Looking for feedback on a Paragon build...

manamana

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2007

...yes I realise nobody has posted in the Paragon forum for the better part of a year. It's called over-optimism

Anyway I am looking for some feedback on my Paragon build. I generally play with heroes, using this party build:

http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Tea...Player_Support

with a smite monk as my seventh hero.

Build is as follows:

Spear: 10+1
Command: 10
Motivation: 0
Leadership: 11+1

Spear of Fury (r4)
Go for the eyes
There's nothing to fear (max rank)
Fall back
Signet of aggression
Cruel Spear
Pain inverter (r9)
(optional) We shall return!, switched out to signet of capture when skill capping

Weapons are r9 spear with max strength & honour and cruel spearhead (+deep wound) and r9 command shield with +health and a currently empty inscription slot

The idea with this build is to build adrenaline with Fury/Signet to regain energy with GftE in order to keep Nothing to Fear up as much as possible and keep pain inverter on bosses/hard hitters

It usually works well and I don't feel like I'm being carried by my heroes (though obviously it doesn't get me very far in solo missions, but I use other builds for those anyway) but I want to get opinions as to how I can improve, what scrip I should slap on my shield, etc

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Players tend to play as damage when with heroes since they can run builds heroes can't. Your build looks like a bunch of random stuff thrown together. You'll see no support from me for Pain Inverter.

You could run a dagger build with Strength of Honor on your smite monk.

Cruel spearhead seems pretty useless. Foes should be dead.

Tonywisconsin also gave decent advice in your Reddit post.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

If you're bringing Pain Inverter because you're having a hard time with a specific foe...something is wrong. And it promotes bad playing since it doesn't have good synergy with play that keeps players alive in a more offensive way like knock-downs, conditions, and interrupts. Could base a build around sustainable damage that doesn't care if the foe is an elementalist.

MaxBorken

MaxBorken

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2009

London UK

Teh Academy [PhD]. Officer. Gentleman

W/N

Oh dear oh dear.

Cast it on an ele, and watch him kill himself in an instant. One hit.

*sigh*

Also, you clearly have never defeated Dhuum... The only way to kill him quickly is pain inverter, and if you'd played as spiker, the damage on your screen when he winds up Judgement of Dhuum says
80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80-80.....
In one hit. Big yellow numbers all over your screen.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

He hasn't made any replies, so it doesn't matter.

Hitting foes with other skills takes out foes. I don't see how that's an argument that the skill is good. You also seem to think the skill works well based on profession, not their build.

MaxBorken

MaxBorken

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2009

London UK

Teh Academy [PhD]. Officer. Gentleman

W/N

No, it's about how much damage that foe can do. Obviously it needs to damage something for that damage to be inverted. The foes build doesn't really matter, as long as it can do damage. More damage = more inverted. It's not rocket science. You'd have to be monumentally stupid to cast PI on a healing monk
The OP is after general builds or comments. PI is a good utility damage spell, you just have to cast it on a high damage dealer. Again, not rocket science.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

So again why bring PI if you are using it for select foes and if it conflicts with good skills?

MaxBorken

MaxBorken

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2009

London UK

Teh Academy [PhD]. Officer. Gentleman

W/N

Not for select foes, genius. And I never said that.

At 10 energy cost, it can do massive damage, making it one of the most efficient general damage skills.

Why do you keep missing the point? You do it a lot. I find myself explaining very obvious things to you a lot recently. Are you deliberately looking for arguments?

I think I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on.

Max

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

How does it do damage to a foe that is knocked down or already dead?

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

You're the one pushing for a reactive skill.

MaxBorken

MaxBorken

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2009

London UK

Teh Academy [PhD]. Officer. Gentleman

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
You're the one pushing for a reactive skill. Not really. The OP has it in his build, I said don't underestimate it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Obviously, it's effectiveness depends on the rest of the build, genius. Go back and read it again.

I give up.

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Yes, its effectiveness is strong with bad builds and low expectations.

MaxBorken

MaxBorken

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2009

London UK

Teh Academy [PhD]. Officer. Gentleman

W/N

Yes, I was expecting you to say something dumb.
PI is a hex.
Use it with hex-exploiting team builds, and its effectiveness is increased, and nothing lasts long.

Put it in a random build of non-related skills and you're a noob.

This conversation is over as you obviously are too narrow-minded to appreciate how other skills complement themselves.

We're done here, I haven't got the patience to deal with narrow-mindedness.

Max

Cuilan

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

Could just pick some other hex and the "team build" likely already has hexes. Making a team around killing a foe with a reactive hex makes it worse.

Coast

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

I would drop signet for Agressive Refrain and put For Great Justice in the build also.
This will give u more dmg output and u will still be able to spam go for the eyes/cruel spear.

expugnare

expugnare

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Houston, TX

The Academy [PhD]

E/A

There is nothing that build does that a standard "Imbagon" build with deep wound via Vicious Attack doesn't do, since you already have Go For the Eyes. Save Yourselves is WAY too good to overlook, especially with a low damage and high utility main like a Paragon.
In my opinion, for optimal gameplay:
1) Replace Pain Inverter with Save Yourselves.
2) Replace Cruel Spear with Soldier's Fury or Focused Anger
3) Replace Signet of Agression with Save Yourselves

The rest just play around to your preference. Lots of options exist.

If you really like cruel spear though, then you can keep it. If you insist on Cruel Spear, I would put in Enduring Harmony, For Great Justice and replace PI once again with Save Yourselves (as you will be looking to optimize adrenaline usage).

Culian is right in the sense that PI is only good if you have bad positioning / ineffective damage denial. It's always more effective to kill a target or use offensive crowd control in a game like Guild Wars. Reactive hexing promotes bad positioning, bad team composition and low hero micromanagement.

That being said, for the vast majority of players, something like PI is great. Most people can't be concerned with perfect micro or hero positioning, and from what is seems from OP, PI would probably work fine. Moreover, PI is a very effective situational damage source. Let's say you have an AOTL MM, with 11 level 21 bonehorrors, and they tank a big chunk of damage from some single source: Pain Inverter on that target can be an insant spike mechanism. For example, in HM Frostmaw's Burrows, you can utilize Pain Inverter to instakill otherwise very durable Frost Wurms who are more than glad to cast Wurm Bile on your Norn Allies or your numerous Minions, drastically decreasing the time that dungeon takes.

@Culian: As Max was saying, close-mindedness (perhaps justified in this case) and elitism (which is fairly obvious from your post about "Players and Their Bad Builds") are not really appreciated by people at large. Even though you might be right, you're better off explaining your point via sound logic rather than bashing people.

@Max: Take a look at Moloch's old thread about reactive hexing: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10365003.html
It's a bit outdated by now (this was back then Spiteful Spirit was considered the best Necromancer Elite) but its core point is still extremely valid. Pain Inverter is perhaps the most egregious of any reactive hex because it actually *requires* your team to take damage. The best of reactive hexes is probably Ineptitude, Wandering Eye and Clumsiness, as they provide powerful AoE Damage with complete mitigation as well. That being said PI has its uses, Frostmaw's, for example, or killing Varesh in Ruins of Morah, but generally if you want to promote more proactive game-play, its best to avoid reactive hexes.

I leave you all with a final quote by Moloch Vein:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein View Post
Reactive hexing doesn't suck for most people, because most people aren't good enough players. They lack the skills, the templates and the team coordination required to score fast kills against challenging content. Their fellow players aren't viewed as their greatest assets; the stupid enemies are. This will only take you so far.
Regards,

Yuko

manamana

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Apr 2007

Hi guys

thanks to those who offered advice. I've tried switching out cruel speak for soldier's fury and going with vicious spear for dw, and it's working well. Next time I log on I might try popping save yourselves into the there instead of either WSR or PI, depending on the situation. or even just switch it out with fall back, since i really only use that for mobility/speed boost.

thanks