Do You Need to Be A Monk Secondary to be an effective MM?

It's true. You can out-heal their degen in perpetuity. Horrors/Fiends have 440hp, and at max degen lose 20hp/sec, which means they'll last 22 seconds at max degen. Now, BotM+HA heals for 222hp, so about every ten seconds you need to run a BotM+HA cycle. Use OoB for energy management. Thanks!
I have to try it out!
The reason I doubted it was that in another thread, long ago, someone claimed that minions were not limited to a max degen of -10 (20hp/s). They would by time get higher and higher degen -11....-20....-54 etc, and thus limit perpetual minion armies. This was then discussed as a way to simulate enhanced corpse rottening as well as provide game balance.

I have after that never bothered much with getting huge armies, 10-20 seem to be rather sufficient number most times.

regards,
Cloudbunny

but i have to ask whats the point in keeping minions going that long? it seems like it would make you almost useless in an actual group when you're trying to focus on keeping any minions alive that long. long distances without battles would require frequent stops and you'd have to be up on the front lines to keep your melee minions healthy in battle, which is a very dangerous place for a mm to be... No point at all, other than to say you can do it. It's not an actual combat option. However, on another side note, minions earn experience and if you can keep one alive long enough, they can level up.

One day someone will post a screenshot of a level 20 fiend...

If you're really determined, N/Mo can keep a minion alive forever. It's not really practical, but it can be done. ~5min

~5min I don't understand what you're saying.

For all that you can keep a minnion alive in perpetuity(never tried this but i guess if you can heal faster then the -10 degen cap then sure) I've found that at around 5 min and that's a big upper end estimation that the next time you go into battle and actually have to kite/raise more minnions/heal you'll lose those minnions so as a max I would say 5min is the length of time at which your minnions for all intense and purposes can be kept alive. Try it in SF or Thristy...have a friend target a specific minnion and do your thing. Have them time how long it takes for that minnion to die...it's usually anywhere from 3 to 5min depending if its getting the HA and BotM and/or what damage it's taking. Fiends tend to last a little longer in this reguard as they stay at range and tend to spread out sometimes. Yea, yea, yea. I agreed completely. I was just saying it CAN be done. It's a gimmik, NOT a combat option.

I wanna use my N/Me (for dual UW farming) to MM. I heard somewhere that people use pure DM and SR. Is this possible?

It's cuz i dont wanna changed secondary professions each time i decided to switch from SS to MM I use my N/Me as a MM, and it works just fine. Max Death, Verata's and BotM keeps the minions alive long enough for me, plus I use Arcane Echo to pump out minions faster than a N/Mo can. Arcane Echo is also very handy for copying any other spell, such as Deathly Swarm or Verata's. I however have 9 points in Blood to utilize Offering of Blood for when I need an energy boost.

lol your echoing minions?

you are aware there is more than one minion razing spell correct?

even with just two by the time I finish casting the second the first has already recharged... meaing I can set and spam two minion spells as long as there are corpses..


your eching cost you what 15 ene? thats 15 ene for a spell to copy a spell you already HAVE three of..

fiends
horrors
minions..

with the exception of range and melee there isnt a great deal of difference AKA in the general scheme of things one minion is no better than any other..

depending on the job you need to accomplish decides what minions work better than say another.. even then the difference is minimal at best..

echoing a minion spell is redundancy at its worst... Well, IMO spending 25 points for 2 weaker minions is more of a waste than echoing fiends or horrors, unless you plan on Death Nova bombs (which I don't, minioning is micromanagement enough without attempting to get Death Nova on the ones about to die).
Also, I echo more than just undead-raising spells. I love echoing Deathly Swarm just before combat begins. That ensures that enemies die fast, and about the time that echo runs out and recharges, it's time to start raising minions - so I will usually echo fiends and get 2 of those off, then I usually need energy so I hit OoB.

I use my N/Me as a MM, and it works just fine. Max Death, Verata's and BotM keeps the minions alive long enough for me, plus I use Arcane Echo to pump out minions faster than a N/Mo can. Arcane Echo is also very handy for copying any other spell, such as Deathly Swarm or Verata's. I however have 9 points in Blood to utilize Offering of Blood for when I need an energy boost. You really think you pump out faster then a N/MO? I think it's more or less the same. It all depends how fast your enemies die. Besides you can cast echo + horrors/fiends which is the same as casting say Horrors + Fiends except I don't waste a skill slot and energy (15) casting arcane echo.

N/ME make great echo ss necros. That's their specialty not MM. I tried both so it's not like I'm making things up. Besides if you can think of a good MM build 99% of the time it's already been tried and tested. People stick with what works best hence why we see alot more N/MO (mm) then any other combo. Statistically I'm telling the truth.

Ive given up my n/r stance..

having done countless runs as a n/mo in topk and SF now.. I can say wihtout hesitation..

n/mo and heal area is easily the best..

In monking on the topk runs nothing sucks more than having to heal your two necros all the time when they dont take any damage.. this leaves your team open for a spike and you recharging a spell that could be useful...

heal area keeps a MM self sufficient... anything else just cant keep up the cast time on troll and healing spring and the problem with haivng to stay in the spring to get any benifit makes a n/r lag behind and slow the whole team.. WITH having degen on minions almost constantly even with veritas going the degen will overwhelm your ability to heal them causeing you to LOOSE more minions because your not moving with purpose to the next area to make more..

the key Ive found is being efficient to the point of over doing it...

botm and veritas cast times cant be avoided so dont add more to your overall cast times and increase the time people wait on you to show up for the next mob fight... heal area is instant and spammable.. just move forward a bit and poof.. healed minions... when you have a " potty break" and your setting there with the orders nec whos also a n/mo and has heal area you can keep your entire army alive long enough for everyone but you to goto the bathroom and get a soda... and they will still live long enough to block efectively enough for more monsters to die and you make more minons... I'm glad you finally went out and tested the N/MO for yourself. 90% (not exact figure) of all MM's prefer N/MO for a reason. They can't ALL be wrong.

Well, IMO spending 25 points for 2 weaker minions is more of a waste than echoing fiends or horrors, unless you plan on Death Nova bombs (which I don't, minioning is micromanagement enough without attempting to get Death Nova on the ones about to die).
Also, I echo more than just undead-raising spells. I love echoing Deathly Swarm just before combat begins. That ensures that enemies die fast, and about the time that echo runs out and recharges, it's time to start raising minions - so I will usually echo fiends and get 2 of those off, then I usually need energy so I hit OoB.
funny that... I never need ene...

ever..

not ever....

why? well for example in topk those two lvl 13 minions you so fondly bashed both die and with my pips of regen I MAKE back ene....

with 12 soulreaping thats 24 ene when they die... BUT in order to die something is attacking them and that somthing ISNT attacking my party of rangers.... while that something is busy working over those mininonshis buddies are dieing and created more corpses for another two minions..

so those two minions cost me a grand total of ONE ene to cast them knowing im getting a return of 24 ene from their death..

this allows me to spam constantly horrors and minions.. in the overall I never loose more than 3 ene from casting and reaping.. simply due to not casting other spells that have nothing to do with my job...

and the job of a Minion Master would be to make Minions constantly without fail...

simple aint it.
complicating it by spells that dont benifit the basic job more than they damage it seems counter to the job doesnt it?

for example..

If I take my minion/horror n/mo into topk and we each get an equal number of corpses I will create a larger army without anyones aid and never require any healing or help from anyone else to do my job..

with the build your proposing you will have a mass of fiends and a few horrors.. since you have no way of healing yourself to keep them up from point A to point B you require a monk to be within bubble range to heal your sacrificing.. effectively slowing you down further and your entire team suffers for it..

fiends also dont melee fight which means once a monster breaks past your couple horrors its free to choose a juicy target .... with fiends they are within the SAME range as your five rangers.... the monster can now get to your primary damage dealers MUCH more effectively..

since the favorable winds doesnt help fiends any the BULK of the teams preparation and the orders included dont add to your killing power with your fiends to make you even equal to ONE ranger whose barraging under spirits and orders.. and you effectively now have risked a damage dealer who does theyre job by you not providing a massive wall of meat to block out that monster..



make sense now?

minion/horror build =provide a mass blocking wall doing damage and taking damage while not risking anyone in the party.. being self sufficient to keep from hampering others.. with the TWO minions your ene is guaranteed...

with a 25 cast fiend who doesnt block you LOOSE half the cast cost of that minion..

why? if you job is to block and protect via massive numbers dont impede your job because you want to be different...

if your doing ORO of course you dont need blockers.. you got a war with a gear in hand.. so ranged attacks are a good idea..

(truth be told I still take minions.. the turn around on ene helps much more than hinders.. especially when Im moving from one mob to another.. at lvl 13 they degen faster providing me with plenty energy to keep my fiends alive til the next mob..)