What's with drop allocations?

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

And so it was.. on an earlier "Oro" run 3 greens dropped successively for our tank.

Needless to say, everyone else was very demoralised, and our MM just left the game. The minions murdered the SS, who left shortly after.. and our healer just concluded her stay with a "bye", and lastly there is no reason for me to stay on isn't it...

This is so ridiculous, how the hell can 3 good drops possibly end up going to one person? It is random and all, but hey, even at 20%, that is 0.20 * 0.20 * 0.20 which is 0.8%. Something really needs to be done to ensure that everyone will have a turn and not just some lucked out bozo.

Diablo???

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

I'm sure that warrior is having such a delightful time..., but seriously, for drops to be both "random" and "fair" at the same time is an oxymoron, i doubt theres any real solutions for this.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

Who's to say he never had nything good drop for him?

It's like winning the lotto twice, so people just are that darned "lucky".

BTW I consider it probability not luck. (Especially since it is algorithms).

Ultimate Warrior

Ultimate Warrior

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Canada

LS

W/Mo

I actually think that the drops are sort of based on your usefulness or how much damage you contribute. This is just my logic, but it seems like I get alot better/more drops on my warrior than on my ranger.

Ice Goddess

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

Army of Apocalypse

N/Me

my monk seems to get better drops when she just does *not* attack, just keeps her enchants going (shes a bonder)...

the first run today i got three drops in a row...

im really tempted to say its alot more than chance...

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Goddess
my monk seems to get better drops when she just does *not* attack, just keeps her enchants going (shes a bonder)...

the first run today i got three drops in a row...

im really tempted to say its alot more than chance...
I suspect so too... Come on Anet!

http://www.opensourcedrops.org!

{IceFire}

{IceFire}

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

W/

how would you do this? most dmg=screw the monks

most heals=screw the dmg dealers

final strike=wow this would get RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up

MMSDome

MMSDome

Raged Out

Join Date: Sep 2005

i hope that A-Net is workjing doing that somehow on purpose so people stop Oro Farming and FA farming and learn to make money the real way instead of cheapishly doing it over and over again. Props to the guy who got all 3.

Markaedw

Markaedw

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

N/

It could be who does the most damage or the killing stroke, my guild was doing the northen wall with our new guy, 3 lvl 2os and the lvl 9, we were getting most of the stuff, especially when we stayed behind to kill the charr army.

Konrow

Konrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

NY, New York

Warlords of Earth [WAR]

my warrior did fort ranik not too long ago and for some reason i was the only one that got charr carvings. barely ever did i get something else. i got about 40 carvings from one mission while my party-mates got the rest. it was pretty weird

Kula

Kula

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

West Coast, USA

Mo/E

I also seem to get better drops when just before a boss dies, I stand up, turn around 3 times, and then yelp like Michael Jackson.

Seriously, the same thing has happened to my monk once, where she has gotten 3 drops in a row in an FA run. But if it makes you feel better, they were sh**ty drops.

Lord Iowerth

Lord Iowerth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Atlanta, GA (#guildwarsguru FTW!)

Biscuit Of Dewm [MEEP]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabloâ„¢
I'm sure that warrior is having such a delightful time..., but seriously, for drops to be both "random" and "fair" at the same time is an oxymoron, i doubt theres any real solutions for this.
Quoted for truth.

The whole problem lies in this: how should the game determine "fair"? Something that is worthless to me might be priceless to you, and vice versa. Value is something that only you yourself can put on an item. I, for one, see no need in having a "perfect" weapon; 13% or 14% is fine with me ... while some people insist that the extra 1 or 2 percent is the difference between a 10k item and a 100k item.

Then again, the general public determines the selling price. Hey, a green water-magic focus = not so much. Drago's Flatbow? Yay i'm rich!

I'm a firm believer that you will get the same amount of items as anyone else, given that you make the run more than just a time or two. How many trapping groups have I brought to the UW and I didn't get an ecto? Plenty of times. How many times did I get one? Plenty of times.

... Just my two cents, carry on

Illusion

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where do you live?

Elite Mercenary Legion

eh i dont bother i got 4 ectos in UW and no 1 else got ne and all i did was attack i think its chance but then again there mayb a certain system they use to determin the drops.

Evil Hypnotist

Evil Hypnotist

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

I Dragon I [PAIN]

I tend to compare getting green drops to waiting for a bus, you wait for ages then 3 come at once. I have luckily been in the same situation as the warrior Generik mentioned, getting four greens in one run and invoking many flames about how I must be using bots and stealing (!) everyones rightful drop. Of course you cant prove anything to people but I know for a fact that I had farmed SF dozens of times and got absolutley nothing.

With the first 3 I got I felt I had paid my dues and deserved them, although by the 4th I was feeling a little embarrassed and guilty. I just ended up apologising for my good luck on this particular run. Of course I then didnt get another for a long time after that. Unfortunately the law of averages works like that sometimes, its no-ones fault, its just the way the game can be.

Raxxman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

TEOC

W/N

TBH if I'd got 3 drops like I'd 'share da love', but thats just me, and I usually group with friends who'd do the same for me. (one gave me gronards shield)

Angel Develin

Angel Develin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Lions Arch

Minions of Kronos

N/Me

we all know that green items are not that special, they have good modes, but hey u can get a collectors item and add 2 good modes and u have the same item but not in green . I think that for every full group there must be at least 3 drop on each boss and all 3 must be green, its more then fare that ppl who do the missions at least get 1 green item in surrow. I have done allmost all the missions and no green item for me. that realy sucks, but as farmer I have got some and that does not make it better for the players. maybe Anet should change this and let the drops fall for the characters primery pro ( a monk get at least 1 monk item/ warrior a warrior item and so on. this could help the trade system on green items, I think.

Shanaeri Rynale

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

The drop system is actually pretty fair if you take a high level view of it. To the individual player it may suck but when taking into the account the game objectives it's kinda fair.

There are a few people who know how the drop system works, but are wisely keeping it to themselves, as being able to pretty much ensure you always get good drops would be economic dynamite on a scale not seen since the start of the invinci monks.

What is'nt right is that 1 player gets as much loot allocated as all 8 or that ecto/shards are easily farmable(should be quest related imho)

Maxiemonster

Maxiemonster

There is no spoon.

Join Date: Jun 2005

Netherlands

Mo/

It's f*cking random!

Don't say ANet is making drops unfair, it's not true!

sirelricthemad

sirelricthemad

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Grotto

Crusaders of Valhalla [Odin]

Mo/N

Its random. Deal with it. It's nothing to do with who heals the most, who attacks the most etc. The only reason I've had more green drops on my monk is because its easier for me to find a group with her than with my tank.

Repeat after me.

There is no trick to having greens drop for you.

striderkaaru

striderkaaru

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer

W/

i think there's something that people need to understand about computer programs and the random number generator.

it's true that drops and such have no criteria and are "random." however, this isn't truly as random as people think. computers are incapable of true randomness, and even the random number generator is based off of a calculation. these calculations use what is called a "seed." most use an ever changing seed, such as system time, in order to simulate randomness. it is only a simulation of randomness, and thus, there are chances of it being not so random. this is just the way computer programs work, and you can't do anything about it.

with that said, people complain about fairness. you could suggest implementing something which allocates things fairly. however, someone mentioned earlier that some greens are worth more than others. everyone in a group could get the same number of greens, but someone will always b*tch about how one person is getting all of the "good" ones.

the fact of the matter is, if you don't have a better solution to way the drops work, know your role and shut your mouth. when you take the time to farm an area, you know that drops are "random." thus, you know that drops are not guaranteed and yet, you still invest the time. it is a gamble that you make with your time, you may come out with something, and you may not. you know that, but you still take the chance.

anet has been doing a great job with this no monthly fee game.
quit your whining and play it.

Shanaeri Rynale

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

The drop system has been carefully thought out and implemented. It's not the result of a computer generated random number.

Anyway, the above poster is right. Play for fun, not drops.

Tarkin

Tarkin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

W/N

Quiters must dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eee
No good drops to quiters quiters must dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Quiters suks quiters must dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Fantus

Fantus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSDome
i hope that A-Net is workjing doing that somehow on purpose so people stop Oro Farming and FA farming and learn to make money the real way instead of cheapishly doing it over and over again. Props to the guy who got all 3.
What's the "real" way, then? Become a trader and screw new players by selling them overpriced items?

Lexar

Lexar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Organised Spam

W/

Btw, when you just sit around at the start of a mission and don't get involved with anything at all, you don't get drops.

I sort of suspect that you need to be involved in the fight with the small group of enemies to get a drop. As anyone who has ever pulled a mob will acknowledge, mobs are usually small groups of 3-6 enemies that probably work together like the player parties. If you are involved with either one of them, you are considered for a drop.

Involvement can be anything, really, being hexed, conditioned, damaged, but also supporting characters who are interacting with the enemies, or attacking the enemies. If you do that, even once, you can get a drop from any enemy in that group.

I think, once you are considered for a drop in a group, you are 'randomly' picked. But you need some form of basic involvement to the fight. It doesn't have to be damage, it can be anything. You could target the enemy and run to it, and never even use a skill or attack, if it got killed before you got there

Anyway, I suspect it works like that, in any way, it's the impression I have gotten from playing. If it's not like this, it should be like this at any rate Of course other factors are involved too, like for example, if you have been in a certain area too many times, your drops will gradually get crappier.

Also, if someone get's lucky a few times in a row, it doesn't prove anything by saying how small the odds are. Not only does it make no difference for the PC as to what a good drop is (since it's very subjective), but every time you kill a boss, the odds are the same. If for example, the odds are 0.20, it's 0.20 every single time.

temp

temp

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

my bedroom

Band Of Death UK

i found that the more runs i do the more greens i get...its not hard to get a party together or Oro. The usualy Oro party is 8 as they want the mission too, plus u need the extra's for cannon fodde, so if you take all hench you can run this run for ages (kill bortak or w/e n then run outside sorrows get oro n back in) n the only one who will leave is you.

It is completely random how drops are allocated....at least there wasnt 2 of you (in UW with my SS necro n 55 monk n all the drops were for me [all the decent ones] think how peeved he must have felt) Don;t complain just run

Lexar

Lexar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Organised Spam

W/

You shouldn't leave, who's to say the next drop wouldn't be for you? That's how chance works, and that's why people get addicted to it

Vilaptca

Vilaptca

Pre-Searing Vanquisher

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexar
Btw, when you just sit around at the start of a mission and don't get involved with anything at all, you don't get drops.

I sort of suspect that you need to be involved in the fight with the small group of enemies to get a drop. As anyone who has ever pulled a mob will acknowledge, mobs are usually small groups of 3-6 enemies that probably work together like the player parties. If you are involved with either one of them, you are considered for a drop.

Involvement can be anything, really, being hexed, conditioned, damaged, but also supporting characters who are interacting with the enemies, or attacking the enemies. If you do that, even once, you can get a drop from any enemy in that group.

I think, once you are considered for a drop in a group, you are 'randomly' picked. But you need some form of basic involvement to the fight. It doesn't have to be damage, it can be anything. You could target the enemy and run to it, and never even use a skill or attack, if it got killed before you got there

Anyway, I suspect it works like that, in any way, it's the impression I have gotten from playing. If it's not like this, it should be like this at any rate Of course other factors are involved too, like for example, if you have been in a certain area too many times, your drops will gradually get crappier.

Also, if someone get's lucky a few times in a row, it doesn't prove anything by saying how small the odds are. Not only does it make no difference for the PC as to what a good drop is (since it's very subjective), but every time you kill a boss, the odds are the same. If for example, the odds are 0.20, it's 0.20 every single time.
If you sit at the start of the mission, eventually you will be out of the range to receive drops. Try it sometime, have two people split up and fight their way away from each other, you will notice that drops will be random for either one until a certain point when you are both too far away from each other to possibly get a drop from what the other is doing.

This is also why the person who posted farther above who stayed back at the Great Northern Wall and killed Charr while the rest of the group went ahead got most of the drops.

The problem with SF farming is that people do it over and over and over and over and over again. And like most farming, repeatedly farming the same area will hurt your drops. If the tank in this group hasn't farmed SF for quite a while, but everyone has, the drops are going to be much better for him.

Look up other threads about this and you'll find a lot of evidence that pretty much proves what I've said. Or just try it yourself. Have a few guildmates farm SF for like 7 days in a row, eventually their drops will start getting pretty bad, then you join them on the 8th day and you should be getting some pretty good drops.

Don't take my word 100% on this though, because it is still random, by saying get better drops, I do not mean get all green drops. Though...I wouldn't be surprised if you did get all green drops.

Manic Smile

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

----- 15^50[Rare] ---- Alliance: ----- [SMS] -----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantus
What's the "real" way, then? Become a trader and screw new players by selling them overpriced items?

Hmmm...I don't know...not SF, ToA over and over and over and over and over and and over and over..then switch to griffens with drops start to suck then that over and over and over and over...then on the ettins...

you get the idea? Well not that.

Kool Pajamas

Kool Pajamas

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Maryland

Mage Elites [MAGE]

Random =/= evenly distributed

castanaveras

castanaveras

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Someone told me if you have a higher rank, you'll get better drops than the person with lower or no rank. I don't belive in this at first, but whenever I go farming with my friend (he's rank=9, me rank=0), 9 out of 10 times he's always get the good drop. hmmmm....

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by striderkaaru
i think there's something that people need to understand about computer programs and the random number generator.

it's true that drops and such have no criteria and are "random." however, this isn't truly as random as people think. computers are incapable of true randomness, and even the random number generator is based off of a calculation. these calculations use what is called a "seed." most use an ever changing seed, such as system time, in order to simulate randomness. it is only a simulation of randomness, and thus, there are chances of it being not so random. this is just the way computer programs work, and you can't do anything about it.

with that said, people complain about fairness. you could suggest implementing something which allocates things fairly. however, someone mentioned earlier that some greens are worth more than others. everyone in a group could get the same number of greens, but someone will always b*tch about how one person is getting all of the "good" ones.

the fact of the matter is, if you don't have a better solution to way the drops work, know your role and shut your mouth. when you take the time to farm an area, you know that drops are "random." thus, you know that drops are not guaranteed and yet, you still invest the time. it is a gamble that you make with your time, you may come out with something, and you may not. you know that, but you still take the chance.

anet has been doing a great job with this no monthly fee game.
quit your whining and play it.
In fact I *do* have a better solution to the drop system.

1) Implement an auction house system.

2) It's trivial for the system to over time compile and correlate selling prices with "true value" of items, rather than just the merchant price.

3) From this data good drops can be allocated in a round robin fashion. How hard is that to implement?

Sereng Amaranth

Sereng Amaranth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Amazon Basin [AB]

I get better drops on Tuesday afternoons when its raining.

Konrow

Konrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

NY, New York

Warlords of Earth [WAR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth
I get better drops on Tuesday afternoons when its raining.
i personally get the best drops on sundays at noon. i think it depends on when you got the game




[/major sarcasm]

striderkaaru

striderkaaru

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
In fact I *do* have a better solution to the drop system.

1) Implement an auction house system.

2) It's trivial for the system to over time compile and correlate selling prices with "true value" of items, rather than just the merchant price.

3) From this data good drops can be allocated in a round robin fashion. How hard is that to implement?
i don't see how this is a solution.

1) auction houses are separate from the drop system. auctioning items still occurs AFTER a drop has been made. that guy with the 3 greens will then just be selling those 3 greens while the rest of you complain.

2) do you have any idea what kind of load it will be on the system if you are querying a database every time something dies?

3) is this a round robin distribution per instance or overall? if it is per instance, then taking your example, 3/5 people have just gotten greens. maybe 1 green was crap, leaving 2/5 people happy. the other 3 will still complain that the system is unfair. as it was mentioned earlier, implementing something that is "fair" and "random" is not possible.