Masochism - Yes or No?
Gabs88
Simply put, do you think it deserves a spot on a minion master bar? Yes or no? And why, why not?
Olle
If I feel i can take a skill out, yes, +2 SR&DM is nice.
Tess80
If your minions are supposed to stay alive (minion master), then Masochism helps making them more durable and will allow one additional minion, so I'd say it deserves a spot.
If your minions are supposed to bomb the enemy with Death Nova (minion bomber), you're cycling through minions fast enough so that the extra durability of your minions is less of an issue. It's still a decent skill to bring, but usually I have other skills I'd like to take more on these kind of bars.
If your minions are supposed to bomb the enemy with Death Nova (minion bomber), you're cycling through minions fast enough so that the extra durability of your minions is less of an issue. It's still a decent skill to bring, but usually I have other skills I'd like to take more on these kind of bars.
Avishh
Can help to reach a breakpoint, so I normally take it, but it's definitely not key and if it didn't reach a minion breakpoint I wouldn't bother.
DRGN
The extra minion, 6 energy/15 seconds from Soul Reaping, and slightly stronger Death Novas/whatever other damage skills you bring make it worthwhile to me. The extra health also makes it a bit easier to keep them alive between battles
Jeydra
The skill adds +2 to your two most important attributes. Why would you not take it?
InStars
I would take it on pure Death Magic necro, but normally I run hybrids and I use secondary profession skills instead.
Gemm
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I mostly use it, althouuuuuugh sometimes i take putrid flesh for extra pressure in areas with groups that have a healer(s), but i micro it incase a hero decides to abuse it. It's quite nice, helps with spiking down groups quickly with the extra degen.
I'd say 70% of the time i use masochism though, as people have said extra minion helps in the long run and extra energy from SR.
doomfodder
I use Masochism, but not to "compete" with other minion masters in my group
12+1+3 death magic
12+1 soul reaping
3 curses
Discord - 115 base damage without any cons or title related damage bonus
Necrosis
Enfeeble - condition feeds KD of the summon
Malign Intervention - hex to feed discord
Verata's Gaze - master the level 20 bone horror
Summon Naga Shaman
Masochism
opt slot - res, EVAS, Technobabble, rupt, ench removal,etc
12+1+3 death magic
12+1 soul reaping
3 curses
Discord - 115 base damage without any cons or title related damage bonus
Necrosis
Enfeeble - condition feeds KD of the summon
Malign Intervention - hex to feed discord
Verata's Gaze - master the level 20 bone horror
Summon Naga Shaman
Masochism
opt slot - res, EVAS, Technobabble, rupt, ench removal,etc
majoho
hunter
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Its like asking whether to take death nova on a minion bomber
Long answer: Its like asking whether to take death nova on a minion bomber
Gabs88
Jeydra
Yes. If I weren't going AFK most of the time, I'd lose Blood of the Master before Masochism as well.
Kunder
A full Masochism minion army does ~25% more damage than it would without masochism (counting the 11th minion and +2 levels to all minions). It provides ~35% more of a damage buffer, and BotM is effectively ~25-35% more powerful. It makes soul reaping ~20% more powerful (depending on your attribute allocation). I hope I don't have to explain why all of this is a good thing.
Putrid Bile is weaksauce. You have to micro it heavily to make it actually trigger reliably, and when it does its still pretty weak for a skill that can only work effectively once per battle. Would never use it, go /Mo for PS/SB/SoA, /P for SYG/FB, etc. You can find a whole lot better stuff to place on a bar than PB.
Putrid Bile is weaksauce. You have to micro it heavily to make it actually trigger reliably, and when it does its still pretty weak for a skill that can only work effectively once per battle. Would never use it, go /Mo for PS/SB/SoA, /P for SYG/FB, etc. You can find a whole lot better stuff to place on a bar than PB.
Lanier
Cathode_Reborn
I've always been kinda iffy about it.
2+ to DM is nice but the gains are extremely minor. The damage boost to regular skills is almost nothing and it's not really enough to suddenly make your minions much stronger/tankier. It might be tempting to take on a bar with AotL but in most cases, I wouldn't bother with it.
2+ to DM is nice but the gains are extremely minor. The damage boost to regular skills is almost nothing and it's not really enough to suddenly make your minions much stronger/tankier. It might be tempting to take on a bar with AotL but in most cases, I wouldn't bother with it.
Wielder Of Magic
I rarely bring it.
My MM functions fine without it, and I dislike the saccing.
energy is fine without the soul reaping boost, and 9-10 minions is more then enough for me to succeed anywhere with it when I decide to bring the MM ( not always the case).
My MM functions fine without it, and I dislike the saccing.
energy is fine without the soul reaping boost, and 9-10 minions is more then enough for me to succeed anywhere with it when I decide to bring the MM ( not always the case).
Relyk
Masochism is optimal for any build speccing into Death Magic or IV. You're not doing yourself any favors avoiding it on an MM.
Kunder
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The benefits of Masochism are huge. With the exponential gains you get from each additional point not running 18/19 death magic is just gimping yourself.
Xenomortis
Exponential? The gains of any increase in attributes are usually, at best, linear. The skill is still worth it.
Wielder Of Magic
I usually prefer another utility from a secondary profession in that slot.
I could care less about 1 more minion of ~10 more damage from a death nova.
If 10 damage is the key to succes or fail I should just redesign my entire team.
And since the MM already has godly e-managment I don't need the + 2 soul reaping either.
I could care less about 1 more minion of ~10 more damage from a death nova.
If 10 damage is the key to succes or fail I should just redesign my entire team.
And since the MM already has godly e-managment I don't need the + 2 soul reaping either.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic
I usually prefer another utility from a secondary profession in that slot.
That is fine. Your MM is not going to fail just because you don't bring Masochism.
Masochism is usually a good choice and there are not many better alternatives in most MM builds. But I wouldn't say that all possible MM builds under the sun must bring along Masochism to be optimal.
Masochism is usually a good choice and there are not many better alternatives in most MM builds. But I wouldn't say that all possible MM builds under the sun must bring along Masochism to be optimal.
Xenomortis
The damage you take with increasing armour is an example of exponential decay (that is exponential growth, just with a negative exponent). This is not logarithmic (if it were, the damage taken would increase with armour since log(x) is an increasing function and its image covers the reals (it gives both negative and positive output) so simple things like -log(x) wouldn't work either).
This is easy to see knowing the damage formula and as a result, the number of hits required to kill you is an exponential function of armour.
For clarification, an exponential function is a function of the form
f(x) = a^(bx) for some constants a,b.
They are noteworthy since their rate of change at x is proportional to f(x) (i.e. the gradient function is also exponential).
Let H be maximum health, A be armour rating, B be the incoming damage, D the effective damage after armour and N be the number of hits required to kill.
Clearly N = H / D (rounded up, but we'll ignore that)
D = B x 2^((60-A)/40) - the basic damage formula found on the wiki
Using exponent laws, we get the more clear:
D = B x 2^(60/40) x 2^(-A/40)
If I let M = B x 2^(60/40) - a constant, then D is clearly just an exponential function of armour.
D = M x 2^(-A/40)
Hence
N = H / D = H / (Mx2^(-A/40))
N = 1/M x H x 2^(A/40)
N, the number of hits required to kill a target, is an exponential function of A, the armour of the target. Durability is a function of the time and effort it takes to kill you.
This is easy to see knowing the damage formula and as a result, the number of hits required to kill you is an exponential function of armour.
For clarification, an exponential function is a function of the form
f(x) = a^(bx) for some constants a,b.
They are noteworthy since their rate of change at x is proportional to f(x) (i.e. the gradient function is also exponential).
Let H be maximum health, A be armour rating, B be the incoming damage, D the effective damage after armour and N be the number of hits required to kill.
Clearly N = H / D (rounded up, but we'll ignore that)
D = B x 2^((60-A)/40) - the basic damage formula found on the wiki
Using exponent laws, we get the more clear:
D = B x 2^(60/40) x 2^(-A/40)
If I let M = B x 2^(60/40) - a constant, then D is clearly just an exponential function of armour.
D = M x 2^(-A/40)
Hence
N = H / D = H / (Mx2^(-A/40))
N = 1/M x H x 2^(A/40)
N, the number of hits required to kill a target, is an exponential function of A, the armour of the target. Durability is a function of the time and effort it takes to kill you.
TLDR
Awien's observation is correct, but the conclusion was missed, and Kunder (still) needs to check his definition of a logarithmic function.
The raw amount of damage reduction may appear to decrease, but because it's still halved every 40 armour, armour doesn't mathematically suffer diminishing returns (until rounding errors become significant).
As for Masochism; the armour boost on Bone Minions is only +6, the health boost +40; from the bone minion's perspective, this is great, but to the player it's near inconsequential; we want that extra death nova damage and the 11th minion.
Kunder
A logarithmic function is the inverse of an exponential function. Not sure how you can argue against one and accept the other. Run numbers one way you get one, run them the other and you get the other.
As mentioned, the technical definition isn't important because we're only covering a change in X from 1.5 to 1.7. Being exponential has little to do with the increase in power at such small factors, it was merely a nice term to use to draw attention to the poorly understood fact of minion scaling.
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As for Masochism; the armour boost on Bone Minions is only +6, the health boost +40As mentioned, the technical definition isn't important because we're only covering a change in X from 1.5 to 1.7. Being exponential has little to do with the increase in power at such small factors, it was merely a nice term to use to draw attention to the poorly understood fact of minion scaling.
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In fact, at these levels (16/17 DM with Masochism taking us to 18/19), the health bonus does more than the armour boost for durability.
Talking about Bone Horrors, the armor boost is +8 for 2 levels (+15% boost to EHP). Now, at that point the +EHP from armor is approximately 1.5x the +EHP from health. EHP of lvl 18 = 541, EHP of lvl 18 + 40 HP = 590, EHP of lvl 18 + 8 armor = 622.
It should be noted though that comparing them separately is just stupid. They are multiplicative bonuses. The +armor is good because you have a lot of +health already and vice versa.
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If the enemies are balled up you have already won. Use 100 blades/VoS/Death Blossom/Splinter Weapon/MoP and do 10x as much damage as Death Nova would, and much more reliably. Casters have tons of various AoE that will deal damage more efficiently. A Panic mesmer will do well over 100 DPS while interrupting every skill/attack used. Death Nova does... 40 DPS, under perfect conditions. Estimate under half that in realistic conditions.
from the bone minion's perspective, this is great, but to the player it's near inconsequential; we want that extra death nova damage and the 11th minion.
EHP for lvl 18 vs lvl 20 is 541 vs. 678. I think +130 effective health for each minion is pretty damn substantial, don't you? At best you MIGHT hit one or two enemies with Death Nova during a battle, and it's only a pathetic +10 damage each. 11th minion only gives a +10% improvement to EHP, while the level boost gave all minions +25% EHP. 11th minions also adds +10% damage which is approximately the damage increase that all other minions get from +2 levels. Still a nice gain but not better than +levels. But in any case, you get all of these. That's why not putting Masochism on your bar is one of the dumbest moves you can make. +25% minion EHP, +10% minion damage, +10% minions, +skill effects, +soul reaping. It's pretty much a second elite skill when you add it all together. Xenomortis
Who the hell uses bone horrors and fiends on a hero? Unless the meta has suddenly switched from Minions+Nova, then Horrors and Fiends are hardly relevant. Although I put in +5 armour into my calculator, not 6 armour, so yeah, the +6 armour is slightly better than the 10% boost in health. An 11th minion is also not equivalent to a 10% increase in health across 10 minions in anything but the most simple and unhelpful model.
And it's pretty damn rare for humans to run a minion bar; if they are then Masochism is definitely superior to pretty much anything else that could be shoved onto the bar for the given reasons (and more). And f(x)= a*2^(-x/b) isn't logarithmic, it's exponential. You do know there is a difference between log(x) and e^(-x) right? Or more generally, between reciprocal and inverse? Kunder
We're talking about MMs here. MBs are worse builds, don't run them.
Keep in mind that if both armor and health boost +10% then together they boost +21%, so the total EHP of your minions is boosted more by the +levels than the +minion. Of course all 3 are boosted, the total for a bone horror force is nearly +40% EHP. As I mentioned, Masochism also boosts your minion damage by +10% which is equivalent to the +10% damage of an extra minion. Beyond that its hard to quantify whether the benefits of the extra minion (more soul reaping/body blocking/targets) are more important than the drawbacks of an extra minion (increased weakness to AoE/increased sac from BotM/less individual HP). I'll certainly agree that an additional minion is more important when running EBSoH/OoU though. Quote:
And f(x)= a*2^(-x/b) isn't logarithmic, it's exponential. You do know there is a difference between log(x) and e^(-x) right? Or more generally, between reciprocal and inverse?
I never said it was. But any exponential function can be inverted if you want to work backwards to find the armor from the damage. |
EDIT: Whoops, I mixed up terms in post 39. Disregard what I said then if that is what you are referring to. Kunder
Death Nova is vastly overrated, sadly. At the moment its only real usage is to pre-buff all your minions before battle, which does lead to a very impressive amount of damage. Unfortunately taking 30s to do that before every battle is a complete and utter waste of time unless it's a boss battle or something.
Adjacent AoE that relies on Minion AI to land in the right place is just a horrible concept to base a build around. It needs to be at least Nearby AoE to deserve the power people attribute to it. That way it can at least hit whatever the minion is chasing after. (Not that Minion Bombers need a buff, minion spam is always imba whether its MM or MB.) Relyk
Any frontliner can easily get enemies balled on a minion wall to get hit by death nova. I'm not sure about casters but EVAS would give the same control.
Kunder
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Any frontliner can easily get enemies balled on a minion wall to get hit by death nova. I'm not sure about casters but EVAS would give the same control.
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Unfortunately a minion bomber is the only MM build that the hero AI is able to play out effectively. A human MM with PvE skills like EBSoH is expected to exceed their damage but unless you play a MM yourself, you can't always have a MM with you. You cannot compare a human build with PvE skills against a hero build without one. This is true for the other builds besides MM. The human build, with PvE skills, usually wins the damage numbers. My human mesmer build with Pain Inverter dishes out more damage than my hero mesmers also. Umm... take a hero MM and bring EBSoH yourself? Does that solve the problem? Honestly every caster(minus monk healers)/ranger/paragon build should have EBSoH, its an amazing buff and it works on the whole team + minions. That leaves melee that can't use EBSoH on minions quite that well, but MMs put out more damage than MBs even without EBSoH/OoU anyway. |