Masochism - Yes or No?

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Simply put, do you think it deserves a spot on a minion master bar? Yes or no? And why, why not?

Olle

Olle

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2008

Ign: Miniature Julia

Teh Academy[PhD]

W/

If I feel i can take a skill out, yes, +2 SR&DM is nice.

Tess80

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2010

Me/

If your minions are supposed to stay alive (minion master), then Masochism helps making them more durable and will allow one additional minion, so I'd say it deserves a spot.

If your minions are supposed to bomb the enemy with Death Nova (minion bomber), you're cycling through minions fast enough so that the extra durability of your minions is less of an issue. It's still a decent skill to bring, but usually I have other skills I'd like to take more on these kind of bars.

Avishh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2009

A/E

Can help to reach a breakpoint, so I normally take it, but it's definitely not key and if it didn't reach a minion breakpoint I wouldn't bother.

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

The extra minion, 6 energy/15 seconds from Soul Reaping, and slightly stronger Death Novas/whatever other damage skills you bring make it worthwhile to me. The extra health also makes it a bit easier to keep them alive between battles

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

The skill adds +2 to your two most important attributes. Why would you not take it?

InStars

InStars

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2011

Latvia

Tempus Omnia Revelat [TOR]

E/A

I would take it on pure Death Magic necro, but normally I run hybrids and I use secondary profession skills instead.

Gemm

Gemm

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2010

Martyrs to the Flame [BurN]

N/

Quote:
2. Bar compression, what else could I take? (This is really the importaint one)
I mostly use it, althouuuuuugh sometimes i take putrid flesh for extra pressure in areas with groups that have a healer(s), but i micro it incase a hero decides to abuse it. It's quite nice, helps with spiking down groups quickly with the extra degen.

I'd say 70% of the time i use masochism though, as people have said extra minion helps in the long run and extra energy from SR.

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

I use Masochism, but not to "compete" with other minion masters in my group

12+1+3 death magic
12+1 soul reaping
3 curses

Discord - 115 base damage without any cons or title related damage bonus
Necrosis
Enfeeble - condition feeds KD of the summon
Malign Intervention - hex to feed discord
Verata's Gaze - master the level 20 bone horror
Summon Naga Shaman
Masochism
opt slot - res, EVAS, Technobabble, rupt, ench removal,etc

majoho

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
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Not much. I have seen Olias using it and saccing himself to death when he was already at low health, with both my healers and all the enemies dead. Perhaps he was trying to cast PS on himself then with Masochism on and murdered himself in the process. I have had some survivability issues with it as well so I stopped using it.

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Its like asking whether to take death nova on a minion bomber

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
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I've just been testing it a little, but my reasoning is based on this:
1. It seems to make MM's fall behind the team more.
2. Bar compression, what else could I take? (This is really the importaint one)
3. How much damage does it really add in practice?

That said, I'm still using it on most of my chars. I'm mostly just curious of what I actually loose by not doing so? Bar compression would be a valid argument if there were good replacements, but what else is there to use? Besides, the standard MM bar already has a free slot (Putrid Bile).

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
View Post
Bar compression would be a valid argument if there were good replacements, but what else is there to use? Besides, the standard MM bar already has a free slot (Putrid Bile). You'd seriously loose Putrid Bile before Masochism? O.o

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Yes. If I weren't going AFK most of the time, I'd lose Blood of the Master before Masochism as well.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

A full Masochism minion army does ~25% more damage than it would without masochism (counting the 11th minion and +2 levels to all minions). It provides ~35% more of a damage buffer, and BotM is effectively ~25-35% more powerful. It makes soul reaping ~20% more powerful (depending on your attribute allocation). I hope I don't have to explain why all of this is a good thing.

Putrid Bile is weaksauce. You have to micro it heavily to make it actually trigger reliably, and when it does its still pretty weak for a skill that can only work effectively once per battle. Would never use it, go /Mo for PS/SB/SoA, /P for SYG/FB, etc. You can find a whole lot better stuff to place on a bar than PB.

Lanier

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
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You'd seriously loose Putrid Bile before Masochism? O.o I would choose both masochism and deathly swarm over putrid bile (which is exactly what I do). Putrid bile is not reliable and I have no idea why its still on the mainbar of the wiki build.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by majoho
View Post
I have had some survivability issues with it as well so I stopped using it. Most of the time, Masochism works out fine. Maybe it is just me, but I don't feel a big difference with or without Masochism on my MM bar since my mesmers kill so much faster than the minions do and with so many spirits, my team can usually survive well even if all the minions are dead. But like I said, I take it because I have not found a better alternative.

If you are having survivability issues with your MM, try fitting in blood bond. It works well with masochism. With a superior death magic rune and masochism, my MM is frequently the favorite target, but blood bond balances all these away very well and helps redirect damage to the minions making them explode more.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

I've always been kinda iffy about it.

2+ to DM is nice but the gains are extremely minor. The damage boost to regular skills is almost nothing and it's not really enough to suddenly make your minions much stronger/tankier. It might be tempting to take on a bar with AotL but in most cases, I wouldn't bother with it.

Wielder Of Magic

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2008

Netherlands

The Saviors Of [EviL]

D/

I rarely bring it.
My MM functions fine without it, and I dislike the saccing.
energy is fine without the soul reaping boost, and 9-10 minions is more then enough for me to succeed anywhere with it when I decide to bring the MM ( not always the case).

Relyk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

W/

Masochism is optimal for any build speccing into Death Magic or IV. You're not doing yourself any favors avoiding it on an MM.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
My MM functions fine without it, and I dislike the saccing. The sac is the most ridiculously miniscule thing imaginable. Even spamming skills nonstop it's less damage than your necromancer would take if they were suffering from bleeding. MMs also have 75 armor and can stay far away from danger. If you want to be invincible take blood bond which is effectively +80 armor that also works against armor ignoring damage. You'll be begging enemies to come after you instead of your allies because you tank almost as well as a dedicated tank build.

The benefits of Masochism are huge. With the exponential gains you get from each additional point not running 18/19 death magic is just gimping yourself.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

Exponential? The gains of any increase in attributes are usually, at best, linear. The skill is still worth it.

Wielder Of Magic

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2008

Netherlands

The Saviors Of [EviL]

D/

I usually prefer another utility from a secondary profession in that slot.
I could care less about 1 more minion of ~10 more damage from a death nova.
If 10 damage is the key to succes or fail I should just redesign my entire team.
And since the MM already has godly e-managment I don't need the + 2 soul reaping either.

Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic
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I usually prefer another utility from a secondary profession in that slot. That is fine. Your MM is not going to fail just because you don't bring Masochism.

Masochism is usually a good choice and there are not many better alternatives in most MM builds. But I wouldn't say that all possible MM builds under the sun must bring along Masochism to be optimal.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis
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Exponential? The gains of any increase in attributes are usually, at best, linear. The skill is still worth it. Health + Armor = exponential, as they multiply together to find the total durability (technically quadratic at n^2 if you want to be mathematically precise). Damage per hit increase is supralinear as well (technically quadratic again but the quadratic factor is very small). Total damage dealt before death in a battle is therefore approximately cubic (n^3).

Example: A Bone Horror @ Death Magic 0 vs 10 vs 20. To calculate damage before death lets just presume that our average minion is suffering 40 DPS in battle with no healing (just made this number up for demonstration purposes). Note that I don't know the actual average damage a minion deals out since there is an unknown random crit rate involved and the wiki just gives the total damage range. I'll go test and update these numbers later, though I doubt I'm off by much.

100 health and 9 armor = 41 effective health, 1 damage per hit. Damage before death = .33

320 health and 50 armor = 269 effective health, ~16 damage per hit. Damage before death = 33.9

520 health and 88 armor = 844 effective health, ~ 37 damage per hit. Damage before death = 246.3

Compare to Flare which offers a mere 20/50/80 at the same attributes. Pretty much every skill in the game increases linearly except for those skills that have multiple linearly increasing factors that multiply each other. Besides Minion skills, Splinter Weapon (20/560/1560 potential damage), Protective Bond (6/4/2 energy per hit), and spirits (health/armor increases + defensive spirits health loss per activation decreases as well) are good examples.

EDIT: My tests (N=57) show that r10 bone horrors deal 15.5 damage per hit and r20 bone horrors deals 37.1 damage per hit. Wow, I was close in my prior estimate.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Awien
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Health has a linear effect on durability, armor a logarithmic. The product is far from exponential. Sorry, I was mistaken before. Linear increases in armor give exponential effects. Certainly not logarithmic, which is even worse than linear. Damage taken is the log of the armor, which means the inverse (damage before death) is exponential.

+40 armor = 100% more durability
+80 armor = 200%
+120 armor = 400%

Of course it can be argued that durability is sub-exponential when you take into account that some damage you face is armor ignoring. Furthermore, whatever growth rate it technically is doesn't matter much since we are only interested in a very small section of the function anyway (16-19), not extrapolating things to infinity.

And yeah, with EBSoH + OoU minions are hitting almost 70 damage per hit, which translates into over 800 DPS if you have 22 bone fiends (though chances are you have at least a few vamps/horrors). Even against warriors with 100 armor they are hitting 55 damage per hit. God forbid using Volfen Blessing to give all your minions +33% IAS as well, GW should immediately stop and tell you that you have won the game when you reach 1200 DPS.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

The damage you take with increasing armour is an example of exponential decay (that is exponential growth, just with a negative exponent). This is not logarithmic (if it were, the damage taken would increase with armour since log(x) is an increasing function and its image covers the reals (it gives both negative and positive output) so simple things like -log(x) wouldn't work either).

This is easy to see knowing the damage formula and as a result, the number of hits required to kill you is an exponential function of armour.

For clarification, an exponential function is a function of the form
f(x) = a^(bx) for some constants a,b.
They are noteworthy since their rate of change at x is proportional to f(x) (i.e. the gradient function is also exponential).

Let H be maximum health, A be armour rating, B be the incoming damage, D the effective damage after armour and N be the number of hits required to kill.
Clearly N = H / D (rounded up, but we'll ignore that)

D = B x 2^((60-A)/40) - the basic damage formula found on the wiki
Using exponent laws, we get the more clear:
D = B x 2^(60/40) x 2^(-A/40)

If I let M = B x 2^(60/40) - a constant, then D is clearly just an exponential function of armour.
D = M x 2^(-A/40)

Hence
N = H / D = H / (Mx2^(-A/40))

N = 1/M x H x 2^(A/40)

N, the number of hits required to kill a target, is an exponential function of A, the armour of the target. Durability is a function of the time and effort it takes to kill you.



TLDR
Awien's observation is correct, but the conclusion was missed, and Kunder (still) needs to check his definition of a logarithmic function.

The raw amount of damage reduction may appear to decrease, but because it's still halved every 40 armour, armour doesn't mathematically suffer diminishing returns (until rounding errors become significant).


As for Masochism; the armour boost on Bone Minions is only +6, the health boost +40; from the bone minion's perspective, this is great, but to the player it's near inconsequential; we want that extra death nova damage and the 11th minion.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

A logarithmic function is the inverse of an exponential function. Not sure how you can argue against one and accept the other. Run numbers one way you get one, run them the other and you get the other.

As mentioned, the technical definition isn't important because we're only covering a change in X from 1.5 to 1.7. Being exponential has little to do with the increase in power at such small factors, it was merely a nice term to use to draw attention to the poorly understood fact of minion scaling.

Quote:
As for Masochism; the armour boost on Bone Minions is only +6, the health boost +40

In fact, at these levels (16/17 DM with Masochism taking us to 18/19), the health bonus does more than the armour boost for durability.
+6 armor is +11% effective health. Furthermore, no-one uses Bone Minions. Bone Fiends do get +3 armor per level, but they aren't the front liners.

Talking about Bone Horrors, the armor boost is +8 for 2 levels (+15% boost to EHP). Now, at that point the +EHP from armor is approximately 1.5x the +EHP from health. EHP of lvl 18 = 541, EHP of lvl 18 + 40 HP = 590, EHP of lvl 18 + 8 armor = 622.

It should be noted though that comparing them separately is just stupid. They are multiplicative bonuses. The +armor is good because you have a lot of +health already and vice versa.

Quote:
from the bone minion's perspective, this is great, but to the player it's near inconsequential; we want that extra death nova damage and the 11th minion. EHP for lvl 18 vs lvl 20 is 541 vs. 678. I think +130 effective health for each minion is pretty damn substantial, don't you?

At best you MIGHT hit one or two enemies with Death Nova during a battle, and it's only a pathetic +10 damage each.

11th minion only gives a +10% improvement to EHP, while the level boost gave all minions +25% EHP. 11th minions also adds +10% damage which is approximately the damage increase that all other minions get from +2 levels. Still a nice gain but not better than +levels.

But in any case, you get all of these. That's why not putting Masochism on your bar is one of the dumbest moves you can make. +25% minion EHP, +10% minion damage, +10% minions, +skill effects, +soul reaping. It's pretty much a second elite skill when you add it all together.

Xenomortis

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

Who the hell uses bone horrors and fiends on a hero? Unless the meta has suddenly switched from Minions+Nova, then Horrors and Fiends are hardly relevant. Although I put in +5 armour into my calculator, not 6 armour, so yeah, the +6 armour is slightly better than the 10% boost in health. An 11th minion is also not equivalent to a 10% increase in health across 10 minions in anything but the most simple and unhelpful model.
And it's pretty damn rare for humans to run a minion bar; if they are then Masochism is definitely superior to pretty much anything else that could be shoved onto the bar for the given reasons (and more).

And f(x)= a*2^(-x/b) isn't logarithmic, it's exponential. You do know there is a difference between log(x) and e^(-x) right? Or more generally, between reciprocal and inverse?

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

We're talking about MMs here. MBs are worse builds, don't run them.

Keep in mind that if both armor and health boost +10% then together they boost +21%, so the total EHP of your minions is boosted more by the +levels than the +minion. Of course all 3 are boosted, the total for a bone horror force is nearly +40% EHP. As I mentioned, Masochism also boosts your minion damage by +10% which is equivalent to the +10% damage of an extra minion.

Beyond that its hard to quantify whether the benefits of the extra minion (more soul reaping/body blocking/targets) are more important than the drawbacks of an extra minion (increased weakness to AoE/increased sac from BotM/less individual HP). I'll certainly agree that an additional minion is more important when running EBSoH/OoU though.

Quote:
And f(x)= a*2^(-x/b) isn't logarithmic, it's exponential. You do know there is a difference between log(x) and e^(-x) right? Or more generally, between reciprocal and inverse? I never said it was. But any exponential function can be inverted if you want to work backwards to find the armor from the damage.

EDIT: Whoops, I mixed up terms in post 39. Disregard what I said then if that is what you are referring to.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Death Nova is vastly overrated, sadly. At the moment its only real usage is to pre-buff all your minions before battle, which does lead to a very impressive amount of damage. Unfortunately taking 30s to do that before every battle is a complete and utter waste of time unless it's a boss battle or something.

Adjacent AoE that relies on Minion AI to land in the right place is just a horrible concept to base a build around. It needs to be at least Nearby AoE to deserve the power people attribute to it. That way it can at least hit whatever the minion is chasing after.

(Not that Minion Bombers need a buff, minion spam is always imba whether its MM or MB.)

Relyk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

W/

Any frontliner can easily get enemies balled on a minion wall to get hit by death nova. I'm not sure about casters but EVAS would give the same control.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Any frontliner can easily get enemies balled on a minion wall to get hit by death nova. I'm not sure about casters but EVAS would give the same control.
If the enemies are balled up you have already won. Use 100 blades/VoS/Death Blossom/Splinter Weapon/MoP and do 10x as much damage as Death Nova would, and much more reliably. Casters have tons of various AoE that will deal damage more efficiently. A Panic mesmer will do well over 100 DPS while interrupting every skill/attack used. Death Nova does... 40 DPS, under perfect conditions. Estimate under half that in realistic conditions.

Quote:
It works because foes attacking the bone minions kill them quickly due to their low level, so they're at adjacent range. The minion AI does not need to find them. But the problem is hero MMs lag behind so badly casting DN that it's just not worth the damage, plus their minions hang with them so you don't have your minion wall up soon enough. If an enemy is ranged the minion can die without hitting anything. If the enemy has enough damage the minion can die before the necro is done casting (2s cast time FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU). If the minion is positioned so that it only hits one target the Death Nova is basically a waste (Deathly Swarm is as good or better). Even when it works right, mediocre damage for the time investment.

Quote:
Unfortunately a minion bomber is the only MM build that the hero AI is able to play out effectively. A human MM with PvE skills like EBSoH is expected to exceed their damage but unless you play a MM yourself, you can't always have a MM with you.

You cannot compare a human build with PvE skills against a hero build without one. This is true for the other builds besides MM. The human build, with PvE skills, usually wins the damage numbers. My human mesmer build with Pain Inverter dishes out more damage than my hero mesmers also. Umm... take a hero MM and bring EBSoH yourself? Does that solve the problem? Honestly every caster(minus monk healers)/ranger/paragon build should have EBSoH, its an amazing buff and it works on the whole team + minions.

That leaves melee that can't use EBSoH on minions quite that well, but MMs put out more damage than MBs even without EBSoH/OoU anyway.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder
View Post
Death Nova does... 40 DPS, under perfect conditions. Estimate under half that in realistic conditions.



If an enemy is ranged the minion can die without hitting anything. If the enemy has enough damage the minion can die before the necro is done casting (2s cast time FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU). If the minion is positioned so that it only hits one target the Death Nova is basically a waste (Deathly Swarm is as good or better). Even when it works right, mediocre damage for the time investment. I'm not a big fan of the MB, but you are badly understating its usefulness. DN is usually pre-cast on most or all minions. That's why the MB hero lags behind so much, but the minions usually begin the fight with DN on. At 16 DM you're getting 105 armor ignoring damage everytime one of the little guys blows up, not to mention poison. Throw in dwayna's sorrow and you're also getting a great source of constant, party wide healing.

The problem with the MB is not lack of damage, it's that your necro hero becoms a minion babysitter, constantly casting minion supoport or raising minions, not to mention the lagging behind problem. With the MM you can add utility or other damage which he'll actually use. I have bitter chill, deathly chill, and deathly swarm on mine, and he's always in the fight using those and his utility sttuff. It's very effective since the HM update, and the MB is less effective, but not as much less as you're saying.