Team Build: Z-Way | Z-Merc Edition | (Update 3.0)
greenough
He basically took an idea i had years ago http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/g...t10478958.html and applied it to other area's that can be afk'd.
I wouldn't go as far as saying this is the best hero setup for all those areas, I've done them all with mesmers, discord, spirit spam and ranger/para combo, they all work well.
Every area is different and the builds can be changed to optimize them. A lot of places all you need is 3 heals on a sos rit and an e/mo where others you might need defensive skills like panic or shelter.
The dps player setup is off though, you should never need an ST and E/MO on the same team.
I wouldn't go as far as saying this is the best hero setup for all those areas, I've done them all with mesmers, discord, spirit spam and ranger/para combo, they all work well.
Every area is different and the builds can be changed to optimize them. A lot of places all you need is 3 heals on a sos rit and an e/mo where others you might need defensive skills like panic or shelter.
The dps player setup is off though, you should never need an ST and E/MO on the same team.
Zephyr of Light
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Best migitation is death, but if you can't handle certain encounters by incautiously overpulling or the DPS not being on point, or even have a lack of it (AoE) then those situations is most of the time a certain death if you don't have the protection or cc to compromise that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Life Bringing As for the spells that leak through, isn't that what Shelter is for? If you plan to stop every nuke from hitting your party, why is the ST even there? Even without an ST, smart positioning and agro removes the need to stop everything. Forge is more than doable without an ST, let alone 5 mesmers. I included the ST for serval reasons, its probably the best type of party wide defense that exists in GW, it has a global effect other then single target like most monk spells do.
ST has its weaknesses because Shelter only lasts for 8 hits (with 16 communing / 12 spawning) and 17 hits with Armor of Unfeeling. (Info taken from the wiki by Tub)
Balled, it would only take two good AoE hits on you're team to make it drop.
Flagged, it eases the strain by alot more as it takes damage more evenly then being spiked.
Flagging is also very important and nessesairy in most situations, thats where ST tends to prove its value.
But I hardly believe that people through regular gameplay will be flagging all the time or at any encounter just to make the ST be worth the slot in the long run.
The ST brings protection to the first two or three deep AoE hits you're party can take while left unflagged, also can cover a good amount of melee hits before the mesmers engage to controll the situation.
That makes the ST for me the reason its the first and primairy line of defense for this team.
This team does not have the abillity to divert damage too other targets, like spirit spammers or minions masters are able to do, but would kill the ST role in the process.
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I don't actually know what you're currently running as far as bars go so it would be difficult to suggest specific changes. From what it looks like you have a base of maybe 3-4 bars and swap out the rest situationally. If you post your current bars I'll give it a run through and see what I can suggest. Note that I don't have mercs so it'll have to be without those. I don't think this is too unreasonable considering a player shouldn't need mercs to clear areas, similar to how you shouldn't need cons either.
Also I'm fairly sure the game caps attributes at 20, even in HM. My primairy pve charracter is monk, but not always fills its traditional role as Healer, I play many variations without the need (personally) for changing my primairy.
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Checked thoroughly, and your right indeed with that attribute hardcap, made a wrong assumption there and took damage calculation out of play, as that assumption was made out of spell damage observation taken that went well over 350+ damage which excluded cracked armor (Searing Flames, Shatterstone, and various other encounters.).
So i'm indeed wrong on that part.
Originally Posted by Jeydra
If your idea of playing is to aggro a mob, tab out for five minutes, tab back in with all hostiles dead, move on to the next mob, repeat - if that is your idea of playing, then by all means run this build.
Also I'm fairly sure the game caps attributes at 20, even in HM. My primairy pve charracter is monk, but not always fills its traditional role as Healer, I play many variations without the need (personally) for changing my primairy.
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Checked thoroughly, and your right indeed with that attribute hardcap, made a wrong assumption there and took damage calculation out of play, as that assumption was made out of spell damage observation taken that went well over 350+ damage which excluded cracked armor (Searing Flames, Shatterstone, and various other encounters.).
So i'm indeed wrong on that part.
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Aside from that it allows the player to be less (of a factor) interactive during events as it can run by itself.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra
Having said that, I'll say also that I don't see anything new in this build for people who do care about kill speed. It's running several subpar builds that have been tried, tested, and rejected.
Its nothing new indeed, simply because the builds have been proven to be the best for those professions involved (and their given roles).
All the hero builds used are builds that have received a excellent or meta rating on the PvXwiki which have been modified for personal taste but still fall in those lines, so you kinda lost me at tested and rejected part.
The only factor that increases the kill speed is the player itself, which haves a very broad variety of doing so.
Other then the players influence, the killspeed is basicly anywhere the same since only the mob health is a factor. (Armor becomes a second factor if choosing not to take armor ingoring damage, thus by taking most other profession skills.)
''Mesmers, while capable of multiple styles of play, do not do anything specifically well in PvE when compared to other classes. Elementalists have better AoE, Warriors have higher dps, Rangers have better interruption.''
Yet all those classes have been made obsolete in speed clearing due armor scaling.All the hero builds used are builds that have received a excellent or meta rating on the PvXwiki which have been modified for personal taste but still fall in those lines, so you kinda lost me at tested and rejected part.
The only factor that increases the kill speed is the player itself, which haves a very broad variety of doing so.
Other then the players influence, the killspeed is basicly anywhere the same since only the mob health is a factor. (Armor becomes a second factor if choosing not to take armor ingoring damage, thus by taking most other profession skills.)
Which is why you can't afford too whipe in Domain of Anguish, Urgoz, The Deep, Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, and basicly any mission.
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Besides this above, I think your trying to refer me of a thread back in 2007 started by Avarre.
Which I certainly agree with on some points, but disagree with alot of things he said, but keep in mind those statements are made 8 years ago, and times have definately changed.
I'm not patronizing mesmers, but simply how I and probably most people look at them today.
So I picked out a few of his statements which I think you are speaking of and agreeing with, and i'll be giving feedback on those said points.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
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Besides this above, I think your trying to refer me of a thread back in 2007 started by Avarre.
Which I certainly agree with on some points, but disagree with alot of things he said, but keep in mind those statements are made 8 years ago, and times have definately changed.
I'm not patronizing mesmers, but simply how I and probably most people look at them today.
So I picked out a few of his statements which I think you are speaking of and agreeing with, and i'll be giving feedback on those said points.
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Aside from the fact that Warriors and Dervishs hold a spot in certain teams purely for its AoE capabillity, more specificly how skills like Hundred Blades, Sand Shards, and Vow of Strength trigger on every seperate enemy to deal AoE damage. (Simply more then any other profession can, with the right amount of targets being affected and thus triggers made by said skills)
I disagree that Rangers have better interupting, especially if you take the flight time, angle, height, and casting time in account.
And mainly the flight time and height is a factor mesmers don't suffer from.
Yes their AI could be spot on to theoreticly have been able to interrupt a skill, but that excludes other factors said above which still have effect of its true effiency.
Its minimal, but its there.
Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre ''When you block skills and capabilities, you reduce the effective intelligence of the enemy, as they can no longer do complex or efficient things. PvE mobs are already at 0 effective intelligence, and need very little shutdown.
ANet created a fascinating class that counters the skill of an enemy as much as their skills – but mobs can’t be made any less skillful, and efficiency is in abusing this fact more than in anything that can be applied to the foe. I agree with this to a certain degree, making enemies unable to preform may reduce efficiency of the crowd controll mesmer to a certain degree, because it can't do more then it already does.
But a shut-down enemy, does not result in the mesmer being less effective if it reduces their damage capabillity to almost zero.
It simply translates into less energy used into Healing or Protection.
They still are able to deal damage while interupting and obscuring their use till a certain degree, just like Elementists, besides that interupting and obscuring is the elementists secondairy point of effect while their damage comes first.
Because armor is such a huge factor these days (in HM) its impossible to deny the fact that mesmers are able to do equal if not more damage under these circumstances, as elementists simply supply reduced (variable) damage, and mesmers do not.
Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre ''You don’t need to attempt to control an enemy when the length of the battle is determined by how fast your spells destroy them, and not who cracks under pressure first. Disruption, the ‘reduction of enemy efficiency’ that Mesmers are meant to be capable of, is easier caused by Eles and Rangers. With monsters blindly wielding skills on recharge, and chasing those they see, the best way to reduce effectiveness is through simply abusing the AI, and then laying into them with force. No matter how much you shut down an enemy, it still has to be killed – and classes like Elementalists and Rangers can disrupt as well as deal massively superior damage.'' Best migitation of damage, is death, is highly agree.
But if you choose to have a party whos setup is designed to outdamage the enemy then you can last comes with its own sacrifice, if that fails then death becomes a certain thing.
It works in alot of places, but just not everywhere just like my hero team won't work in certain places.
Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre ''If you tripled the size of the monster group, the Mesmer would be shutting down only a third of his foes, and the Elementalist dealing three times his prior damage – making the Elementalist nine times more effective.'' Disagree, mesmers yield the same area of effect (damage) spells elementists have that are either Adjecent, Nearby, or In The Area.
(Cry of Frustration, Esurge, Wastrel Demise, Wastrel Worry, Complicate, Mistrust, Shatter Delusion, Unnatural Signet, Chaos Storm, the list goes on and on.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre ''This is because most Mesmer skills are single-target'' The most offensive mesmer spells are AoE spells, so choosing not to take those makes them ineffective indeed, and as noted above there are plenty of damage skills mesmers have whom their primairy effects is control rather then damage (elementist).
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''Rangers (broadhead/epidemic or conc/epidemic/barrage) are more capable at caster shutdown and interrupts. Elementalists can throw out more disruption and damage with chained meteor showers.''
I disagree with this aswell, as said previously the Rangers interrupt value relies on other variables mesmers dont suffer from to be succesfull.
The elementists effects are secondairy and not primairly used for its secondairy effect, because those skills get punished with higher recharge times.
This is in contrast with mesmers whom have faster recharge times on spells with their primairy effect being the elementists secondairy.
Hence why their damage is ''significantly'' lower then elementists, but since everything is armor ignoring it balances out nicely while elementists have to deal with armor rating in HM.
The elementists effects are secondairy and not primairly used for its secondairy effect, because those skills get punished with higher recharge times.
This is in contrast with mesmers whom have faster recharge times on spells with their primairy effect being the elementists secondairy.
Hence why their damage is ''significantly'' lower then elementists, but since everything is armor ignoring it balances out nicely while elementists have to deal with armor rating in HM.
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