still say if your using more then 2 melee bring orders. PS depending on your orders bar I usualy have mine nec/P with spear shouting gfte find there weakness etc to bring up the damage packet also blood bond says hi to relieving healing a bit which takes pressure off the monks nec rits or who ever is healing
I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.
First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.
So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.
160-126 = 34.
After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.
DPS to beat is 34.
Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.
And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.
Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.
None of this changes the simple truth though.
ORDERS IS CRAP!
SoGm ritu does more damage but it to has the flaws and while your using hero melee why not buff them its okay to have a cushion effect but mass AoE will wipe the spirits out while orders have enchant stripping etc I still say if your using more then 2 melee bring orders. PS depending on your orders bar I usualy have mine nec/P with spear shouting gfte find there weakness etc to bring up the damage packet also blood bond says hi to relieving healing a bit which takes pressure off the monks nec rits or who ever is healing
Gabs88
Don't need hyperbole 
OoTV is crap, and if you wanna object to that simple fact, provide some numbers or a build to back it up with. And it's not 1 skill, it's 3. OoTV, Blood Renewal and Awaken The Blood
But, if I wanted to use Hyperbole I could. So here it is:
In practice, this bar will outdamage an OoTV necro with the 3 basic skills on his bar. Provided it has 11 fast casting and hits an average of 3 foes, and thats without a 40\40 set or even a staff.
Tadaaaaa
Yeah, single esurge every 10 sec hitting an average of 3 foes deals more damage then OoTV with 3 physicals. And way more reliably too
OoTV is crap, and if you wanna object to that simple fact, provide some numbers or a build to back it up with. And it's not 1 skill, it's 3. OoTV, Blood Renewal and Awaken The BloodBut, if I wanted to use Hyperbole I could. So here it is:
In practice, this bar will outdamage an OoTV necro with the 3 basic skills on his bar. Provided it has 11 fast casting and hits an average of 3 foes, and thats without a 40\40 set or even a staff.
Tadaaaaa
Yeah, single esurge every 10 sec hitting an average of 3 foes deals more damage then OoTV with 3 physicals. And way more reliably too
Azazello
But you don't have esurge. I listed the skills you have that can do more than 34 DPS, feel free to show me any I may have missed. SF can also do more, but after that the aoe DD spells that can do more than 34 dps start getting pretty thin on the ground surprisingly.
BTW, if you do want to talk about hitting multiple targets, instead of using 3 physicals, use a single derv and you'll see more than 34 dps. Add a second derv and a paragon and things start looking a bit different. I don't run orders, but saying it's crap just makes you look like a fool.
BTW, if you do want to talk about hitting multiple targets, instead of using 3 physicals, use a single derv and you'll see more than 34 dps. Add a second derv and a paragon and things start looking a bit different. I don't run orders, but saying it's crap just makes you look like a fool.
mortenya
i feel that orders is better when you give all your casters spears. generally i don't feel it is worth the investment if you are only running 2-3 physicals. might as well just use brutal or nightmare weapon.
Azazello
That actually reminds me, is two splinters enough for 3 physicals and a mm? I run two with two physicals and no minions yet still have a fair bit of downtime on it. One copy would do similar dps to your entire 8th bar (discounting painful bond ) if you have enough downtime for it to be cast on recharge, although it would be much lower single target obviously.
) if you have enough downtime for it to be cast on recharge, although it would be much lower single target obviously.
Gabs88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazello
BTW, if you do want to talk about hitting multiple targets, instead of using 3 physicals, use a single derv and you'll see more than 34 dps. Add a second derv and a paragon and things start looking a bit different. I don't run orders, but saying it's crap just makes you look like a fool.
If you wanna keep whining about how amazing Orders is, please make your own thread. Or at least post a frigging build that includes other skills pushing the Orders DPS up a bit. Because in this thread the only thing that flies is numbers or good arguements in the cases where numbers can't easily be provided. Aka builds that can't be tested effectively vs Master of Damage because he simply just stands there doing nothing. Examples would be interrupt based builds or action based builds such SS necros on Empathy. (Which yes, are bad)
If I can't come up with a reasonable way to prove a build is effective, I don't use it.
Quote:
forgot to say only 1 at a time as each would override if i'm not mistaken tho SoH and orders go together so you get increased damaged I think but cant be sure
Quote:
Ok, here's a build where orders does more than 34 damage:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5...emplate1um.jpg
Ootv @14 deals 89 dps when your dervs are hitting 3 targets each. Kind of shits on esurge no? When you don't know how to take advantage of a skill, it's not always the skill that's crap. You have a point there about dervish inate attack its all AoE
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5...emplate1um.jpg
Ootv @14 deals 89 dps when your dervs are hitting 3 targets each. Kind of shits on esurge no? When you don't know how to take advantage of a skill, it's not always the skill that's crap. You have a point there about dervish inate attack its all AoE
Gabs88
Yeah, fill out the rest of the bars and make a working HM build out of that. And account for the fact that you have more then enough AoE by bringing 2x splinter weapons alone so the AoE damage from the scythe becomes completely obsolete. And the fact that running a triple dervish frontline would mean you need to fill up with additional defence and condition removal. Loosing DPS on other bars. And the single target dps loss from bringing dervishes over assassins in the first place.
Stop trolling jackass
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopysnoopy
Stop trolling jackass
----------
Quote:
forgot to say only 1 at a time as each would override if i'm not mistaken tho SoH and orders go together so you get increased damaged I think but cant be sure
That is correct, but you still have to make a viable team build out of it. Bringing both defence, offence and utility.
Azazello
Actually, like I said, I run two dervs and two splinters, and the aoe from flash enchants and scythes is far from meaningless. In fact, the aoe from scythes makes splinter weapon that much more awesome, since you get to use all your charges in two swings, or one eremites or twin moon etc. Plus the splinters hit your main target for 90+ with each swing. The only reason I don't bring orders is because I'm lazy and run the same bars everywhere, from VQs to DoA, so I take a shitton of defense instead (since I can't really bring SY).
If I was going to take orders it would probably be something like player, orders, vos or reapers sweep derv, vos derv, panic, ineptitude, offering of spirit healer, and either mm or st. Orders would be rt/n since 14 spec in channeling makes more difference than 14 spec in blood, but if I was running reapers sweep I would be tempted to use a cultists fervor/dark fury orders so he could just spam earthshaker. If I was spamming SY, I'd go with the mm, and consider skipping the ineptitude mes. In that slot I'd try another spearchucker, a triple heat ele, or anything that could carry a fourth splinter weapon.
If I was going to take orders it would probably be something like player, orders, vos or reapers sweep derv, vos derv, panic, ineptitude, offering of spirit healer, and either mm or st. Orders would be rt/n since 14 spec in channeling makes more difference than 14 spec in blood, but if I was running reapers sweep I would be tempted to use a cultists fervor/dark fury orders so he could just spam earthshaker. If I was spamming SY, I'd go with the mm, and consider skipping the ineptitude mes. In that slot I'd try another spearchucker, a triple heat ele, or anything that could carry a fourth splinter weapon.
Azazello
This thread actually has me wanting to recommend dervs over sins. 75 dps vs 50x3 dps, you get half as much overall dps. Then if you look at splinter weapon, when using a scythe you're going to hit your primary target with 3 charges of it. At 16 spec, that's 159 damage, if it's used on recharge that's an extra 27 dps to the primary target, so you end up with more ae dps and more single target dps. Even if splinter is only used half as often as it could be, the sin has only 12 more single target dps , compared to the ~57 aoe dps loss (50x2 minus the splinter charges that would otherwise have hit an extra one of the surrounding targets rather than the primary and estimating death blossom at 30 aoe dps, which is probably generous). If you're not hitting 3 guys at once obviously assassins start to look a bit better, but how often does that happen, and which pulls do you want to be doing the most damage to? Also consider, if you carry enough splinters to maintain it near constantly (two copies per derv), each derv will get you 104 dps on your primary target, or slightly less really since if you have two dervs you need 4 copies of splinter meaning one will be 12 spec if you're not using a merc.
Which brings me back to orders again actually
. If you have dark fury up, something like pious fury and pious renewal will let you charge twin moon sweep anytime you hit two or more targets with it. If you're hitting 3, that means you use every charge of splinter weapon in a single swing, and if it's a pack of 4, each of those charges will hit its full complement of targets. You'd need 5 copies just to keep up with how fast you're attacking. 6 scythe hits, a full set of splinter weapon charges, and 144 self healing every 1.17 seconds, while actually gaining energy. In that circumstance, order of pain would be dealing 65 dps per dervish. Strength of honor would be doing 123, again, per dervish. If your scythe hits for 25ish without orders, you're talking about ~800 total dps with that setup (one pious derv, one orders necro, one smite monk, 5 copies of splinter [email protected] spread through the team), which should be fairly sufficient. I'm not saying pious renewal, pious fury, twin moon sweep is a great hero bar, I don't even know if heroes use pious renewal. Nor am I saying that 5 copies of splinter weapon is going to help make a resilient team, or that heroes will spam it fast enough to make full use of all five copies. I'm just highlighting some of the broken stuff you can do with scythes and melee buffs like orders.
Which brings me back to orders again actually
. If you have dark fury up, something like pious fury and pious renewal will let you charge twin moon sweep anytime you hit two or more targets with it. If you're hitting 3, that means you use every charge of splinter weapon in a single swing, and if it's a pack of 4, each of those charges will hit its full complement of targets. You'd need 5 copies just to keep up with how fast you're attacking. 6 scythe hits, a full set of splinter weapon charges, and 144 self healing every 1.17 seconds, while actually gaining energy. In that circumstance, order of pain would be dealing 65 dps per dervish. Strength of honor would be doing 123, again, per dervish. If your scythe hits for 25ish without orders, you're talking about ~800 total dps with that setup (one pious derv, one orders necro, one smite monk, 5 copies of splinter [email protected] spread through the team), which should be fairly sufficient. I'm not saying pious renewal, pious fury, twin moon sweep is a great hero bar, I don't even know if heroes use pious renewal. Nor am I saying that 5 copies of splinter weapon is going to help make a resilient team, or that heroes will spam it fast enough to make full use of all five copies. I'm just highlighting some of the broken stuff you can do with scythes and melee buffs like orders.
bleh
2 Assassins! awesome.
Gonna dust off my Para and give this a go.
I ran 2x Dervish Heros with 2x splinter for a while, but found the killing to be poor when i got into a stalemate situation I.e. 2-3x healers without enough shutdown available.
was kinda hard to kill 3 x healers kiting all over the show with splinter >_>.
Found an Axe warr with DeepWound, splinter and a water snare ele much better TBH.
Are 2x Assassins > than a Axe warr or even Hammer warr for this team?
I suppose the crits add much more DPS.
Gonna dust off my Para and give this a go.
I ran 2x Dervish Heros with 2x splinter for a while, but found the killing to be poor when i got into a stalemate situation I.e. 2-3x healers without enough shutdown available.
was kinda hard to kill 3 x healers kiting all over the show with splinter >_>.
Found an Axe warr with DeepWound, splinter and a water snare ele much better TBH.
Are 2x Assassins > than a Axe warr or even Hammer warr for this team?
I suppose the crits add much more DPS.
byteme!
Orders scales upwards if you meet any of these requirements
# of physical weapons in party - casters included (spears)
# number of hits per attack - can be increased with IAS
- can be increased based on weapon (scythe, daggers)
- can be increased based on build (example: barrage)
Orders scales according to your setup/build. Whether Orders is good or crap depends on you and what you run.
# of physical weapons in party - casters included (spears)
# number of hits per attack - can be increased with IAS
- can be increased based on weapon (scythe, daggers)
- can be increased based on build (example: barrage)
Orders scales according to your setup/build. Whether Orders is good or crap depends on you and what you run.
Gabs88
Orders is crap if your setup is good is more like it. Fck off already if you wanna discuss orders all day, make your own thread.
IAS was already used.
Daggers was already used.
Spears on casters is retarded, as it means heroes are likely to waste splinter weapon on them rather then assassins.
Heroes suck at barrage.
The last time orders was good for general PVE Barrage+Pet was still a viable way to play.
You wanna put more physicals in to the team? Go with a 5 phys setup so that orders DPS goes up to acceptable levels? The make your own build doing that. And solve the practical issues that comes with the territory. Make up for the lost DPS of the casters and have fun in wonderland...
Last page, I tested orders vs SoGM in a test that strongly favored the orders build. Master of damage only records damage dealt directly to him, and while the 2 assassins and spear was locked on directly to master of damage only. The spirits went off killing the targets on the side as well loosing recorded DPS.
Orders also relies on physical attacks in the first place. So conditions such as cripple or blind, hexes, blocks, KDs and a ton of other stuff with in real gameplay decrease the DPS of the orders further down then 34 again. So whatever gains you get by running a spear mesmer or spear channeling rit are quickly lost.
And in the end, the SoGM didn't just outperform the Orders build by a small margin. Even with only 15 attribute points on both the SoS and SoGM rit, the SoGM dealth 3 times as much damage as the orders did. 3 times as much, no amount of scythes or spears in the entire world is gonna make up for that. And the insignificant amount of healing doesn't either.
IAS was already used.
Daggers was already used.
Spears on casters is retarded, as it means heroes are likely to waste splinter weapon on them rather then assassins.
Heroes suck at barrage.
The last time orders was good for general PVE Barrage+Pet was still a viable way to play.
You wanna put more physicals in to the team? Go with a 5 phys setup so that orders DPS goes up to acceptable levels? The make your own build doing that. And solve the practical issues that comes with the territory. Make up for the lost DPS of the casters and have fun in wonderland...
Last page, I tested orders vs SoGM in a test that strongly favored the orders build. Master of damage only records damage dealt directly to him, and while the 2 assassins and spear was locked on directly to master of damage only. The spirits went off killing the targets on the side as well loosing recorded DPS.
Orders also relies on physical attacks in the first place. So conditions such as cripple or blind, hexes, blocks, KDs and a ton of other stuff with in real gameplay decrease the DPS of the orders further down then 34 again. So whatever gains you get by running a spear mesmer or spear channeling rit are quickly lost.
And in the end, the SoGM didn't just outperform the Orders build by a small margin. Even with only 15 attribute points on both the SoS and SoGM rit, the SoGM dealth 3 times as much damage as the orders did. 3 times as much, no amount of scythes or spears in the entire world is gonna make up for that. And the insignificant amount of healing doesn't either.
Azazello
I posted a bar earlier that would let you do more dps than your whole sogm bar with one skill and you're still talking about how crap that skill is. I am amused.
superraptors
frontline
frontline
frontline
orders with mop + barbs rip ench with inspired hex
sos n/rt with splinters+ painful + some resto skills
sogm rit
st rit with boon of creation + spirits gift
mm with prot skills
id probably take jagged strike + exhausting over wild strike + unsuspecting, block isn't a problem at all with a billion spirits + minions hitting it.
frontline
frontline
orders with mop + barbs rip ench with inspired hex
sos n/rt with splinters+ painful + some resto skills
sogm rit
st rit with boon of creation + spirits gift
mm with prot skills
id probably take jagged strike + exhausting over wild strike + unsuspecting, block isn't a problem at all with a billion spirits + minions hitting it.
Gabs88
Azazello
Two characters. You don't have much experience running scythes (or melee at all) do you? You need to stop raving on about how two splinter weapons instantly smashes groups. Again, I hope it's hyperbole, because otherwise you continue to make yourself look like an idiot. Or are you talking about NM? Maybe stop testing on master of damage and actually run some melee.
loopysnoopy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers. The thing here is gabs is the SoGm VS melee+orders is not as easy to say SoGm is the best. I'm saying this as if your in the battlefeild and not at the master of damage you will see SoGm has a few draw backs BUT so does melee+orders but meele heros Kite rather well but spirts have a fixed postion which is libel to AoE and general hate
Melee+orders draw backs are simple melee hate and horrible pathing. But still as you keep saying SoGm is the BEST prove it with an actual screen shot in a dungeon or VQ with high AoE and I'll prove it with the same setup minus the SoGm with an orders nec i'll even go as far to use all your builds to make it fair. with a time of completion would be fair
Azazello
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
Maybe stop talking about theoretical DPS which you seem unable to calculate, look at the downtime and damage curves assosiated with your build and read up on diminishing returns? Those 89 DPS you get in your dream circumstances with 3 targets hit on every single scythe swing is still less then what SoGM actually delivers tested and proven. And it doesn't need fairytale circumstances to do it either.
The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers. If hitting 3 targets at a time is 'fairytale circumstances' you're doing it wrong. Let me tell you what you sound like: "Splinter weapon needs 4 targets adjacent to each other to get its full damage, it's useless except in fairytale circumstances".
I took two dervs to master of damage and ootv increased dps by 21. WHEN you're hitting 3 targets, that's 63. It raised my autoattack damage from spear by 14. That's 77, from one skill. Aside from splinter, the only skill on your team that does that much damage is painful bond, and it takes 2 elites and 5 other skills across two bars to support that. I'm not telling you to use orders, I'm telling you it's idiotic to say they're crap, because all the orders skills are very good. They are quite niche however, so they do not fit in many teams. It's impossible to test the dps increase from dark fury/order of pain for scythe users because the adjacent dummies spend all their time dead, skewing the adrenaline gain from dark fury downwards so you can't do shit like knocklock with reapers sweep or chain twin moon sweep. I could put IH up to get the same effect before testing I guess. The adrenaline gain would still be lower than you get in actual play, not enough to spam wearying for example, but at least I could test what effect it has on dps when you get to double strike every hit with a pair of scythes.
Oh, and it turns out heroes use pious renewal just fine
Update: dark fury/order of pain added 27 dps to the dervs, 81 when hitting 3 targets, and 10 to my autoattack, total of 91. Going back to your earlier example, to do that much damage, [email protected] with 13 FC needs to hit 10 or more targets every time. Single target, orders does 3x as much damage as esurge. 2 targets, 3x as much. 3 targets, 3x as much. 4-9 targets, still does more damage. 10 or more targets, esurge hurts more. Another way to put it would be that half an orders bar does as much damage as one of your assassin bars. It may not fit in your team, but it certainly isn't crap.
The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers. If hitting 3 targets at a time is 'fairytale circumstances' you're doing it wrong. Let me tell you what you sound like: "Splinter weapon needs 4 targets adjacent to each other to get its full damage, it's useless except in fairytale circumstances".
I took two dervs to master of damage and ootv increased dps by 21. WHEN you're hitting 3 targets, that's 63. It raised my autoattack damage from spear by 14. That's 77, from one skill. Aside from splinter, the only skill on your team that does that much damage is painful bond, and it takes 2 elites and 5 other skills across two bars to support that. I'm not telling you to use orders, I'm telling you it's idiotic to say they're crap, because all the orders skills are very good. They are quite niche however, so they do not fit in many teams. It's impossible to test the dps increase from dark fury/order of pain for scythe users because the adjacent dummies spend all their time dead, skewing the adrenaline gain from dark fury downwards so you can't do shit like knocklock with reapers sweep or chain twin moon sweep. I could put IH up to get the same effect before testing I guess. The adrenaline gain would still be lower than you get in actual play, not enough to spam wearying for example, but at least I could test what effect it has on dps when you get to double strike every hit with a pair of scythes.
Oh, and it turns out heroes use pious renewal just fine
Update: dark fury/order of pain added 27 dps to the dervs, 81 when hitting 3 targets, and 10 to my autoattack, total of 91. Going back to your earlier example, to do that much damage, [email protected] with 13 FC needs to hit 10 or more targets every time. Single target, orders does 3x as much damage as esurge. 2 targets, 3x as much. 3 targets, 3x as much. 4-9 targets, still does more damage. 10 or more targets, esurge hurts more. Another way to put it would be that half an orders bar does as much damage as one of your assassin bars. It may not fit in your team, but it certainly isn't crap.