Melee Hero Challenge

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

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05 Sep 2015 at 02:38 - 1
Hello folks,

A contest.

I'm a 5+ yr GW1 player and an ex-GW2 WvW Guardian Commander (ex cuz I got bored within 2yrs no matter how many PC xpacs they make!). Anyways, to the point. I've struggled mightily into devising an all (HERO) melee team. A task which I've long wanted to do and tried many variations. While each melee prof has a moderate decent self-heal, it's not quite enough at least combos I've tried. I've tried Rangers, Dervs (whom I though might), including transforming Raza into my 4th Derv hero), Warriors (who I also thought might make it) and Sins. Did Anet honestly screw the melee class into second place forever? Perhaps.

Here's my offer. Come up with a hero melee only team that has made it through let's say...Rilohn Refuge. A typical but representative zone. Oh, my only stipulation in HM...heck I've made it far in normal...lol. If you come up with the winning builds, 100k platinum and one armbrace--as a token of my appreciation of your contribution to a fascinating game. Also, I will make a youtube vid with builds, give you credit, and broadcast. Any challengers? Please no theoretics...you must have made it with a minimum (no more than 5) rez's--pref zero.

**I wanted to give an honest ty shout out to Marty Silverblade, who has kept these forums strong...forever. Great job man!


Mandragora Screamer

**Update to questions asked:
1 - Meant The Floodplain of Mahnkelon/Map zone, not Rilohn mission. Reason being is all the varied bosses who will provide a unique challenge. This is not the hardest zone in HM, but representative due to varied bosses. The team should be capable of vanq.
2 - Merc heroes from my perspective are allowed.
3 - Cons, no cons/candy. I have several teams that can vanq/master missions w/o these. The goal is to see the strongest stand alone melee.
4 - Heros/mercs each must participate in melee combat action; i.e., you can use a combat Mes, Rit, etc.
5 - Any combat enhancing spells/chants are acceptable such as Spirit's Strength

What I'm looking for is the team than can optimise dps and healing, those birds in that zone seem to have an infinite supply of mana and spam glimmer of hope for days, so your DSP much reach a certain breakpoint.

Contest will run through 20 Sep when winning build will be posted. It will take me some time to try each team.

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

05 Sep 2015 at 03:11 - 2
Won't be able to try this until tomorrow. Some clarifications I'd like to see in the meantime:

-Must all of the team members be capable of being melee combatants or is your requirement merely being Warrior/Assassin/Derv/Ranger with a melee build? Dervs are psuedo-casters so giving them a staff and having them run more of the traditional mid/backliner stuff would be a starting point for me. Conversely, would a Spirit's Strength Rit or similar be acceptable?

-Is masters completion necessary or is standard ok?

-Are mercenary heroes allowed? I'd vote no; though I'm probably biased.

-What about consumables? I'd really prefer to not use them, though I have no idea exactly how much effect they'd have until I give this a go.

**Thanks.**

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

05 Sep 2015 at 13:17 - 3
Nice challenge.

A useful note is that you need master of whispers to even be able to enter the mission. He was equipped like a touch ranger.



The Drought just died, mission complete ^

It was in HM including the bonus.

The key to a successful melee heavy team lies in interrupts, dwayna, and especially one melandru to keep your guys clean.

Just so you know my heroes had some runes but were far from properly runed up. Also their weapons were whatever was lying around.

Should you regard touchers as non melee, in that they use touch skills rather than melee attack skills like a warrior does, then you could replace the touchers with warriors.

If you do, I am sure it will be even easier as they can bring yet more interrupts.

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

05 Sep 2015 at 22:09 - 4
You changed the terms of the contest midway lol!

So I dont get 100k + armbrace already???

I must say you certainly lowered by the bar by changing the map and allowing mercs. This is just easy now.

And melee combat action??? Please define this clearly.

Also, you say winning build will be posted? You mean we should not even post our builds???

The fact that it is not first past the post, as in fastest clear or something, but is judged based on what you like the most, is an unfair contest and will put people off.

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

06 Sep 2015 at 00:29 - 5
What the OP means/is looking for is a team of people charging around bashing, smashing and stabbing their way to victory. Your touch rangers, while a nice idea, isn't what he wants. I was thinking about this last night and I figured you could put some hard guidelines on it, like requiring each person to have at least 10 points (before runes) in a melee attribute and to have that weapon type equipped at all times. To use my prior examples, it allows Spirit's Strength Rits but not caster Dervs. Only grey area that comes to mind is Illusionary Weaponry (initial thoughts are to not allow it to prevent potential abuse).

No idea on how his judging is going to work though. His post sounds like there's going to be some subjective element to it, which doesn't make for a good contest. Fastest to vanquish could work but would depend on factors like spawns, player skill and such. First past the post is also unfair as it depends on when you find out about the contest - I'd almost definitely have beaten you if I hadn't have had to leave my PC after posting. Tbh I'd have preferred if this wasn't a contest so that people could create builds just for the sake of it rather than have people get all worked up about judging and whatnot.

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

06 Sep 2015 at 09:45 - 6
Illusionary weaponry...haha. One strip and you are useless.

The OP's terms are not clear but what seems obvious is that they go against what GW is about.

His question is along the lines of whether an 8 man melee team can work or whether it is too weak to vanquish that map.

The problem is that a melee team needs support to be effective, in the same way that caster teams need it.

Paragons are obviously good for an all melee team, but the requirement does not allow them. (inb4 sword paragon, gtfo!)

This is not a fair comparison with casters to begin with.

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

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06 Sep 2015 at 19:48 - 7
Hello again. I think most of you are making more of this than my original intent...think Occam's razor.

As someone mentioned, the goal of this team is a simple brawling group of heros/mercs that can all contribute/synergize nicely and complete the vanq. -- preferably with no death penalty or even a positive morale (which I can do easily in HM with a caster team). Has zero to do with time/speed, more I'd prefer how well the team survives initial blitz's while overcoming DPS needed for bosses/healing mobs. Each hero/merc must have/use a martial weapon. Illu. Weap is allowed but as someone pointed out, can get stripped easily. I was more inclined to include wars/dervs/sins/para/rangers, but other profs can be used.

I'm not a GW1 expert by any stretch and the intent of this contest was to simply generate some enthusiasm and interest from the community still playing. There are literally thousands upon thousands of combinations / permutations of skills. So my goal is to reach out to the community (at least I had thought in a fun way) to gain your knowledge on the subject. Surely there is a synergy that you may have had some success with that I did not. That said, here is an example of what I'm talking about and a team I tried:



Derv hero: OgCjwypoqOw3pb6t7Tu/+h37L
War hero: OQMTETaW5pvAX4K8l92Vhn8XB

What I saw here was NPC's blitzing a single hero/merc at a time (e.g. Koss got literally stomped in seconds even with full armor/shield/watch yourself). And yes my dervs had +1 on scythes.

Comments:
@Tyran:
-I have to respectfully disagree with your comment regarding mercs. They are a standing part of the game at this point and have been for a few years.
-With regards to changing map, my apologies I had originally meant to post the zone/vanq not the mission. But I disagree it's easier than the mission, just the opposite in my experience. The varied bosses of the zone will ensure that a melee has to be prepared for all types of damage...not just one or two. -I'm also not new to touch-rangers but not what I'm asking for...try them on Admiral Kaya or Buhon Icelord.
-Yes please do post your recommended builds (codes preferred as well just as a time saver for readers)
-I guess an all-para team meets the parameters...but could they meet this challenge?

@Marty:
In retrospect, I have to agree this probably would have been btr approached not as a contest but just a simple challenge. (note to self...do not post contest after a cpl drinks!). But I will honor my original statement. Perhaps I should have done a 1st/2nd/3rd.

Pleikki

Pleikki

WTB q8 15^50 Weapons!

Join Date: Nov 2006

???oo ???ugs ???lan [?????????]

07 Sep 2015 at 12:42 - 8


here claiming the bounty for zephyr

hes on screen

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

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08 Sep 2015 at 03:36 - 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleikki View Post

Zephyr of Light

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

08 Sep 2015 at 17:32 - 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragora Screamer View Post
The contest is not about if you can cut and paste from PvX either or repost of old builds. Alright, I wish you and anyone goodluck with that because Hero AI is limited to what it can do.
Scatters on the slightest PBAoE, Entire team gets CC'd by obvious balling and will fail to survive 100b, Splinter, Inep - any AoE skill that affects adjecent/nearby.

Pet rangers will fail, Assassin's will fail, Warriors will fail, Paragon stack will fail.
A combination of either, will also fail.
I'm not even going to try to spend resources on making things work that has proven not to work, hence why everybody stacks casters other then melee.

Zeph.

Schmerdro

Schmerdro

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

Canada

N/

08 Sep 2015 at 19:26 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragora Screamer View Post
you have no points in the primary martial weapon
[...]
Also I see a...summons? Same as a con--not allowed.
You should have clarified this before Zephyr of Light spent more than 40 minutes of his time, trying to participate in your contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragora Screamer View Post
The contest is not about if you can cut and paste from PvX either or repost of old builds This game hasn't had a significant skill update since September 2012, about 3 years ago. So if anybody is going to post a team build, it's likely going to be at least 2 years old. So I'm not sure what kind of "outside the box thinking" you're expecting.

Also, I find it really silly that anybody still tries to take ownership of various builds. Just because a certain person was the first to post it on a public forum, doesn't mean that person is the first one to have thought and used it. And what do you even have to gain from saying that a certain build "was made" by a certain person? Just be glad people are having fun with it and maybe go play some GW.

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

09 Sep 2015 at 00:54 - 12
OP,

The requirements you ask for, like little or no res, no support, etc is more-or-less restricting us to a dervish stack.

If you allowed more reliance on res, and changed the requirement to 6 martial and the rest support, then that would allow more room for interesting builds.

I say this because at the moment skills like order of the vampire or many rit weapon spells are not allowed even though they were meant for martial professions.

Change this and we can come up with creative builds.

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

Double Bock

P/W

09 Sep 2015 at 19:50 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light View Post
Alright, I wish you and anyone good luck with that because Hero AI is limited to what it can do.
Scatters on the slightest PBAoE, Entire team gets CC'd by obvious balling and will fail to survive 100b, Splinter, Inep - any AoE skill that affects adjacent/nearby.

Pet rangers will fail, Assassin's will fail, Warriors will fail, Paragon stack will fail. A combination of either, will also fail. I'm not even going to try to spend resources on making things work that has proven not to work, hence why everybody stacks casters other then melee.

Zeph.
Agree with the AoE statement. You may be 100% correct here regarding stacks. I guess that is the point of my contest, to see if such a build can be put together or not. I realize 1000's of potential melee builds have been tried and failed as an entire team. This was simply a last attempt to see if anyone has been/can be successful with an all melee team.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster View Post
OP,

The requirements you ask for, like little or no res, no support, etc is more-or-less restricting us to a dervish stack.

If you allowed more reliance on res, and changed the requirement to 6 martial and the rest support, then that would allow more room for interesting builds.

I say this because at the moment skills like order of the vampire or many rit weapon spells are not allowed even though they were meant for martial professions.

Change this and we can come up with creative builds. I never stated res/support skills couldn't be used, only that a martial weapon must be the primary source of damage, hence a brawling team. While res skills are also fine, vanq'ing an area and ending up with 40-60% DP is not quite what I'd call overly successful.

Again, rit weapon/support skills are allowed, but the primary damage should come from weapon action (bow, dagger, sword, spear, etc.); but realize again there is a breakpoint of minimum DPS to be achieved to bring down the mobs in HM. If you have a N/P combo with orders slinging a spear...that's cool.

Perhaps what I'm hoping for cannot be built based upon the nature of AI in it's current state; but I wanted to give it one last mighty shot before giving up. Myself, I've been trying numerous ranger, derv, and sin builds to see how far they get. While promising in some areas, utter failure in others.

Even the first group right out of the gate of Floodplain put on 48x Rending Aura and 8x Reaper's sweep...I mean frick! Wish my team could lay that out and live more than 5 sec! lol.

If this challenge ends with no truly viable builds in sight, next round I'd open it up to 6-melee and 2 support.

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

Double Bock

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11 Sep 2015 at 03:45 - 14
Each day now...I'm feeling such a build doesn't exist. I've come close, and will share my closest build near the deadline. I'd encourage each of you...one last best shot? Trying to make it worth you're while.

Mandragora Scream

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

11 Sep 2015 at 18:26 - 15
Don't give up hope OP, there are numerous solutions out there.

I have to say that I agree that Dwayna's dervishes make it a bit too easy, so I go with something else.

Will share my build at a later date.

Zephyr of Light

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

11 Sep 2015 at 21:42 - 16
A while ago on some facebook guildwars page, a guy posted a screenshot of himself at the FoW chest with Warriors and Rangers only with limited healing.
This of course is quite an achievement for that guy praising either his skill level, or his patience for taking 2+ hours to complete it.

What I want too say with this, is that certain things are possible but adds no real value to general usage.
I think what a good hero stack makes is not if its an obvious thing to do, or is some repost of what already exists, but whether it simply has proven itself to do what it theoretically should be capable of in many different scenarios and areas.
The simple equation is can your hero (with support of the team while taking 10 on his own to let them block, over-armor, gain health, deal damage and take damage) do more than their opponents can.
It always simply comes down that spells (*flash* enchantments, enches, stances) is what gives them the surviving edge and always will rely on that.

Dervish has proven even after all the updates, that it can do all of those things when stacked together.
And my personal experience with Rangers, Warriors, Paragons, and Assassins has not shown me that there is any reason why I should take them over what actually works, Dervs.
though its not the creativity you seek, but I will not spend resources on things that dont work in the longrun.

Just my $0.2

*lotsa edits*

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

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16 Sep 2015 at 00:54 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light View Post
[removed]...but I will not spend resources on things that dont work in the longrun.

Just my $0.2

*lotsa edits* I understand, but no one really asked you to. This was offered as a contest.

Mandragora

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Just a quick update, if anyone has a team they like to submit for consideration, please post builds by Sep 18th to allow a day or so to try out. I will try each team submission out to the best of my ability and assess strengths/weaknesses. Please ensure you list weaps, runes/sigs, and ofc build codes. I'm hopeful someone has some interesting/unique teams!

Results to be posted Sep 20th. If a winner is found, rewards will be given in Kamadan @ 8:00pm CST/US...

Cheers,

Mandragora

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

Double Bock

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20 Sep 2015 at 23:57 - 18
Hmmm, well…I’m supposing there simply was a lack of interest in this challenge. Time is up with no proposed teams. A shame, as I have designed a melee only team that meets the challenge, all hero’s no less, just changing Razah to a Derv.

My purpose was to reach out to the remaining community and pick your brains a tad if such a team could be built and how to make it better, while trying to make it financially worth your time. Perhaps the framework of the contest lacked a bit and that is my fault. We still have many talented players and please don’t feel I was just shooting ideas down for the heck of it. Honestly wanted to see if melee only teams could hold their own weight in a representative vanq. I tried many variations of melee (all ranger team, para/war team, sins, dervs, and mixed). So, below is the team build I came up with and build codes, with some commentary on what each brings to the team.



Main player: OgGjkqqILTvX7giedfYXfXhXlX
- AoD Derv: lose 1 hex/plus heals. Whirlwind will generally trigger enough adrenaline gain to fuel SY! Grenth’s aura for heal, Balthazar’s rage additional DPS and to trigger the Para’s “ToF!” for damage reduction, Mystic vigor/Vow of Piety (more selfheal/armor), Faithful intervention very much needed as you will get focused on occasion.

Derv hero 1-3: OgCjkiqKLPvXBM6t7Tu/uh38L
- AoD dervs with plenty of AoE, interrupts, defense, and party/selfheal’s

Derv hero 4: OgCjkiqKLPyXBM6t7Tu/uh38L
- AoM derv needed for condi removal

War hero 5: OQATEVqW3pvAX4K8l0yVhn8XB
- Brings AoE, and constant “Watch Yourself” +20 armor to the team – very tough toon

Para hero 1: OQWkMMlpZiyjubEWhRxn4esF2HD
- Excellent hex remover, fuels burning on mobs and hence damage reduction with “ToF!” which is constant between 2 para’s. GFTE good damage increase for melee and party-wide heals with “Never Surrender!”

Para hero 2: OQWkMElqpiujubEGkHx+4es7WeD
- Hex remover, damage reduction (ToF!), and party heals “NS!”

Weaps (15/50)/runes/insig as you would expect for how each toon is designed. Good success on each of the various bosses, able to vanq and have a nice positive team morale with few wipes (mostly over-agrro). Admiral Kaya’s group will probably wipe you at least once or twice due to his group constantly spamming Spirit Shackles.

So having undergone this exercise, a melee team can be put together that is capable of many HM areas. It’s a shame that a handful of skills have the ability to shut melee down so utterly though:

-Vocal minority, Shadow of Fear, Weakness, etc.
- Spirit shackles, Ancestor's Visage/Sympathetic Visage, etc.

Plus a handful of other necro/mes hexes. That being the case, it just doesn’t justify the hassle to having a melee only team. Even with all the interrupts/hex removal my example team brings—it’s not enough to make it “fun” – in fact it’s a royal pain watching melee trying to get to that one caster spamming hexes at the speed of light in HM.

That said, this team would probably steam roll in normal mode (not including dungeons, which I haven’t tried with this team).

Ah well. NA Blade & Soul is out soon, thank goodness! Game well!

Mandragora

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

21 Sep 2015 at 00:30 - 19
Uh... spears aren't melee. Your build is disqualified. The word you're looking for is martial.

Anyway, the reason I didn't end up submitting anything was because the parameters didn't make it particularly interesting. Best course of action is to start with some dervs, then add some more, then add some more. If you open it up a little more as Tyran suggested - allowing a support char or two - many types of physway setups become possible.

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

Double Bock

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23 Sep 2015 at 01:27 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade View Post
Uh... spears aren't melee. Your build is disqualified. The word you're looking for is martial.

Anyway, the reason I didn't end up submitting anything was because the parameters didn't make it particularly interesting. Best course of action is to start with some dervs, then add some more, then add some more. If you open it up a little more as Tyran suggested - allowing a support char or two - many types of physway setups become possible. @Marty Silverblade

I believe your response for an admin, is utterly rude...dolt. This game is dieing mightily, every single day. Really no excuse.

"Uh... spears aren't melee. Your build is disqualified. The word you're looking for is martial."

I said that in my 2nd post (even boldfaced)...hmm? Try reading before you spout.

Parameters made it all interesting you rug...NOT ONE BUILD ON PVX HAS ALL MARTIAL/MELEE BUILD. Hmm? Argue that.

At least I posted something that does work instead of feeling superior. With all due respect, Zeph's builds are mostly shit. You have to position here, lead with X, etc...I guess he has enough fanboi's who haven't really made time to think for themselves. I've tried many of them and not impressed.

My build work's when no one else would post. I tried to make it interesting with a financial reward as well.

My last last post to Campfire as obviously the remaining voices in GW1 will feel hurt as to any new ideas.

Mandragora

Marty Silverblade

Marty Silverblade

Administrator

Join Date: Jun 2006

24 Sep 2015 at 00:57 - 21
I'm going to disregard the (unnecessary and unwarranted) personal comments. There's life left in this thread and I want to see it through. PM me if you feel the need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandragora Screamer
Parameters made it all interesting That's your opinion. I hold the opposite opinion; one that is supported through the thread. You want for people to be creative - there are certainly people willing to indulge you (the financial incentive was unnecessary) - but your parameters basically force us to run a derv stack. You said it yourself: you've tried everything under the sun and ended up with dervs. Look at what's happened in this thread. When I made my first post, I was thinking of using Dwayna dervs as a psuedo backline. Tyran then posts with the same idea. Then Pleikki. Then, eventually, you too. Frankly, this challenge isn't about who can develop the best builds, it's about who can best optimise their derv stack.

A successful team ought to have a frontline, midline and backline. Running only frontliners is doomed to fail. You cannot succeed without sufficient healing, damage mitigation, crowd control, etc. While frontliners can include some of these elements, they exist for a supplementary role rather than to do the bulk of the work. You need a derv stack because they can sit comfortably across all three lines. Forcing us to use only frontliners means committing to making significant build sins. It takes a hell of a lot to make up for that; and when that happens a lot of the time it greatly reduces the scope of viable options. I had a few workable ideas but it's a struggle to try to forget about how much better off you're likely to be by just chucking in another derv. Out of curiosity, I'd like to see you run that build again, but with anything else of your choice in place of SY. I'd wager you'll get your ass handed to you. If that's the case, it just goes to show how significant the hole you're putting us in is, and despite the ToF synergies and everything else, you need something as grossly overpowered as SY to overcome it.

Anyway, I won't beat a dead horse. The other reason your challenge wasn't of much interest was because it was effectively a yes or no question. You asked whether something was possible. When a solution is found a lot of the interest will dissipate. To create a good challenge - one that will foster competition - you need to find something that's doubtlessly possible but is a matter of finding the best way to do it. Some ideas off the top of my head:
-A rainbow physway, where you have two support chars and then one of each physical profession plus a caster profession running a weapon build.
-A caster physway, where the 5-6 physicals all need to be caster primaries. Perhaps push the idea to the extreme, ditching the physway concept and simply needing to have 5-6 casters who exist near exclusively in melee range.

You can use something like Raisu Palace HM as a means of objectively judging their effectiveness.

Mandragora Screamer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2014

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23 Nov 2015 at 23:33 - 22
/Nod. Much of what you said makes absolute sense. No argument. My entire goal was to see if an entire Melee team could make it. The answer is no. Not dervs, para's wars, sins, or rangers (sniff). I've had the luxury to try them (100%) all as mercs. At the same time, its quite a shame. That said, I've come up with some new builds...melee driven...but monk owned. On reddit. Apologies for my harshness, forgive me


MS