I agree with the grind thread

Many people don't understand why some of us hold grudge against the thought of "having to work to unlock X". People would say, "GW has close to no grind compare to (insert a MMORPG here)." What they fail to realize is that Guild Wars was set out to create a new genre itself, hence it's senseless to compare the grind level between GW and other mmorpgs. I'm not trying to define what an action online rpg really presents to the players. However, when someone tries to make comparison from GW to say, L2, I can also argue that GW has way too much grind compare to a online shooting game like CS. The absurdity speaks for itself.

I preordered the game before it came out, because I like what I saw from the preview/beta weekends. This game eliminats a lot of the PvE/PvP griefing tatics from traditional MMOs and encourages players to form guilds to compete. The idea of rewarding wins to the more skillful player over a player who has more spare time to play this game is a breakthrough from the MMO stereotype. This idea drawed a lot of fans from other game genres, or people who simply hated the idea of grinding to GW.

We knew that in retail, we need to spend time building our characters, because the skills for PvP characters would not be unlocked like it was in the beta weekends. However, I didn't expect to actually having to go through the whole map to find skills that I need for a certain build. Right now, hardcore PvPers are forced to grind even more than casual players who prefer PvE over PvP, so that they can unlock the skills, items and runes they need for PvP.

I too want to take my time and play missions and quests the way they are meant to be played. The game content is beautiful and I do care about the story development. On the other hand, these opportunities to enjoy the game are eliminated because we also want to play PvP at a playing field leveled by Arenanet. We want to compete in a world where we know that we are playing with and against characters that are carefully built, with the best available skills, items and runes. We don't want a skill that doesn't fit in our builds, and we don't want a win over someone else who don't have their best prepped character.

The game content is fine, but you know a system is wacked when those who hate grinding the most end up grinding a lot more. I hope Arenanet to hear the population that grinds for PvP (ironically) and regcognize this problem in the system they implemented.

I've given it some thought. I just realized that as a primarily pve player I really have no reason to care how the pvp players get there skills and equipment. It does not affect me in anyway. I'm not going to be competitive against the hardcore pvp's no matter what. Let them unlock things by winning a "mini-tournament", let them have an unlock all button. It really doesn't matter to me. (actually the mini-tournament thing sounds kinda fun)

Blackace, Blackace, Blackace, don't be to harsh on the little ones. Time will make them smarter.

I believe the creation of skills from quests stopped that in some way.

--Ginko

PvE has so much potential if a guild uses it right. Can you think of a better way to teach new players the game with out them spending countless hours looking for a pick-up team? Can you think of a better way to screen and train new guild members in teamwork and communication? What about as a testing ground new ideas?

You have been given a powerful tool. If you don't want to use it, that is up to you.


Lazarus

Yet another thread and yet another warning that people need to shape up or be shipped out. There is such a thing as being able to disagree with someone without totally devaluing their position, you know. Also, and I can't stress this enough DON'T TALK ABOUT THE BOARDS ON THE BOARDS. Such metaposting is always off-topic and if you want to talk about why something was closed or whether a topic is valid you can do so on the Site Feedback board which we've established to be transparent about tushc things or through PMs - I cannot promise to immediately respond to everything, as you might imagine things are rather busy and I am far from omniscient, but I will promise to eventually give all your concerns and comments the due attention they deserve. Despite what you might think I do not relish closing threads and deleting posts and have no desire to do so nor do any of my actions stem from something as base and petty as anger. This issue is one which many want to discuss and it is one that will be discussed. However, it will be discussed according to the high standards to which this site and each and every poster here is held. When things get out of hand, that's when I step in. And believe me, nothing is more out of hand than telling your fellow posters not to post for any reason whatsoever. Knock it off. If you think a thread is a problem and people shouldn't be posting there report it and stay well clear of it.

Ah, I knew there was a reason I haven't banned your trolling ass just yet. And it's that every so often you can drop the attitude and make lucid comments like that. Must be a full moon tonight...

And just why wouldn't they think that in a game based on skill and strategy that someone with natural talents might not be able to excel and compete with those who've devoted time and energy into improving? To use an analogy, say there's a pick-up basketball game, and you happen to be walking by and someone calls out your name and asks you to take part. If you've never picked up a basketball before you're not going to be a good player. No where near as good as if you'd just come from the gym for your daily routine of a four hour basketball practice session which you've been following for the past four years. However, what if instead of practicing basketball you'd been practicing football or rugby or some other sort of athletic endevour. You might not fully understand the game but you know that you have some natural athletic ability that just might make up for your lack of experience.

And that's the crux of the issue for those of us who see this as a problem. Someone walking in off the street has no chance. Not a fair chance, not a decent chance, not even a fighting chance, not compared with someone who's put in long hard hours. That, in order to be on a level playing field with someone at your skill level you'll need to put in long hours of farming and unlocking and everything else so that you have that fair, 50/50 shot. When skill is equal then it's something else that's going to be decisive and equipment or a character's known skills can be that factor. And the size of that factor and just how much of an advantage having an elite skill while your opponent does not or a superior attribute rune while your opponent does not is not absolute but it is immense to the point where it verges on being absolute. Take a player who's just installed the game and a pklayer who's spent 200 hours unlocking and farming and the new player's going to have to be absolutely phenomenal to overcome that disadvantage. And while there never will be a truly equal playing field, especially not in a game like GW, there can be a much more equal one than currently exists and the issue is how to do so without taking away from what's already there.

For me, like many things, this falls to the heart of the game - the skill system. Skill acquisition is the root of the problem here. It's what's been changed and it's what people are having the most "grind" dealing with. To say that solving this requires unlocking all skills or somehow eliminating that RPG sense of progression and acquisition is as wrongheaded as to say there is no problem for anyone whatsoever and the game is fine. GW is an RPG at least in terms of a computer game and what that means is that rather than playing a role you play a character who can steadily gain in power and effectiveness as you play which encourages you to play just a little bit longer, to explore just a little bit more, and to get just that one last bit of XP before you call it a day. That's all well and good. GW's chief "innovation" here, though, is to change the standard leveling treadmill of the more traditional RPG into not simply a race to the cap to hit harder and faster, to be strictly more powerful, but to achieve progression through diversity. Your character starts out limited and as you play you'll uncover and learn more and more to make them more effective and in the end while they won't be much more stronger than where they started they'll be much better equiped to deal with situations because they'll have options better suited to this or that circumstance.

Let us be clear, you do not have to unlock all the skills and every upgrade in the game in order to play PvP. Anyone can drop into PvP at any time. What the problem is, though, is that doesn't mean that such PvP is necessarily good PvP or that those who've spent more time unlocking things do not have a decided advantage. It just means PvP is accessible and can be enjoyable if you don't mind that those who've ignored can have an advantage you can't overcome. For competition, which is what the hardcore PvP player is really looking for to take place there needs to be a level playing field. Rolling over scrubs is as little fun to the experienced as getting steamrolled before you know what's happening is for the inferior team. So, the more two teams are equivalent the better a matchup they'll have.

These are two conflicting tendancies. The RPG section of the game requires progression, requires that characters grow and advance and earn their way through the game and its rewards and to do so not everything can be available at once to anyone. There must be a scarcity of resources - whether that's skills or armor or gold or anything else. While the PvP section works best when everyone is drawing from the same pool, when you're not being beaten by the game but by the strategy and tactics of the other team and their better ability to use what everyone has available. And the key there is that although everyone could use the same things there's far too much for anyone to ever use everything all at once, teams and players must pick and choose what they want from amongst a diverse array of options. Scarcity and diversity are irreconcilible. You cannot have a scarece item and still have it be available to a diverse amount of people. And if such items offer any advantage - which they must if they're to be valuable enough to be worth finding (For an example of this just look to the items available from collectors. If they're nothing special then why would you go out of your way to find those collectors and to acrue the goods necessary to trade? But if a collector has something you want then you'll be happy to work at it in order to get that item) - then they upset the delicate balance of things by creating an asymetry in the distribution of power amongst that diversity. How then to reconcile them as must be done if GW is to remain a game we can all play and enjoy?

The answer is simple, yet apparently profound, and it's already in the game. It's just been abused and neglected for so long we almost ignore it today. The skill point. Learning a skill costs your character a skill point which is earned through adventuring. But it's you and you alone who's deciding how to spend that skill point and, all things being equal, skillfully spending that limited resource can gain you an advantage. Unlocking *everything* requires a large amount of skill points. But to unlock a small section doesn't require that many and since you can pick and choose which skills on which to spend you can unlock the *right* skills - the ones you need to come up with a build or two to be competitive. The problem, though, is that skill points have been marginalized. You don't need to spend them at all to earn a skill from a quest reward, for one. You'll eventually be required to earn massive amounts of XP in order to earn more skill points once you've "finished" leveling. And, most damning of all, the selection and availability of skills on which to spend your points is extremely limited, especially as most skills you can spend a skill point on can be obtained through other means. Why would you ever buy the Resurrection Signet, for example, and waste a skill point on it when you could get it for free from a quest? Most skill trainers offer a handful of skills and while as you go along you'll encounter more trainers with more skills that requires yet more time and yet more effort as you chase the carrot of better skills. And to find the right boss for a skill you want to capture is likewise an arduous and random process.

And it's that limitation - either the poor selection or the random, out-of-your-hands availability - of things that's causing the trouble. It's out of your control. It's not a matter of skill to reach the area with the right trainer or the right quest or to luck out and find the right boss, it's a matter of time invested (And yes, missions and questing take some skill to get through, sure, but by and large simply plugging away at things will get you through most of the PvE content). All as you chase after improving yourself. There shouldn't *be* better skills (And we'll leave aside the argument about elite skills and just how they break this paradigm for the moment). Just more diversity. It's not power you're chasing, it's options.

So, here's why skill points are the solution. You make them matter once again. You make it so that there's no way to get around having to spend one to gain a skill. At the same time you make it so that you *can* spend one on a diverse assortment of skills at any given time. Expand skill trainer lists not by adding a few skills but by orders of magnitude. They had four skills? Let them have forty. But let us decide which ones we want from them. Quest rewards shouldn't be static. Instead, let every quest award a character not two or three skills but two or three skill points and let them select from eight or ten skills or a player could choose none at all and head to the trainer with the skills they *do* want. Any skill you can capture should be available somewhere else including elites. And "leveling" past 20 should be drastically reduced. Instead of taking tens of thousands of XP for each additional skill point it could take merely a few thousand.

Then anyone can gather ten or twenty good, solid skills in short order and then head off to PvP. If they need more skills, if they need more option they can come back and earn more skill points in whatever way possible to aquire them. Skill points would matter. Progressing to earn them would matter. And because skill points would be an accomplishment what you buy with them would be an accomplishment, too, keeping skills as a valuable resource. But what matters more is how you, the player, make use of them. It's your intelligence, your understanding, and your ability - your skill - that lets you find the best skills for you. Gathering that selection of good skills become an easy matter, a quick matter, and a non-repitious matter yet to gather every last skill would be a time intensive and rewarding but still optional undertaking. People don't need 150 skills to be competitive, after all. They just need the right 20 or 30, if that. Make it easier for people to find *a* skill and harder for them to have *every* skill and I think the complaints about grinding for skills would evaporate.

As for item grinding, I'd give out runes and upgrades as quest rewards instead of foci and swords and other items. Again, it's the randomness of it that leads to grind. If people can control things, if they can select their own rewards and work to find them, then it's not a repetitive grind with an uncertain payout, it's a task with a well-earned reward. Will it take time? Will it take effort? Sure, but at least you'll know what you're getting.

Excellent suggestion by Sausaletus Rex; I sincerely hope something is implemented in the near future or I'll likely be returning to WoW with much chagrin.

Another idea they might implemement that might cut down on the griping and make people try to work harder IN PvP, would rather than a win in the HoH getting the team a Celectial Sigil by default, allow the winners to unlock a skill as different option.. one for each player of course..

The thing is I know from experience that as a lvl 18 with very few upgrades I was still somewhat competative with the 20th lvl PvP players in the arena. All the skills and runes and weapon upgrades are great, but they do balance out quite a bit. I might have a superior rune of ladidah, but I also lose 75 health for the priviledge of dishing out a lil extra damage and therefore die a bit easier. The grind/farming is an option. You can only use a grand total of 5 runes at a time and 2 weapon upgrades and correct me if I'm wrong, but also only 1 Elite skill at a time.. So its really not THAT big a deal to not have ALL of it when only having a few is just about as good.

Go with what you have and if you've taken enough time either in PvP or PvE to learn how your character build works, you'll do pretty well in battle.. It is a matter of skill in the end, not necesarily the SKILLS or any of the other lovely doodads you cobble together

HoH unlocking would still take 2 months or so.... and that would be for a good well ordered team.

I think a lot of changes must be done.

Right now, skill grinding, item grinding, and rune grinding is too much of a problem. A simple but unelegant fix would be "unlock everything for pvp"

I agree with this post completely. I was bragging about this game all through beta and come release my joy was short lived. I really do not see myself playing much in the future with the way the skills are set up in the game now. I hate to say it but I find myself drifting back towards WoW and DAOC instead of the constant pvp I did during the bwe. This game was very fun and relatively stress free during the beta weekends, but now its where do I go for this spell or did I miss a quest for this skill. No part of the game was forced on us during bwe and that was what made this game so appealing.

The name Guild Wars comes from the wars that weakened all three kingdoms to the point that the charr invasion was succesfull.

This a game that has woven both PvP and PvE together. To try and seperate them would result in two different games, and is not need for this game.

EDIT: To BE|Dac, I TOLD Blackace that this would happen in the other thread. Unlock everything for PvP, hell no. I play both and if this was impimented my RP char would be at such a dissadvantage it aint even funney.

If this is brought up in a few months I think the responces will be markedly different.

GUILD WARS BECOMES A GRIND.

After you finish the story, because you lose the abbundance in skill points, that you dont have enough to unlock your skills.

I spent 80 hours in the first week playing the game story it was great! I had no quarm with how it was setup in relation to PvE and PvP.

But then I finished and there were no more levels to unlock skill points, the way level 20 is setup and getting experience I was getting basically nothing so it was harder to progress to unlock points that way, there is JUST NO WAY to unlock the points to get the skills... Not unless you are willing to grind monster after monster for what I calculated as 400 hours, to get enough skill points to unlock all the skill in just my two classes, ranger/mesmer. No point changing my secondary profession, because I will have no points to spend on getting skills unless I want to do more grinding.

Since I have come to this stage I am over the game, I spent only 10 hours on it this week and am thinking of giving it up all together and not playing a game with this type of skill system.

As you get near the end of the game it becomes apparent that it is rushed and I think they did not go through the thoughts of what happens with the skill system at the end of the game.

It becomes unviable unless you are willing to grind hundreds of hours of killing the same mobs over and over to unlock the skill points left to get the skills.

(Yes I have done most of the optional quests and been to all the towns and areas, it is just impossible without grinding.)

Once more people finish the game and find this is the case I think the reaction to guild wars and its `grindlessness`will be different.

I had so much more enjoyment from teh way the beta was setup because it didnt force you in anything, if only guildwars was like the beta and not something totally different from what they had been testing, I think the responces would have been much different to their beta tests at that time.

OR, (and this is what most peopel do) you start a new char and try your hand at that.

Also, you can get a majority of the skills just by doing the need quests, if you did this you have NO use for skill pts. Untill of course you get to the point that you just start buying them.

What you are suggesting is forcing pvp people to pve and that is not gonna happen. I have been through the game once and I will not do it again just to unlock classes. The game is to boring a second time around. I have no problem with people that want to pve. I say let them do it to there hearts content but do not force the players that want to just pvp go through the story several times just to unlock all the classes abilities. PvE character are seperate from roleplay so what would be the impact of allowing pvp people access to all the skills.

I spent roughly 100 hours in the first 10 days of release and most of that was grinding to get runes, weapon specs unlocked or just trying to capture skills. I still don't have the skills I want for my character and the only thing I have really accomplished was raising my bank account to 25 platnium and unlocked several minor runes and some hafts for my hammer. I also got 6 or 7 fiery dragon swords which I stopped selling and just started giving away. I will not go through that again with another character and if it isn't changed to how it was in the bwe I will just move on to another game. This isn't a threat to those that will say don't let the door hit you on the way out, it is just what will happen. I am sure I wont be the only one who does leave because of this.

This is ONE game not TWO games. Of course the PvP players are going to have to PvE

The way the pvp is in the game right now makes the casual gamers much less effective. If you were to take two equally skilled teams, make one team the casual gamer team and the other team the grinding team, over the course of a 100 matches the grinding team would win the clear majority. Even though they both had the same skill level the team with the runes, weapon parts and elite skills would come out on top because they had the edge and that is not what this game was advertised as.

This game is suppose to award skill over time played and it never will with this setup. This game is built around pvp and in order to do it effectively you have to put a timesink of 100's of hours just to unlock every characters skills, runes and weapon parts. This isn't the game I thought I was buying.

Well besides the leaving pre for post-serian anyway.

The point that I am trying to make is that PvP players shouldnt expect to be able to gain everything from PvP. When i first started learning about this game it was understood that PvP would be the end-game. I just feel that now PvP players are trying to to get everything for nothing (I know that it isent what all PvP want, but i still have that fear)

I did see a nifty idea about this though, I was that if you beat the gane once in PvE, you then will be able to unlock items/skills every 15 fame. That would still be grind in some peopel eyes, but a PvPer wouldnt have to go back through the PvE.


EDIT: A grinder team is not a casual team, and of course the grinder team win. They will be the most skilled at the game. Items give you an edge nothing more, but a better skilled team will win every time.

The thing is once you get so far into the game with a PvE character and want a diversion with a bit of PvP, you are in the SAME arenas with the PvP only characters. So if there were an option for PvP only folks to unlock all skills without having to earn anything, the PvE ppl would be hosed.

And like I said earlier.. all the extras.. the runes.. the weapon parts.. and even a LOT of the skills, make little difference. A lot of it comes down to what skill you have at using what you have at hand.

Oh it can be annoying to go through part of the story repeatedly, but I find that the experience changes depending on the class you are playing. I know I have to constantly remind some of my guild members that their new Ele/Me or whatever can't run out and tank like their Wa/Mo could. It makes for a whole new learning curve everytime you go and change up your character.

This game and any other are what you make of them. ANet put together an awesome game. But not everyone is going to be happy with it all the time. There is no such game that pleases everyone ..anywhere. People will have their reasons and many will have something to do with "grinding".

It's impossible to have a game of this sort without grinding to some degree. At least in GW if you don't have everything unlocked for you, you can still play and be competitative and look for those minor tweaking items when you feel like it.

Saus's suggestion makes a lot of sense. The randomness in the SoC system is one of the major problems everyone has with it. Honestly, who likes doing the same mission repeatedly because your group kills the boss too fast or the boss isn't the right profession that he needs to be or he just plain doesn't use the skill. It's not fun and not adventurous, just boring and repetitive.

The flexibility of his system ties in perfectly with how GW is as a whole (the 8 skill slot for example). Lots and lots of choice.

I for one would much rather love to figure out the necessary skills I need, go do some random quests to get some skill points, and then check into one of the few skill trainers to find whatever I need rather than scrounging over half the world looking for the off-chance that I *might* be able to get Barrage one out of ten tries from that boss or going from town to town to locate some obscure quest that will get me Animate Bone Fiends as a reward.

The randomness is the big issue. It's not wanted and it's certainly not needed, as all randomness does is create grind. So take that out and make choice and ironically, skill at selecting skills important instead.

Sausaletus Rex,

I see you put alot of thought into your post ... and I agree with almost everything you said mate.

LoL,
Rant.

I thought they where combating your gripes by sorting out the pre build selections.
Hmm and Yes the Max pre build is limited in arena outpost so the majority of players would be the same.
Erm its just a game, and I'm sure they have already concidered everything that you rant / discuss about.
Erm did you really beleive the PR well folly you. Games never live up to the PR.
Like all game forums, the majority don't care or can't be bothered to post. The vocal few very very rarely get what they want.
If you have a genuinely good positive idea email the devs, If it's that good you may even get a job. As for original, hmm you'd be pushed as there is actually very very little in the industry that is original or new.

I do not understand how giving pvp characters the ability to unlock there skills would hose pve characters. Everyone can unlock the skills in pvp and it has zero effect on the pve side of things. What you are saying is that the pve people deserve the advantage because they grind through the missions and quests. The only people this favors are the elitist power gamers who spend 100's of hours so they can dominate the end game. So instead of this game being different like the devs said it would, it is instead the same old mmorpg I have been playing all along. The whole skill over time spent is starting to fade into the past. I long for the days I could create a pvp character from scratch and choose any skills or if I needed a break I could pve for a while and not worry about unlocking runes or capturing that elite skill.

Rex's suggestions are awesome, and I would love to see them implemented.

He's going to make Hall of Heroes by himself because of his awesome suggestion. I don't know how that works, but he just will.

How does switching the secondary profession help against the GRIND of wanting to switch my primary? Please don't be silly and refer to the custom made as you know its disadvantages.

This bothers me... I hate the concept of the "unlock all skills" idea... It was good for a test in in the beta but as soon as I bought the game I hoped like none other that you would have to work for skills, even for a pvp only charecter. Personally, taking away any and all rare reward makes for a loss of attatchment to a charecter, a drop in replay value, and the pve crowd getting chapped.

How does UAS for PvP chars effect PvErs? PvP chars are totally limited to PvP areas.

The only people it would effect is the power gamer. The people who can spend the ungodly ammount of time to unlock all the skills so they can have a advantage over the casual crowd. I have said it several times and I will say it again. This game is suppose to be about skill and strategy not how many runs I can make to get a elite skill or how many times I can run through the pve story to unlock all the various character skills.


IMO the only replay value this game or any mmorpg has is the end game. If you can keep me coming back trying to create different class/skill combos in order to compete in pvp then I will. What I wont do is bring each and every one through the pve system just to use them in pvp. What will end up happening is players like me who refuse to grind will use there single character for pve and pvp and when it gets stale move on to something else. Its what I did from EQ to DAOC to WoW now to this. The only games I can say I have stuck with through this time were fps games and rts games and most of those have been with me since mid to late 90's.

Well said, and also I am sure the Devs actually wanted the game to last more than 2 weeks.
If everything was unlocked, thats how long the game would last for 90% of the gamers. With only the Hardcore PvP'ers staying. The the casual gamer would not play PvP at all then as there would be not point in playing against them as the odds would be stacked against you. With the hardcore PvP, anal retentive "I know every skill and how to use it dominating".
This is what would happen as there is one server not thousands of different ones with different levels of play. You would end up with the Uber PvP'er dominating the arenas. Having to work for skills,
A, slows this down.
B, Prolongs the life span of the game.
C, Evens the playing field in the long run as it gives the more casual player time to adjust and learn to use skill more effectively.

Reading these comment, 1 thing has to be said, is the most opinionated are the Beta players. The rest of us can just compare to other similar games, and to be honest GW is near the Top of the Ladder when compared to what the rest of the market has to offer.
This is no Longer the beta and sure things were easier in Beta as they want you to actually TEST stuff, not just play. Now they want you to play a game that lasts as I stated above more than 2 weeks.
If the lifespan of the game was short, you can bet your bottom dollar that the support would be pulled and the game would run for 1year maybe 1 and a half tops.
Now take heart the Devs know what they are doing otherwise they wouldn't be Devs they would be whining forum Junk's like most of the posters here. (no offence intended. )
If you have an Idea that will change the world for a better place, sweet, post it, email it, spam Devs across the world with it.
But other than that Always remember places like this are full of hot air, and very very rarely actually acheive / solve anything.

I dont generally play PvP, and I get the feeling im going to regret entering this thread, so im gonna ask a little question instead. Wouldnt the above statement from the beginning of this thread be an acceptable solution?

If its a button, then that leaves the choice up to the individual player. Im not so sure about creating a seperate tournament ring specifically for the RP PvP'er, especially since this game is dedicated to skill, all the more gloating rights for the RP PvP'er to go against a PvP only class char and win, but I digress...

If you add a button and leave it up to the individual player weather to unlock it or not then why wouldnt this work for both sides of the spectrum? Add a confirm message, and/or make the choice per character; meaning everytime you make a PvP only char, you have to press the button to unlock the content for that char alone....

Am I missing somthing here? Would there be somthing seriously wrong with that? I seek enlightment.

This statement alone makes no sense. These same "anal retentive players", are already pvping with the skills they want. Not only are they doing it long before the casual gamer even gets close to the arenas but most are doing it with the full skill sets of there choosen classes because they are hardcore pvpers that wouldn't settle for anything but the best. These players have already grinded well over 100 hours and are now sitting pretty in HoH and Guild matches. I can guess this because I am not a power gamer but I am still at 20 with most of my skills and a lot of runes and hafts unlocked.


Now instead of giving everyone the unlocked skills option you have the best of GW getting better in pvp while the casual gamer is lfg for LA quests.


To the poster above me

There is nothing wrong with that option. The same option was given in BWE and it worked great. Those that wanted to pve got to do that and those that wanted to pvp got to do there thing. Giving this option takes nothing away from 99% of the gamers. The only people it effects are the power gamers who enjoy having advantages over other players because they can put in much more time.

Would you truly be happy with an Unlock all skills button? Wouldn't the next argument be for a unlock all items button?

There's a difference between going out playing the game and happening upon that rare item that might could give you an edge, and having every weapon / armor set and skill available to pick and choose from. That surely would put PvE people at a disadvantage.

FYI: I would be ok with PVP characters being able to unlock all normal skills - i think they should still have to work for elites - possibly after reaching a certain rank to negate them having to do PvE if that is not what they want to do?

This game was never suppose to be about time spent grinding for skills and items. The game was suppose to be about the skill you brought to a match and the strategies you used to win. Right now its about the time you put into the pve and not how well you do in pvp.


PvE characters can make pvp characters to. They would be at the same level as everyone else in the game they just can't use there pvp characters to pve with.

This is what I thought. I keep hearing that the game is about skill and stratagy and was the whole justification for the lv 20 cap. If that is indeed the case, whats the problem with giving the individual player the choice?

So I just recreate the same character type that I played before and replay the game again (another 80 hours of the same thing I just did before) so I can unlock the final skills for the same type at the end of the game???

Great Game Design Work Right There. Esp, when you can only create 4 chars.


Doesn't sound like a grind at all....

I'm not sure what the argument is about. My own playing experience has been one filled with mostly joy and nothing even remotely close to a grind.

By the time I reached Amnoon Oasis I had all but one single skill that I needed for the versatility that I wanted from my R/mo. There are a few elites that I want, but I have serviceable replacements. My problem from the start has always been, not enough energy and of course let's get more than 8 skills! The only "GRIND" I could even see take place is when I want to unlock skills from other professions instead of replaying the game over and over again with different characters.

As far as items go, I don't like the rewards the npcs give you, but I don't think runes or upgrade gear is good either. I for one have the exact bow for the most part that I wanted going in, a Zealous Short Bow of Enchanting, 15-28. I haven't invested anymore than 3 Drake runs, and all of the my "ub3r" gear has come from simply doing the missions. The drake runs have done nothing but add to my sell off at the merchants.

I just find this whole discussion, one with excellent points on both sides, to be a moot point. RPGS for years have done this. Has anyone ever played console rpgs ? or something similiar ? Sure you can get by with your standard 40 hour adventure, but if you REALLY want to do all there is, you have to go out of your way to do it. If you aren't going to bring elites into this conversation, then to me there is no conversation.


Let's ask a question:

WHAT SKILL(S) OR EVEN ITEMS ARE YOU "GRINDING" FOR ?


Outside the elites, I answer this question with nothing.

Im not leaning one way or the other here, as i stated when I entered this thread I dont really mess with PvP all that often. One side answered my question and i still have yet to hear an answer from the other, what would it hurt the avrage PvE player (such as myself) or even those that fiddle with the PvP in addition to the PvE content, to give this button; this OPTION to the indivual player; to those who want it? As you just stated eventhorizen, the game IS based on skill. All you as the PvE player has to do is Not Touch the unlock skills button when you create a PvP only char and then your free to unlock all the content from PvE you want. Wouldnt a larger selection of skills to choose from at the get go make PvP all the more geared twords the skillful?

What would it hurt?????? An unlock button????? OMG I am sure you cannot be this dense (can anybody?)

Well... it just completely negates the rewards for playing PvE. Do you think PvE would be fun if you don't gain anything from it? Sure I can go through 100+ hours of playing PvE... OR I can just hit this "unlock" button??? You do that and I guarantee a lot of PvE players will quit the game, myself included (even though I'm only playing PvE to get to lvl 20 PvP). Don't take away the one real reward PvE players get. They already worked hard enough on the game to make sure that reward is not completely game imbalancing.

It's a lot like MTGO. Everyone starts off with the basic deck. If you're good, you can win vs. people with more cards. Eventually you will want to expand your deck by unlocking more options. The only difference is MTGO allows you to expand your options immediately by paying real cash. GW allows you to expand your options for FREE by playing their great game (not only do you get the reward, but you get to have fun doing it and not hurt your pocketbook). Sorry for people who refuse to play this great game but if that is your stance, you're stuck with the basic deck. This will never change, as well it should not.

You seem to misunderstand the gist of my post. ITS YOUR CHOICE TO HIT THE BUTTON. You dont have to do it, and if you do, you only have yourself to blame for it. If its your choice to hit it and you dont want to DONT. Its that simple.

So seriously whats the problem? Further more I dont particularly care for being called 'dense'. I feel its a legitamet question. The reward is still there if you want it. you simply dont hit the button.

EDIT:: If its a reward you seek you can give some other incentive to play the PvE game. Perhapes PvE exclusive perks of one kind or another.

It is only considered a reward if you can't get it otherwise, the word your looking for I think is a temptation.

temptation has nothing to do with it. ~See edit on previous post~

My point is if you dont start posting ways it COULD work, ways PvE players would be willing to accept and come to some kind of a medium between both worlds, all your going to end up with is a 30 page thread on why you should or should not implement said mesure with nothing but arguments on both ends.

Stop arguing start suggesting.

~Madjik