Mesmer in PvE improvements
Undivine
I love mesmers. But I must concede that, sadly, mesmers are far more useful in PvP than they are in PvE. This I think stems from the fact that mesmers can do a lot of harm, but to only 1 person at a time. It's a bit sad, actually. People will bring me along in some very specific missions when there's an annoying monk or two they need me to take out, but no one will bother picking me up for anything else. In fact, often when a group really wants me, I have to make my build around 1 specific moment in that mission, and be less useful for the rest of the mission.
Let's start with AOEs. Rangers have Barrage, traps, choking gas and ignite arrow. Necros, the mesmer's hexing cousin, has plenty of things, including AOE hexes, hexes that cause AOE effects around the hexed target, wells, so on, so forth. Eles, warriors, even smiting monks, they all have effective AOEs.
The Mesmer has some AOE spells, but look at them! I've tried a build around Fevered Dreams with a friend who focused on causing conditions, but it didn't achieve a lot for the amount of effort and specialization we had to do.
Signet of Weariness is good, but sucking out 9 or so energy isn't hurting mobs, stopping them, or even slowing them. It's a minor inconvenience for them. Thanks to the effectiveness of the rest of the group, those mobs are going to die before the mana loss has had any chance of turning the tide of battle.
Cry of Frustration costs loads of mana and has a long recast. Rangers can achieve the same effect in rapid succession with choking gas, and they don't even have to time it to the enemy's skill usage. If you time Cry of Frustration badly you just lose 15 mana and an interrupt for 20 seconds - one of your only two interrupts that can interrupt a non-spell.
By comparison, look at how effective the necro is with his spiteful spirit, with his well of profane, with his shadow of fear. These all have devastating effects.
I'm not saying the Mesmer should be like every other class. He should be the king of shutdown, mana denial, trickery, so on. But AOE variants of these would help enormously. Such a thing would help the mesmer in PvE and not overpower him in PvP, since humans are generally smart enough to stay well apart from eachother.
Another problem is recharge. I can brag to my group that I took out that one guy then sat around shooting the next one with my wand waiting for my skills to recharge. Mantra of Recovery is a joke, with it's huge mana cost and elite status.
It is my hope that the skills they introduce in Chapter 2 remedy these PvE woes while still keeping with the theme of the mesmer. I play a mesmer because I like what he can do. But now I'm thinking, what can he do? Seems like the mesmer works best as a secondary class, which I find rather sad.
Let's start with AOEs. Rangers have Barrage, traps, choking gas and ignite arrow. Necros, the mesmer's hexing cousin, has plenty of things, including AOE hexes, hexes that cause AOE effects around the hexed target, wells, so on, so forth. Eles, warriors, even smiting monks, they all have effective AOEs.
The Mesmer has some AOE spells, but look at them! I've tried a build around Fevered Dreams with a friend who focused on causing conditions, but it didn't achieve a lot for the amount of effort and specialization we had to do.
Signet of Weariness is good, but sucking out 9 or so energy isn't hurting mobs, stopping them, or even slowing them. It's a minor inconvenience for them. Thanks to the effectiveness of the rest of the group, those mobs are going to die before the mana loss has had any chance of turning the tide of battle.
Cry of Frustration costs loads of mana and has a long recast. Rangers can achieve the same effect in rapid succession with choking gas, and they don't even have to time it to the enemy's skill usage. If you time Cry of Frustration badly you just lose 15 mana and an interrupt for 20 seconds - one of your only two interrupts that can interrupt a non-spell.
By comparison, look at how effective the necro is with his spiteful spirit, with his well of profane, with his shadow of fear. These all have devastating effects.
I'm not saying the Mesmer should be like every other class. He should be the king of shutdown, mana denial, trickery, so on. But AOE variants of these would help enormously. Such a thing would help the mesmer in PvE and not overpower him in PvP, since humans are generally smart enough to stay well apart from eachother.
Another problem is recharge. I can brag to my group that I took out that one guy then sat around shooting the next one with my wand waiting for my skills to recharge. Mantra of Recovery is a joke, with it's huge mana cost and elite status.
It is my hope that the skills they introduce in Chapter 2 remedy these PvE woes while still keeping with the theme of the mesmer. I play a mesmer because I like what he can do. But now I'm thinking, what can he do? Seems like the mesmer works best as a secondary class, which I find rather sad.
Raxxman
Mesmer isn't your only class. Can't you use the mesmer spells mixed with your secondary to be effective throughout the mission?
Also shutting down monks isn't minor, It makes the game so much easier if the monk kills himself with backfire
Also shutting down monks isn't minor, It makes the game so much easier if the monk kills himself with backfire
ange1
the thing is with mesmer primary, it's hard to find groups in pve
DarkerHelmet
I'm sorry but I disagree, although this is because I'm not focussing on Me skills only perhaps.
I'm a Me/N and I'm now happy with my strongest pve build so far. At first I thought Me were really meant to interrupt casters and such, but recently I changed my build to do real damage, and I love it.
I've put all my attribute points into Illusion (15) and Blood (12) and the rest into fast casting. Here are my skills;
Life Siphon
Conjure Phantasm
Phantom pain or Well of Blood
Vampiric gaze
Shadow strike
Clumsiness
Offering of Blood (E)
Rez signet
I've found this build to take down almost anything I wish, although it certainly isn't a soly build it does help any group to take out foes really quick.
Just start either with life siphon (I only use this a lot when I feel foes will aggro on me or when I'm starting to loose hp) or with shadow strike. Shadow strike does 41dmg and 41 hp stealing with hp>50%, then I cast clumsiness which interrupts next attack and does 92 dmg, most foes are <50% hp by then (if team is taking on that foe), I cast conjure phantasm + LS, use offering of blood, cast Vampiric gaze (52 hp stealing) and if needed shadow strike (I mostly wait for gaze to recharge). 90% of the time the foe is dead at this moment.
The problem with Me of course is the weak armor, aggroing foes on you often result in a quick death even with life stealing from blood magic. Therefor you still need to stay at the back and/or run to safety. Other then that this build allows me to single handed take out lvl28 foes like the gouls in the new UW and most others. I really love it:P
Offering of Blood is the best skill for energy renewal IMO and combined with Vampiric gaze and/or Life siphon and/or Well of Blood you regenerate hp quickly.
I often get nice remarks by players (PUGS) who are surprised that I can outlive most others and still take out enemies after they've died. This is my fourth char and not even that much experience yet (300k) but I prefer it over my Ranger (unless in a trapper group) Warrior and obviously my Mo anytime in pve :P.
I guess there's still things to change to make it even better but until now I'm most happy with my pve Me/N, hope this helps.
I'm a Me/N and I'm now happy with my strongest pve build so far. At first I thought Me were really meant to interrupt casters and such, but recently I changed my build to do real damage, and I love it.
I've put all my attribute points into Illusion (15) and Blood (12) and the rest into fast casting. Here are my skills;
Life Siphon
Conjure Phantasm
Phantom pain or Well of Blood
Vampiric gaze
Shadow strike
Clumsiness
Offering of Blood (E)
Rez signet
I've found this build to take down almost anything I wish, although it certainly isn't a soly build it does help any group to take out foes really quick.
Just start either with life siphon (I only use this a lot when I feel foes will aggro on me or when I'm starting to loose hp) or with shadow strike. Shadow strike does 41dmg and 41 hp stealing with hp>50%, then I cast clumsiness which interrupts next attack and does 92 dmg, most foes are <50% hp by then (if team is taking on that foe), I cast conjure phantasm + LS, use offering of blood, cast Vampiric gaze (52 hp stealing) and if needed shadow strike (I mostly wait for gaze to recharge). 90% of the time the foe is dead at this moment.
The problem with Me of course is the weak armor, aggroing foes on you often result in a quick death even with life stealing from blood magic. Therefor you still need to stay at the back and/or run to safety. Other then that this build allows me to single handed take out lvl28 foes like the gouls in the new UW and most others. I really love it:P
Offering of Blood is the best skill for energy renewal IMO and combined with Vampiric gaze and/or Life siphon and/or Well of Blood you regenerate hp quickly.
I often get nice remarks by players (PUGS) who are surprised that I can outlive most others and still take out enemies after they've died. This is my fourth char and not even that much experience yet (300k) but I prefer it over my Ranger (unless in a trapper group) Warrior and obviously my Mo anytime in pve :P.
I guess there's still things to change to make it even better but until now I'm most happy with my pve Me/N, hope this helps.
Omega X
Yes, mesmers spells exclusively does lack compared to the other classes. But seems to work very well combined with other classes. They should make the Mesmer able to carry itself using the primary only.
jciardha
Hm. Going to make a totally baseless assumption here, so slap me down if I'm totally wrong.
I play with mesmer skills exclusively in PVE, with the occasional Glyph of Renewal from the ele secondary. I've gotten compliments and kudos for basically hosing the opposition, mainly because I don't stay focused on a single target. Instead I switch from target to target, dropping hexes and interrupts, depending upon what that target is doing (split-second snap judgements FTW).
For example, in HOH UW: the first terrorweb dryder gets Power Blocked, the second one has its energy ripped out with Guilt; Wastrel's Worry and Empathy over multiple Grasps of Insanity, Power Drain a terrorweb's Fireball, topped off with an Energy Surge that was stolen from a Scythe of Chaos via Arcane Thievery. And for the record, I've done all listed above that in a single combat in HOH UW.
Oddly enough, I'm almost always the last one in the HOH UW party left standing after a bad pull.
EDIT: I'd really like to see a new mesmer skill in Ch2, that's a combination of Guilt and Backfire, whereby the enemy's spell is actually turned on them. Oops, that poor ele just cast a meteor shower under that hex and wiped out his own party. "Friendly Fire," "Blowback," whatever you want to call it. Probably severely overpowered and open to abuse, but it would fit in with what the mesmer concept is.
I play with mesmer skills exclusively in PVE, with the occasional Glyph of Renewal from the ele secondary. I've gotten compliments and kudos for basically hosing the opposition, mainly because I don't stay focused on a single target. Instead I switch from target to target, dropping hexes and interrupts, depending upon what that target is doing (split-second snap judgements FTW).
For example, in HOH UW: the first terrorweb dryder gets Power Blocked, the second one has its energy ripped out with Guilt; Wastrel's Worry and Empathy over multiple Grasps of Insanity, Power Drain a terrorweb's Fireball, topped off with an Energy Surge that was stolen from a Scythe of Chaos via Arcane Thievery. And for the record, I've done all listed above that in a single combat in HOH UW.
Oddly enough, I'm almost always the last one in the HOH UW party left standing after a bad pull.
EDIT: I'd really like to see a new mesmer skill in Ch2, that's a combination of Guilt and Backfire, whereby the enemy's spell is actually turned on them. Oops, that poor ele just cast a meteor shower under that hex and wiped out his own party. "Friendly Fire," "Blowback," whatever you want to call it. Probably severely overpowered and open to abuse, but it would fit in with what the mesmer concept is.
Jetdoc
I can solo very effectively with my N/Me, and sometimes wish that I had a Me/N because of the slow cast time of some of my necro spells.
I use 50% Me and 50% N skills, so it shows that Mesmers can be very effective in PvE, even in a solo situation.
The key is that you are a caster and accordingly you can't just stand there and take a pounding. Use hit and run tactics and you'll be surprised how effective you can be, especially if you create a few minions or use pets to distract your foes while you stand back and debilitate them.
I use 50% Me and 50% N skills, so it shows that Mesmers can be very effective in PvE, even in a solo situation.
The key is that you are a caster and accordingly you can't just stand there and take a pounding. Use hit and run tactics and you'll be surprised how effective you can be, especially if you create a few minions or use pets to distract your foes while you stand back and debilitate them.
Cherno
I think part of the problem (and one I haven't even attempted to master yet myself) is that a mesmer is most effective when they are switching between targets in a mob. Most of the other characters are "Called target, attack until dead, move to the next target"
I find myself doign that with my mesmer too. So while I may be sucessfully interrupting the hell out of one elementalist, the one right next to us is still doing dmg.
The long recharge times of interrupts really hurts. The cheapest one is 10 or 15 seconds? So if you really want to be strong interrupt, you have to bring 2 or three different ones (and take into account interrupting more than just spells), thus cutting down your options on other offensive spells you can bring. If you miss with that interrupt, it sucks.
I was really disappointed with one of the best early (or late) spells for a mesmer, Chaos Storm. Such a cool spell and almost unusable now since the monsters run out of it almost immediately. Yes that's the smart thing to do and should be the way the AI is programmed, but it renders the spell useless for me.
I find myself doign that with my mesmer too. So while I may be sucessfully interrupting the hell out of one elementalist, the one right next to us is still doing dmg.
The long recharge times of interrupts really hurts. The cheapest one is 10 or 15 seconds? So if you really want to be strong interrupt, you have to bring 2 or three different ones (and take into account interrupting more than just spells), thus cutting down your options on other offensive spells you can bring. If you miss with that interrupt, it sucks.
I was really disappointed with one of the best early (or late) spells for a mesmer, Chaos Storm. Such a cool spell and almost unusable now since the monsters run out of it almost immediately. Yes that's the smart thing to do and should be the way the AI is programmed, but it renders the spell useless for me.
QuixotesGhost
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undivine
Mantra of Recovery is a joke, with it's huge mana cost and elite status.
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Rayne Nightfyre
I'm going to have to agree with Jciardha here. For one thing, AoE does not equal effectiveness. True, mesmers don't have a ton of AoE's outside of those that make surrounding enemies lose energy, and Energy Surge, but "Nuking" is not their job. If you're only focusing on one enemy at a time, you're not much of a help. Let's say that you're facing a mob consisting of warriors, elementalists, and a monk. I'll hex a warrior with Clumsiness+Ineptitude, and it'll be shutdown for a bit. The hex another with Empathy, and let it damage itself. Then slap Backfire on the Elementalist, and let it kill itself in just a few casts. And for the annoying monk, put up Arcane Conundrum and start the interupting. As in that case, a Mesmer can pretty much shut down a whole mob of enemies, usually long enough for your party to kill them. And no, Mesmer skills do not necessarily lack when compared to other professions. They're just not your typical, mindless AoE spamming. It just takes more thought and preparation than the others, which is what drew me to play as a Mesmer. I can't wait to see what the new Mesmer skills will be, but as of the moment, PvE Mesmers(who know what they're doing) are not lacking, and do just fine.
Undivine
Please guys, I'm not a noob. When I say mesmers could use an AOE I don't mean nuking. Mesmers are not nukes, and I know that very well. I know how to play a mesmer very effectively. I've been playing him for close to about 10 months now, on and off.
But I've played other classes too, and despite how powerful Mesmers can be, there's very little reason to bring a mesmer over a different class to a mission unless there is a special case.
Case in point. It is possible to complete the Tombs Underworld with no more than an ele, a necro, a ranger, and a monk. In fact, with the right group setup, a lot of places can be done with very few people, most of the time not including Mesmers. These groups can face 10 enemies all at once. A mesmer can shut down 3 or 4 enemies in one "casting" which is what I call the period of time before you run out of spells to cast and have to sit on your hands waiting for them to recharge.
I do switch targets in battle, but I still find myself achieving more when I play other classes. Often times when I shut down an enemy, they die the next moment by my team mate's efforts anyway. Mesmers can do devastating things to bosses and creatures who are going to live long, but there's so very little they can do to the drones.
Most importantly, people generally do not see the value of mesmers. Call them ignorant if you like, but those ignorant people are everywhere and thus my mesmer can never find a group. Even when I play with my guild, they'd prefer I bring my ranger or my monk.
And I am talking about being mostly or entirely mesmer. I know mesmers make great secondaries.
But I've played other classes too, and despite how powerful Mesmers can be, there's very little reason to bring a mesmer over a different class to a mission unless there is a special case.
Case in point. It is possible to complete the Tombs Underworld with no more than an ele, a necro, a ranger, and a monk. In fact, with the right group setup, a lot of places can be done with very few people, most of the time not including Mesmers. These groups can face 10 enemies all at once. A mesmer can shut down 3 or 4 enemies in one "casting" which is what I call the period of time before you run out of spells to cast and have to sit on your hands waiting for them to recharge.
I do switch targets in battle, but I still find myself achieving more when I play other classes. Often times when I shut down an enemy, they die the next moment by my team mate's efforts anyway. Mesmers can do devastating things to bosses and creatures who are going to live long, but there's so very little they can do to the drones.
Most importantly, people generally do not see the value of mesmers. Call them ignorant if you like, but those ignorant people are everywhere and thus my mesmer can never find a group. Even when I play with my guild, they'd prefer I bring my ranger or my monk.
And I am talking about being mostly or entirely mesmer. I know mesmers make great secondaries.
QuixotesGhost
The problem lies more in the stupidity and poor skill setups of PvE monsters than in inherent flaws of the mesmer profession. If we see more improvments like the AOE Fix then we can expect to see mesmers (and shutdown in general) play a bigger role in PvE.
Mavrik
I'm a PvE Mesmer/Ele and to be honest I do not even use any ele skills and I do not have any points to any ele attributes. Primary Mesmer basicly and I do not have any problems. I was helping with some missions last night and was casting backfire on monks and bosses. One killed himself after casting two skills within 7 seconds which was hilarious to see. But a few people are ignorant to the fact that mesmers can kick some serious ass in PvE. I can get into a group and shut down every skill I can possible and the only comment I might get is "Why does the enemy's health turn purple?" like they have no idea what I'm doing. It would be nice if the mesmer had more multi enemy dealing skills, of that I will agree. It would be nice to cast a skill that cost 3 or more enemies in the area, -5 health degain hehe.
Undivine
You may be right QuixotesGhost. Spiteful Spirit is really popular right now only because it is an area effect that the AI does not consider an area effect. The AI does not run away from their own allies.
On the other hand, so many spells are AOE, and it would be a bit of a shame for the other classes to have to put up with further AOE nurfing.
Area -5 degen sounds very nice, though I was thinking more along the lines of AOE shutdown or better AOE mana denial. I really like Signet of Weariness, frankly, but it has a long recast, even with Mantra of Inscriptions.
On the other hand, so many spells are AOE, and it would be a bit of a shame for the other classes to have to put up with further AOE nurfing.
Area -5 degen sounds very nice, though I was thinking more along the lines of AOE shutdown or better AOE mana denial. I really like Signet of Weariness, frankly, but it has a long recast, even with Mantra of Inscriptions.
nitrile
I also have a PvE mesmer (using never less than 6 mesmer skills) and though one of my favourite chars to play I actually get to do so the least. To an extent I agree with the utility of having some more AoE skills, and that the "Cry of Frustration" is too often my own when I miss. But I don't personally think, in general that area of effect is the mesmer style. Sure for others choking gas interrupts but it doesn't damage or sap/steal energy. An Elementalist's Maelstrom everything walks out from under, except for the hench healers, so even playing to a secondary isn't a crutch for AoE interrupt and denial; and they can't do what we can do even with what we have.
Of course none of this helps us in pve. There is no easy solution to that; maybe an elite skill that can proof ally/other ally against an interrupt (linked to fast casting if you could arrange it to make sense under that). One thing that does bother me though, is if we're given a new powerful skill akin to SS (not in function, but rather as the only elite skill non-mesmers ever hear of) is that that you would never get into a team without using it. Yes, we're unknown and rarely welcomed by a pick up group but at least in our exile we get to choose our own way to fight.
Area -5 degen is really not very different from a well of suffering, or for that matter a stronger 'suffering', both already existing under necromancer attributes.
It's my opinion that mesmer pve problems stem from ignorance. I'm not saying that people are stupid (though god knows so many are), but they don't see what happens. In a fight, it's difficult sometimes to track what others are doing. It's been said before that when damage bars don't go down around elementalists, people think "wow, gr8 monk" or when things just fall over they think "wow, those level 28 creatures must be wearing ascalon armour" and when the seige wurms just sit and do nothing for 60 seconds they think "damn anet, another bug, they really need to fix this. why does it only happen when there's a mesmer in my party? i'm going to stop bringing them". What is needed is clearer feedback. I don't know if this means all mesmer skills should produce more purple pyrotecnics than new year celebrations but it would be a start. We're powerful enough, played right. if you want AoE interrupt be a water ele secondary or ranger.
Probably doesn't help that Dunham sucks so badly either.
Of course none of this helps us in pve. There is no easy solution to that; maybe an elite skill that can proof ally/other ally against an interrupt (linked to fast casting if you could arrange it to make sense under that). One thing that does bother me though, is if we're given a new powerful skill akin to SS (not in function, but rather as the only elite skill non-mesmers ever hear of) is that that you would never get into a team without using it. Yes, we're unknown and rarely welcomed by a pick up group but at least in our exile we get to choose our own way to fight.
Area -5 degen is really not very different from a well of suffering, or for that matter a stronger 'suffering', both already existing under necromancer attributes.
It's my opinion that mesmer pve problems stem from ignorance. I'm not saying that people are stupid (though god knows so many are), but they don't see what happens. In a fight, it's difficult sometimes to track what others are doing. It's been said before that when damage bars don't go down around elementalists, people think "wow, gr8 monk" or when things just fall over they think "wow, those level 28 creatures must be wearing ascalon armour" and when the seige wurms just sit and do nothing for 60 seconds they think "damn anet, another bug, they really need to fix this. why does it only happen when there's a mesmer in my party? i'm going to stop bringing them". What is needed is clearer feedback. I don't know if this means all mesmer skills should produce more purple pyrotecnics than new year celebrations but it would be a start. We're powerful enough, played right. if you want AoE interrupt be a water ele secondary or ranger.
Probably doesn't help that Dunham sucks so badly either.
Undivine
Well I agree with much of what you said nitrile. There is ignorance due to a lack of feedback. But even I am losing faith, being a die hard mesmer fan.
Perhaps part of it is that I used to play an Enchanter in EverQuest. Ah, that was an awesome "sublte caster" class. Most groups viewed the enchanter as essential. We boosted the group's mana, stunned the enemies, weakened them, and best of all, mesmerized them (which works like a stronger Pacifism spell). There were many times when I would save the group from certain doom as an enchanter.
Now I know this is a completely different game and the mesmer, while a bit similar, is different, but I think the comparison of balance is relevant. In EverQuest, the enchanter's spells were very effective because a group would fight only 1 or 2 at a time and the enemies lived for several minutes during that battle. In Guild Wars the enemies are many and they don't have a long life span, except perhaps in PvP where the mesmer shines. I think ANet took inspiration from the EverQuest enchanter, as a lot of MMORPGs have, but it doesn't translate as well for the reasons above.
Really, what does shutdown actually do? Which is the more effective shutdown: mesmer shutdown or death? Groups can kill enemies very quickly sometimes that shutdown is a waste. In these cases, at least we have our trickery spells like backfire. But everything is so situational that we still need to bring those shutdown spells, at the expense of our other abilities, just for the occasion when we actually will need it.
I really think there are more reasons why mesmers don't get picked up than simple ignorance. We are lacking something. Each class can be seen as contributing something essential. Mesmers, on the other hand, are simply "nice to have."
Perhaps part of it is that I used to play an Enchanter in EverQuest. Ah, that was an awesome "sublte caster" class. Most groups viewed the enchanter as essential. We boosted the group's mana, stunned the enemies, weakened them, and best of all, mesmerized them (which works like a stronger Pacifism spell). There were many times when I would save the group from certain doom as an enchanter.
Now I know this is a completely different game and the mesmer, while a bit similar, is different, but I think the comparison of balance is relevant. In EverQuest, the enchanter's spells were very effective because a group would fight only 1 or 2 at a time and the enemies lived for several minutes during that battle. In Guild Wars the enemies are many and they don't have a long life span, except perhaps in PvP where the mesmer shines. I think ANet took inspiration from the EverQuest enchanter, as a lot of MMORPGs have, but it doesn't translate as well for the reasons above.
Really, what does shutdown actually do? Which is the more effective shutdown: mesmer shutdown or death? Groups can kill enemies very quickly sometimes that shutdown is a waste. In these cases, at least we have our trickery spells like backfire. But everything is so situational that we still need to bring those shutdown spells, at the expense of our other abilities, just for the occasion when we actually will need it.
I really think there are more reasons why mesmers don't get picked up than simple ignorance. We are lacking something. Each class can be seen as contributing something essential. Mesmers, on the other hand, are simply "nice to have."
nitrile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undivine
Perhaps part of it is that I used to play an Enchanter in EverQuest. Ah, that was an awesome "sublte caster" class. Most groups viewed the enchanter as essential. We boosted the group's mana, stunned the enemies, weakened them, and best of all, mesmerized them (which works like a stronger Pacifism spell). There were many times when I would save the group from certain doom as an enchanter.
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Regarding shutdown, I would essentially agree with you, though shutdown on certain targets for 10-15 seconds can make all the difference. Perhaps the only way to make shutdown consistently worthwhile is to add a healer (or two) to every mob. Then a group's option is to bring them down by brute force (takes time) or bring a mesmer to deactivate the healers. A good example of this is the small mobs at the entrances to grenth's footprint which happen to contain dual priests. However this sort of change won't be made retroactively.
Maybe it's just the situation that mesmers aren't so much lacking in themselves (which I believe pvp rather proves; but I don't pvp) , in so much that what I'll call (for sake of argument) traditional enchanter skills are replicated sufficiently well among other classes as to render a specialist unecessary against so many low variety mobs. It's regrettable but a fact that people would rather take a third monk just as insurance against one leaving or disconnecting, because while a shutdown mesmer can protect and negate damage (I play monk often, and it's never so easy than when I go into fissure with a good mesmer), he can't also heal. As you said, one is helpful; the other necessary.
The more I think about this in detail, the more complicated seem the issues against us. Nevertheless I look forward to chapter 2 with some optimism.
Mavrik
perhaps what is needed now is for Anet to show enemies energy lv as they already do with health. For example as it would help us mesmers to know how much energy we have left to strip away. We have skills that cause health damage if the enemy loses all their energy. I never know when to use that skill though... But imagine, your in a group, your a warrior lets say. Your attacking a wurm. You see the slow decline of the health of the wurm yet under it is a blue like. Its dropping fast, the wurm takes damage when it hits zero. The wurm takes damage every time a skill is interupted... This is all thanks to the mesmer draining and shutting that wurm down. You can actually see whats being done.
I think this would open a lot of people's eyes to the usefulness of mesmers. Instead most have the train of thought that "Well I can kill it fast enough, it doesn't matter what it casts." But if they could actually see what the mesmer is doing, that he/she is not just standing there waving a wand. If they could see every time a mesmer interupts a skill, drains its health, its energy, hurts it every time it attacks with skills and spells. I've had enemies kill themselves just attacking my mesmer while I did not even attack them with my weapon. Just with skills. Its so fun.
I think this would open a lot of people's eyes to the usefulness of mesmers. Instead most have the train of thought that "Well I can kill it fast enough, it doesn't matter what it casts." But if they could actually see what the mesmer is doing, that he/she is not just standing there waving a wand. If they could see every time a mesmer interupts a skill, drains its health, its energy, hurts it every time it attacks with skills and spells. I've had enemies kill themselves just attacking my mesmer while I did not even attack them with my weapon. Just with skills. Its so fun.
Kool Pajamas
I think the most important thing is that Anet develops some better Monster AI and groupings. Instead of having a large mob of 20 warrior or ele enemies, have a smaller more balanced group more like you would see in Pvp. More monk enemies mixed in. A lot of monster groups have about 1 monk to heal about 20 warriors or Rangers.
And the monsters should have a better skill selection. It seems most monsters have about 3 skills that they use.
And choas storm should be enlargened and/or have its recharge reduced.
And the monsters should have a better skill selection. It seems most monsters have about 3 skills that they use.
And choas storm should be enlargened and/or have its recharge reduced.
Kook~NBK~
I love my Mesmer skills! You CAN spread the damage around using mesmer skills alone. - put Backfire on a caster, Empathy on a melee creature, and use interrupts / energy degens on differnt caster (or casters) Although a mesmer is not cut out to for solo farming, in PvE teams, a mesmer can do a great amount to help decimate a mob real quick and in a hurry!
Misc Merik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undivine
I love mesmers. But I must concede that, sadly, mesmers are far more useful in PvP than they are in PvE. This I think stems from the fact that mesmers can do a lot of harm, but to only 1 person at a time. It's a bit sad, actually.
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Guardian of the Light
Mesmers are good in PvE just a bunch of morons think they aren't good.
They can fast cast nuke and stuff and it REALLY helps to have an anti-casters killing a monk boss. I PASSED thunderhead by leading a group and I had a mesmer in the group in case we ran into a MONK BOSS .
Mesmers are good just the morons who think their weak are noobs.
End of Story.
They can fast cast nuke and stuff and it REALLY helps to have an anti-casters killing a monk boss. I PASSED thunderhead by leading a group and I had a mesmer in the group in case we ran into a MONK BOSS .
Mesmers are good just the morons who think their weak are noobs.
End of Story.
Rayne Nightfyre
Agreed, Guardian. Although I wouldn't call them "noobs," they just let the stereotype of the few bad mesmers who slap Backfire on Warriors and Empathy on Casters overtake their overall perception of Mesmers. (My point: Mesmers ftw )
Avarre
Bah, puremesmer is fine in PvE...
However, my constant complant... Most skills in the game have an elite version. I'm sure most of you know them... bond -> barrier, 'zerker rage -> battle rage, burn -> surge.
So why is the empathy elite in an entire different class? Yes, you know what I speak of, Spiteful Spirit. The effect is clearly the elite form of empathy, and it is just as clear that it isn't where it's supposed to be.
Yes to what was said earlier, mantra of recovery is devastating. With a slight energy management, you can rain 5s recharge empathy on the map, and have interrupts that recharge fast enough to actually catch the spell when it's recast.
But enough of that... wheres our PvE upgrade?
However, my constant complant... Most skills in the game have an elite version. I'm sure most of you know them... bond -> barrier, 'zerker rage -> battle rage, burn -> surge.
So why is the empathy elite in an entire different class? Yes, you know what I speak of, Spiteful Spirit. The effect is clearly the elite form of empathy, and it is just as clear that it isn't where it's supposed to be.
Yes to what was said earlier, mantra of recovery is devastating. With a slight energy management, you can rain 5s recharge empathy on the map, and have interrupts that recharge fast enough to actually catch the spell when it's recast.
But enough of that... wheres our PvE upgrade?
Fantus
Why should Mesmers be weak in PvE just because they focus on one target and not AoE? What's bad about picking the most powerful target in an enemy group and just take it out quickly? Usually, disabling the strongest foe in a group will result in a quick win by the party.
You got a problem with a monk boss? Not with a Mesmer!
Priest of Sorrows annoy you? Not with a Mesmer!
Siege Wurms lauching missiles on you? Not with a Mesmer!
Most people who think Mesmers suck in PvE would probably be suprised to see how a Mesmer and 4 henchies can do SF farming just as effectivly as most cookie cutter builds could...
And if you think a Mesmer can do no damage, just add up the total damage a Shatter Enchantment, Power Spike, E-Surge, E-Burn Series does... Can you do THAT with a warrior in like 10 seconds, too?
You got a problem with a monk boss? Not with a Mesmer!
Priest of Sorrows annoy you? Not with a Mesmer!
Siege Wurms lauching missiles on you? Not with a Mesmer!
Most people who think Mesmers suck in PvE would probably be suprised to see how a Mesmer and 4 henchies can do SF farming just as effectivly as most cookie cutter builds could...
And if you think a Mesmer can do no damage, just add up the total damage a Shatter Enchantment, Power Spike, E-Surge, E-Burn Series does... Can you do THAT with a warrior in like 10 seconds, too?
Undivine
Oh, I know how good a mesmer is. I've disabled those seige wurms, thrashed those monks, and stopped those resurrections. I know the kind of damage a mesmer can do in the right conditions. Mesmers, I guess you could say, are problem solvers. Why then does nobody want a mesmer over someone else? Truthfully, I'm starting to think they're right.
As I keep saying, we're just too darn specialized. We solve specific problems, not general ones. And often times the other classes can make up for it. Sure, we can do damage, but the ele is Mr. Damage. We can interrupt, but frankly Rangers are so much better at it than we. Don't deny it! They are.
I don't want to labour the point I've been making over and over again. I say more AOEs simply because they greatly enhance a class' ability in PvE without really changing anything in PvP.
And Avarre's right. Spiteful Spirit should've been ours!!!
As I keep saying, we're just too darn specialized. We solve specific problems, not general ones. And often times the other classes can make up for it. Sure, we can do damage, but the ele is Mr. Damage. We can interrupt, but frankly Rangers are so much better at it than we. Don't deny it! They are.
I don't want to labour the point I've been making over and over again. I say more AOEs simply because they greatly enhance a class' ability in PvE without really changing anything in PvP.
And Avarre's right. Spiteful Spirit should've been ours!!!
jciardha
Whenever my guild wants me to bring my ranger along for HOH UW for interrupts, I never let them forget two things during the entire trip:
1) Line of Sight required
2) Arrow flight time from bow to target
Oh, yes, and Maelstrom should have been ours too. It what Chaos Storm should have been.
1) Line of Sight required
2) Arrow flight time from bow to target
Oh, yes, and Maelstrom should have been ours too. It what Chaos Storm should have been.
Undivine
Quote:
Originally Posted by jciardha
1) Line of Sight required
2) Arrow flight time from bow to target |
The line of sight requirement is an issue, but that is more than made up for with the inexpensive energy cost and the fast reuse. Oh, and also the longer range on a long bow. AI enemies rarely use the line of sight requirement to their advantage. PvP is something else, in which case both mesmers and rangers have their pros and cons, since the mesmer also drains energy, blocks spells, or does damage when they interrupt.
But as a professional interrupter, rangers are better. What other class can interrupt 5 spells, one cast right after the other, in 5 seconds, using only 2 skills (Choking Gas and Tiger's Fury) and still have other interruption skills at their disposal waiting to be used if necessary?
Roupe
suggestion of skills
Illusion of allies
5 energy 10 seconds cast time
Creates (min max 5) illusionary allies for a duration of 30-120 seconds, Illusionary forces neither deal nor recive damage, but will engage & hinder hostile enemies in the near vicinity.
Illusion of obstacle
area
cost 15 energy cast time 10
Creates a illusionary obstacle for a duration of 30-120 seconds, foes will see a obstacle in the area, but can move through it but doing so will slow them 50% while in area of Illusion of obstacle.
Envoke mistrust (elite)
Dominion
cost 15 energy cast time 10
for a duration of 30-120 seconds other foes & skill effects from other foes will regard target foe as hostile.
Illusion of allies
5 energy 10 seconds cast time
Creates (min max 5) illusionary allies for a duration of 30-120 seconds, Illusionary forces neither deal nor recive damage, but will engage & hinder hostile enemies in the near vicinity.
Illusion of obstacle
area
cost 15 energy cast time 10
Creates a illusionary obstacle for a duration of 30-120 seconds, foes will see a obstacle in the area, but can move through it but doing so will slow them 50% while in area of Illusion of obstacle.
Envoke mistrust (elite)
Dominion
cost 15 energy cast time 10
for a duration of 30-120 seconds other foes & skill effects from other foes will regard target foe as hostile.
Mavrik
I could see cries for NERF on Envoke Mistrust but I would LOVE to have a skill like that on my mesmer.
Roupe
Well yes, it may need some Nerf, But i feel that a mind bending mesmers should be feared by an opposing party.
here is another
Chain of doom
Hex
5 energy cast 5 seconds
Target foe suffers from -3 health degeneration, if target foe touches another foe , the other foe is struck by a new Chain of doom and you lose 5 energy. Chain of doom lasts (Min: 10 - Max: 25)
here is another
Chain of doom
Hex
5 energy cast 5 seconds
Target foe suffers from -3 health degeneration, if target foe touches another foe , the other foe is struck by a new Chain of doom and you lose 5 energy. Chain of doom lasts (Min: 10 - Max: 25)
Avarre
Avarre can design skills too!
Ether Sunder {E}
Spell
15e 1/4s 30s
All foes in the area are interrupted if they were using a skill. If they were interrupted, that skill is disabled for X seconds and they lose Y energy.
(GIANT STOMP FTW!! The spell to end all the spike builds in HoH)
Spell Mirror
Stance
5e 20s
The next time a spell strikes you, the effects are dealt to the caster instead.
(Obviously this won't work for parasitic hexes like Life Transfer or Ether Lord, which would just be cancelled by the stance. Basically a magic form of Hex Breaker).
Spell Mirror being a castable spell would be awesome, but simply overpowered.
Oh, and Mist form should have been ours, under the name Illusionary Mantle. Give it back. Along with Empathetic Wrackings (Spiteful Spirit) and Maelstrom (Chaos Storm), and quite possibly Spell Breaker (Ether Shield).
Mesmers are so awesome, other classes stole our skills and renamed them. And we know it
Ether Sunder {E}
Spell
15e 1/4s 30s
All foes in the area are interrupted if they were using a skill. If they were interrupted, that skill is disabled for X seconds and they lose Y energy.
(GIANT STOMP FTW!! The spell to end all the spike builds in HoH)
Spell Mirror
Stance
5e 20s
The next time a spell strikes you, the effects are dealt to the caster instead.
(Obviously this won't work for parasitic hexes like Life Transfer or Ether Lord, which would just be cancelled by the stance. Basically a magic form of Hex Breaker).
Spell Mirror being a castable spell would be awesome, but simply overpowered.
Oh, and Mist form should have been ours, under the name Illusionary Mantle. Give it back. Along with Empathetic Wrackings (Spiteful Spirit) and Maelstrom (Chaos Storm), and quite possibly Spell Breaker (Ether Shield).
Mesmers are so awesome, other classes stole our skills and renamed them. And we know it
Roupe
Ether Vengance (elite)
Elite Enchantment. For (Min: 5 - Max: 17) seconds, enemy Spells targeted against target ally have an additional energy cost of 2 and causes exhaustion
Elite Enchantment. For (Min: 5 - Max: 17) seconds, enemy Spells targeted against target ally have an additional energy cost of 2 and causes exhaustion
Avarre
Slight modification to that
Ether Veil
Elite enchantment spell. While you maintain this enchantment, enemy spells targeted against target ally have and additional energy cost of 2 and cause exhaustion. When Ether Veil ends, all nearby foes are interrupted if using a spell.
Stealing the holy veil elite for the win! Although modded so that the effect is quite clearly mesmerish.
Ether Veil
Elite enchantment spell. While you maintain this enchantment, enemy spells targeted against target ally have and additional energy cost of 2 and cause exhaustion. When Ether Veil ends, all nearby foes are interrupted if using a spell.
Stealing the holy veil elite for the win! Although modded so that the effect is quite clearly mesmerish.
jciardha
Ranger and mesmer interrupts both have their advantages and disadvantages. As a mesmer, I wish we had a cheap interrupt that had an effect like the ranger's Distracting Shot. As a ranger, I find myself cursing and swearing if I get blocked trying to position myself in an ideal line of sight spot to interrupt. Different flavors of interruption, IMHO.
Anyway, during the PVP Weekend, I unlocked an Assassin skill (non-elite!) that looks it was stolen straight out of the mesmer playbook. Sure, it's just preliminary, and I hope that mesmer skills get a similar buff in Factions, but:
Shameful Fear - Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, target foe moves 10% faster than normal. For each second, if that foe is moving, that foe takes 5...17 damage.
That should be ours! Give it back!
Anyway, during the PVP Weekend, I unlocked an Assassin skill (non-elite!) that looks it was stolen straight out of the mesmer playbook. Sure, it's just preliminary, and I hope that mesmer skills get a similar buff in Factions, but:
Shameful Fear - Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, target foe moves 10% faster than normal. For each second, if that foe is moving, that foe takes 5...17 damage.
That should be ours! Give it back!