GW1 survival and PvP

The way I see it the only chance of GW1 surviving long term is if GW1 generates enough $$$$. Whether by existing players spending enough $$$, or by new players buying the game.

The thing is creating new good PvE content usually costs money, whereas PvP players can play the same thing over and over again - just look at the people playing Starcraft, and other games.

And I actually think GW1 PVP still has a lot of untapped potential - the actual game mechanics are decent, but the human aspects are being handled poorly.

If you had different divisions (like in sports - racing, soccer, boxing etc, or even other games ), then more noob players would be able to learn about PvP more easily at the low-rank divisions, or even unranked divisions rather than:
a) Not getting into a group to actually start learning because "nobody wants noobs"
b) Getting in after 10-20 minutes of waiting and getting wiped/farmed in seconds by some elite guild (happens even in "random PvP" due to sync-ing), and being flamed and blamed for the loss. Can't really learn much from that except to not play PvP.

And so you get fewer PvP players.

FWIW even games like "Tetris Battle" don't let world class tetris players farm the beginner players - players can only challenge players if the difference in their rank/level is not too great and there's also a handicapping system (no point in GW - given the sort of gimmick builds one can come up with...).

Might be too late for GW1 but maybe they can do it for GW2 - it's easier to divide thousands of excited players into X divisions than near-zero players into X divisions .

One should still allow a great difference in rank for GvG if both parties consent - that allows guilds to teach and learn. Whereas for more automated PvP battles, the noobs should be in a different league from the Champions.

I suppose some formats will still need to allow "random" players. I believe FA could get very unbalanced if the randomness goes away.

ANet abandoned pvp years ago to focus solely on pve and any additional support for the former is less likely than not getting bots in JQ. WvW in GW2 is their way of trying to appease and link the two sides, how successful it is at that is to be seen.

Back in the day, what you are hoping to exist within PvP - did exist in PvP.

The guild ladder was VERY active and you almost always fought people close to your rank or rating.

Unfortunately ladder doesn't mean anything anymore (barely) - so the reason to play and farm ladder has dissappeared along with the players.

The ladder would have to have more of an incentive than it does right now (emote - winning a tiebreaker - obs mode) to even attempt to fix that portion.

Back then top 16 on the ladder had you compete for trim and ultimately GWWC's.

Those existed in TA and HA, not so much in gvg. GvG was pretty good back in the day, but with lost of interest from anet in balancing skills correctly, and a strong inbalance of skills in different formats of PvP. GW1 pvp was handled really badly from the start of introduction of new skills.

Lol@ smiting in TA.

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall different divisions/leagues existing in TA. As far as I know a random bunch of noobs from RA that somehow survived 10 battles could go smack into an elite TA team with a well-planned team build. Same goes for a team of noobs starting in TA.

There was some sort of player battle ranking in Hero Battles. But I think not enough players were interested in Hero Battles.

As for HA I think back then there was a minimum requirement in order to play it (win TA 5 times?), so I never really bothered - if TA was just a bunch of fussy elitist teams farming noobs from RA, you won't get many new players into HA. And that was my impression.

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There are plenty of people playing Counterstrike, Starcraft, tennis, chess, etc every day because they find it fun. No need for any other incentive.

If you need people to pay/give you stuff to play something or else you won't play it, then the game can't really be that fun right?

But I'm sure those playing tennis won't find it fun if:
a) it takes ages just to get started
b) once you get started you get trashed within a minute by champions.
c) the people call them noobs and tell them to stick to PvE instead (yeah I've actually seen people do that!).

I do find FA and JQ fun enough to play quite often, but Anet isn't doing enough about leechers. It's kinda daft to win/lose just because the one side has more leechers and leavers- what sort of "playing a game" is that? I'm sure it'll discourage leechers more if Anet made the penalty for _persistent_ leeching be a demotion in title track rank or deduction of faction or something similar.

Your argument would be valid here if it weren't for the fact that the games you listed are all primarily single player games. (Except counterstrike - However that is a puggable game - you can't just throw 8 random players in a format and tell them to play a GvG match.)

It takes a lot of effort these days to get the 7 other players to want to play towards a collective goal when there really is no prize except the hope you will do well one day a month.

Yeah starcraft is soo single player

GW2 has a good ranking system I believe.

GW1 pvp is dead unless they start balancing more and get off pve's wiener.

Starcraft competitively is single player. I really don't feel the need to go in depth on that if you are familiar with the discussion this thread is about.

Exactly. People in TA wanted a ranking system, but what you mentioned as (a) and (b) was how it was. TA could have been a great format, there was a lot of dedicated players and even TA guilds. But it was never developed to its full ability, and so what we have today is the result. Also skills were in unbalanced for PvP 4 man vs PvP 8 man. Smiting was maent to get an overhall and anet was going to come back later to fix it - yet they decided not to.

1) It is true that multiple player teams makes it harder. But "random" people do play football, teamfortress and other team games regularly for fun. No prize needed.
2) Is GW PvP fun enough? You do still find GvG fun right? (BTW congrats on the 2nd place! At one point I did think your team would have beaten oG, but your away split died). Fun enough to do without a reward?
3) So why can't 8 "random" players play GvG matches for fun? They are unlikely to be competitive, however that does not necessarily mean they can't have fun. OK some guilds are doing it already in scrimmages, but are there really many people doing that for fun? There seems to be some sort of barrier right? There may be 16 (or more) people wanting to GvG just for fun at a particular moment, but there seems no easy way for them to actually start. They all need to be in the same active guild, or somehow find each other, etc. Might feel more like work than play... So maybe since the cost is so high (in time and effort) it's not relaxed, there is more pressure so players must run the meta builds of the month and not just be silly and have fun? (taking the playfulness out of play).
4) People do seem to manage to get other human players in PvE. But there's some sort of in-game reward, so maybe that doesn't count?

You are entirely right, the problem here is that they didn't care about PvP and hardly will do at this state of the game...

On big lines, removing hero battles and full heroes parties from PvP did hurt a lot, since it was quite a big part of the activity and the game was already dying..
That's basically the same as if you made counter strike maps require 8 players, else the game won't start. The success would clearly not be the same at all..

Let's face it, there is rarely any activity in organized formats. Typically, HA today relies on having one team ready to waste hours , in order to reach halls and trigger one hall match. Then, you need to pray for that team to not rage, else the activity will decrease for next hours...

I argued about it, the only way they can do anything for after GW2 release is to either bring back hero battles, or to allow henchs parties in PvP. At least, there will be some activity between some players at anytime. Else, it will surely die..

Yes you are correct - Yet for the most part - You don't have very many skilled GvG guilds that are there purely because it is "fun". The fun often is a result of the shared comradery and success your guild has (not to mention the fact you've grown in the PvP community with these guys). I made zQ a year ago (it was a mentor program with people who never gvg'd before). After some short lived success (top 8 stuff) - I took a hiatus. The players separated and worked on their individual skill and improved tremendously, but all desired to have that "zQ-ness" again. Naturally I will stick with these guys because we have a blast playing. When we hit a losing streak with trying something new - the morale definitely takes its toll.

Everybody has their own reason for playing competitively. Obtaining a gold trim is the only thing I have not accomplished in this game. Max titles, high HA ranks, holding, significant wins in any arena, PvE elite areas, Pre-searing. 2nd place is one spot away from finishing it all. Even after I win I plan to continue playing. As far as people who have won gold? Most do quit, some don't - There are a lot of those players that I question who don't quit and the drastic effect it has on their personal lives and from what I've heard about their lack of success IRL (that is getting a little personal though :P).

The lack of many teams in GvG makes running "fun" builds not as viable. As the ones who remain would like to win - and running meta is usually the best way to do so. There are not enough skilled innovative players that aren't already in a guild to form something unique and be successful with it.

PvE is different. Computers are reliable and predictable. Rinse, wash, and repeat. You don't have that in PvP (well you can once you are skilled enough and can read your opponent like a book from experience). Not to mention in PvE I personally feel it is a bit more mindless and the important rolls rest on a few rather than a group of 8.

I hope I anwered most of what you were inquiring about.

To be fair, i dont think that many players quit directly as a result of winning a goldcape. I have one, albeit from slightly fortuitous circustamces, regardless until I had it i always wanted one, then once i had it, and i think this applies to a lot of other ppl too, you realise that you dont care, it doesnt matter or change anything, and even though you thought u wanted a goldcape all this time, u do in fact just play for the love of the game. Not for any silly reward.

I've given up playing in the more competitive scene, because these teams rarely play anymore. I dont care enough about goldtrims to motivate myself to just play 3 AT's per month and the mat, i mean seriously what is the point in this?? You either enjoy the game and play it, or u dont and quit. Why people feel the need to sit in limbo halfway between the 2 amazes me.

Ultimately though, yes the game is dead, but even so, ive found that I'm enjoying myself much more by playing with a group of more active, chilled out guys at a lower rank. Theres no rage, no drama, and theres a real sense of accomplishment when we win. Whereas before I just felt that any loss was the end of the world, and any win was simply expected, not a success. On reflection it was a pretty sad position to be in. By dropping down the ladder a bit, and playing for "fun", rather than solely to "win" (although dont get me wrong, i still try and win, i just dont get upset if we lose ;p ) has rekindled my enjoyment for the game, and im honestly enjoying myself more in the last 2 months than I have done in the last 2 years.

A lot of players quit I feel because they cant win, rather than the fact that they do win. Which is a shame, because if u change ur priorities when playing the game, and just enjoy urself on teamspeak with a fun group of guys and girls, then gw can still be a blast. When building my current guild, i based it around activity, rather than player skill. Not having multiple ppl offline 24/7 and having to find guests has made it so much easier to play the game i love. So many people try and make guilds with the very best players available, these players never log on, and the guild disbands. Its pretty stupid really.

People's ego's got too big, and winning became an obsession. Such a shame.

he gets it he gets it!

huh, here I was aspiring to do PvP and it's already dead ended. oh well.

I am still dreaming of a RA style GvG. It was my dream since 2005.

I already love PvP in GW2 more than I do in this game. Partly because it is new and fresh, but mostly because it feels more alive and active and sharp. This game(GW1) is one of my favorite games of all time. I have played it longer and more often than any other title I can remember on a regular basis. ArenaNet have crafted something in GW2 that goes way beyond what is here. It feels more refined for lack of a better term. Hopefully, more care will be given to counter some of the pitfalls that ArenaNet has to go through with a community that strives to game the system by botting/smurfing/cheating/and generally treating others like garbage and being elitist. I know it is idealistic of me to want other players to conform to the spirit of the game that ANet has in mind for GW2, but really, wouldn't we all have a better time if the Guru community extends its hand and does what it has tried to do with helping players learn how to play GW2 like they did with GW1? Hopefully it ends a little less bitterly than GW1's PvP did.

GW2 PvP takes everything that made GW1 PvP unique and perfect and puts it in a little trash bag in the alley to be picked up the next morning.

*deleted the need for 8 man teams because developers couldn't get 7 other friends to play with them

*deleted any decent tactics in long matches because - quite frankly - that actually took some skill and 15 minute cluster fks are a better solution to that (sarcasm)

*made a deformed love child between RA and costume brawls when neither are the same PvP style that GW1 prided itself on

If you love the current GW2 PvP then you are a casual gamer and you won't understand the significance and feeling GvG had.

No better way to say it, I got nothing to add.

The problem was many couldn't get the skillful team to be decently successful at GvG. One kink in the chain anywhere and you will get steamrolled back to the GH. Most people that bought the game were expecting guild battles to be fun(it is a game after all) but instead got a cold dish of epeen competitiveness because all the players not interested in turning GWs pvp into a job went elsewhere to game for fun.

Many new players were not allowed to acquire skillful team play by players and the pvp system itself. Both can be very unforgiving. Then there is the problem with ping, a team with a 16ms pblock mesmer always wins. Is it unfair? No, but the GWs system and pvp community are very unforgiving to newcomers.

The pride you speak of died when NF came out. There wouldn't be much direction for GWs pvp to go. They went with more skills and Guild halls with expansions but any other way would have been just as disastrous because GWs design doesn't take any new content well. If they went another way you would probably be complaining that they never gave pvp any more skills.

Organized pvp may as well be costume brawls. 90% of pvpers run the same few skills that are part of the current meta

BS. Many enjoy both casual and hardcore pvp. I thoroughly enjoyed pvp before NF but given the direction the game took and time restraints that soon followed for me it was time to retire.

The only real significance it has is that it is a flawed system that cannot be sustained for long and if Anet made the drastic changes that were needed to make it more populated I bet my bottom dollar every hardcore pvper would have bitched to no end. Instead they left it alone and gave you time in the sun, now its time for people that want to pvp and relax.

I hope they add some sort of "gw 1 pvp" competetive area where the game modes from gw1 along with something new and fresh would be up for playing.
The pvp in gw2 (pug) has been quite chaotic and not "set to stone" like esport games such as counter strike and guild wars 1 are.

It's not as simple as that.
And you saying "if you disagree with me you know nothing" won't make you right.

- The more people is there in a battle, the less important each one is.
1/5 is bigger than 1/8, and so 1-1/5 is smaller than 1-1/8. And so removing 1 from 5 makes a bigger impact than removing 1 from 8.
That is pure, undeniable mathematics.
They probably tested several numbers with the size of the current conquest maps, and found that 5 was the best one for that format.

- The chaos you've seen in PvP derives from the young age of the game. Not everyone gets the 'feel' of the game as fast, so many tend to just pitch in and spam stuff to see if something happens, just like in the first days of many other games.
That doesn't mean that using skills with more wisdom won't work better, from what I've seen in the beta, those that just spam won't do as well as those that use their heads, position themselves, look around, time properly their actions, work together and go for combos. Some are even able to solo the 50-point bosses, while others would not be able to do that in ages.
So there's certainly levels of skill involved.

- There's also skill balance to do. The game will not be released exactly as it's in the betas. Well, I suppose any changes they make won't make you change your opinion, anyways.
But it's not like they won't add more arenas and more victory formats. The thing about MMOs is that they are often everchanging.
The PvP we've seen is just the random matches, and WvW isn't really PvP. We are yet to see the Tournaments.
Too many modes spread the playerbase, but too few modes and maps become boring and repetitive after some time.

- GW2 is not GW1 HD. Diablo III is not Diablo II HD. Counter Strike:GO is not Counter Strike 1.6 HD.
Some people can't wrap their heads about that for some reason.
Not giving them a try - an actual try - is a mistake.
I've seen in every sequel game people complaining about things that change. Well, excepting Final Fantasy. Complaining about mechanic changes in a Final Fantasy would be one of the most absurd things one could do, since it has happened so much that it has been accepted already.
When people complain about changes between titles, sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, and sometimes it's just a matter of taste.
When players present feedback properly and ANet thinks that they are right, they often make changes if they have time and resources for it, unless it's a core mechanic they won't or can't part with. And when it's a matter of taste, well, then it's about building support from the community and having patience.

- There's the delusion of calling 'casual' a game that is comfortable to play without unnecessarily obscure mechanics.
Well, here's the thing. There's no "casual games". There's only casual players.
Even if a game is designed to favor casual play, one can become a hardcore player of it.
I bet there's a Connect Four world championship, for Grenth's sake.
Without making things too complex, you ensure that people that enter PvP for the first time won't meet a quick end. Even if they do get killed, they will at least do something. You often get this in well-balanced FPSs. No matter how good you are, if the game is well balanced, you are always at risk of losing.
This means than instead having ragequitters because one noob has a horrible build, or people that leaves PvP frustrated for not being able to do well with the random builds they'll come up with, the noob at least can play noobishly and do something. If they just spam combo fields, you can at least use them to your advantage. If they just waste their time doing little damage, at least you an go behind the enemy at attack for more damage while they are distracted.
The less frustrated people leaving PvP and never coming back, and the less people that hate newbies, the more fun everyone has, and the more fresh meat for those that favor PvP and manage to get really good at it, without them being too easy to defeat, so things like 'farming RA' are no longer something that anyone can say.

There can be a high skill ceiling without making the 'floor' too low.
You don't need 'noobs' to have 'pros'.

The immense number of skills combinations you have in GW1, compared with the small number of viable skill combinations is one of the biggest noob traps I've ever seen in any game. We've all seen ridiculously bad builds unknowingly being used in PvP, and the horrible responses they get from other players in both their team and the opposing team.
Those things don't make you better, they only make others worse.
You don't have to purposefully add 'noob traps' mechanics for new players to fall in them so other players can be better. If you need to have that kind of stuff to be better than others, then you are not that good in the first place. Making builds might not be as fun when there's less diverse combinations, but at least there's more viable combinations to use.

1. This isn't a GW2 PvP design thread. Take it to guru2.

2. Is this post supposed to be serious?

Join Date: Sep 2010 - This may or may not be your join date for the game itself, I just thought if it was close to it, it may have some relavance to your ideas.

When this game was in its active stage, no matter how bad you might have been, there was always ways for people to get others to play. Decently successful? That is a team chemistry quality that comes with hard work, dedication, and a group of people you eventually find with the same mindset. The third is often a result of the first two.

That dish you were served that ended being "cold" was because that "food" had been sitting out for 5 years.



See above post. This game is very inactive and newcomers barely in exist on the ladder. Interupts weren't always meta back in the day. Check EvIL/WM builds. Even still, ping is an advantage, but it is easy to rip apart a team with interupts and a server advantage if you play right.



NF helped contribute to the mass exodus of GW. Yes, that is well known.

No, and please don't make anymore poor and inaccurate assumptions.


My statement "If you love the current GW2 PvP then you are a casual gamer and you won't understand the significance and feeling GvG had." was based on the pretense that the person I was speaking to did not like GW1 PvP and loved GW2 PvP. Please pay attention to the discussion at hand before jumping in head first and hitting your head on the wall.