WHAT Grind?

Howdy,

I've read a handful of threads that involve people complaining about the Guild Wars Grind.

Being a graduate of Lineage 2, I'm confused.

If you're one of these people complaining, are you doing so because:

1) You can't immediately do what you want to do, as was seemingly advertised in beta? A bait and switch, as it were?

2) .. that.. there's actual Grind? 'cause I haven't really seen anything.

I've spent 20 hours farming for runes and I'm still missing half of what I need. That my friend is grind. Over 100 hours and I'm still not completely ready for PvP. Pretty sad if you ask me.

Make sure you remember, before using this for your argument..

It was beta..of course you would have all of the skills, in order to test them out.

I really do not see why everybody is complaining, by the time you've completed the PvE mode once, you should have enough runes and skills to keep you going.

Also bear in mind..the game has been out for two weeks today..you can't expect to unlock everything in that time.

The (minimal compared to most games) grind is optional, as you do not require every skill, you just want them..and even then, go and do some PvE with your guild, you may even find you enjoy it in a decent group with whom you can mess around and have fun.

Whether or not you're ready for PvP, I've noticed PvP has been pretty non-stop since the game went live.

No, the game is advertised as being about "skill, not hours played", yet it very much is "skill, not hours played in excess of that required to get the skills unlocked and the items unlocked". And "skill, not hours played in excess of that required to get the skills unlocked and the items unlocked" equates to "skill, not hours played in excess of a constant", which is true for any game with a level cap, attribute caps and a "best weapon" type thing. If Arenanet is trying to break away from the rest they aren't with the current system, they are just lowering the constant, which means that it's still about grind up to some point, which is easier to get to. They haven't really stepped away from grind until you can just make a PvP character and equip them up.

How many hours of playing an FPS does it take to become really good? Probably a year of playing before you are REALLY good, able to compete in tournaments very well. Put that into prospective here.

This is not Lineage 2. Will you geniuses stop comparing other MMOs to GW? The whole point of GW was to reduce the grind. But sadly, with the Elite capture system, the difficulty in getting runes (I havent gotten one Ranger rune and I'm level 19) and miscellaneous things, the grind is that much reduced in GW. You'll still be farming a lot.

A lot of people playing GW will never play a grind based MMO and picked up GW for the reason that it's supposed to have very minimal grind, but we sure were fooled.

How can you say that there's no grind in GW just because compared to a bad game like Lineage the grind is less and therefore there's no grind? That's like comparing Rosie O'Donnell to Joan Rivers and saying that Joan Rivers is hot because she's less ugly than Rosie. Or vice versa. Take your pick.

I myself am still trying to figure out how some people can complain about grinding in this game. You expect to have everything in the game within the first 2 weeks?

you can though. you just can't equip them all up with everything in the game.
maybe there should be a "no grind" league or something. guilds that play with only the base skills and items. no one even plays the PvE. Just PvP characters on the account.

total balance.

no grinding.

no whining?

people are just disappointed because it's not like beta, which had NO grind.

there is "grind" but i wouldn't call it false advertisement because compared to other games, there's relatively none. i think the statement was made in comparison to this.

I wonder if all these skills and items are really *needed* to be competitive, or simply *desired* for some specific build. The true player skill may be the ability to make a good build with the available skills and items, rather than farming for some abstract perfection that doesn't mean much in a rock/scissor/paper game anyway.

Very few skills or items are obviously superior to other, it depend on how they are combined. Health runes and minor runes the most noticeable exception.

Whether or not that is the case, I predict a similar amount of whining about broken promisses when the first expansion come out. Even though the new skills and items won't be obviously superior, they will allow for new combinations, and the whiners will claim they are forced to buy it, as if the old combinations no longer works.

I have to agree with them because, after all, Guild Wars was advertised as "skill, not hours played."

My reasons for comparing Guild Wars with Lineage 2 are compartively speaking. It simply struck me as odd that people would even dream of complaining about GW considering how awful L2 was.

"I bet you didnt even think that people could be just asking for the grind to be reduced NOT asking for "Everything handed to them" But nooo, you'd rather dole out that cliche line that every fanboy uses nowadays. Stop using exaggerations and outright lies, geniuses."

.. so, you want the grind to be reduced, not outright removed.

Considering how simple and straightforward Guild Wars is as compared to other MMORPGs, isn't that a little extreme?

I mean, by your statement, you infer that you expect -some- grind, but what we already have is too much for you?

- edit -

Incidentally, what Deagol said.

I'd kind of like to see some.. "random draw" battles where all teams are given a random assortment of items and forced to make do with those. ;D

Like in M:tG?

people, maybe not you specifically, are asking for an "unlock everything" button for pvp.

what would be an exceptable level of grind? just curious.

People, the game has been out for 14 days...14! Release is a MUCH different story than problems in beta. There are SO many more people in the game world right now as I post this (Almost 1PM Pacific) than there were in any of the busiest beta weekends (I played in several). You really can't expect Arenanet to cover thousands of peoples' whining and groaning in two weeks.

So, why don't we give 'em a break and a couple months, then the game will have some polish and most minor and major issues will be solved. Have patience.

First of all, I don't think leveling is a grind at all. Not at all. But the skill capture system is a grind. I'm level 19 and havent one single Elite. Or a ranger rune, but that's probably horrible luck. I've played since release and done a lot of farming which I don't mind too much but I find myself having fun less and less with the repetition. It's the grind.

I'd rather play through the missions normally and have the runes I need drop and not have to surf the forums looking for Elite locations and spending hours capturing one skill. It simply turned into work for me. And I find myself feeling like I'm just playing another grind based MMO. GW is no longer a unique creature.

and there is your problem right there. You don't NEED runes. There is no "completely" ready for PvP. People are stuck way far back in the Diablo 2 mindset of "OMG need uber lootz or I die!11!!!"

"Guild Wars was advertised as "skill, not hours played."

^
With that said, I can take a pre-made character with no extra unlocked skills and only 1 rune (inprove curses) and kill 9/10 of my targets.. why you may ask? Its about skill not the hours i've played

See, that's what I was thinking--that the runes and such only made a minor difference as far as PvP was concerned. I haven't done it yet though, so.

I like farming for items, myself. I remember spending hours at a time on D2 going "JUST ONE MORE. JUST ONE MORE." It's proven no different here.

Lol, that's funny. What about those of us who bought the game as adults with jobs, families and responsibilities? It's not 1 1/2 days, that's probably over a week of play. 100 hours is probably a month and a half.

Let me be clear: I don't mind the grind, because I also enjoy playing PvE, but if you bought the game to play PvP it is annoying.

I play FPS in leagues, have for nearly 3 years. The difference is that when I started playing I was on an even footing with my "character", and while it may have taken me years to get to this stage, I wasn't purposefully at a disadvantage when I started. It isn't "whining" to state factually that the game IS about grind to an extent.

What I find funny is that people want so desperately to be equipped better and that they think that they have earned the right to better gear and skills, and thus deserve the advantages. Are they scared of a fair fight? If it's skill, like an FPS, you wouldn't care that they start even. You don't get a better weapon than I do in CS just because you have more free time. The really pathetic whiners are those clinging desperately to the traditional MMORPG notion of time=power. I view PvP as being analogous to an FPS, and I think PvP only characters should be fully unlocked...but if it doesn't happen I'll just become competitive later on down the road. I don't have much of a stake in this anyway, it'll be ages till I am able to PvP on an even footing, and I play in all my spare time, which is about 20 hours a week (and that's a TON given that I have a 2 year old, a job, a wife and a baby on the way, as well as a house that needs renovations and so on...and I have put my league play on hold in my FPS while I try to level here) and I know it'll drop even lower when the baby arrives, when my job hits busy periods etc...

It isn't whining to say that there is grind, there is. If they wanted a game without grind they'd make one, it's easy to do. They probably want to catch a share of the MMORPG market, which necessitates the grind approach.

What exactly is your definition of a "grind"?

Let's break this down a second. Some people (me) need a clear definition of this confusing, and oft-incorrectly used word "Grind".

MMORPGS (No, for the last time I am NOT comparing GW to MMORPGS here...) define grind as "Repeatedly killing the same monster or group of monsters for a static reward, often XP or a certain item or type of item".

I'm not sure If I've heard of the word "Grind" in another context. I'm pretty sure I have spent enough time with FPSs and RTSs to notice something like that creeping into the vocabulary.

So what other definition is there? I certainly can't see the above MMORPG definition applying to the particular statement quoted above. After all, when was the last time someone had to repeatedly kill a monster in the hopes of getting an elite skill?

Ok, seriously though, you people need to define grind. I have no idea how anyone is missing runes. Personal experience has netted me about 30 runes, at least 2 from each class, and about 20-30 or so various weapon parts. I have 4 elite skills and I'm at 45 hours into the game. This is not meant as a "look at me, I'm so good", but as a serious question of "I have all this, and did not have to grind for any of it. It was straight playing the game. What's wrong with you?". I'm pretty sure there's a good explanation for the "grind" question and the lack of drops question, but I've yet to hear either side of this argument come close to reaching that explanation.

100 hours!! OMG!! You do realize that in most MMORPG's to even stand a chance at pvp it would take 3 or 4 times that long. Why do you need "All" the runes in the first place? Can you stack them?

It just strikes me funny that people are calling this game a grind.. too funny.

hehehe I played DAOC 3 months before I could PvP in that game, way back befor the battlegrounds..

doh I told myself I wouldn't post again.. bad stur! bad!

This thread, like so many before it, has veered quite close to the "throw up my hands and be done with it" line. If it wasn't sure to crop up again elsewhere, I probably would, as many of you put it, break out the hammer. But I'm going to allow this to continue for now with a stringent warning. As I've said before and I'm sure I'll no doubt have to repeat yet again - you can be passionate without being personal. Discuss the facts and not the poster. And above all keep it civil and on-topic.

Pfft! 100 hours not PvP ready and you're complaining about that being any sort of task at all? Did anyone here participate in the RYL betas? You had to play for MONTHS on one character every single day trying to find parties and better armor and spending millions on one piece of armor that would many times fail at that level. If you think a week of preparing a character is bad, try preparing characters for 6 months straight and still not being able to even deal damage against the higher lvls in PvP, that my friend is ridiculous.

Guild Wars is heaven compared to other games.

I have to kill most of the mobs in this game 3 times over. I'd say that's grind.



On another note, saying GW doesn't have grind just because other games has more grind is a silly argument. Does GW have less grind than other games? Yes. Is GW grindless? No.

Comparisons are done in a casual, informal kind of way.

I don't think anyone is necessarily arguing there Guild Wars has NO GRIND WHATSOEVER. Rather that, because of how little grind Guild Wars has, especially when compared to other games, complaining about it seems ridiculous.

You have to keep in mind that not all of Guildwars' players have a background in MMORPGs. There is actually a very big base that has backgrounds from FPS/Single player RPGs, RTS-games, etc.
Now, the MMORPG fans might think this game has very little grind, but everyone that has another background is used to no grinding at all. They knew there would be some grind in guildwars, but I think a lot of them were surprised by how much it really required with the last minute changes before retail.

Let us try this one more time. And believe me, there's not going to be another chance and I'm going to do a lot more than just lock the thread the next time someone tries to derail it. You must be able to at least see someone else's viewpoint before you can talk reasonably abou this. If you cannot respect the validity of someone else's arguments, if you cannot believe they have any grounding whatesoever, then do not post here because you'll regret it.

That is a very true fact. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone ask "what does LFG meen"?

LFG = looking for group

As someone with no backround in MMORGs (and a heavy background in tabletop and computer RPGs), I have to say that I'm not seeing any 'grind.'

Sure, I have to go out and fight monsters to level, but I enjoy fighting monsters. I'm just playing the game.

Maybe the problem is alot of people are viewing the PvE as "work"? I think if one approaches PvE that way, they are guaranteeing that they won't enjoy it.

I don't have any elite skills unlocked, and I was able to enjoy, and win more than I lost, at a few PvP games recently.

It might be nice to have an 'unlock everything' button... and it's also nice to reward people who suceed at both PvP and PvE. I don't think either solution is inherently better than the other.

Well, im a die hard RPG fan. I honestly dont see any grind here, but thats just my view, i can understand where RTS and FPS fans are coming. But at the end of the day this IS and RPG, maybe not MMORPG, but an RPG none the less. Characters become better with time spent on them, now i rarely play PvP but i see little reason for it to be fruitless. People who only play PvP should be able to have same unlocks as a PvE playing, but make it take about the same amount of play time. Everything should be unlockable on both sides of the game, seperatly or combined together. As it is now you are FORCED to play PvE and alot of people hate it.. as a PvE player im not forced to ever play PvP, so why should they make PvP players be forced to play PvE? Its an RPG character development is a given, but they should offer some more choices about how to go about that.. this game was released with a broad range of customers in mind, and it caters to very few... anyways enough of my rant, flame away or not ive spoken my mind on the subject.

Let me explain the problem with grinding for items:

Runes: Runes make you more powerful plain and simple. If you have two evenly matched guilds playing against each other than items will be the deciding factor, not skill. Here's a smaller scale scenario: I have base items and deal 10 damage to you. You have all the same gear as me, except you deal 12 damage per hit because of your runes. We hit the same number of times at the exact same speed. Guess who's going to win?

Skills: Not as hard to get as runes but can be a pain. I've spend as much as 60 minutes not only trying to get the boss to spawn, but then trying to get him to use the damn skill.

As I've said before I've played over 100 hours since release and at least 30 hours has been farming runes, items and skills. 6 hours has been PvP and the remaining has been quests and missions. Please keep in mind that doing quests and missions is not necessarily grinding. Killing 12323904732 Hill Giants for runes is.

As for the comment about people taking a year to get good at FPS: Please explain to me how spending 30 hours grinding and farming is improving my PvP skills? It's actually doing the opposite. I would much rather spend those 30 hours doing PvP.

Why am I grinding for the best stuff? Because everyone else is. I don't want stuff for free. I just want a level playing field whether that be having all the runes, or everyone having none. When I win a PvP match I want it to be because we are better than the team we faced, not because we farmed more.

Since Rex locked two or more of these types of threads already, I'm trying to be as civil as possible! Hope no one gets offended!

But I believe it is a general consensus that PERSONAL EXPERIENCE does not count. Want an example? Let's take it to the extreme.

Man #1: I beat some noob with my hands
Man #2: You can't attack with your hands
Man #1: But he quit, because I did /dance with my monk
Man #2: Damn, must work

Obviously, this is exaggerating it. But no matter how good you are, or how inexperienced you are, you do not base things on personal experience.

On a side note: I am betting that 90% of the people who think grinding is not an issue here do not understand how 1 damn rune can make any difference. Let's do some basic Math.

You have a Superior Rune. Let's say you use it to plug Expertise to 14. Now instead of plugging in 12 attributes + 1 mask + 1 minor (and you have to GET the minor first). You say it's 75 hp off. But let's look at the benefits. Your expertise gets to stay at 10. 10 going to 12 requires like around 30 attributes in total. 30. You could easily plug more into wilderness survival, or a conjure element, or beast mastery. Those are big numbers. You lose a bit of hp, which would be countered by a superior vigor, for a huge rate of flexibility. Not to mention you also gained the dreaded 2/4 mana use.

Let's look at Superior Air. How many aeromancers can claim they've ever hit 200+ on any character that is a pre-made or stronger? Probably none. But Superior Air allows you to hit over 230 damage on a monk. 230. That's nearly half your hit points if you don't have mods. As opposed to 180 or so on the monk. I'm probably pulling numbers outta my ass, but this is probably somewhat accurate.

Let's take a look at Zealous Mod, or Element Strings/Hilts/Hafts.

You have conjure, a move that is completely dependant on elemental modifiers. This is probably the most demanding skill in the entire game, as it requires a specific item modifer to even WORK. If you wanted to make a shock sniper, where are YOU going to be? Farming! Unless you can magically rely on luck all the time, the drops are NOT frequent enough for the CASUAL gamer to unlock a specific modifier. Will a casual gamer unlock modifiers just by playing the game? Of course! What about the ones they want? Nuh uh. If your luck sucked, you could play this game for a year or two, and STILL never get a superior rune, or a perfect enchantment grip.

Zealous mod is about half the reason why warrior/monks are insanely strong I believe. The ability to spam 100 blades for only 3 mana, get 2 strokes of adrenaline, and when frenzied, have a rate of mana regeneration higher or almost as high as your 2 arrows is insane. Is it broken? Nah, there's lots of counters. But is it needed for a warrior/monk that plays competitively? Hell yeah. You don't argue when your using a Paladin template, which can't even take on a frenzied warrior/monk.

Unlike D2, items are unlockable, so unlocking matters more then trading. PVP characters get perfect items, so there's no way in hell you would care to rely on a superior air rune or something on a pve character to pvp competitively in the long run. You want them unlocked, so that when you have to change, you can. This creates a NEED.

The opposition uses comparison just like in previous threads to defend their arguement. Allow me to use their logic.

Man #1: I murder someone.
Man #2: I commited manslaughter
Man #1: I obviously now feel alot better and more confident about my trial

Comparison is useless. Scale of Reference is useless. I'm not offending anyone so far am I? Logic should tell you that comparions/scales/whatever you want to call it is only as important in the eyes of the beholder. Someone who's never played Lineage 2 before, and played Counter-Strike his whole life would call Guild Wars grind. Just because he hasn't played Lineage 2, you get to whack at him using "PSSH YOU DIDNT PLAY L2, YOU DONT KNOW HOW IT FEELS LIKE", in the same retrospect, if the CS player was mean, he could be like "Maybe because I wasn't dumb enough to buy it". But you don't see that happening right? But it somewhat does, because you provoke people by using such a silly thing to base your arguement on. The insults just come in a more subtle way.

So far so good right? Am I not offending anyone? I'll edit the post if I do. Just say so. Honestly, trying to keep it civil.

If you truely want to realize why PVPers hate this, why not just look at this site? Guild Wars Guru. Look at the amazing amount of builds we got. High-Damage Tombs, Aragon t3h s3x4h, Barragebot, Shock Sniper, You name it, they got it. Do you really think that the people who built these builds actually want to get the items that they need the way it is now just to make their build? How do you test this amazing build without trying it out? A major expertise and a superior expertise is already a giant difference when it comes to barrage bot and shock sniper. It just doesn't work that way. You can always say "don't play shock sniper then", but that's exactly what is wrong. You should never be denied from a build simply because of item rarity.

Had anyone argued this 5 days ago or something, I would be much more lenient to people who say farming is ok. But since the new patch update, there is no way in hell a casual gamer is going to get the superiors he or she wants without being super lucky or spending an insane amount of time.

If anyone wants to argue about the grind factor being fine, I ask that you name a Superior rune that you do not currently have unlocked, and time yourself to find it. Currently, there is no hotspot for farming, so you have no excuse. I want to see how "easy" it is to get it. Because honestly, even though I don't like using personal experiences or what not, I don't believe that the majority of the people who argue that the grind is fine right now even has gone through what it takes to get those items. And argueing those items aren't required is bullshit. Even KOR can't be godly without their runes and item modifiers.

Now, did I offend anyone? If so tell me, so that I can change it, and let this thread continue.

Clearly what the game needs is rules for your matches. For example you could fight an anything goes match, or you could fight a no runes, no elites, no unlockables match and so on. That way everybody wins. I mean, if you just give everyone who does PvP everything that someone who does PvE can possibly ever get right at the start then where is the surprise for the PvE player?

This game was a gem because it offered a level-playing field. That doesn't exist. True, PvE is much more motivating with a reward, but I didn't come to this game to be rewarded for time i spent "playing". I wanted skill selection, strategy, teamwork, skill based wins, and above all a level-playing field.

Now I have a lvl 20 W/N that only has half of the "easier to get" skills unlocked. To be even, I need to spend, grind or gameplay or farm, I'm assuming another 40 hours or so minimum, not even including all the runes, hilts, etc.

I wanted to play even-level PvP; that's why I bought this game. Apparently now I need to "quest" through numberous and not so various tasks in order to get a PvP player that is competitive. This is not an even-level playing field - this game is not offering what I expected.

Furthermore to my concern, is that when expansions come out, are we to have to "play" another 100 or more hours to unlock all the powers from that set? Again, not what I bought the game for.


Suggestion/Solution:

Don't make an item a "rare" drop. Don't make a skill "difficult" to get. By doing so you reward time based play - the players that play more than others will have an advantage. Eliminate the advantage. Make it so that any reasonably, not so inclined PvE player can achieve a top-notch PvP.

PvE should merit it's own playing. A player should say, "Hey, let's see if we can beat the Ice Dragon of Death!" Not, "Hey, want to go try to get a team and kill the ice dragon so I can get my skill?" Is this not as rewarding a PvE experience? Yes. But if you won't play the PvE without a reward, then you shouldn't ever have to do it. I thought Guild Wars was finally offering a salvation to players who hated the "Gather 100 of 10 different items 20 times and I'll give you God Sword +1" feature of other games. Putting power increasing rewards at the end of quests, or rare item drops that can be farmed, creates a grind for some players. This grind will inevitably be avoided by some, and thus create an imbalanced PvP system.

If Guild Wars is to truly be skilled based at its core, then this type of reward-for-time-spent needs to go. I know that eventually if it doesn't, I will.

However, I also like Thraxus' suggestion. Dangerous, but at least a viable solution.

Like I said before. The way the game was set up in beta was perfect. Players that wanted to pve could go out and do what they wanted to do and the players that wanted to pvp could do the same. Allowing pvp characters to unlock there skills was something I really hoped would come into release since these characters had no influence on pve.

I am not against making players that want runes and weapon items unlockable in the pve part of the game since you can unlock all with a single character.

*sighs* This thread like so many other has devolved into the same old "You're lazy! There's no grind you're just stupid!" thread again. I'm not asking to take away the fun for the hardcore grinders. They can still grind if they want to. But it seems like they always seem to want to force their "fun" on others. I'd just like an option, an alternative to getting certain things.

It's just an opinion and a gripe of many other's but people can't seem to stand differing opinions. If you're so happy with the game why not just let people voice their opinions without bashing them and you go play the game youre so happy with and have no gripes with at all?

Uh, just speculation, but like you know from other human activities, even when people are happy with what they got, they see change as a bad thing and well you know, are hostile towards it. It's just the way it is I think with humanity as a whole, nothing personal. Look at other issues of the world today that shouldn't bother some people but do. I won't give any specifics, but people are very territorial about things they think are fine for them.