Hi guys
I've played all the Guild Wars games casually, I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how to go about learning theory crafting. I've been struggling to get through the crystal desert with my heroes. I thought I'd try my hand at it to maximise my teams effectiveness. Can anyone point me in the right direction.
W/Mo heroes support?
Duster
Marty Silverblade
What you ought to do is post your builds. That way we can explain what's good, what's not, and more importantly, why. That's the best way to learn. Without that, all we can really do is give general advice. One thing that comes to mind is to make sure you understand the role of each profession. In your case, it's damage. The only Monk skills that you should ever consider having on your bar are Strength of Honor and some condition/hex removal skills, but only if you need them and only if you don't have heroes (which you do, so you ought to be running a bar full of Warrior skills right now). Some even more general advice would be to make sure your armor is reasonably up to date (you can get 71AL armor crafted in Amnoon Oasis though you could get 80AL (the maximum) if you were willing to pop over to a different campaign), and to try to capture the Warrior's Endurance elite in the missions. It's a key part of some meta builds.
FWIW, you can find lists of meta builds on gwpvx wiki and there's a sticky in this forum that discusses some varying build types. You might not get much out of them (especially the wiki, given the lack of explanations) as you seem to still be fairly raw, though I may be wrong.
FWIW, you can find lists of meta builds on gwpvx wiki and there's a sticky in this forum that discusses some varying build types. You might not get much out of them (especially the wiki, given the lack of explanations) as you seem to still be fairly raw, though I may be wrong.
Duster
At the of sounding like a fool
(By raw you mean new to all of this?). I have been tweaking it as I go, but I'm still dying more then not. I've been playing for a while but never really looked at the science behind the builds.
My Warrior Monk
•Healing signet
•Frenzy
•Sever Artery
•Gash
•Power Attack
•Galrath Slash
•Bane Signet
•Endure Pain
(By raw you mean new to all of this?). I have been tweaking it as I go, but I'm still dying more then not. I've been playing for a while but never really looked at the science behind the builds.My Warrior Monk
•Healing signet
•Frenzy
•Sever Artery
•Gash
•Power Attack
•Galrath Slash
•Bane Signet
•Endure Pain
Zahr Dalsk
I'll go through these one at a time.
>Healing Signet
Bad. It makes you more vulnerable while using it, plus you aren't attacking. Leave healing to your backline.
>Frenzy
Super bad in almost all circumstances. Double damage is awful. It would be better to take a different IAS (Improved Attack Speed skill) like Flurry or Flail. Do note though that Flurry lowers your base damage, and Flail requires adrenal buildup plus slows you down while active. Both are better than Frenzy though. IAS is tricky, you have to pick one that works best and then work with its downsides. I usually roll with Flail and play around the reduced speed.
>Sever Artery
>Gash
Good combo, mainly for the Deep Wound. Deep Wound reduces enemy max health and healing benefit by 20%, making it easier to kill them. Keep this in mind when applying Deep Wound. It is the reason to use this combo.
>Power Attack
I would drop it when you have other options on your bar but it's ok for now.
>Galrath Slash
Again I would drop it later but for now it's ok.
>Bane Signet
Largely pointless, since without Smiting Prayers investment (which you should avoid) it's basically just a KD. KDs are nice but warriors have better options for this and you have no skills that synergize with KD. At best it will shut down an enemy for a moment.
>Endure Pain
Bad, as it doesn't actually reduce incoming damage, just increases maximum health.
Now for more details do you actually have heroes or just henchmen? If you have heroes, which profession heroes do you have available? I'd rather avoid just giving you wiki builds as A: you won't learn anything from that and B: you'll be missing most of the skills needed if you're new, but I can give you tips on what sort of roles and skills your heroes should have.
Your team will be pretty important and aside from Frenzy, chances are a lot of your dying is happening because of your team overall being not very good. With a good team you can cruise by even with a bad build, and thus even today ZM is full of people with awful builds who never realize it because their team of Wiki build heroes carries them
Now regarding your bar, there's always a limit to the number of skills of a given kind that you'll want to take. A monk, for example, shouldn't have more than a couple heals, because it's just redundant on their bar, and two would already recharge fast enough to use both of them. Similarly, a warrior doesn't benefit from a bar full of attack skills, so even though your job as warrior is mainly to dish out damage, a good deal of your bar won't be direct attack skills.
Rather, you want perhaps half of your bar to be attack skills, and the other half to be skills that support this or support your party.
So you'll want three or four attack skills, chosen such that you should generally be able to fire them off constantly (eg no long downtime from a bunch of high adrenal cost attacks or out of energy from all energy attacks). You'll want an IAS (Improved Attack Speed) to increase your overall attack speed and thus damage, you'll want an IMS (Improved Movement Speed) for better maneuverability and in Flail's case to break Flail's reduced movement effect when needed. You may want a hard res, and if possible you want one or two skills that facilitate team support, such as "Watch Yourselves!" or better yet "Save Yourselves!", or the always useful adrenal booster "For Great Justice!"
(If anything I say regarding Warrior gameplay contradicts what Marty says, go with his advice rather than mine. He knows a lot more about Warrior gameplay than I do )
>Healing Signet
Bad. It makes you more vulnerable while using it, plus you aren't attacking. Leave healing to your backline.
>Frenzy
Super bad in almost all circumstances. Double damage is awful. It would be better to take a different IAS (Improved Attack Speed skill) like Flurry or Flail. Do note though that Flurry lowers your base damage, and Flail requires adrenal buildup plus slows you down while active. Both are better than Frenzy though. IAS is tricky, you have to pick one that works best and then work with its downsides. I usually roll with Flail and play around the reduced speed.
>Sever Artery
>Gash
Good combo, mainly for the Deep Wound. Deep Wound reduces enemy max health and healing benefit by 20%, making it easier to kill them. Keep this in mind when applying Deep Wound. It is the reason to use this combo.
>Power Attack
I would drop it when you have other options on your bar but it's ok for now.
>Galrath Slash
Again I would drop it later but for now it's ok.
>Bane Signet
Largely pointless, since without Smiting Prayers investment (which you should avoid) it's basically just a KD. KDs are nice but warriors have better options for this and you have no skills that synergize with KD. At best it will shut down an enemy for a moment.
>Endure Pain
Bad, as it doesn't actually reduce incoming damage, just increases maximum health.
Now for more details do you actually have heroes or just henchmen? If you have heroes, which profession heroes do you have available? I'd rather avoid just giving you wiki builds as A: you won't learn anything from that and B: you'll be missing most of the skills needed if you're new, but I can give you tips on what sort of roles and skills your heroes should have.
Your team will be pretty important and aside from Frenzy, chances are a lot of your dying is happening because of your team overall being not very good. With a good team you can cruise by even with a bad build, and thus even today ZM is full of people with awful builds who never realize it because their team of Wiki build heroes carries them
Now regarding your bar, there's always a limit to the number of skills of a given kind that you'll want to take. A monk, for example, shouldn't have more than a couple heals, because it's just redundant on their bar, and two would already recharge fast enough to use both of them. Similarly, a warrior doesn't benefit from a bar full of attack skills, so even though your job as warrior is mainly to dish out damage, a good deal of your bar won't be direct attack skills.
Rather, you want perhaps half of your bar to be attack skills, and the other half to be skills that support this or support your party.
So you'll want three or four attack skills, chosen such that you should generally be able to fire them off constantly (eg no long downtime from a bunch of high adrenal cost attacks or out of energy from all energy attacks). You'll want an IAS (Improved Attack Speed) to increase your overall attack speed and thus damage, you'll want an IMS (Improved Movement Speed) for better maneuverability and in Flail's case to break Flail's reduced movement effect when needed. You may want a hard res, and if possible you want one or two skills that facilitate team support, such as "Watch Yourselves!" or better yet "Save Yourselves!", or the always useful adrenal booster "For Great Justice!"
(If anything I say regarding Warrior gameplay contradicts what Marty says, go with his advice rather than mine. He knows a lot more about Warrior gameplay than I do
)
Marty Silverblade
It would be good if you also clarified which campaigns you own and whether you actually have heroes or are just misusing that term (Alesia, Orion, Stefan and the like are henchmen, heroes are characters such as Koss or Vekk). It'll make a big difference to the advice we can give.
My take on your bar:
Healing Signet: It's not awful, but it's tricky. The health gain has been buffed a couple of times so it's not an unreasonable pick, though when you need it most (under heavy attack) it's not viable due to the double damage clause. If aggro spreads itself out more (not ideal, but you don't need to hold all the aggro all the time) you might get some good use out of it. That said, the better thing to do is to jump over to Nightfall and pick up Lion's Comfort. Ideally you wouldn't run a self heal (your job is to hit things; your backline should be the ones making sure you're in a state to do that) but if you're new and/or relying on henchmen I wouldn't blame you for wanting one.
Frenzy: A skill that increases your attack speed ("IAS") by 33% results in you getting in 50% more hits. It's essential. As mentioned by the above poster though, double damage is troublesome. Flail tends to be preferred for this reason. To mitigate the additional damage (which does stack with the double damage from heal sig, leading to 4x damage) people run a 'cancel stance': a second stance that you can activate that will override Frenzy in the event that you're about to eat a big chunk of damage. Generally people use Rush because it costs adrenaline and so will be available more often than a recharge based skill. You can grab it by capping it from Stik Barkripper in Ettin's Back. When you get heroes set up you can have them cast protection spells like Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption on you that will likely alleviate the need for a cancel stance, though you'll still probably prefer Flail.
Sever Artery + Gash: Deep Wound is really good. Sever isn't much good on it's own but it's worth it for Gash.
Power Attack: A great skill, though the issue is fueling it. Warriors get 2 pips of energy regeneration, meaning you recover 2 energy every 3 seconds. Power Attack, if you were to use it on recharge (i.e, allow it to reach its full potential) consumes energy at about twice that rate. It'll be competing with your other energy skills too, so even though the +30 (or more) damage boost looks good, you have to weigh up whether you can use it often enough for it to justify a spot. For example, do you get more damage out of this, or by using "For Great Justice!" to spam your other attacks more frequently? Not that PA and FGJ are mutually exclusive, of course. Generally people use it in combination with the aforementioned Warrior's Endurance to allow them to spam it.
Galrath Slash: Consumes adrenaline and grants lots of +damage, so it's a good pick.
Bane Signet: You're not really going to get much out of this. You're already running three attributes (rule of thumb is to not split four ways unless you don't really have any other option) so the damage won't be worth it (in fact, it may actually be subpar to just attacking, something that will certainly be the case once you get set up a little better), and that just leaves you with a knockdown. Definitely a candidate for dropping.
Endure Pain: I understand why you'd want it but it doesn't achieve all that much. It's ultimately a crutch. It's better to sort out whatever makes you feel you need it. Also, apparently it screws with the AI of your Monk henchmen, though I can't personally confirm that.
With where you're at, I'd say this is the likely ideal:
-Sever Artery
-Gash
-Galrath Slash
-FGJ
-Frenzy
-Rush
-Heal Sig (if Lion's Comfort isn't available and you think you get enough out of it to be worthwhile)
-Strength of Honor
Attributes would be 11 Sword / 9 Strength / 8 Tactics / 8 Smite, again, assuming no heroes and no Lion's Comfort.
SoH really belongs on a hero, though if you don't have them there isn't much you can do. Conjure spells are largely the same, if you prefer those. You'll need to complete the desert before you can switch your secondary though.
If you want more explanation on the numbers or whatnot, by all means ask.
Another thing to think about is that getting better at GW isn't just about running a better build. Learning how to do things like pull and corner block can make huge differences to your effectiveness.
My take on your bar:
Healing Signet: It's not awful, but it's tricky. The health gain has been buffed a couple of times so it's not an unreasonable pick, though when you need it most (under heavy attack) it's not viable due to the double damage clause. If aggro spreads itself out more (not ideal, but you don't need to hold all the aggro all the time) you might get some good use out of it. That said, the better thing to do is to jump over to Nightfall and pick up Lion's Comfort. Ideally you wouldn't run a self heal (your job is to hit things; your backline should be the ones making sure you're in a state to do that) but if you're new and/or relying on henchmen I wouldn't blame you for wanting one.
Frenzy: A skill that increases your attack speed ("IAS") by 33% results in you getting in 50% more hits. It's essential. As mentioned by the above poster though, double damage is troublesome. Flail tends to be preferred for this reason. To mitigate the additional damage (which does stack with the double damage from heal sig, leading to 4x damage) people run a 'cancel stance': a second stance that you can activate that will override Frenzy in the event that you're about to eat a big chunk of damage. Generally people use Rush because it costs adrenaline and so will be available more often than a recharge based skill. You can grab it by capping it from Stik Barkripper in Ettin's Back. When you get heroes set up you can have them cast protection spells like Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption on you that will likely alleviate the need for a cancel stance, though you'll still probably prefer Flail.
Sever Artery + Gash: Deep Wound is really good. Sever isn't much good on it's own but it's worth it for Gash.
Power Attack: A great skill, though the issue is fueling it. Warriors get 2 pips of energy regeneration, meaning you recover 2 energy every 3 seconds. Power Attack, if you were to use it on recharge (i.e, allow it to reach its full potential) consumes energy at about twice that rate. It'll be competing with your other energy skills too, so even though the +30 (or more) damage boost looks good, you have to weigh up whether you can use it often enough for it to justify a spot. For example, do you get more damage out of this, or by using "For Great Justice!" to spam your other attacks more frequently? Not that PA and FGJ are mutually exclusive, of course. Generally people use it in combination with the aforementioned Warrior's Endurance to allow them to spam it.
Galrath Slash: Consumes adrenaline and grants lots of +damage, so it's a good pick.
Bane Signet: You're not really going to get much out of this. You're already running three attributes (rule of thumb is to not split four ways unless you don't really have any other option) so the damage won't be worth it (in fact, it may actually be subpar to just attacking, something that will certainly be the case once you get set up a little better), and that just leaves you with a knockdown. Definitely a candidate for dropping.
Endure Pain: I understand why you'd want it but it doesn't achieve all that much. It's ultimately a crutch. It's better to sort out whatever makes you feel you need it. Also, apparently it screws with the AI of your Monk henchmen, though I can't personally confirm that.
With where you're at, I'd say this is the likely ideal:
-Sever Artery
-Gash
-Galrath Slash
-FGJ
-Frenzy
-Rush
-Heal Sig (if Lion's Comfort isn't available and you think you get enough out of it to be worthwhile)
-Strength of Honor
Attributes would be 11 Sword / 9 Strength / 8 Tactics / 8 Smite, again, assuming no heroes and no Lion's Comfort.
SoH really belongs on a hero, though if you don't have them there isn't much you can do. Conjure spells are largely the same, if you prefer those. You'll need to complete the desert before you can switch your secondary though.
If you want more explanation on the numbers or whatnot, by all means ask.
Another thing to think about is that getting better at GW isn't just about running a better build. Learning how to do things like pull and corner block can make huge differences to your effectiveness.
Duster
Thanks Guys I appreciate the advice, to clarify I have all Prophecies, Factions, NightFall and Eyes of the North. I do play with heroes as appose to henchman when I can. I'm not new to the game I've never really bothered to look at the details. I thought I would try to learn theory crafting as I play a lot of rpg, table top and card games in order to improve.
My current team is as follows.
My Warrior Monk
• Healing signet
• Frenzy
• Sever Artery
• Gash
• Power Attack
• Galrath Slash
• Bane Signet
• Endure Pain
Koss: Warrior
• Healing signet
• Frenzy
• Mighty Blow
• Irresistible Blow
• Hammer Bash
• Watch Yourself
• Wild Blow
• Resurrection Signet
Ogden : Monk
• Healing Breeze
• Holy Veil
• Remove Hex
• Purge Conditions
• Live Vicariously
• Smite Hex
• Bane Signet
• Resurrect
Olias : Nercomancer
• Soul Feast
• Well of Blood
• Animate Bone Minions
• Animate Bone Horror
• Vampric Touch
• Life Siphon
• Death Nova
• Enfeebling Blood
Gwen : Mesmer
• Cry of Frustration
• Diversion
• Shatter Enchantment
• Ether Feast
• Power Drain
• Hex Breaker
• Energy Tap
• Resurrection Signet
Vekk : Elementalist
• Aura of Restoration
• Blinding Flash
• Teinai’s Wind
• Lightning Strike
• Gale
• Glyph of Elemental Power
• Glyph of Lesser Energy
• Air Attunement
Acolyte Jin: Ranger
• Troll Unguent
• Distracting Shot
• Kindle Arrows
• Power Shot
• Lightning Reflexes
• Disrupting Accuracy
• Crossfire
• Point Blank Shot
My current team is as follows.
My Warrior Monk
• Healing signet
• Frenzy
• Sever Artery
• Gash
• Power Attack
• Galrath Slash
• Bane Signet
• Endure Pain
Koss: Warrior
• Healing signet
• Frenzy
• Mighty Blow
• Irresistible Blow
• Hammer Bash
• Watch Yourself
• Wild Blow
• Resurrection Signet
Ogden : Monk
• Healing Breeze
• Holy Veil
• Remove Hex
• Purge Conditions
• Live Vicariously
• Smite Hex
• Bane Signet
• Resurrect
Olias : Nercomancer
• Soul Feast
• Well of Blood
• Animate Bone Minions
• Animate Bone Horror
• Vampric Touch
• Life Siphon
• Death Nova
• Enfeebling Blood
Gwen : Mesmer
• Cry of Frustration
• Diversion
• Shatter Enchantment
• Ether Feast
• Power Drain
• Hex Breaker
• Energy Tap
• Resurrection Signet
Vekk : Elementalist
• Aura of Restoration
• Blinding Flash
• Teinai’s Wind
• Lightning Strike
• Gale
• Glyph of Elemental Power
• Glyph of Lesser Energy
• Air Attunement
Acolyte Jin: Ranger
• Troll Unguent
• Distracting Shot
• Kindle Arrows
• Power Shot
• Lightning Reflexes
• Disrupting Accuracy
• Crossfire
• Point Blank Shot
Marty Silverblade
Some thoughts in no particular order:
-I really want to avoid talking too much about specific skills here, so I'm not going to pick out every single thing that you ought to do build-wise. I'll be sticking to the main principles, as per the topic of the thread.
-This is why I recommend starting in Prophecies rather than Nightfall. There are some basic errors here, like running two preparations and two glyphs on the same bar - you can only have one active at a time. You'll also likely benefit from playing different professions to get first hand experience as to why some things work and why others don't, plus unlocking more skills is always handy.
-Make yourself the focal point of the team. It's easier to direct heroes this way. Set up your heroes to compliment you, like fitting in Strength of Honor as previously described and Shatter Hex on the mesmer (for damage moreso than the hex removal).
-Your bars lack focus. Remember that you're building a team, not 4/6/8 individual characters. As such, try to get an idea of what each bar is meant to achieve and where it fits on the frontline-midline-backline scale. For example, don't put a self heal on everyone with the expectation they'll primarily be self sufficient and leave the monks to complete auxiliary functions. The monk's job is to keep you alive, so make it the key cog of your defense. There's nothing wrong with self heals (I'd leave them in); it's just that you ought to look at them more as top ups rather than something that's pivotal to your team's success.
-Six man areas are a little annoying. Two backliners tends to seem like too much but one isn't enough. Kryta and the Jungle aren't so bad because the foes aren't outleveling you and they have fewer annoying skills, but the desert leaves you in that awkward not-sure-how-much-defense-to-take situation. When you get through the desert and reach the next area, you'll need two proper backliners. Just fyi.
-You seem to have a fascination with hex removal. Perhaps because of the Wind Rider things in the Jungle? Generally speaking, most hexes that get thrown at you range from irrelevant to mildly annoying. The aim isn't to get rid of all of them, just the ones that are legitimately impairing your effectiveness.
-Don't give the AI skills that need to be used intelligently because they can't do that. See here.
-If a hero has a free secondary and can slot a resurrection skill, it tends to be better to go /Monk or /Rit for a reusable one. People also tend to not put them on their monks as that slot could be used to keep people alive, but it's not a definitive no-no. If you do keep one on Ogden though, make sure to disable (shift-click) it so he doesn't try to rez mid-fight, leaving everyone else to die in the meantime.
Right, build by build:
You've got seven people here. Not sure if you routinely leave one out or switch as needed.
You: Discussed at length already, and you can make the key changes suggested. Flail isn't normally available until the end of NF so you'll need to unlock it first so you can buy it in Kamadan.
Koss: Running this bar on Koss is going to get him slaughtered. Like you, Flail and Lion's Comfort will be much easier than Frenzy + Heal Sig. Two skills that drain all adrenaline is going to severely hamper the usage of any adrenaline skills, especially once you add Flail+LC. I'd add For Great Justice and another adrenaline attack if you can. Alternatively, you can rework his build with Warrior's Endurance when you get it.
Ogden: No two ways about this: the whole bar ought to be scrapped. As previously mentioned, this is the heart of your defense, so you need to get some strong damage mitigation in. Aegis and Protective Spirit are staples, and you'll need Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist) to fuel them. Dwayna's Kiss and Cure Hex (for the heal as much as the hex removal) plus one more (the Word of Healing elite when you capture it in the missions, pick something else for now) to keep red bars up. Drop the smites because they don't belong here. Also skip Healing Breeze because heroes don't use regen spells very well (they'll cast it on someone and then slap a big heal on them... it tends to result in poor usage of energy).
Vekk: Would prefer fire, but air works well enough. Gale probably doesn't work too well because 10 exhaustion with a 5 second recharge is probably going to eat his energy bar. Skills with exhaustion have to be carefully managed, and that's not a strong point for heroes. Also, as per the above link, Teinai's Wind is probably going to make him rush into the melee, so that's not ideal. Lightning Orb can go in to fulfil Air's niche of high single target damage. His secondary is free so Strength of Honor can go here.
Olias: Necromancers, as midliners, are great. The key role you want them to perform - in this case Minion Bombing - often only takes up half the bar, leaving plenty of room for whatever else you could possibly want. The essentials in this case are the animations and Death Nova. Masochism is a key skill too but it's not essential. Spare skills in this case are probably best spent on extra protections. A second copy of Aegis, plus Shielding Hands and whatever else you might want/need at the time are likely the best options. I'm not sure if Enfeebling Blood would still fit if you did that though, which would be a shame, but it works well even with low curses. Could fit on Gwen or Vekk if needed. The blood skills don't add much and are entirely disposable (especially Vamp Touch which will have him entering melee, again, see that link).
Gwen: Bar looks fine. Naturally there are better skills but there aren't any pressing issues.
Jin: As mentioned at the top, two preparations is a no-no. Power Shot isn't +damage; it's just the stated damage. That makes it the poster boy for terrible ranger skills. Find something else.
Right, so I clearly failed to not talk specifically about skills, but I think I've covered the key theory concepts in the process. Again, if there's anything you specifically want clarified, by all means ask.
-I really want to avoid talking too much about specific skills here, so I'm not going to pick out every single thing that you ought to do build-wise. I'll be sticking to the main principles, as per the topic of the thread.
-This is why I recommend starting in Prophecies rather than Nightfall. There are some basic errors here, like running two preparations and two glyphs on the same bar - you can only have one active at a time. You'll also likely benefit from playing different professions to get first hand experience as to why some things work and why others don't, plus unlocking more skills is always handy.
-Make yourself the focal point of the team. It's easier to direct heroes this way. Set up your heroes to compliment you, like fitting in Strength of Honor as previously described and Shatter Hex on the mesmer (for damage moreso than the hex removal).
-Your bars lack focus. Remember that you're building a team, not 4/6/8 individual characters. As such, try to get an idea of what each bar is meant to achieve and where it fits on the frontline-midline-backline scale. For example, don't put a self heal on everyone with the expectation they'll primarily be self sufficient and leave the monks to complete auxiliary functions. The monk's job is to keep you alive, so make it the key cog of your defense. There's nothing wrong with self heals (I'd leave them in); it's just that you ought to look at them more as top ups rather than something that's pivotal to your team's success.
-Six man areas are a little annoying. Two backliners tends to seem like too much but one isn't enough. Kryta and the Jungle aren't so bad because the foes aren't outleveling you and they have fewer annoying skills, but the desert leaves you in that awkward not-sure-how-much-defense-to-take situation. When you get through the desert and reach the next area, you'll need two proper backliners. Just fyi.
-You seem to have a fascination with hex removal. Perhaps because of the Wind Rider things in the Jungle? Generally speaking, most hexes that get thrown at you range from irrelevant to mildly annoying. The aim isn't to get rid of all of them, just the ones that are legitimately impairing your effectiveness.
-Don't give the AI skills that need to be used intelligently because they can't do that. See here.
-If a hero has a free secondary and can slot a resurrection skill, it tends to be better to go /Monk or /Rit for a reusable one. People also tend to not put them on their monks as that slot could be used to keep people alive, but it's not a definitive no-no. If you do keep one on Ogden though, make sure to disable (shift-click) it so he doesn't try to rez mid-fight, leaving everyone else to die in the meantime.
Right, build by build:
You've got seven people here. Not sure if you routinely leave one out or switch as needed.
You: Discussed at length already, and you can make the key changes suggested. Flail isn't normally available until the end of NF so you'll need to unlock it first so you can buy it in Kamadan.
Koss: Running this bar on Koss is going to get him slaughtered. Like you, Flail and Lion's Comfort will be much easier than Frenzy + Heal Sig. Two skills that drain all adrenaline is going to severely hamper the usage of any adrenaline skills, especially once you add Flail+LC. I'd add For Great Justice and another adrenaline attack if you can. Alternatively, you can rework his build with Warrior's Endurance when you get it.
Ogden: No two ways about this: the whole bar ought to be scrapped. As previously mentioned, this is the heart of your defense, so you need to get some strong damage mitigation in. Aegis and Protective Spirit are staples, and you'll need Glyph of Lesser Energy (Elementalist) to fuel them. Dwayna's Kiss and Cure Hex (for the heal as much as the hex removal) plus one more (the Word of Healing elite when you capture it in the missions, pick something else for now) to keep red bars up. Drop the smites because they don't belong here. Also skip Healing Breeze because heroes don't use regen spells very well (they'll cast it on someone and then slap a big heal on them... it tends to result in poor usage of energy).
Vekk: Would prefer fire, but air works well enough. Gale probably doesn't work too well because 10 exhaustion with a 5 second recharge is probably going to eat his energy bar. Skills with exhaustion have to be carefully managed, and that's not a strong point for heroes. Also, as per the above link, Teinai's Wind is probably going to make him rush into the melee, so that's not ideal. Lightning Orb can go in to fulfil Air's niche of high single target damage. His secondary is free so Strength of Honor can go here.
Olias: Necromancers, as midliners, are great. The key role you want them to perform - in this case Minion Bombing - often only takes up half the bar, leaving plenty of room for whatever else you could possibly want. The essentials in this case are the animations and Death Nova. Masochism is a key skill too but it's not essential. Spare skills in this case are probably best spent on extra protections. A second copy of Aegis, plus Shielding Hands and whatever else you might want/need at the time are likely the best options. I'm not sure if Enfeebling Blood would still fit if you did that though, which would be a shame, but it works well even with low curses. Could fit on Gwen or Vekk if needed. The blood skills don't add much and are entirely disposable (especially Vamp Touch which will have him entering melee, again, see that link).
Gwen: Bar looks fine. Naturally there are better skills but there aren't any pressing issues.
Jin: As mentioned at the top, two preparations is a no-no. Power Shot isn't +damage; it's just the stated damage. That makes it the poster boy for terrible ranger skills. Find something else.
Right, so I clearly failed to not talk specifically about skills, but I think I've covered the key theory concepts in the process. Again, if there's anything you specifically want clarified, by all means ask.
Duster
Thanks Marty I'm going to put your advice to use, to answer your question about having 7 I sometime swop out Jin and Ogden.
How did you come up with these pros and cons? do you do theory crafting with math calculations or is there another way?
How did you come up with these pros and cons? do you do theory crafting with math calculations or is there another way?
Zahr Dalsk
Should fix Ogden's bar first. Until you do, any other changes to your party are probably not going to be all that successful because your party will still be lacking any effective healing and protection.
I've always understood theorycrafting to be a pejorative term used for when someone is presenting a build or team build that they think is good but haven't tested ingame and perhaps people with more experience see a lot of flaws with it, or conversely when someone is presenting a heavily tested build and inexperienced people attack it just going by what they think even if that contradicts its proven ingame performance.
In other words theorycrafting is when someone forgoes ingame testing in favour of just using theory, which is broadly ok but when it contradicts actual ingame results is bad and earns it the pejorative nickname of theorycrafting.
In this case Marty is just using experience of Guild Wars in a broad sense. The skills he suggests are well known to be good. So if you're wondering how to figure it out too, the answer is mainly to play the game a lot
I've always understood theorycrafting to be a pejorative term used for when someone is presenting a build or team build that they think is good but haven't tested ingame and perhaps people with more experience see a lot of flaws with it, or conversely when someone is presenting a heavily tested build and inexperienced people attack it just going by what they think even if that contradicts its proven ingame performance.
In other words theorycrafting is when someone forgoes ingame testing in favour of just using theory, which is broadly ok but when it contradicts actual ingame results is bad and earns it the pejorative nickname of theorycrafting.
In this case Marty is just using experience of Guild Wars in a broad sense. The skills he suggests are well known to be good. So if you're wondering how to figure it out too, the answer is mainly to play the game a lot
Age
I wouldn't use frernzy as that is more for pvp.
Ogden
WOH,DisMiss Conditions,Cure Hex,Sield of Absorbtion,Protective Spirit,Patient Spirit and Optional
Or you can use Healing Burst instead of WOH.
Attri
9 Divine
12 Healing
14 Protect.
Ogden
WOH,DisMiss Conditions,Cure Hex,Sield of Absorbtion,Protective Spirit,Patient Spirit and Optional
Or you can use Healing Burst instead of WOH.
Attri
9 Divine
12 Healing
14 Protect.
Marty Silverblade
Experience. It's by far the most important and utterly irreplaceable means of developing builds. Crunching numbers is generally more for demonstrating a point, not proving it, or as part of an attempt to establish the viability of a concept. As Zahr points out, there's a certain point where talking about stuff stops being useful and you need to actually means test things. One of the main reasons for this is that it's (number crunching) is inherently limited. An example: how much damage does Cyclone Axe do? The answer is 'that depends'. Depends on how many foes you hit, which depends on the layout of the area and how densely populated it is. Also depends on how well you aggro, and how willing you are to actually do so. Oh, and what else you and your team is running. You can't fit these things into an equation. You can make judgments for specific situations (for example, it's great in the Arborstone mission) but different people get different results in different situations. That's part of what makes a good RPG gameplay experience. Also on this point, there is no such thing as the 'best' build - you'll want to be able to switch things around as needed. Some areas have different needs (like more condition removal), some areas have different party sizes (so you'll need to decide how to reshuffle your skills) and so on.
As for the pros and cons, it's a combination of a few things:
-Understanding what kinds of skills heroes use well (or, more appropriately, which ones they don't).
-Understanding what different professions are good at and how you can maximise their usefulness.
-Making sure you cover some basic principles, both general RPG ones (for example, damage mitigation is superior to healing) and GW specific ones (don't run two preparations on the same character).
Again, it comes back to experience. You'll get a better appreciation for how each professions and their skills work as you play different professions and progress through the content. Some things are not necessarily obvious until you experience it first hand, like how Power Shot works. You keep talking about making calculations and such like you're looking to fine tune your team. Honestly, you're not at that stage. Fix up Ogden and get some melee buffs in (Strength of Honor) and see how much difference that makes.
@Age: From my experience (and those on the wiki) heroes don't use Patient Spirit well, generally for the same reason as Healing Breeze. They also don't use Dismiss Condition to heal. Not sure if you're aware of that.
As for the pros and cons, it's a combination of a few things:
-Understanding what kinds of skills heroes use well (or, more appropriately, which ones they don't).
-Understanding what different professions are good at and how you can maximise their usefulness.
-Making sure you cover some basic principles, both general RPG ones (for example, damage mitigation is superior to healing) and GW specific ones (don't run two preparations on the same character).
Again, it comes back to experience. You'll get a better appreciation for how each professions and their skills work as you play different professions and progress through the content. Some things are not necessarily obvious until you experience it first hand, like how Power Shot works. You keep talking about making calculations and such like you're looking to fine tune your team. Honestly, you're not at that stage. Fix up Ogden and get some melee buffs in (Strength of Honor) and see how much difference that makes.
@Age: From my experience (and those on the wiki) heroes don't use Patient Spirit well, generally for the same reason as Healing Breeze. They also don't use Dismiss Condition to heal. Not sure if you're aware of that.
Blackbirdx61
If I may,
I always suggest to players in your position look at the henchies in your area, they will generally have decent builds using skills that should be available to you; one poster above suggested save yourselves! A great skill, but one a player struggling to cross the crystal desert has about znero chance of having access to; in your case shields up might be your best option.
The desert is tough for a lot of players; sort of gw middle school ; at this point your build can no longer be just about damage; and must balance energy and damage mitagation as well. But it is this delicate balance that for me keeps the game fascinating. Happy hunting and feel free to ping me in game if you see me on
Ign: Claudia de Anar
I always suggest to players in your position look at the henchies in your area, they will generally have decent builds using skills that should be available to you; one poster above suggested save yourselves! A great skill, but one a player struggling to cross the crystal desert has about znero chance of having access to; in your case shields up might be your best option.
The desert is tough for a lot of players; sort of gw middle school ; at this point your build can no longer be just about damage; and must balance energy and damage mitagation as well. But it is this delicate balance that for me keeps the game fascinating. Happy hunting and feel free to ping me in game if you see me on
Ign: Claudia de Anar
Duster
Thanks for all the feed back. Marty I understand what your saying, it seems I have a lot of work to do before I have a half way decent understanding of the game mechanics. I going hit the hit the books so to speak. I try out a few more team builds and see how they work out thanks guys
Age
Talhk and Dunk do use those skills not sure about Oggie.I got him set up as smiter but the Tahk and Dunk both use those skill.I would say that Tahk uses dismiss slighlty better as she is more protect and Dunk does use patient spirit.
I really don't use Oggie that much as I said a smiter as Mo/rt.
To the Op.What is your total build not just skills meaning attributes,runes and insignias.
I see that you have no elite.I would get quivering blade or dragon slash in factions.This is if you want to stick with sword.
It is alwats best to run the desert unless doing a quest.That part of the game hencies don't do well should be 20.
I really don't use Oggie that much as I said a smiter as Mo/rt.
To the Op.What is your total build not just skills meaning attributes,runes and insignias.
I see that you have no elite.I would get quivering blade or dragon slash in factions.This is if you want to stick with sword.
It is alwats best to run the desert unless doing a quest.That part of the game hencies don't do well should be 20.
Marty Silverblade
-It's not about whether they use them, it's about whether they use them properly. With Patient Spirit (and Healing Breeze) sometimes what you'll see is this:
Ogden: "omg! Koss has low health! Heal him!"
*casts Patient Spirit*
Ogden: "omg! Koss has low health! Heal him!"
*casts Dwayna's Kiss*
Koss then gets healed twice, wasting time and energy. It's not unusable, just potentially wasteful.
My comment about Dismiss Condition was regarding that fact it heals enough and recharges quickly enough such that it can act as a basic healing spell in addition to potentially removing a condition, thus saving a slot. However, they only use it to remove conditions, so its slot saving benefit is lost.
-There is no difference in AI between heroes of the same profession.
-Recommending the op travel halfway through Factions to grab elites and run through parts of the game when he's still working through his first campaign isn't particularly helpful.
Ogden: "omg! Koss has low health! Heal him!"
*casts Patient Spirit*
Ogden: "omg! Koss has low health! Heal him!"
*casts Dwayna's Kiss*
Koss then gets healed twice, wasting time and energy. It's not unusable, just potentially wasteful.
My comment about Dismiss Condition was regarding that fact it heals enough and recharges quickly enough such that it can act as a basic healing spell in addition to potentially removing a condition, thus saving a slot. However, they only use it to remove conditions, so its slot saving benefit is lost.
-There is no difference in AI between heroes of the same profession.
-Recommending the op travel halfway through Factions to grab elites and run through parts of the game when he's still working through his first campaign isn't particularly helpful.
Age
You are saying that Ogden uses both those skills at once he casts PS then DK on Koss.
I don't really use Ogden as i said for smiting he uses skills well.The only way is if you do the healing yourself.
You could use mend ailment and just use WoH if he has capped it if he is to early in the campaign then most likely not use Orisons.
That is the way i got my Talkh and Dunk set up and they don't waste casting two skills at once.
I would say if he is having trouble with sword maybe switch to axe might better.
I don't really use Ogden as i said for smiting he uses skills well.The only way is if you do the healing yourself.
You could use mend ailment and just use WoH if he has capped it if he is to early in the campaign then most likely not use Orisons.
That is the way i got my Talkh and Dunk set up and they don't waste casting two skills at once.
I would say if he is having trouble with sword maybe switch to axe might better.
Duster
Thanks guys I reworked the builds of most of my team. I've managed to make my through the desert. Now I'm stuck at Thirsty River I keep dying at the second gate, I haven't managed to get all of the skills you have suggested, these builds seem to be working for me, but I just wanted to ask if there are any major changes you make? Koss so far has been working but I'm still working on him.
My Warrior Monk
• Lion’s comfort
• FGJ
• Sever Artery
• Gash
• Power Attack
• Sun and Moon slash
• Pure Strike
• Rereibution
Koss: Warrior
• Healing signet
• Lion’s comfort
• Mighty Blow
• Irresistible Blow
• Hammer Bash
• Watch Yourself
• Wild Blow
• Resurrection Signet
Ogden : Monk
• Glyph of lesser energy
• Dwayna’s Kiss
• Remove Hex
• Purge Conditions
• Heal Area
• Heal Party
• Healing Seed
• Resurrect
Olias : Nercomancer
• Soul Feast
• Well of Blood
• Animate Bone Minions
• Animate Bone Horror
• Animate Bone Fiend
• Animate Shambling Horror
• Death Nova
• Deathswarm
Gwen : Mesmer
• Cry of Frustration
• Diversion
• Shatter Enchantment
• Ether Feast
• Power Drain
• Hex Breaker
• Energy Tap
• Resurrection Signet
Vekk : Elementalist
• Aura of Restoration
• Fire storm
• Flare
• Conjure Flame
• Lava arrows
• Armour of earth
• Glyph of Lesser Energy
• Blurred Vision
My Warrior Monk
• Lion’s comfort
• FGJ
• Sever Artery
• Gash
• Power Attack
• Sun and Moon slash
• Pure Strike
• Rereibution
Koss: Warrior
• Healing signet
• Lion’s comfort
• Mighty Blow
• Irresistible Blow
• Hammer Bash
• Watch Yourself
• Wild Blow
• Resurrection Signet
Ogden : Monk
• Glyph of lesser energy
• Dwayna’s Kiss
• Remove Hex
• Purge Conditions
• Heal Area
• Heal Party
• Healing Seed
• Resurrect
Olias : Nercomancer
• Soul Feast
• Well of Blood
• Animate Bone Minions
• Animate Bone Horror
• Animate Bone Fiend
• Animate Shambling Horror
• Death Nova
• Deathswarm
Gwen : Mesmer
• Cry of Frustration
• Diversion
• Shatter Enchantment
• Ether Feast
• Power Drain
• Hex Breaker
• Energy Tap
• Resurrection Signet
Vekk : Elementalist
• Aura of Restoration
• Fire storm
• Flare
• Conjure Flame
• Lava arrows
• Armour of earth
• Glyph of Lesser Energy
• Blurred Vision
Marty Silverblade
Previously you had two key issues: lack of damage mitigation and lack of focus. Neither has been addressed.
The key skills you're missing should be easily available to you.
Protective Spirit comes from a quest in the jungle.
Strength of Honor comes from a quest in Ascalon.
Aegis can be bought in The Amnoon Oasis among other places.
Your Warrior is a prophecies native, right?
Now, from the top:
You: IAS is not optional. Honestly, if it was a choice between that bar and Flail + 7 blank slots, I'd seriously be tempted to take the latter. You can unlock it with Balthazar faction and buy it in Kamadan. If you can't/don't want to do that and insist on not using Frenzy, Flurry is probably your next best option. Energy will be a concern though. Retribution, putting aside the fact it isn't particularly good, doesn't belong on your bar. Buffing goes on the midline. That's your Necromancers, Mesmers, Rits, Eles and smite Monks (generally speaking, offensive casters). Sun and Moon Slash is a great pick, though I'm not sure why you took off Galrath Slash.
Koss: Same issues as before. Healing Signet is not the kind of skill you'd run on a hero, and running two self heals is a waste. Add IAS.
Ogden: As mentioned, you should be able to get Prot Spirit and Aegis in. Area heals are never useful (you want to heal the people that need healing, not just whoever happens to be around you at the time). Heal Area is particularly terrible given it heals foes too.
Olias: Two key points here:
-Adding more of the same doesn't make a bar better. Generally one animation spell is sufficient, though running two is ok if you want a mix. Having three or four (or even two if they're not sufficiently different) makes no difference to the output of the bar. Imagine you want to cut up an apple. If you have a knife, then you can do the job. If you have 10 knives, you can do the job, but not any better than before.
-There are two kinds of animation based necromancer and you ought to decide which one you want. A minion bomber focuses on producing weak platforms (minions) as quickly as possible to exploit Death Nova. A minion master (which has nothing to do with actual minions) uses horrors and fiends to deal attack damage and aims to keep them alive via Blood of the Master. The reason you run two types here, among others, is because fiends are ranged, meaning they won't ball up with the horrors and are thus less susceptible to all getting nuked by AoE. Right now the bar is a mish mash of both types. Also add prots as per my previous recommendation. Enfeebling Blood is better than Well of Blood (damage mitigation >>>> healing).
Gwen: No key issues.
Vekk: Same issue again. There's no focus and the bar will suffer for it. What is he meant to be doing? Raw DPS? Utility? Splitting your attributes four ways without adequate justification usually leaves you underperforming in each area. Pick one element (and bring it's attunement), plus energy storage, plus one more attribute. Another elemental one is ok, though consider utility from secondary professions too. He's got plenty of energy for them.
The key skills you're missing should be easily available to you.
Protective Spirit comes from a quest in the jungle.
Strength of Honor comes from a quest in Ascalon.
Aegis can be bought in The Amnoon Oasis among other places.
Your Warrior is a prophecies native, right?
Now, from the top:
You: IAS is not optional. Honestly, if it was a choice between that bar and Flail + 7 blank slots, I'd seriously be tempted to take the latter. You can unlock it with Balthazar faction and buy it in Kamadan. If you can't/don't want to do that and insist on not using Frenzy, Flurry is probably your next best option. Energy will be a concern though. Retribution, putting aside the fact it isn't particularly good, doesn't belong on your bar. Buffing goes on the midline. That's your Necromancers, Mesmers, Rits, Eles and smite Monks (generally speaking, offensive casters). Sun and Moon Slash is a great pick, though I'm not sure why you took off Galrath Slash.
Koss: Same issues as before. Healing Signet is not the kind of skill you'd run on a hero, and running two self heals is a waste. Add IAS.
Ogden: As mentioned, you should be able to get Prot Spirit and Aegis in. Area heals are never useful (you want to heal the people that need healing, not just whoever happens to be around you at the time). Heal Area is particularly terrible given it heals foes too.
Olias: Two key points here:
-Adding more of the same doesn't make a bar better. Generally one animation spell is sufficient, though running two is ok if you want a mix. Having three or four (or even two if they're not sufficiently different) makes no difference to the output of the bar. Imagine you want to cut up an apple. If you have a knife, then you can do the job. If you have 10 knives, you can do the job, but not any better than before.
-There are two kinds of animation based necromancer and you ought to decide which one you want. A minion bomber focuses on producing weak platforms (minions) as quickly as possible to exploit Death Nova. A minion master (which has nothing to do with actual minions) uses horrors and fiends to deal attack damage and aims to keep them alive via Blood of the Master. The reason you run two types here, among others, is because fiends are ranged, meaning they won't ball up with the horrors and are thus less susceptible to all getting nuked by AoE. Right now the bar is a mish mash of both types. Also add prots as per my previous recommendation. Enfeebling Blood is better than Well of Blood (damage mitigation >>>> healing).
Gwen: No key issues.
Vekk: Same issue again. There's no focus and the bar will suffer for it. What is he meant to be doing? Raw DPS? Utility? Splitting your attributes four ways without adequate justification usually leaves you underperforming in each area. Pick one element (and bring it's attunement), plus energy storage, plus one more attribute. Another elemental one is ok, though consider utility from secondary professions too. He's got plenty of energy for them.
Duster
Yes he is looking at where that flail is available in prophecies is to capture it in Orr if I'm not mistaken and I haven't reached it yet. I've been reading your Guide on the warrior and how it works so hopefully this weekend I can try some of the things I've learnt out.
I made a mistake when I was editing my builds list I didn't remove Galrath slash. as for the SoH I found Retribution to be more effective with the mobs I was facing while getting to Thirsty River. I was aware that I could get it in Kamadan I didn't see it on the list. I'll check again tonight. As for Furry I found that I was dying less and doing more damage, though I have been playing around with it, I haven't had much time to play since we last spoke.
With Olias I was attempting to use him to bolster my team numbers and draw the attackers away from Ogden but I see your point I will do more reading into the necro.
Vekk: I just need to get a few more fire skills I thought the Earth armour would be useful to protect him. I though as apposed to going in with two less skills I'd use two that I'd thought may come in handy.
I made a mistake when I was editing my builds list I didn't remove Galrath slash. as for the SoH I found Retribution to be more effective with the mobs I was facing while getting to Thirsty River. I was aware that I could get it in Kamadan I didn't see it on the list. I'll check again tonight. As for Furry I found that I was dying less and doing more damage, though I have been playing around with it, I haven't had much time to play since we last spoke.
With Olias I was attempting to use him to bolster my team numbers and draw the attackers away from Ogden but I see your point I will do more reading into the necro.
Vekk: I just need to get a few more fire skills I thought the Earth armour would be useful to protect him. I though as apposed to going in with two less skills I'd use two that I'd thought may come in handy.
Age
Heal Area in PvE isn't that bad actually when using infuse health.I would suggest ever doing this in pvp.Heal area doesn't cover your aggro.
I would suggest removing it though for say shielding hands or guardian.
It seems like you are making your way through EoTn if so you can cap elites there.You can do Zaichen Arenas battle to gain some Balthazar's faction to unlock skills for your heros and if you get tomps for yourself.
I would suggest removing it though for say shielding hands or guardian.
It seems like you are making your way through EoTn if so you can cap elites there.You can do Zaichen Arenas battle to gain some Balthazar's faction to unlock skills for your heros and if you get tomps for yourself.
Marty Silverblade
Flail needs to be unlocked before you can buy it in Kamadan. Get yourself to Zaishen Challenge and fight the IW team until you reach 1000 Balthazar faction, then speak to a Priest of Balthazar.
I'm in the process of updating the guide. If there's anything you're specifically looking to know, it might be better to post here until I get a new version up. It's up!
Perhaps Retribution does do more for you right now than SoH. Thing is though, as you improve and your skills get better (better aggroing, Whirlwind Attack, IAS) SoH will become more valuable and as you add the necessary damage mitigation (prots, interrupts, Blind/Weakness, etc) Retribution will become less valuable. Either way, it doesn't belong on your bar.
The point with Olias is that you don't need four animation skills to create a flesh wall. Bone Minions are all he needs to be at or near the summoning cap (Death Magic + 2 / 2). I'm not saying that that's a bad strategy (because it isn't), it's just that you don't need four generally similar skills to do it. If he's struggling to do that you're either in an area with a low amount of corpses or your Death Magic isn't high enough to provide the necessary survivability. Another option is to switch to a Minion Master as previously described: Horrors and Fiends stay, switch Death Nova for Blood of the Master. That may provide better protection.
I'm in the process of updating the guide. If there's anything you're specifically looking to know, it might be better to post here until I get a new version up. It's up!
Perhaps Retribution does do more for you right now than SoH. Thing is though, as you improve and your skills get better (better aggroing, Whirlwind Attack, IAS) SoH will become more valuable and as you add the necessary damage mitigation (prots, interrupts, Blind/Weakness, etc) Retribution will become less valuable. Either way, it doesn't belong on your bar.
The point with Olias is that you don't need four animation skills to create a flesh wall. Bone Minions are all he needs to be at or near the summoning cap (Death Magic + 2 / 2). I'm not saying that that's a bad strategy (because it isn't), it's just that you don't need four generally similar skills to do it. If he's struggling to do that you're either in an area with a low amount of corpses or your Death Magic isn't high enough to provide the necessary survivability. Another option is to switch to a Minion Master as previously described: Horrors and Fiends stay, switch Death Nova for Blood of the Master. That may provide better protection.