Even better than echo'ing weariness is using inscriptions to recharge it faster. I'm sure you know this, but since echo and surge are both elites, you can't echo surge. Better than arcane echo'ing surge is to bring burn.
Here's a typical e-surge skillbar:
e-surge / e-burn / mindwrack / weariness / humility / mantra inscript / drain enchant / res
(pls don't argue over that skillbar, it's just an example of a typical e-surge bar. some prefer to run shame/guilt/diversion also).
If you could run either: consume corpse or winborne speed in place of drain enchantment, try ID1 and advertise LF for a dual surge group - that's what I suggest. Of course, you can PM me ingame too.
Mesmer Builds - Discussion
Sinjin
Avarre
My usual surge bar is usually along the lines of:
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost.
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
My usual surge bar is usually along the lines of:
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost. Do you not use Self-Heal/Protect?
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost. Do you not use Self-Heal/Protect?
Avarre
Not while running e-burn. I trust Racthoh's monk to stop what he's doing, run across the map and heal me, even if the rest of the team is dying.
It's more of a TA/8v8 build, you see
It's more of a TA/8v8 build, you see
JYX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
My usual surge bar is usually along the lines of:
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost. That actually happens to be the exact same build I use
surge / burn / wrack / weariness / humility / leech sig / inscriptions / res
with surge occasionally subbed for echo, and leech sig occasionally with gale, etc. Yeah, I didn't mean echoing surge, just echo weariness or an e-surge build for edenial. With both inscriptions and echo you can get signet of weariness off quite rapidly. I still prefer energy surge however, for reasons I've stated before; that health removed from the monk is health that needs to be healed -> more energy lost. That actually happens to be the exact same build I use
Draracle
I have used a similar build for e-denial. Signet of Weariness is my favourite because I love seeing all those -10's hopping off of everyone. I also like Spirit Shackles and Mind Wrack if I want to add dmg in the mix. It work great on warriors and rangers who drain their energy quickly with spirit shackles. This should seriously hurt the ability of Warrior from using finishing skills, stances, and other energy skills. It will also slow ranger down significantly as they will probably have to half their fire rate to use their skills. If you don't care about dmg, just use Spirit Shackles. You won't get that pretty dmg when they swing but you will eliminate half their skill bar very easily.
Curlyfry
I gotta say, the mesmer is EASILY the hardest class to play. For one, figuring out which skills work with eachother can be troublesome, and there are many skills out there that sound great but really stink. I love playing a mesmer, WHEN I AM NOT FORCED TO CHANGE MY PLAYSTYLE!!! I have had it up to here *points to something REALLY high* with people telling me what to do! Let people test out and play how they like, which is why the random arenas are great. Whenever you wanna test a mesmer build, take it to the random arenas and see how it works, its what i usually do. Also, energy draining is not the only thing a mesmer can do (like everyone has claimed already). While it helps, there are many more ways to use mesmers to their full potential, and it totally depends on ones play style. There is shutdown, IW, energy, warrior killers, health degen, self survival, the list goes on. So to sum it up, test MANY builds in the random arenas, and there are many ways to play the mesmer's 70 or so skills.
Draracle
The motto I usually have when somone asks about what skills to bring, especially in PvE, is "Whatever you are comfortable with". What you know is probably what you will be most effective with. Granted, as much of this thread as said again and again, there are a lot of crappy mesmers who are hung up on simple builds but that aside, people are best with what they know.
And I get people telling me what to bring and what not to bring. Just today I did LDD and someone told me that I should not have interupts on my bar because I wouldn't face many spells O.o... I just said, "don't worry, I'll be fine". Oh, and I am pretty sure I got kicked out of a FoW group for an elementalist... Needless to say, we pwned the LDD and my interupts were as effective as I planned them to be.
As Curlyfry said, play with the build too. Mix up your skills, look for synergies. Mesmers are blessed with (in my opinion) the most diverse set of skill in the game and the vast majority of them are great skills. Play around, look for those little tricks that make the Mesmer so much fun to play. Mesmers might be hard to play, but once I built mine my other characters have been collecting dust.
And I get people telling me what to bring and what not to bring. Just today I did LDD and someone told me that I should not have interupts on my bar because I wouldn't face many spells O.o... I just said, "don't worry, I'll be fine". Oh, and I am pretty sure I got kicked out of a FoW group for an elementalist... Needless to say, we pwned the LDD and my interupts were as effective as I planned them to be.
As Curlyfry said, play with the build too. Mix up your skills, look for synergies. Mesmers are blessed with (in my opinion) the most diverse set of skill in the game and the vast majority of them are great skills. Play around, look for those little tricks that make the Mesmer so much fun to play. Mesmers might be hard to play, but once I built mine my other characters have been collecting dust.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draracle
The motto I usually have when somone asks about what skills to bring, especially in PvE, is "Whatever you are comfortable with". What you know is probably what you will be most effective with.
Very true. It's better to have someone using less than effective skills he's used too, than trying to use something he's unfamiliar with because someone says it's better. That said... You SHOULD be willing to experiment and become familiar with enough builds that you can fit pretty much any groups idea of what they need. Group Synergy is the forte of the mesmer. You can fit in to serve many purposes! And while its good to be familiar with a build, its better to be effective with many builds.
Despite the learning curve...mesmer play becomes instinctive over time. More experienced mesmers don't really have to think about what skill to use when...they just react. I'll be there someday....I hope.
Despite the learning curve...mesmer play becomes instinctive over time. More experienced mesmers don't really have to think about what skill to use when...they just react. I'll be there someday....I hope.
Draracle
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Despite the learning curve...mesmer play becomes instinctive over time. More experienced mesmers don't really have to think about what skill to use when...they just react. I'll be there someday....I hope.
Agreed: once I got set on my current build, I play it and play it and play it. When I started I would look at my bar and see what I had available, or look for those dream spots where my most familiar combos would work. Now that I have some time to build up xp on this build I am getting much better just acting and reacting to what is happening around me. Sometimes, I get in that zone, where you can do no wrong. You are switching targets, hexing, interupting, shattering, e-managing... By the time the battle ends you have been a one-man train wreck: "!woot woot!". But that has only developed through getting very familiar with my skills and how they work and when they work best.
animeba
Quote:
If a group leader has taken the time to give you a build, he probably knows the mission better and is helping you become more useful. Don't be stubborn & arrogant, and refuse to listen.
Lots of people start a mesmer, as their first character, because they wanted a "challenge" or they wanted to play a less frequentedly played class. Unfortunately, mesmer requires a lot of knowledge about each pve mission & skillsets of each profession. People will be a lot better mesmer if they had gone through the game atleast once with another character. That way, you would know what to expect in each pve area.
Anyways, I'm curious as to why people started their mesmer class. I started off my mesmer/ranger because they were the only two class skills left that I haven't unlocked. My mesmer was somewhat good looking. But my ele & ranger look much better
.
Avarre
Made Avarre (my first char) because mesmers rock. That is all.
Quote:
Lots of people start a mesmer, as their first character, because they wanted a "challenge" or they wanted to play a less frequentedly played class. Unfortunately, mesmer requires a lot of knowledge about each pve mission & skillsets of each profession. People will be a lot better mesmer if they had gone through the game atleast once with another character. That way, you would know what to expect in each pve area.
Quote:
Draracle
Quote:
Originally Posted by animeba
Heh, I find that very funny. It's like a monk saying, "I like to play smite because I like it";
yeah, I know, rtfp. Obviously somepeople will have a useless build. But when someone tells me to make and E-denial build, I don't want to hear them say "make sure you bring mind wrack" or otherwise tell me what my build should be. My point is that when you bring a mesmer in a group, if that mesmer knows what is going on, don't tell him what build to use... if you notice, that is what that part of the thread was about. The point is that people will get comfortable with their own builds, forcing changes in their builds, even if the new build could be more effective, probably won't improve the effectivness because that person now has to learn how to play a different build. That doesn't mean people should only play one build, (look at the next post), but that if someone doesn't play the build you want them to play, forcing them to change is not likely going to improve effectiveness.
white wolfgang
Avarre can you please tell me your UW/FoW build? Your obviously extrmely experianced with mesmers and id love to try your build
Thanks
Wolfgang
Thanks
Wolfgang
NinjaKai
When it comes to a mission that I know will have lots of spellcasters I always try to optimize the build I call Restraint because it's focus is always to limit the capabilities of enemies to the lowest possible. The basic strategy I use for this build is to generally slow them down then lock their skills with something like arcane conundrum (Pardon the spelling) or general interrupt skills. This tends to make it a simple hack and slash frenzy for warriors or whatever your proffessions strong point is for causing damage. This is a build that relies heavily on your teams ability to deal as much damage as possible to the enemy.
NinjaKai
Avarre I agree with you on that. My first character was a mesmer. Which I still use as my main because I just love mesmers in general. And I do find it fun because being a good mesmer can often mean the difference between a boss killing your party or making the boss easier to kill. Ofcourse i'm not saying other proffessions aren't capable of the same thing. Everyone is important, like how warriors are your only wall standing between you and enemies. (Unless you run back letting them attack the monk. xD)
Avarre
Well since some have asked, and it's not really a secret anyways... I present...
Avarre's FoW/UW group build
Ineptitude {e}
Distortion / Sympathetic Visage (depending on how much you trust the tank)
Arcane conundrum
Backfire
Shatter Hex
Empathy
Cry of Frustration
Rebirth
Me/Mo
8 + 1 Fast cast
11 + 1 Illusion
11 + 1 + 3 Domination
2 Protection
I love this build in PvE teams for FoW and UW. I have tried changing it, and always end up changing it back. Made it some time ago after I capped ineptitude (earlier I used clumsiness/migrane instead of inept/conundrum), long before I read forums etc.
As for the tactics of using it... virtually all of it is explained throughout the thread in my posts.
Of course this isn't the only build I use, just my favorite one and the one I usually cite for PvE.
Avarre's FoW/UW group build
Ineptitude {e}
Distortion / Sympathetic Visage (depending on how much you trust the tank)
Arcane conundrum
Backfire
Shatter Hex
Empathy
Cry of Frustration
Rebirth
Me/Mo
8 + 1 Fast cast
11 + 1 Illusion
11 + 1 + 3 Domination
2 Protection
I love this build in PvE teams for FoW and UW. I have tried changing it, and always end up changing it back. Made it some time ago after I capped ineptitude (earlier I used clumsiness/migrane instead of inept/conundrum), long before I read forums etc.
As for the tactics of using it... virtually all of it is explained throughout the thread in my posts.
Of course this isn't the only build I use, just my favorite one and the one I usually cite for PvE.
Lady Lozza
Wow things have really moved along here *shakes head to clear it*
I tried a little experiement last night that I though other mesmer fans might be interested in. I've began to notice that - with a few exceptions - the really good guilds do a lot of moving around when they play. Now I normally do a bit but probably not as much as I should so I decided to go for a slightly different approach in HA to try and get myself thinking about how much movement is necessary. So here is the build I took in:
Arcane echo, blackout, signet of humility, distortion, mantra of inscriptions, ether feast, mantra of recovery, res.
My self-proclaimed job was to be a pain in the butt to all concerned. So I quite literally ran around blacking out skills for the majority of the time I spent in HA. Now this would be a very difficult pve tactic but it really got me thinking about how even mesmers perceive their roll. We are shutdown, e-denial, e-burn, anti-caster etc. Surprisingly for a build wacked together in a matter of seconds it worked rather well.
I noticed people talking about having dual targets and that sort of thing. Normally I set myself up to hex 2 targets with 4-5 hexes, and let them finish themselves off. But what about taking on more (or even ALL) targets?
With blackout & signet you can have 2 players and an extra elite disabled at the one time. Now I'm not saying that this is a good build, it has a LOT of flaws. But one of the biggest challenges for a mesmer, as some have already mentioned, is having a build that will contribute to the party no matter who you are playing against, without damaging your output.
BTW - Arcane echo is basically a wasted skill here, I was thinking of included illusion of haste next time, and maybe something else instead of ether feast... Just a fun build for something a little different the the e-surge/denial builds running around.
I tried a little experiement last night that I though other mesmer fans might be interested in. I've began to notice that - with a few exceptions - the really good guilds do a lot of moving around when they play. Now I normally do a bit but probably not as much as I should so I decided to go for a slightly different approach in HA to try and get myself thinking about how much movement is necessary. So here is the build I took in:
Arcane echo, blackout, signet of humility, distortion, mantra of inscriptions, ether feast, mantra of recovery, res.
My self-proclaimed job was to be a pain in the butt to all concerned. So I quite literally ran around blacking out skills for the majority of the time I spent in HA. Now this would be a very difficult pve tactic but it really got me thinking about how even mesmers perceive their roll. We are shutdown, e-denial, e-burn, anti-caster etc. Surprisingly for a build wacked together in a matter of seconds it worked rather well.
I noticed people talking about having dual targets and that sort of thing. Normally I set myself up to hex 2 targets with 4-5 hexes, and let them finish themselves off. But what about taking on more (or even ALL) targets?
With blackout & signet you can have 2 players and an extra elite disabled at the one time. Now I'm not saying that this is a good build, it has a LOT of flaws. But one of the biggest challenges for a mesmer, as some have already mentioned, is having a build that will contribute to the party no matter who you are playing against, without damaging your output.
BTW - Arcane echo is basically a wasted skill here, I was thinking of included illusion of haste next time, and maybe something else instead of ether feast... Just a fun build for something a little different the the e-surge/denial builds running around.
white wolfgang
Thanks Avarre-the reaason I wanted it was because you reffered to it and I was searching desperately to see if you had posted it. Great build, althaugh you already gave most of it away.
Thanks some more
Wolfgang
Thanks some more
Wolfgang
white wolfgang
Nice build Lady Lozza
I made a similiar one, based off of blackout. It goes somewhat like:
Mantra of Recovery
Blackout
Ether Feast
Serpents Quickness
Backfire
Res Sig
Arcane Con
Last 2 can be anything
My tactic was to throw backfire and Arcane Con. on one monk, and while hes busy removing(Remove Hex is a long cast time). I shutdown the other monk at all times. This gives the team a chance to kill atleast one monk. However this is a build that can shutdown nearly any class and shows the flexibility of a mesmer.
Thanks for your time,
Wolfgang
I made a similiar one, based off of blackout. It goes somewhat like:
Mantra of Recovery
Blackout
Ether Feast
Serpents Quickness
Backfire
Res Sig
Arcane Con
Last 2 can be anything
My tactic was to throw backfire and Arcane Con. on one monk, and while hes busy removing(Remove Hex is a long cast time). I shutdown the other monk at all times. This gives the team a chance to kill atleast one monk. However this is a build that can shutdown nearly any class and shows the flexibility of a mesmer.
Thanks for your time,
Wolfgang
white wolfgang
Nice build Lady Lozza
I made a similiar one, based off of blackout. It goes somewhat like:
Mantra of Recovery
Blackout
Ether Feast
Serpents Quickness
Backfire
Res Sig
Arcane Con
Last 2 can be anything
My tactic was to throw backfire and Arcane Con. on one monk, and while hes busy removing(Remove Hex is a long cast time). I shutdown the other monk at all times. This gives the team a chance to kill atleast one monk. However this is a build that can shutdown nearly any class and shows the flexibility of a mesmer.
Thanks for your time,
Wolfgang
I made a similiar one, based off of blackout. It goes somewhat like:
Mantra of Recovery
Blackout
Ether Feast
Serpents Quickness
Backfire
Res Sig
Arcane Con
Last 2 can be anything
My tactic was to throw backfire and Arcane Con. on one monk, and while hes busy removing(Remove Hex is a long cast time). I shutdown the other monk at all times. This gives the team a chance to kill atleast one monk. However this is a build that can shutdown nearly any class and shows the flexibility of a mesmer.
Thanks for your time,
Wolfgang
Avarre
CoP will remove your hexes if your first target was a boonprot... imho backfire isn't the best choice, expensive and the damage really isn't that significant, especially if you're slowing his cast.
Perhaps shame/guilt... as good as an interrupt when used on most monks or eles respectively. Blackout isn't bad, and with mantra you can keep a single target blacked as long as you have energy, which is a problem... although guilt and shame (with the long recharges negated by recovery) aren't bad at keeping you powered up.
Perhaps shame/guilt... as good as an interrupt when used on most monks or eles respectively. Blackout isn't bad, and with mantra you can keep a single target blacked as long as you have energy, which is a problem... although guilt and shame (with the long recharges negated by recovery) aren't bad at keeping you powered up.
Draracle
Ok, from Avarre's build I have the following question: Power Spike vs Cry of Frustration... now before everyone says "CoF FTW", here me out. Cry of Frustration has the that beautiful AoE interupt/dmg. And CoF can interupt every skill. P-Spike can only interupt/dmg one target and it can only interupt spells. The rest of the comparison goes the other way: CoF is 50% more expensive than P-Spike, has a 33% longer recharge, and does half the dmg to the primary target. Often in a heated battle, that turn around time and that energy cost can mean the difference between an interupt and just waving a wand in the air. I know this because I have run my bar with each of the skills can there are many times with CoF I know I could have made the interupt if I had P-spike. Keep in mind I run a glyph build, so often I double up these skills for two back to back interupts. I guess you could make a case for what type of enemy you are facing, but this is mainly for upper lvl gaming and the monsters are fairly ballanced in FoW and the like. Anyway, there is my handicap on the issue, to me, right now I like P-spike. Those extra interupts, extra energy and getting that finisher on a necro or monk trying to gain some health back just out weighs the cost of carrying CoF -- even with the Global, AoE interupt. Give me your handicaps on this, I know Avarre uses CoF (not in a Glyph build) and I am sure others of you carry interupts.
Avarre
Soooo often I usually toss interrupts at the start of the battle, making the energy cost meetable... CoF means both those shadow eles have no more fire nuke, both those shadow beasts have their first spell (they alternate) stopped.
I just like it over power spike. It has alot more potential, which makes up for the energy cost.
I just like it over power spike. It has alot more potential, which makes up for the energy cost.
white wolfgang
CoF can interrupt any skill-and its much better to be able to interrupt both a warrior heal sig or an ele meteor shower. Remember mesmers arent made for damage, theyre job is to well most basically screw up the other player. Power Spike is good but if your like me and only throw one interrupt in ur build it isnt sufficient at helping the team at all times-thats why i prefer CoF
Thanks For the Time
Wolfgang
Thanks For the Time
Wolfgang
white wolfgang
Lol soory bout my earlier build post I screwed it up-It was very late at night. I was making a PvE build but in the post started to design it for pvp
Later Ill post up a much better version. I was thinking about shutting down 2 shadow monks as they sit there and spam Heal Area and such. Sorry for the screwup
Sorry
Later Ill post up a much better version. I was thinking about shutting down 2 shadow monks as they sit there and spam Heal Area and such. Sorry for the screwup
Sorry
max gladius
One setup i love to run in the arena is Backfire (10 secs cast blah blah blah) then WWorry (3 secs till dmg) them for good dmg... if they remove backfire i try to interupt it... u can get 3 good WWorries on them 60 some dmg each in the time backfire sits on them, or they dont see backfire and do the 100and whatever dmg to themselves...
One of my favorite things realy is power block, turn off all healing from one monk for 15 secs, while i help handle the other monk or caster usualy... i find this real effective...
I almost never run blackout, 5 secs of no skills for both of us isnt that effective in my eyes....
One of my favorite things realy is power block, turn off all healing from one monk for 15 secs, while i help handle the other monk or caster usualy... i find this real effective...
I almost never run blackout, 5 secs of no skills for both of us isnt that effective in my eyes....
Mouse at Large
This is a very interesting discussion
Personally speaking, I like to take things slowly hence my currently lvl 20 unascended build. In my limited experience, this is what I use as a General Purpose" Mesmer (skillbar order)
Wastrels Worry
Conjure Phantasm
Ineptitude (e)
Clumsiness
Spirit Shackles
Backfire
Guilt
Ether Feast
I find that in co-op PvE play with henchies or guildies this combo gives the ability to deal with casters and physical attackers. Sure, I could go to an e-surge/denial build, but when you are dealing with mixed groups, I tend to find the flexibility to directly affect different classes of foe works to the general team's advantage.
As has been mentioned before, all the mesmer class needs to have to get more respect is some graphical representation of the effect their skills on targets. I sometimes wonder if there is a whole bunch of slightly deluded warriors wandering about GW convinced they are invulnerable death dealers after knocking off melee opponents who have been hit by Ineptitude, Clumsiness and Phantasm or casters after Backfire, Guilt and Spirit Shackles.......
Personally speaking, I like to take things slowly hence my currently lvl 20 unascended build. In my limited experience, this is what I use as a General Purpose" Mesmer (skillbar order)
Wastrels Worry
Conjure Phantasm
Ineptitude (e)
Clumsiness
Spirit Shackles
Backfire
Guilt
Ether Feast
I find that in co-op PvE play with henchies or guildies this combo gives the ability to deal with casters and physical attackers. Sure, I could go to an e-surge/denial build, but when you are dealing with mixed groups, I tend to find the flexibility to directly affect different classes of foe works to the general team's advantage.
As has been mentioned before, all the mesmer class needs to have to get more respect is some graphical representation of the effect their skills on targets. I sometimes wonder if there is a whole bunch of slightly deluded warriors wandering about GW convinced they are invulnerable death dealers after knocking off melee opponents who have been hit by Ineptitude, Clumsiness and Phantasm or casters after Backfire, Guilt and Spirit Shackles.......
LightningHell
My PvE build is generally crap...well I'll post it anyways...general build.
Me/E
Fast Casting: 7 +1
Illusion: 10 +1 +1
Inspiration: 9 +1
Air Magic: 10
Blinding Flash
Clumsiness
Spirit Shackles
Ether Feast
Arcane Conundrum
Enervating Charge
Crippling Anguish {E}
Resurrection Signet
Me/E
Fast Casting: 7 +1
Illusion: 10 +1 +1
Inspiration: 9 +1
Air Magic: 10
Blinding Flash
Clumsiness
Spirit Shackles
Ether Feast
Arcane Conundrum
Enervating Charge
Crippling Anguish {E}
Resurrection Signet