Factions - Class Balance quickly fading.

After this latest update I'm experiencing some anxiety about what is to come of the game.

I've read through the forums and I've noticed that a lot of people are singing praises about the update. I've also noticed that they are all Monks, Necros and Rangers. That is, when complimenting something outside the new interface (Which I think is just amazing, and visually stunning).

As I've progressed through the game, I've noticed that more and more, the game leans towards certain character class types, which I think is most unfortunate. When I first started playing the game, the thing that attracted me to it, was the balance of the different classes and how each class had a use.

With each patch however, every new monster has an interrupt (That they can change target and use instantly on someone casting a spell), every monster has a remove enchantment, that they mysteriously know which player to cast on that would have the most impact, every monster has a knockdown, that they can use over and over, every 10 seconds or so, etc etc...

In PVE -
I enjoy a challenge. And I will admit to feeling that the game has been at times, a little too easy. However, all they are doing is making it so that the only classes that will be wanted in groups, are monks, necros. (Warriors or Rangers can tank if necessary.) The balance of the game is being lost, because everything interrupts (making Ele's the most useless class in the game now), everything removes enchantments (Making protection less and less valuable). Everything has some sort of natural regen, making Degen less and less useful. Essentially, the game is lending itself more and more to Minion Master builds and SS builds, and monks are just necessary for healing.

Having played in the new UW - It looks like Trappers might find a place. So, the 4 man group looks like two monks, MM and a Trapper. The unfortunate thing, is that the game is making people find cheap ways to be victorious which leads to elitist attitudes amoungst the players and is essentially what ended up destroying half the player base of Everquest.

I don't think the answer is to 'nerf' the Necro class. Or to Nerf monks. The answer is to make the game more balanced, so that other classes can participate as well.

I know this post is likely to get Mesmers going, saying that they are as good as any other class. Mesmers are great PvP classes, best in the game IMO, but PVE - they are only as good as their secondary class (Which is most commonly necro).

I've played every class, ascended with every class but Warrior (never enjoyed playing a warrior). The more and more I progress through the game, the more I become disappointed in it's disappearing balance. I just wish there was a game out there that wouldn't compremise balance, just to make the game more difficult.

Perhaps I'm the only one that feels this way. Who knows. And this isn't really a complaint per say, it's more just a concern. And anyone can see it, just go to any farm area, and look at whats in demand. What game manufactures need to understand, is that it's game play that makes things happen like that, not the classes themselves.

Instead of throwing more monsters at us, where each has interrupt, heal and remove enchantment, which leads to MM's having lots of creatures to build an army from, which is the only way to distract the army of enemies enough. And the sheer attack power of the overwhelming numbers, leading it to be more efficient to have fewer in a party (Less people to heal). Have fewer, more dynamic monsters. Ones that run away when their health gets low. Create an aggro system (like most MoRPG's have), where a warrior can actually build it without having to hold something. Where damage causes a creature to get mad, rather than having every creature able to target instantly someone who is casting just to interrupt. Basically, add elements to the game, that add to its richness. Not elements to the game that just make it so that the only classes that are needed/wanted are those who aren't affected by the rediculous skills of the enemy.

With each update, the game lends itself more and more towards a narrower range of Class types. This leads me to believe that the new classes in the game are going to be entirely unbalanced, as they add parts to the game that will make those new classes necessary and thus eliminating the function of another class type.

Anyway, it's just my opinion.


P.S - Why don't Mesmers have a mesmerization spell?

Yeap, I noticed this same trend too.

Nowadays as an ele you just gotta keep spamming GoC/MoC to be able to get your cast off, either that or maybe you play as an air spiker, or something.

i like a challenge but wtf is going on now all post searing units have interupts and enchantment removal, i play a w/mo in PVE mostly or farming and tanking, i use mending (for PVE NOT PVP) and every 5 seconds it gets taken off now i dont bring it because the skill is completely pointless.

Eles are really quite useless now, I certainly hope some of the skills are rebalanced shortly to take into account the casting time AND casting cost.

It is not like meteor shower is some magic spell that follows the target everywhere, 25 energy PLUS 5 seconds to cast is too expensive already.

Enchantment removal hurts Monks most of all. Especially Protection Monks. If anything, that's an indirect buff to an Elementalist's Wards.

Wait until February. Once the World Championship is over, there will be a balance patch. After that, if Elementalists are still gimped, then it's really time to complain.

Wards just get interrupted, because they aren't instants, and you need to be right in the fray. So, while wards in theory would be great, they just aren't practically.

But my point is that the game is making it so that there are 2 classes (3 if you include a tank of somesort) that are able to go through the game easiest, because of the game play.

There are other uses for the other classes, but their uses are not so obvious, and not so easy to actually use. For example, as an Ele/Necro, I can still out damage an SS Necro easily in farms that allow for a gear tank (Because the Gear Tank keeps aggro, and I don't get interrupted). And I say that, having done SS and seen the damage output, and compared it to the Ele. There really isn't a comparison. But then, I don't use Echo Meteor shower (Cuz that's really just too slow and costly to keep doing lots of damage). So, yes, there are still uses for other classes, but those uses are undermined, because generally, a necro can do it better/more efficiently.

But we'll see what sort of balancing happens. If they balance the character classes, it's just going to create problems. They need to balance the game play, not the classes.

Yeah and what's with Doylak Signet and Balanced stance not working as it should. I'm not suppose to be able to be knocked down, but, when I go to use my cyclone axe or Signet heal myself whamo on the ground I go from those Dwarven Herder flippin mobs with something called "counter blow", this is bs. If the skill says "can't be knocked down for X amount of seconds then by gawd I shouldn't be knocked down fo X amount of seconds".

And in Maguuma slade woah what did they do to those used to be easy to kill scarabs. Damn I got degened and disenchanted so fast and I even had henchies and we got overwhelmed by just a few (4) and some trolls. I gotta laugh how Anet goes from one extreme to another, either too darn easy or rediculously hard.

Any of you played the 4x4 new arena against the pre-built AI teams? Lol That IWAY team is something to behold. And they don't even give the player a good selection of AI's to bring into the arena. Where's the Necro ??? Flippin Elementalist is a joke for taking on any missions anymore because of their AOE scare spell now. I think the game is going down the drain myself. PVE has lost it's flare, many of the henchies aren't as good as they used to be. Most are still just as dumb. Stupid Archer Henchie didn't even bring a damn rez sig when I went to Abaddons Mouth to cap an Elite.

There really needs to be a hold position and an attack button added when playing with Henchies. So I can pull the mobs to them instead of the warriors charging down the hill into the group and then aggroing even more by doing so. I can pull well with a bow and do well if I just take the AI ranger, necro, and the two monks, but, there are just some places where I could use those other two warriors, the elemenatlist can stay in town forever as far as I care, they are worthless now.

To be honest, in PvE all you really need is warriors and monks (essentially).

Although, in PvP, if it's balanced, I'm happy.

Well one positive thing about this is that it will keep the noobs out of the higher areas.

Just as a quick comment:

The game isn't designed to be able to sustain four man groups. Except in, like Ascalon. If you think four and five man groups were ANet's intention, you should probably go find a new game.

ok, so you say game is leaned toward certain classes?

first of all, to start, grab a good mesmer with sme good interrupts, maybe slowdown cast time, and interrupt those annoying mesmers.

a good stance survival warrior, with anything but stances, resistaces, heal, tactics can mostly tank everything out there, i havent see enemies do wild blow anyways

a good minion master can rock i know, but it cant do better than a very good glyph power nuker,

why not use your friends advantage towards urs? grab 2 warriors, stance tank and AS warrior. after someone spams meteor shower, make the warrior cast aftershock n them, enemies tend to ball up if body blocked corretly. grab 2 AS warrior, and deal some mayhen

SS necros are good, but boy you dont know how frustrating it is to spam your SS. whith that much cry of frustration, it aint simply as easy

Monks will always be needed. deal with it

I know trappers are good, but there are other things that might be better than a trapper. what about a group with 1 echo nuker, 1 trapper, 1 interrupt ranger, 1 AS warrior, and a monk? maybe an interrupt mesmer instead of an interrupt ranger

come on, i dont think a ranger cannot interrupt the meteor shower that kills like 15 fiends per aoe

chaos worms, there is where a stance tank takes place, just tell him to not move and absorb all damage. besides, the interrupter can just make chaos on siege worms, almost totally blocking them

you are mad with the party u got? make yourself one

I was mad cuz of the noobiness with some people, and I decided to do one myself, this making a common 1 warrior, 1 mesmer, 1 ranger, 2 monks, 1 MM, 1 SS, and a glyph power nuker.

guess what? kinda hard but we did it first try. good communication is essential, last 3 groups were killed in scarred earth worms -.-

I think that this are good ideas for parties

If you are unhappy with parties, make one

I wouldn't say that they are useless, I have one and I love it even now with the changes. The thing is not to use brute force, but to think of a way to compliment the players in your team. If you want Aoes take 2 elementals one can slow and can aoe, very simple works well. Find a ranger that can pin down, or some such, hamstring, those skills where not just put in there to annoy you one way or the other. You can find very good ways of using part skills together to handle mobs. While I do agree that the mobs have increased in size and have become more difficult to defeat, I find that a fun challenge. I would personally prefer to fail horribly at something that seems impossible then win everytime to something that seems to easy. I'm not entirely so sure I see this whole "classes have become useless", I think I see more of classes have to depend more on each other. Designed to foster better team play where that might be possible.

So what monsters have been changed specifically with this update? Can we at least get a list going here?

Scarabs near maguuma stade were mentioned, anything else?

Meet Mantra of Resolve. If the mesmers are destroying you, take a page from their own book and equip mantra of resolve on your caster. Nobody said you have to be a 100% pure ele or necro or whatever.

Red Locust is right, the problem isn't the way the creatures are set up it's people not being flexable with their own build, if people try changing skills around and preparing a bit for different situations they will come off the winner.

I'm willing to bet a lot of players stick to one or 2 builds and never deviate from them, but new creatures with new tactics opens up more of the game to players.

I don't agree with you about Mesmers being almost worthless.
with my mesmer, a monk friend (you'll always need a good monk) and henchies we were able to finish the game easily.

The problem is that you have to adapt your build.
A denial mesmer is not that good in PvE.
Just try all those other skills the mesmer has got.

I'm not telling you exactly how to create a good PvE build.
It's up to each of us to find something tht match our way of playing.

I found mine. It rocks in PvE, it sucks in PvP ...

With each updates, you have to think again your build, sometimes just changing a skill can make the difference.

I played all classes in Pve except for rangers. I can tell now that my favorites are Mesmer and warriors. two classes with a completely different way of playing.

It's just a question of choices ...

earlier someone mentioned about the IWAY party of npc's.
Granted they are very tough, but if you watch all of those npc groups they are very inflexible (who would have guessed )
We took them out in 30 seconds with a monk, 2 ele and a necro.
THis was after working otu exactly what each person had to do and working as a team.
Maybe people just need to talk to other more in game and instead of just taking YOUR build work with others.

eles getting interupted a lot? theres this totally new haxor skill in the secondary class of most elementalists!!! i beleive it to be known as mantra of resolve /endsarcasm

enchantstrippings a bit tougher, but maybe this is where mesmers can be finally be useful along with interupt rangers..? rend could be interupted by anyone even if not experienced and lagging out ;P u get fair warning, shatter enchantments the only real pain and seems to be used a lot in the new pve tombs

....

So, speaking from a Ranger's point of view, what are the two Monks and minion master Necro for? Just take 4 Trappers. Worms could be annoying, if you're not careful.

You should carry mantra of resolve. It is one of the best skills you can have as an ele. Run 16 in your primary element, 10 in energy storage, and 8 in inspiration. It works extremely well.

Doesn't that somehow forces all eles to be E/Me? There are other ways out there I know but you are compelled to follow a certain path..

Bring Mantra of Resolve seems to be everyones fix. Well What if my ele doesn't have that secondary class? What then? Your idea of bringing this one skill is like saying to play the game you MUST have this skill. That's total BS in my opinion. That makes playing the game reliant on the fact that you have this specific skill. Im not buying it.

However, I do agree that many of us (myself included) should be more flexible with our builds. I have always been a straight out fire ele and have never had any problems. I did not use echo much but rather Glyph of enregy and lesser energy. When playing in the new UW i quickly realized my tried and true build needed some serious changes in order for me to survive in there. So I instead brought with me Glyph of Concentration instead of Glyph of Energy....Instant difference. I was able to get my nukes off and my party made it to the 4th map, which I think is a great feat.

So the interupts in the UW are fine with me. Its one area I know I will be majorly interrupted so I go in with skills that will deal with it accordingly. The rest of my party also realized their true blue builds needed to be changed.

But all this talk of ele's and the so called lesser characters like mesmers and being the only ones that change is not fair. As a nuker I get SOOOO aggrevated by the existing parties that form. They all want a nuker but don't set themselves up to HELP a nuker. Most warriors won't bring hamstring to keep monsters in your AoE and most rangers won't bring Pin Down to keep monsters in AoE. Mesmers could bring Imagined Burden too. But no I have to bring Ice spells to slow down the monsters myself and that is not very effective since most AoE's have a considerable casting time.

I do agree with the original poster that some changes Anet makes are just crazy. If they want to nerf the farming places like UW or FOW or SF then by all means do so. These areas are supposed to be a challenge. But changing monsters in Maguuma and other PvE areas is ridiculous. Most players have a hard enough time without all the new interupts and strips. One mission that seems way unbalanced is the Reversing the Scales mission. What level are you supposed to be to complete this??? The reward is minimal and the not worth the effort doing if you have gotten there by playing out the normal progression on the game.

This is getting long so I'll stop. But I say leave most of the PvE areas alone unless they are "elite" areas like uw and SF.

I'm just glad there's a tiny bit of challenge finally. It's not enough in my opinion and Elementalists are still the kings of damage. I have an ele/nec so I don't have any special non-interupt, you just have to work a bit harder than you used to.

There was no skill pre-faction, no challenge at all. Now there's no skill required for monks or warriors but ele's/necro's and mes' will need to use a little more judgement.

I look at it as a lucky break that my ele/nec is one of the few lucky classes that don't have to go through another boring mission just doing the same thing over and over again without concern to what's going on around me.

i have to agree, the eles are most useful with the mesmer secondary class giving them mantra of resolve, however they are by no means useless you just have to adapt. just like in pve it is most useful for a war to be secondary monk. eles are still powerful casters and meteor showers still work, at the same time i myself take an interupt to do on the enemies so why shouldnt they be able to do it to you? you also have to look past being a pure damage dealer, water is coming into the fray more and more as support (it has been widely overlooked but is actually pretty good).
think about the problems, if prot monks are now pretty innefective become a warder or use air and weaken or blind the enemy. the most succesful warder i have used takes ele/monk and can use aegis and mend ailment or a hex remove along with wards.
try to adapt rather follow builds people have already set out for you. every class has a part to play still, its just that maybe you are not playing the right part.... maybe its not the ele's job to blast the enemies any more in high lvl areas, that doesnt mean you are useless.
as for enchant stripping? yes it is too powerful at the moment as there are too many enemies with strips. meaning you either waste a skill slot to take a buffer or you just accept that you will get strips pretty often.
the changes are still fresh but that doesnt mean there is no way around it. within only a few hours of playing in the new uw i had messages from ppl who had cleared it out, 8 man teams, balanced builds, (yes eles included :P). if it were that easy to keep doing what you are doing eveybody would be rolling through the game with ease...look at what happened to the furnace! farmed to death and in my opinion a waste of my time. you have to see that changes they have made have given birth to new builds which is a good thing imo.
having said all of this......they need to stop nerfing useful skills, they are useful that is why their effectiveness is exploited, and if you do nerf them, dont make them completely useless as i have to say some skills have been weakened to the point that they have no use any more. prot bond for example i feel will never be used again.
is my comment long enough? :P

Again it seems like you are saying ele's should be mesmers too. What if I want to be an Ele/Monk or a Ele/Ranger. What I totally loved about GW is that ANY class combination could be successful. You could be any combination you wanted to. But thats hardly the case anymore. Everyone finds a build and does it to DEATH. How many SS necros you see now?

Everyone here is pointing to Sorrow's being overfarmed. Fine. Nerf it! But don't nerf the ENTIRE game!! I'm a PvE player mostly and let me tell you how hard it can be to even FIND anyone doing some of the quests in the game. So I pick up my henchs and roll out. Only to be at a serious disadvantage because they nerfed monsters in the Maguuma Jungle ONLY because people are over farming Sorrow's Furnance. O_O WHA? Does this make any sense?

Class balance went out the window with Ritualists, damage dealing, can blind, can heal, and can spam impassable spirits.

Ranger spirit spam got nerfed for a reason, now here it is, back again with a different class. 1-2 Ritualists can throw up some spirits and deny you the ability to get into the bunker and get the relic for your team.

ive played through to the second level of the new UW, and as an air ele with an infinergy air spike build, i was dealing the most damage of anyone in the party. the simple answer to interrupts is mantra of resolve. The only reason we died was cuz of those damn chaos wurms and their knockdown.

I agree, its beyond irritating and probably much worse than ranger spirit-spam. Not only do they effectively block you, they are also considerably powerful. Spirits should have zero collision size. That said, this isnt really the time to talk about balance. Its not as if this class is going to be a permanent feature.

I have to agree. Compared to other classes, eles seem the most pathetic.
I think I have wasted alot of my time. The other classes can breeze through areas and have a generally much easier time. I cant express my disappointment in learning that alot of my time have been wasted ( a few hundred hours). If I have played a tank or a 55 monk or whatever i would be 100 times richer than I am now. F--- this whole s---.

This sux alot.

You have to laugh at people who say that the balance is gone and that we should go back to the days where only Warriors, Ele's and Monks can get a group.

I'm going to sound like a n00b, but I don't consider myself one. I've been playing GW for over 4 months, have did 6 PvE chars.

The reason I may sound like a n00b, is cause I still don't know what a SS stands for, or what I trapper is. (I do know MM though )

I do think there is quite an imbalance. I know many like to farm, but I simply want to quest...If I get some cool items while questing, that's just a bonus.

My example is of the Sorrow's Furnace quests. When you go to the town nearby, you won't even be invited to a group if your a Ranger, or Mesmer. All people want are 4 or 5-person groups of (1) Tank, (1) MM Necro (1) Monk, and (1) SS Necro...whatever that is.

In fact, I have always played as a Blood Necro (Battery for other casters). Once I left w/ a group w/ that setup. I was yelled at by my group of 4 or 5 cause I didn't raise up Minions. They called my n00b, and made me feel as if it was my 1st day playing GW....A-Net, this shouldn't be!!! The game shouldn't be so lopsided towards certain classes, or certain builds.

I agree w/ comments about Ele's being LESS useful now (still useful in certain situations, but much less than before).

However, A-Net, I am 30 years old and consider myself a more mature player. (I don't have 8 hours a day to play this game...may explain why I don't know what SS Necro is). For having no monthly fees, I think this game is great. I have noticed that you listen to user's comments by constantly giving us updates, etc....I just wish there would be a little more balance. (us Battery Necros, us Rangers, us Elementalists, and us Mesmers want to do the High Level quests too =)

Mantra of Resolve? The answer to all of your interupt problems? I think not...and I have a visual witness or two to confirm.

- I was told that in order to be in the iWay Build, I had to have my Ranger's secondary as a Mesmer, for Mantra of Resolve...so I did.

- I was never interupted so often as when I had Mantra of Resolve up and active (yes...with near full energy on my bar).

- So, I throw up Resolve, start trapping in front of our Necros and not one trap can get set - all 4 interrupted, and I still have enough energy left to cover what Resolve will take. Hmmm, problem with Resolve?

- I get into 3 different groups in Tombs (Heroes Ascent now) bringing Resolve...and not once was I able to avoid interuption when it was to occur.

- So, in order to get into my trapping groups/iWay, etc... I stay as R/Me and bring Whirling Defense - now only Mesmers interupt me and I see darn few of those in an HoH run.

Just my experience, and it may only be bugged for me, but Mantra of Resolve is a waste of a skill slot and works 0% of the time.

If anyone can offer a solid explanation on why I would run into this experience...I am more than willing to listen.

has anybody screaming about the balance being gone considered that Anet has promised rebalancing AFTER the tourney is over?

that this event will give them data logs to go over to see how the new skills/professions have to be adjusted before final release?

that even then they will be subject to further adjustment as the exploits are found and used?

this is still very much a work in progress so lets see what actually comes out at retail.

I had thought there were some good insights in this post and something related to the two new professions when I saw the title, but after I went through the post, I felt like cheated. The arguments about class imbalance are totally non-sense. If you have trouble in PvE with any class, think about your skills again, learn how to use different skills against different mobs. Interrupts? Bring Glyph of Concentration, Glyph of Sacrifice, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Resolve, any of those can get the job done. And don't talk about balance in PvE, the balance of skills and classes is for PvP, not PvE, period. As someone pointed out above, you can do all the PvE with only warriors and monks. I had done 1 warrior and 1 monk farming when Sorrow's Furnace just came out, although it's a bit slow, it could be done. The only thing you need is your brain, spend some time to read the skill descriptions and find out how to use them.

The balance is fine. Blame the players, not A-Net. In the situation you describe where you were yelled at it's just as much your fault. You assumed they wanted a battery necro the same way they assumed you were a minion necro. Is this A-Net's fault? No. Talk to your party. Is minion mastering too strong? No. Try to get a spot in a ring of fire group advertising as a minion master. Certain builds are going to be good in certain places. That does not mean they are over powered. The balance is very good as it is. The problem lies with the players. Mesmers can't get in high level groups very easily. Is it because they're weak? Nope. They're a very high priority target in PvP but still nobody wants to take them. It's because their effects are less tangable. Unsofisticated players want to be able to touch and feel the effects. They want to see the monster take damage. They want to see it get knocked down. They can't see it run out of energy. The solution is not to complain about balance. The solution is to start playing with smart people. Get in a good guild and you'll have no problems.

to be fair, minion masters got a good thwaking with the nerf bat today. Verata's Sacrifice is limited to 10 minions in the area now...

Verata's Sacrifice looks unchanged to me... Though, you gave me a good scare. What makes you think it affects only 10 minions?

Thats makes no sense at all. Your saying that balance shouldn't exsist in PvE? That is a pretty dumb statement. According to you, all anyone should ever play is a monk or warrior in PvE? Huh? Why would Anet bother to make the other classes then?

Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

I think the game is just fine - I think the majority of players need to learn to be more creative. Regarding interruption, there are elementalist glyphs to prevent interruption - and if you need more, there are plenty of 2ndary counters: mantra of resolve, spellbreaker come to mind.

To the trapper ranger that got interrupted on mantra of resolve - it doesn't prevent knockdown interruptions nor does it counter wild blow. What it does help for are easily interrupted actions (which mean, if you get hit while performing the skill, you get interrupted). If you've ever used mantra of resolve + healing spring, you'll certainly appreciate it's use.

To the battery necro that got yelled at for being a battery - well... hate to say it like this, but if you don't know what role a certain group build expects from you - you're still newb (as much as you'd like to think otherwise). SS = spiteful spirit. If you dont know that, ask! - you'll get a lot of hurtful comments, but at least you'll know right? And failure to understand your role and expectations implies a failure to communicate on your part. No offense, but all you had to do was tell them you're a battery. That's all. When playing a smite monk - it's my responsibility to let them know that I'm smiting, especially since they'll be expecting a healer or prot. If you don't know what expected of you, then ask. Lack of communication is something ANet can't fix with an update.

And to those that say ele's are worthless - there are other ele lines instead of just fire. We do 2-man UW with 1 ele and 1 support monk. Yes, the ele is the tank and damage dealer. The monk is only there for a few bonds and spellbreaker. Hint: it's not a fire nuking ele. KK - I'll even give it away: it's an earth ele. Not hard really. Read what armor penetration does - just read it - 25% armor penetration means only 75% of the foe's AL is applied. If you don't understand how beneficial that is - hit a platemail warrior with a lightning orb while he's using a healing signet. After that he'll either try to kill you or run away from you.

IMHO, no skill is entirely useless (except for Otyugh's Cry -wtf?). No role or profession is useless.

To the OP, if you feel that the game is leaning towards certain professions - I assure you that it isn't. The newb player community may think that all you need are W/Mos, Monks and Eles - but that's simply a sign that there are more newbs today than there were yesterday.

creativity FTW.

kapow!

My book: Warriors ftw!