Guide to being successful in the PvE Tombs

Caleb

Caleb

Nil nisi malis terrori.

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathqueen
But, nevertheless W/Mo's are just as effective as any other.
While staying out of your smiling and pissing contest, I would like to state for anyone reading this that you are unequivocally wrong in this assumption.

Anyone with knowledge of Finger of Chaos (which is anyone who has read this and the other 50 threads on the skill here at Guru) is aware that an enchantment is stripped from X/M and M/X each time they are attacked by this skill.

A mesmer secondary has no such similar effect when attacked with this skill.

To say that the /Mo is just as effective cannot be true, as unless you are solo'ing the ToPK, there are others in your group. You are using more of their healing/protection resources than necessary by allowing every enchantment cast on you to be stripped. This is not beneficial to any group, and certainly not as effective as a secondary with no similar effect.

Don't be afraid to try a different secondary. You may find you enjoy tanking much more when you are maintaining life bond, life barrier, healing seed, healing breeze, Spell Breaker, etc. You may not even have to worry about being able to run away and rebirth your team, as the monks will be able to use their energy to heal someone other than the w/monks. Let a ranger or mesmer with monk secondary worry about being the "last resort" rebirther - they are not the front line aggro holder that is getting hit by finger of chaos 100 times a map.

Deathqueen

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

The overall mission objective is to complete the mission correct? Therefore any W/? or W/Mo that completes the objective is just as effective in the overall objective. That's like saying Conan is the only valuable person in the group and Wilt Chamberlain wasn't needed. When the objective is reached, every class in that group is just as effective as any other class in any other group that completed the objective. That is fact, that is point and there is no way around it.

You people are too narrowminded and live too much by the numbers, there's more to this game than a strict set of numbers. Effectiveness is not by the numbers but by "skill" and the individual.

Caleb

Caleb

Nil nisi malis terrori.

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/Me

By your analogy, I am as effective a bicycle rider as Lance Armstrong. We both turn the peddles and get to our destination.

An interesting stance you've taken there. Everything is equal as long as the goal is achieved in the end?

We are not being narrow minded by pointing out that you are crippling both healing monks and protection monks ability to protect you and your teammates simply by refusing to adapt to situations as they dictate. It is not "bad" to change your skill set once in awhile dependant on the monsters you will face - in fact, your groups will thank you immensely for it.

I'm through with this topic, it's been demonstrated several times by different posters why W/Mo is the worst choice for a secondary for your tank. I only wanted to reiterate to the readers exactly what Finger of Chaos does to a X/Mo, and those looking to be a benefit rather than a hinderance to their team will change secondary when playing the primary tank.

Everyone should enjoy the game however they choose, I concur. I enjoy the game far more in a group where people put the group's dynamics and overall efficacy ahead of their personal need to be the savior with rebirth.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo



If you are the tank and you are:

W/Mo means you lose any enchantments very easily (poor prot monk)

W/R means your stances will not work very well.

W/E means you will get interupted (God this must suck)

W/N means your enemies lose their hexes whenever they hit you.

Imo: W/N and W/Me are the best viable options. Necro has plague sending and such while Mesmer has elemental and physical resistance stances

Uzul

Uzul

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Arctic Tundra

Pints N Quarts [PsQs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathqueen
[...]
You people are too narrowminded [...]
^^ Boingflip!

if you would have the slightest understanding on what fingers of chaos does you will know what a big bunch of CRAP (yes i said it, now what?) you are talking.

i won't start to explain YET AGAIN why there is no need for warriors down there (which get loaded with conditions anyway... go blinded warrior!) - but let me tell you this deathqueen. click page 1 and start reading the posts that were made after the op tried to lure everyone into certain death (/sarcasm) -- you might get a picture of why the person who is supposed to hold the aggro in its place shouldn't get his enchantments removed with every hit.


edit: thanks for the pic lyra. maybe more people will understand it now.
for the tanks: w/n is not so useful when you have a curses necro or mesmer with you - you wont be able to keep hexes on the foes. best solution would be mesmer 2ndary - iw works while blinded, so does glads if you just wanna stand there taking the beating

--------------------------------------
back to topic: a lot of good suggestions in here (from people who know what they are talking about) and anyone with a brain should be able to differ between those posts and the joke ones in between. X_x


funny thread Oo

kvndoom

kvndoom

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Communistwealth of Virginia

Uninstalled

W/Mo

Here's mine:

The Rockmolder (thanks MeNoFat!!!) means I always have 12 energy hidden from the Fear Me spams, so I can switch, cast Physical Resistance or IW, then switch back to the IDS (and 36 seconds of IW is really really nice). Our Necro uses Spinal Shivers, so the IDS is steady interrupts. Plus a Monk with Martyr or Restore Conditions is truly your best friend.

Watch Yourself is really better overall than PR, but I just switched it for a test run last night. I'll likely go back to it and put Illusion back up to 12 next go round.

Our guild won't even do PUG's anymore, we've had such bad experiences. But I have the luxury of being in a very large guild, so I guess everyone else's mileage will vary.

Fungus Amongus

Fungus Amongus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] | [Rare] Alliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious
Also your advice at being a necro is bad....monk skills used on your Minions kill them faster (or make them degenerate hp faster) such as heal area.....not a smart necro are we now
That's been proven to be complete rubbish. I have tested it and one of my guildmates has tested this.

Heal area is practically always in my bar when running MM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious
not a smart necro are we now
Carinae?

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Imo: W/N and W/Me are the best viable options. Necro has plague sending and such while Mesmer has elemental and physical resistance stances
Unless you are running any hexes, like a spitefull necro. In which case your spitefulls would be getting stripped off very quickly. W/Me is definately the way forward.

We also played with Mantra of Flame on our tanks, as one of the largest sources of damage down there is the Fireball spamming dryders. It helped quite a lot.

Linsys

Linsys

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Afk Mac N Cheeze Dun [LOOL]

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathqueen
The overall mission objective is to complete the mission correct? Therefore any W/? or W/Mo that completes the objective is just as effective in the overall objective. That's like saying Conan is the only valuable person in the group and Wilt Chamberlain wasn't needed. When the objective is reached, every class in that group is just as effective as any other class in any other group that completed the objective. That is fact, that is point and there is no way around it.

You people are too narrowminded and live too much by the numbers, there's more to this game than a strict set of numbers. Effectiveness is not by the numbers but by "skill" and the individual.

You have no clue what you are talking about.... as a MONK I refuse to go in with a W/Mo since they make me work harder to keep them alive.. please read the thread and understand that you limit your monk to about 3 effective spells.... maybe you don't realize the importance of "ENCHANTMENTS" like Seed or prot spirit but these become USELESS because you play as a W/Mo...

You can be as hard headed about this as you want, but eventually people will GET it and stop inviting you in their team.. I know plenty of monks who refuse to go into Tombs with a W/Mo.

This has NOTHING to do with skillz this is about reality... if a monster is going to strip all your enchantments, then I have ONE option as a monk and that is to spam Orison, Word, Kiss, and Heal Other... which turns out to be a lame build which drains my energy...

Fred Kiwi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

[cola]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathqueen
Well he should have stated that then. But, nevertheless W/Mo's are just as effective as any other. I've been thru 4 times, completed them all and got excellent drops. So, I'll continue to play my way and he can go whatever himself. (Smile) I certainly don't have any problems getting into groups. (smile)
can you stop (smiling) please, its possibly the lamest phrase I've seen on here

saphir

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

doa

Mo/

As a monk (I run a very similar build to Desbreko, and his insights are very much what we monks go through everytime keeping a party alive and kicking) I must agree with the "benefits" of having a w/mo tank.

Nothing is worse than a non-stance w/mo as they can barely keep themselves alive most of the time, and you're just down to spamming word and orison and whatever other low energy spell you have to try to keep them alive. Pretty much a w/mo will completely waste your energy and put all the other party members in danger of dying due to your heals recharging (after being spammed on the w/mo).

However, Desbreko does offer very good advice on covering your enchants like seed with other enchants, and sometimes that's what you have to end up doing and wasting a ton of energy on the w/mo tank. But when there's a huge mob, even covering with 3-4 enchants, they will all get FoC'd or shattered by the mobs in less than 2 seconds.

Most of the time, if I start running low on energy and aggro is getting through I just have to let the w/mo die quite simply because it's pointless to heal him. I choose the next available frontline player, hopefully a n/me or e/me (anything but /mo) and throw prot spirit + seed/or breeze on them and use them as the tank. I've saved quite a few messes that way if the caster is either clever enough to know he can tank w/ prot spirit on him (rarely), or if they are just too dumb to run (much more common lol).

And while I've completed many runs with w/mo's (maybe 10-15 i think), most monks just inwardly groan when they see one in a party. As I only go with pugs, being guildless has it's benefits i suppose, you don't often have much choice in tanks, but I'd pick any character over a non w/mo any day.

Of course this doesn't mean I haven't met the occassional stellar w/mo tank who knows what they're doing. I think I'e encountered a total of 2, and they have surprised me w/ their abilities. They usually tend to be almost pure stance tanks, running gladiators defense and bonetti's among others. They can defend themselves.. until their stances run out or they're out of energy, then they are in big trouble. But at least by then the enemy might be close to dead.

I've met some pretty good W/E's using obsidian flesh as well.
W/N's are not recommended in parties using SS necros.
Also have had some excellent W/Me tanks using physical resistance or elemental resistence.
W/R seems a bit pointless unless they're using throw dirt.

but as a general rule, w/mo tanks will go down the fastest simply because monks can't do much for them when things go bad. you can only spam 5 energy heals for so long and so fast, even w/ a 20/20 icon.


oh, and please people, please refrain from using enchants around the dreamriders. i've seen monks repeatedly enchant a poor war tanking webs+riders. i've also been killed by a well meaning necro w/ BR of all things.
breeze, prot spirit, seed are all enchants. So are auras, blood ritual, Bip, IW, etc etc. Do your monks a favor and don't give the enemy free 105 damage hits!

Skuld

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

W/Me can use inspired hex too

W/Mo is a really stupid idea, there is no good reason for it, none at all

Tijger

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
You never ever ever EVER make your Warrior have a secondary profession a monk. Fingers of Chaos removes enchantments when they attack a Monk Primary/Secondary!
Yeah so? I dont see your point here. Monk secondary is quite useful, not taking any enchantments with you into the new UW also is quite useful.

What kind of advice is this? Kindergarten GW? As for the TS, his build is seriously flawed imho but saying 'Monk seconday is bad' is equally silly.

Actually, this whole thread is silly, anyone who doesnt know that taking stances for a warrior is vital in new UW shouldnt be going there.

The only sure fire way to make it in new UW is to go with a TEAM, btw, builds are secondary to that.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

Led a Barrage/pet group last night with my ranger. 5 rangers w/pets, 1 MM, 1 Orders and one healer. Our monk error 7'd between maps 2&3, which slowed us down a little, but we still finished in about 1:10. Last two maps with no monk, was pretty cool.

Have done it in 50 minutes with this build, but I was the MM at the time and had a great pug.

Linsys

Linsys

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Afk Mac N Cheeze Dun [LOOL]

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijger
Yeah so? I dont see your point here. Monk secondary is quite useful, not taking any enchantments with you into the new UW also is quite useful.

What kind of advice is this? Kindergarten GW? As for the TS, his build is seriously flawed imho but saying 'Monk seconday is bad' is equally silly.

Actually, this whole thread is silly, anyone who doesnt know that taking stances for a warrior is vital in new UW shouldnt be going there.

The only sure fire way to make it in new UW is to go with a TEAM, btw, builds are secondary to that.

WOW, you didn't read the thread either... I guess you should tell me a HEAL monk build which is EFFECTIVE and doesn't require the use of a battery which DOES NOT USE enchantments?

WE ARE NOT talking about the warriors putting enchantments on them selves.. DO YOU realize Healing Seed, Healing Breese, Healing Hands, Prot Spirit are ALL ENCHANTMENTS?

Do you NOT realize that if the Warrior is a W/Mo then I (as a monk) can NOT use any of these spells?


I agree saying monk secondary is silly, because the proper statement is "Bringing a Monk Secondary Into Tombs Is Just STUPID".

This thread isn't about a warrior taking stances, this is about the Fingers Of Chaos striping Monk Enchantments off of a monk.. if the warrior is a W/Mo then the Healing Monks can NOT use any enchantments..

I can't stand people who NEVER have played a monk and HAVE no clue how to play a monk are trying to offer advice here... I'm soo done with this thread because of the stupid comments found inside..

Dwimmerlaik

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

LLJK

A/R

First off, i didn't read the entire thread.

Second off, i didn't read it all because the OP listed Mo as the secondary for every class simply for Rebirth. While Rebirth *is* nice, you're effectively gimping yourselves. I could see the logic in a R/Mo (bring Judge's Insight for extreme shits n' giggles), a Me/Mo, and possibly an E/Mo. Otherwise, no. Necromancers benefit too much from an Me secondary, Warriors (as stated) shouldn't be Mo due to the enchannt stripping.

Tijger

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsys
WOW, you didn't read the thread either... I guess you should tell me a HEAL monk build which is EFFECTIVE and doesn't require the use of a battery which DOES NOT USE enchantments?
Mine, I guess.

Quote:
WE ARE NOT talking about the warriors putting enchantments on them selves.. DO YOU realize Healing Seed, Healing Breese, Healing Hands, Prot Spirit are ALL ENCHANTMENTS?
Yes I do. Your point being? Some of those actually work btw.

Quote:
Do you NOT realize that if the Warrior is a W/Mo then I (as a monk) can NOT use any of these spells?
Total nonsense.

Quote:
I agree saying monk secondary is silly, because the proper statement is "Bringing a Monk Secondary Into Tombs Is Just STUPID".

This thread isn't about a warrior taking stances, this is about the Fingers Of Chaos striping Monk Enchantments off of a monk.. if the warrior is a W/Mo then the Healing Monks can NOT use any enchantments..
Again, total nonsense.

Quote:
I can't stand people who NEVER have played a monk and HAVE no clue how to play a monk are trying to offer advice here... I'm soo done with this thread because of the stupid comments found inside..
More nonsense and idiotic assumptions, I've logged over a 1000 hours as a monk, about 600 as a warrior and the rest (2K plus) as a ranger.
On an 8 man team of regulars we take 2 monks, one mainly prot, one mainly heal and we have nary a death.

We hardly ever take a battery necro because we dont need one, our monks are able to heal without it just fine.

But hey, if you know better, fine with me

Marodac Evilbane

Marodac Evilbane

Site Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2005

The Netherlands

Rite of Passage

E/Mo

We just send in our tank with spellbreaker cast on him^^ We also have a little mes that casts energy surge, cry of frustration everyonce in a while.

While I agree that removing enchantments can be annoying, as long as they only attack our tank the nukers can nuke and the monks can heal the tank with Word (the ones without spellbreaker), other and orison if needed. All are not affected at all.

Rebirth is nice indeed to have when some things go bad, but when you keep the agroo right it should not be a problem. And should someone die, the rezmer will res. Should the mes die, either a monk or a dedicated player should res. I prefer a non monk ressing, but sometimes the monk can have time too.

MrGuru101

MrGuru101

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Wow whatever happend to responding with kind criticism. I stated in my original post that these are the build I use because they work every time I use them and they're easy. The post was meant to help people having trouble with the NEW UW, not for people to rip on me about how I suck for having Monk secondaries. My monks usually have no trouble healing me when I'm the warrior. Basically, if you're not having trouble with the NEW UW, then why did you read this anyways? Probably just to rip on me...Get a life.

Linsys

Linsys

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Afk Mac N Cheeze Dun [LOOL]

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijger
Mine, I guess.



Yes I do. Your point being? Some of those actually work btw.



Total nonsense.



Again, total nonsense.



More nonsense and idiotic assumptions, I've logged over a 1000 hours as a monk, about 600 as a warrior and the rest (2K plus) as a ranger.
On an 8 man team of regulars we take 2 monks, one mainly prot, one mainly heal and we have nary a death.

We hardly ever take a battery necro because we dont need one, our monks are able to heal without it just fine.

But hey, if you know better, fine with me

So you must have no clue what the Fingers Of Chaos does? Because from your post you like I said have NO clue... good for your 1,000 hours... Tombs hasn't been arround for your 1,000 hours... you might want to keep your post in the context of this thread...

I would pay you 100k just to watch your Seed NOT be striped by the Fingers Of Chaos on a W/Mo...

I would pay you 200k just to see how your prot monk keeps a W/Mo enchanted inside of Tombs... please prove me wrong.. please show me oh master how you can keep these W/mo enchanted..

Deathqueen

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

By your analogy, I am as effective a bicycle rider as Lance Armstrong. We both turn the peddles and get to our destination.


Wrong! Because you didn't win the Tour De France. (smile) Bad analogy. Now if you could win the Tour De France with say one leg, yep, you would be just as effective as ole Lance. (smile)

Also some of you guys are hilarious, you think everyone should play exactly as you do, well guess what, we don't and we do just fine. I left PVP because of arses like that and I'm certainly not going to be influenced by a few pre-teens for PVE. I get plenty of invites for Tombs and I have all the warrior weapons and shield now. So, obviously the W/Mo is EFFECTIVE, blocking was my most important job and I did it well. I died twice in four times through it and saved my team twice so that's pretty darn efficient whether you like it or not. Being a great blocker makes the monks job easier, but, in the interest of challenge nothing should be so easy, especially Tombs. (smile)

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

An effective W/Mo with only Rebirth for a monk skill will be even more effective as a W/Me with the same attributes and skills. (Apart from Rebirth of course.)

Having said that, I've ran the tombs as a healer dozens of times now, and I have little trouble with W/Mos, as long as they play well. I just switch a few skills and I'm good to go. The only thing I dislike is having W/Mos mixed with warriors having different secondaries, because either of my setups (enchantment heavy vs. enchantment light) isn't perfect to deal with that situation.

I can see how prot monks would have bigger issues than healers though.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

Can we stop the nonesense, else a mod go-thread-a-closing?

fiery

fiery

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2005

maryland

InYurFace Gaming [IYF]

R/

barrage way seems the fastest and easiet mass production of rangers now ^^

SisterMercy

SisterMercy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sisters of Mercy

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Then this is obviously bugged, because I'm playing a N/Me and Fingers strips Channeling.

darkMishkin

darkMishkin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterMercy
Then this is obviously bugged, because I'm playing a N/Me and Fingers strips Channeling.
Are you sure its not getting stripped by some other means?

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkMishkin
Are you sure its not getting stripped by some other means?
Remember the bane rider ghost thingies use shatter enchantment. That could be it.

neoteo

neoteo

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Macau

www.exilesofdarksteel.com

E/

the build from the first post is reproved by shatter 100 dmg to enchantements
and cry of frustation to nuker

MrGuru101

MrGuru101

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linsys
I also have a hard time believing you can clear UW in 45 minutes and die 1-3 times... my guild can clear "Tombs" with NO One dying.. and it takes about 60 min.. we have cleared it over 15 times..
Simply because we aggro bigger groups than you. Instead of aggroing 1 group, we aggro 2 or 3 to save time, if someone dies, they'll be resurected. But since my builds seem to suck so bad, this can't be possible can it?

Linsys

Linsys

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Afk Mac N Cheeze Dun [LOOL]

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGuru101
Simply because we aggro bigger groups than you. Instead of aggroing 1 group, we aggro 2 or 3 to save time, if someone dies, they'll be resurected. But since my builds seem to suck so bad, this can't be possible can it?

Sure can't... I don't belive u can take 3 groups with a W/Mo...

SisterMercy

SisterMercy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sisters of Mercy

OK, I just got talked into doing my first stint as an "Orders" Necro in PVP Tombs (the new rage), and I'm not impressed. Nor was anyone else, I'd guess.

So what is this -- I'm way back with no enemies in my aggro circle and I'm still too close (aside from two admitted early oversteps which were fortunately not costly)? I understand the theory, OotV and OoP can give extra punch and health to everyone in the party, minions and pets included, but if I'm that far back, aren't they too far out of range to get any benefit?

BBoy_Manchild

BBoy_Manchild

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

dayton ohio

N/Mo

and the chained souls use rend enchantments, which is a pretty funny if you have an idiot spamming monk enchants cause the chained soul kills himself

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

No build = not a valid thread. This is the wrong forum anyway. Closed.