PvE class balance is really out of whack.

Sick of having to beg for groups as a ranger most of the time, I thought I'd try out a warrior, specifically a warrior/monk.

Going to post-searing Ascalon at the same level as my ranger, I can solo encounters my ranger couldn't even handle with a full hench group.

Maybe they nerfed bows and marksmanship just a little much, perhaps?

Come on, I buy a few pieces of armor and things can't even hit me for more than zero as the warrior. I laugh in the face of six devourers, where the ranger would've said, "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY".

Kind of upsets me, ranger has so much utility, but gets ignored because they can't take very many hits and/or don't pump out the damage compared to other classes. In some cases, rightly so, but not in all of them.

CASE IN POINT: Underworld. You might be familiar with the shadow minotaurs in there, Axse I think they're called. Anyways, they pretty much two-hit any non-warrior class, and even crappy warriors. Low and behold, a ranger who brings along Oath Shot, Throw Dirt, and Dust Trap can keep 2 of those beasts indefinately blinded, which effectively neuters them. Do people try to get a ranger in the group to do that? NO. Do they even think about creative approaches like that? NO. They say stupid stuff like, "We'll never survive without at least 2 monks." Of course you won't, if you play with less intelligence than that shown by the average henchmen. So, meanwhile, you've got groups twiddling their thumbs trying to get two monks, and a pile of rangers who can't even get a group. Nobody is winning in that situation, people, smarten up.

This same attitude people learn during 20+ levels of PvE is being carried over into PvP. Most people won't give rangers a chance, they just want another war/monk, or another monk/*, or another ele/*, etc. It needs to be fixed, and I think arena.net is going to have to be the ones who fix it.

y are u so mad =(
is blinding always 100% 90% miss? ive been hearing rumors that its some how altered into a basically needless condition

That's not class blaance you have to blame for, it's the fact that certain classes require less skill to play. Consequently, Rangers have much more functions than about any other class I can think of, but also require a little more than an auto attack button.

I know it sucks trying to get a group as a Ranger, especially for pvp. Does that mean classes are not balanced? hardly. It means people are too thick to see past their "if 1 monks isn't sufficient, let's get 3" or "attack the monk first, even if you have to run over 8 traps and the entire group to get to him" and all of those dumb tactics.

To be honest, I wouldn't trade my Ranger for any other class out there, I'm happy with my underpowered bow and my underestimated useability in a group.

I'm not quite sure what you just said, but whatever it was, the discussion was not about Rangers being able to blind indefinetly. He only used that as an example.

I play a warrior, and if I am making a group I am warry of ranger chars. I know that even if i get an everage monk he will suffice, but an average ranger will do nothing helpful. Dont get me wrong Ive seen some damn good rangers out there, but they are few and far between.

Well the ranger class isn't really meant to be able to go solo monsters and take 'em down like the warrior. Rangers make a good support class though, really good support class.

Now, about the not being able to find a party. I think I know the main problem. The fact of it is...well, there are way too many rangers. I mean hell you can turn around anywhere and find that like half the people there are rangers. You see them all over the place. People aren't going to need rangers a whole lot when there's such an insane amount of them running around. I personally switched to a mesmer (which I enjoy a ridiculous amount) and never have a problem finding a party, and if I do...I just go with henchies, for PvP, I don't do it unless I have some friends to party with already. Seriously though, rangers aren't needed because chances are most parties already have one...or two, or 4. You see warriors and rangers all over the place, next in line is problably elementists which are about par with rangers. Monks and necro's are pretty common, the only class you don't see hardly at all is the lowly mesmer. It isn't hard for me to find a party, because a not everyone has a memser. Everyone has a ranger already.

Well, there are no more Rangers than War/Monk combos, the problem is Rangers are very situational, and anywhere before the very high end an extra damage would make up for a Ranger.

In PvP however, Rangers absolutely dominate. I have too many different abilities (and there are quite a few useless ones, but that's another story) that it always seems I've left out the one I need at that very moment. Warriors have some pretty basic abilities, all of which revolve around defense and damage dealing, Rangers on the other hand have interrupts, drains, snares, escapes, AE, dots, spirits, pet attacks, traps and I'm sure I've left out something. That is not to say Rangers have more skills, but rather more skill variation, something like a bard, or a rogue from traditional RPGs.

Warriors have everything you just discribed, exeped for pet, spirits, and traps.

In doing missions and quests, I'd pick my friend's ranger over a W/mo I don't know 24/7. He's always one of the last to die when getting overwhelmed, and knows when to what to pull and when to run. Much better than the W/mos I see rushing into a mob and getting us overwhelmed.

Except for pets, spirits and traps? That's about a third of the Ranger class there.

Pets, altho underused, have a whole attribute and skill line devoted to them, including pet specific buffs and pet attacks.

Spirits and traps are both dominant in the Wilderness Survival trees. Spirits are an awsome thing to have around, especially in pvp where the arenas are small and you often find yourself backtracking to your spirit. And traps, well, the fact they have a whole build dedicated to them speaks for itself, traps are a killer.

And also keep in mind Rangers can use most of their abilities at range as opposed to Warriors who must be in melee range.

Warriors have some utility aswell, but saying they have everything a Ranger has minus a couple of minor aspects is just wrong. Rangers are by far more versatile when it comes to support, just like Elementalists have much more damage options and Warriors have a much greater assortment of defensive and melee offensive abilities.

I don't buy any of the excuses made on this topic so far. Basically, all I see is a lot of people saying 'this wasn't meant to do that' or similar, when none of you have even held the design documents, much less composed any of it yourselves.

'Flexibility' isn't enough for a ranger, when that flexibility doesn't amount to an equal amount of 'power'. Guys, ranger isn't tough to play, it is remarkably easy to play. You can come up with any combination you want and you'll still be underpowered compared to certain other classes, in almost every situation in the game.

Those rangers who you think are playing their class the right way, and doing great, I got news for you. Those people are doing great IN SPITE of being rangers, not because of it...

I can somewhat buy the situational argument, but if that is the case, they need to add lots more of those situations, and add them to every mission, every overland map, and every PvP map.

There is a basic rule of balance in games like these, between durability and damage. Either certain classes have too much of both, or rangers have too little of both. It is simple as that.

I expect they'll address it before too long. Hopefully by restoring some of the shine to marksmanship and bows, or perhaps giving pets their own skill bar, instead of nerfing other classes.

What you said was warriors are a pitence compaired to a ranger, you are wrong in that assesment. Warriors take just as much skill to use succsesfully as do ranggers. A different type of skill, but skill none the less.

You gave all of these skills that rangers *had* and warriors didnt I just pointed out your mistake.

In the above post you name abounch of skills that ONLY the ranger has I could do the same for warriors.

As to your last comment, keep in mind that a ranger is limited to ranged
combat (if he wants to live) where as a warrior can get in your face.

EDIT: To above poster, we say that they are support, because when used correctly they can be devistating to the opposing team. No, we dont hold the "documentaion" in our hands, but that is none the less what they are good for. You just simply are not playing your ranger right.

A. Pets are not a positive aspect of the class. You sacrifice at least 4 skills to have even a somewhat useful, yet still mostly uncontrolable henchmen. Like every other game, pets are ignored.

B. Spirits/nature rituals are universal. Give yourself faster arrows? Give them faster arrows. Slow them down? Slow yourself down. It is a wash. When you only have 8 skills to pick from, gambling on a spirit you may use once a month is a losing proposition.

C. Traps? Traps aren't effective enough. Pathing of mobs is not even intuitive. It isn't like you can say, "Oho! Here we have a game trail, if we make noise summoning fell beasts, they will most assuredly take this path." No, instead, they run in a big circle and then hit you in the rear---and I don't think they're trying a flanking maneuver on purpose.

Lots of fluff that amounts to nothing more than extra button pushing, extra button pushing that might have a positive effect if the stars are in alignment.

Here is a rather obvious comparison. Take the 'flexibility' of the WoW Shaman and compare it to the 'flexibility' of the GW Ranger. Flexibility isn't always what it is cracked up to be, obviously.

read my edit

Your edit is trying to propose that we should play a class for those few brief moments when we can actually make a difference, instead of a class that makes a difference every time it steps on the field.

You're not selling me, lol.

Somebody else mentioned RANGED DAMAGE as a benefit, or strength. There are few, very, very, very few instances in this game where you can hit a mob with ranged damage that they cannot hit you back. Those are the only time ranged damage is a significant benefit. All other times, ranged damage is *less* than melee damage, significantly so, and thusly a weakness, not a strength.

True ( I can NOT belive that I am agreeing with you )

I heard it said some where that the rangers DPS is more than a warrior, yet they die quicker. Wich sometimes that isent even true. Rangers (when used the right way) can be devistating to an opposing team.

Tiger's fury speeds up your attack speed, big deal. I'm familiar with the hoops a ranger can jump through to approach the single target damage of a warrior, thank you very much. I used tiger's fury for awhile, but have what I feel is a better combo that adds evasion to the mix. Has slightly longer cooldown, but I get around that with oath shot. I still don't deliver enough damage. I got a big clue for you, it isn't the skills, it is the hardware. They overnerfed bows. The cap is so low, you can have a blue bow with exactly the same stats as a gold bow.

Any class that wants the ranger's evasion skills can feel free to pick it as a sub-class. You don't get warrior armor by subbing warrior, though, do you?

You're right... a Warrior/Monk survives a lot better than a ranger... or anything else for that matter.

However, you're going to eventually run into problems when the team isn't just about you anymore. Whereas a Ranger has access to traps and AOEs, a Warrior/Monk can't really do anything except keep himself alive.

In situations when you need a strong tanker, warrior/monk is impossible to beat... however, most teams I've been on really only need one because AOEs and hexes are so dang powerful. My point is this: Group play is more important than how many people you can pwn solo.

I've got warrior and ranger, fyi, the ranger dps doesn't even come close to the warrior with the top weapons available to the ranger, while the warrior is still levels behind as a character and in gear.

Well, the ranger comes close if he can find a 100 foot cliff with mobs at the bottom that are weak to pierce. :-)

Everything you guys are saying convinces me the ranger is a niche class in a game with very few ranger-sized niches. It only backs up my personal experience.

Tiger's fury boosts dps, I didn't say it didn't, I said it isn't enough. Period. You can guess all you want about my understanding, but I can tell you right now, odds are very good my ranger has more of the ranger abilities than yours does, and has tried many builds for one that comes close to the all-around package delivered by other classes.

And no, the world isn't coming to an end, but if it is going to be a game, and going to be a fun game, wouln't it be nice if there was a bit of parity between the classes?

Please excuse me for wanting the game to be better.

First, i dont play Rangers, and Blackace has been around for a long *long* time, he probbaly knows what he is talking about.

Second, the "yes the world is coming to and end" was directed at me. Me and him just recently where in a very heated argument that was closed. Hence my " I can NOT belive im agreeing with you " statement.

Yeah, smiting war monks can outdamage rangers even with a conjure or judges insight but that just seems right because that's all a smiting war monk is aiming for. Rangers aren't a high damage only class; debilitating and distracting shot are really great stuff and they have excellent flexibility in dealing with unexpected situations as well (whole wilderness line).

I recall Ranger damage being nerfed in one of the last few BWEs. I'm not sure why, or that it was needed really, but before that they definitely could outdamage elementalists with TF and Barrage/Dual spam even when not multitargeting and consistently come very close to that of a warrior.

I'd personally like to see Rangers getting that damage back that was recently lost, if only because so few people realize how strong they are with the proper stuff. But if they don't, oh well, it's not like they can't compete effectively with other classes.

Since no one have mentioned them... I will drop in

One of the most important thing about ranger... expertise, no class can spam their skills like ranger due to this. Before tiger's fury was nerf, they were really quite mad... anyway, a ranger can keep on spamming their bow attacks without stopping due to this attribute. Warrior need to hit to get their adrenline, caster need to manage their energy, ranger can just spam away especially with marksman's wager... in result, Ranger DPS are very high even without elevation... however, they do indeed lack in spike damages.

edit: hmm... I guess I post a bit slow... Ranger skills got decrease by a few point last BWE, and tiger's fury also got a recharge time of 10 sec instead of 5... which only balance ranger out.

I've hit 145 non-elevated, non critical on a monk with wanderers set. I've always wondered what would happen if both those requirements are fulfilled.

I think the majority of GWs should be back in a craddle and spoon fed. It's irritating. People are afraid to change skills to adapt to their environment ect. Hell, most have a problem hitting "T." Its unbelievable that I can't take a single group into UW without them wiping to EASY mobs. I just can't find the kind of team work that I could have found in say...EQ...WOW...ect. It's just not there.

You're correct on the inbalances. Rangers are too weak. As a warrior, I ignore you or kill you. There's only a few builds that fair well as a Ranger in PVP. They are extremely hard to play vs a warrior/anything for that matter. You have alot more going on. Perhaps there could be some tweaking. You're like a variety of minor dots. Rangers are best paired with a mage in pvp. Deadly combination.

Hey last, elerra here. I have played a few classes like this (when i say like this, i mean jack of all trade classes) in many games, it does have that nasty drawback of people wanting specialists for each thing rather than the jack of all trades. Barrage is certainly helping my dps output in PvP, but still isn't enough to warrant me as many groups as my lightning ele. I really don't know how to propose "fixing" this issue though.

I disagree with this statement. A warrior is much easier to play than a ranger. The thing is, rangers have so much more variety, that you must be much more conscious about the skills that you use, what your role is going to be, and how well things work with your teammates.

Now, playing the game at the Elite level is going to be difficult for any class, but just playing pretty well isn't a problem.

I don't think that rangers are underpowered. I think that there are so many new people playing them that wouldn't really play anything that well, that they have recieved a bad rap. They do have such great versatility, and ways to play them that many times I don't see them played well. Every class is a part of the whole, and each has strengths and weaknesses. However, in combination with the others you can cover up their weaknesses fairly easily.

The other day I came upon a team in the arena, 4 rangers, 4 pets. New players seem to be so taken by the pets, that they don't realize what their true utility is, and how to optimize their character in any way.

The ranger is not a melee class (of course it can be helped depending on secondary). Should a ranged class be able to do battle with a melee class withouth strategising? No. How are you keeping your enemies out of melee range if you are a ranger? If you have a problem soloing, look at why, and look at what is required to be successful running solo.

Not all classes are equally as good at running solo, and Warriors really are made to look good compared to the level 3 warrior henchman. The healer henchie is pretty good, but that warrior? It takes him forever to do any damage, and he practically runs after anything on the map if it's a red dot. I have found this to be the source of why it seems to me that warriors are so good in PvE. The elementalist isn't that good either, so ele's look pretty good in comparison.

I hope my ramblings are somewhat coherent.

Matt

A balanced party is always better than a party of half warriors half monks which is what the online pve community would prefer.

After doing the 6 level Glint mission with a group made up of mostly of warriors and monks (me being a Necromancer) and dying 3 times in a row; I went back and brought a balanced party of henchmen and beat it easily. Most levels are easier with a balanced group, but that one especially so.

Too bad they teach you such a basic lesson in the game so late. The pve community should have been taught that one in Ascalon.

"The other day I came upon a team in the arena, 4 rangers, 4 pets. New players seem to be so taken by the pets, that they don't realize what their true utility is, and how to optimize their character in any way.

The ranger is not a melee class (of course it can be helped depending on secondary). Should a ranged class be able to do battle with a melee class withouth strategising? No. How are you keeping your enemies out of melee range if you are a ranger? If you have a problem soloing, look at why, and look at what is required to be successful running solo."

Amen

Iv not come up against a tombs lvl 20 Ranger, so I dunno what they are like at the 'end game', but iv seen some impressive rangers in the arenas when they are behind warriors, or ontop of a hill/keeping their range. Iv got a lvl 10 ranger im playing myself, ranger/monk, and its pretty good at soloing mobs, although ranger alone is not supposed to be a mass melee mob killer.

Theyre best used imo, for adding their damage onto a target, like a warrior thats fighting a warrior, for using pets to hold opponents in place while they take them out at range, or for outmanouvering where most of the fighting is taking place to take advantage of their range and avoid being sucked into a fight where their low armor would hurt them. thats not to say they are weak. Plenty rangers have taken out my necro/mesmer head to head, admittadly after iv drained my energy pool killing someone else.

If you know how to play your ranger effectivly, yet find its still lacking, then maybe you have a valid point, but so many people dont know how to use them, or use them in stupid ways, and personally iv seen rangers that are devestating.

To the person who said traps don't work because the mobs don't follow the path, that's what choke points are for. Find a choke point, fill it with traps, pull mobs into the choke point, watch them die. I wouldn't use traps in a wide open area.

In PVP I was trapping the bridge, trap after trap and then just sit behind the bridge, watch all of the warriors run at me and watch them all die. Traps rock if you use the properly.

You can't compare damage to damage between a ranger and a warrior for a few reasons I can think of right off the top of my head.
1) A warrior is a primary damage dealer and a ranger is a secondary damage dealer. Rangers are support classes, not damage classes. My girlfriend plays a ranger and I play a warrior and I wouldn't go fighting without her, she's the 'quarterback' of the group. She does her share of damage, but she oversees the whole battlefield from range, throws AOEs where it's needed, pins mobs out of the fight to buy the fighters more time, etc. Support class. She's also always the last one to die.
2) No one includes the damage the pet is doing to augment the damage their bow is doing. Pets may be half a tank, but they are a constant, no energy DOT that is also a part of the rangers damage.

If a ranger is getting hit by anything, the warriors are not doing their job. Anything that attacks our ranger or monk is immediately attacked my the warriors and killed first. We break off attacks to go defend the ranger and monk. Those classes aren't designed to be beaten on.

I understand rangers frustration, especially if you are going out with stupid henchmen, but if you go out with a good group who actually plans strategies, the ranger is probably one of the classes I couldn't go to battle without. (And it was so beneficial, I changed my secondary from Necro to Ranger.)

People need to stop all this nerfing changing crap. This is how wow went down the toilet. People who worked on the game for 8+ hours each day and it is all they had on their mind for 3+ years know how to balance their game better then some shmuck who played for 2 weeks and now thinks he is the smartest man in the world. Leave the game as is as far as class abilities balancing. I think people who make the decisions on class balance should be banned from reading this horsecrap on the messageboards and the vocal minority. If they decide to nerf a class or add something to a class it should be from what they see or know not from all the whiners who think they should be superman. People who whine your class sucks and other one is better just play that better class, it takes like 20-40 hours of playtime to get to lvl 20, so dont BS me about time u invested. And if thats too much time for u to start over then go play tetris or pong. If u are gonna tell me how u like ranger style and dont wanna be a warrior just cause they are better? Well part of that ranger style is to not be as good as warrior or not as desirable in groups, so deal with it.

Adjust your playstyle to the game and dont try to adjust the game to your playstyle.

To be fair, Guild Wars has only been out for two weeks. Give it some time.

One minute you tell me a ranger couldnt handle devourers then the next he can take on the toughest melee in the game and keep 2 of them blinded 100% of the time. Kinda a big contridiction in there somewhere

Rangers rock, ive seen ranger/monks that seem to never ever die and still get kills, PVP and PVE. Rangers also have awsome elemental bonuses on their armor, so they can basically chastise melee with skills and tank elemetalists with armor bonuses, yah poor rangers.

I group with any player no matter what class if they play team oriented. All classes have positives to offer and all have weak spots. It is the players skill to maximize their potential and to play as a team that counts not what class you are. As for your description of blind, an elementalist could cast Ward against Melee and that would have the same effect or a mesmer with Empathy would tear the attacking melee class apart. No class is uber in this game and no class is weak. It is all about teamwork. Valarian.

i made a rng recently to play as rng/war combination and i find that playing rng requires more skill and planning than hack n slash war/monk combination. my rng has advantage of starting with best equipment and gear simply cos my monk is lvl 20 and at end of game too. In 11 lvls as rng i have died only once, maybe its simply cos i dont try playing it like legolas from lotr or maybe its cause i choose targets to kill and pull carefully and switch between my long bow and half moon in battles and i use cold or fire dmg on my bows.... there are different ways to play a rng right and wrong. game is still new and alot of rng out there will eventually learn how to play their class pretty good.